Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Oh Butch, I do love ya, but they have you, don't they? We'll have to agree to disagree on the politics. There are all kinds of points in your reply that we could argue till the cows come home, but there are 2 things that can ruin a relationship faster than anything - and that's politics and religion. And my relationship with you is important to me. So we'll let this one go. Stay safe. Leela - " Butch Owen " <butchbsi Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:22 AM OT: Iraq ** My Heart on the Line > Hey Leela, > > > Hey Butch, > > Hope all is well for you over in Turkey. > > Thankee m'am .. its fine now. The Turks are playing some games .. the > politicos are trying to kiss Arab butt and set themselves up as a leader > in the region .. and the military is concerned about not allowing the > USA to establish a Northern Front in Iraq from Turkey because they fear > US control of the area .. they want to maintain a buffer zone there as > they are a bit paranoid about the establishment of a Kurdistan. > > > I normally don't comment too much, but I have to put my 2 cents in here. > > Go for it .. and I couldn't resist replying. ;-p > > > As an American who also lived through the time of Viet Nam, and actively, > > noisily, civil-disobedience(ly) protested against that war, I can say this: > > To all who served in that war, or any other to defend or protect our > > nation - Thank You. Even though I hated the war, I didn't hate the > > soldier. Even though our reasons for being in VN were confused and muddled, > > the soldiers who served there were always the bastions of freedom. > > Thankee m'am .. though there are some who are still confused over > exactly what the hell they were protesting. > > > They served their country without question, and it brings me to tears > > of gratitude. > > Good to hear that. > > > However, the honor and dignity of those soldiers, however brightly it shown, > > does not diminish the indignity and shame of the choices their government > > made, and, employed them to fulfill. The soldier is *not* the government. > > He only serves that government in the best and only way he can. > > In truth, the political administration turned a noble cause into a > political ballgame .. it was not a dishonorable venture from the first. > My first tour in the 'Nam was in 1963 and I have seen pregnant women's > bellies ripped open because they were teachers .. part of the government > they were. And village chiefs staked out with eyelids ripped off so > they couldn't close their eyes while watching their wife and female > children being raped by a platoon of VC .. before throats were cut. So > it was not always a political game. I was young an impressionable and > it flat pissed me off. Enough for me to volunteer for multiple tours. > > > It is the government that was the target of the protest then, and > > again, is now. As Americans, we have to ask ourselves hard questions, > > stripped of the patriotic fervor of hearth and home. We have to force > > ourselves to see the world with a clear eye, unclouded by familial > > pasts. > > I think I can look at the present situation without emotion .. without > any shred of patriotism. Its a matter of logical necessity to me. > > > It is said that " reality is relative " , and what I see may not be a > > shared reality with you. What I see, again, as in the late 60's, our > > finest minds embodied in our young people, being shipped off to a > > foreign war that no one can understand. > > We rarely send old men with weak minds to war .. and I disagree with you > on folks not understanding the reason. Recent polls show a great amount > of support for the war .. those opposed are in the minority. > > > Yesterday, our enemy was Osama bin Laden. That sob killed 3000 in > > NYC, but suddenly, he is not the target anymore; it is Hussein. > > Not so methinks. Osama Yo Mama is still a target .. but he is also a > representational figurehead of a system of international Islamic > terrorism that is recognized as being an enemy of the west and the east. > > Osama is not a governmental leader .. though he has an international > network that exists because of the support of governments. Saddam is a > much easier target and we accomplish more than one mission by taking him > out of power. Technically, governments can only declare war on other > governments. There are many international laws in this regard. > > > We let bin Laden slip away by following a cell phone transmission > > that the CIA had to have known was not in bin Laden's hand. Why? > > I don't see where that has a bearing on the issue of Iraq. But I think > the reason is because we are not perfect. Mistakes are made with the > best laid plans .. Monday morning quarterbacks always find them too. > > >Saddam Hussein has shamefully murdered his own people, the Kurds. But > >so have many other countries that the United States has not gone after. > > True .. but its a matter of relativity .. which ones are dangerous to US > now .. not to their own people. We cannot take on all the evil in the > world at one time .. the US is capable of fighting but 2.5 wars on 2.5 > fronts at one time. > > > Korea and Pakistan (where bin Laden is being harbored) have nuclear > > war capabilities, as probably does Libya, but we haven't gone to war > > with them. > > North Korea will/must change .. and they can be handled by Russia/China > for the time being. Pakistan will have their day in the barrel but we > must take on the enemies in some order of priority .. and we do have a > supporter in Pakistan .. even though he is not in total control. That > country is just another haven for bad guys ... but look at what they > found in the mosque in London. Libya is a castrated non-player now. We > have far more to fear from Saudi Arabia. > > >It would seem to me, and many others, that Pakistan would be a much > > more likely target for our anger than Iraq. > > Immediate threat is the difference .. Clear and Present Danger is the > technical term approved by the Senate Intelligence Committee. And by > the way, both parties who sit on that committee understand the reasons > why Iraq is a danger NOW. > > > Pakistan is giving shelter to the man who nearly toppled the world, > > What happened in New York and D.C. came a long way from toppling the > world .. but it was a wake up call. I will GAR-AN-TEE that it is not > impossible for a well-led, well planned and well-financed fundamentalist > organization to make 9-11 look like a friggin picnic !! > > > but we concentrate on a nation that has done nothing in the last 12 > > years to incur even our attention? > > Nobody is concentrating on a nation .. it is a regime that is getting > the attention. And to say they have done nothing for the past 12 years > is a mistake .. a big mistake. But its unlikely that all the intel that > is available to the intel community will be made public for a long time > due to the likelihood of compromising sources and getting throats cut. > > > Something is wrong with that picture. > > Right .. but if you look at it differently, you will see a different > picture .. maybe. ;-p > > > Our President openly admitted that this was a family affair. > > That might be a little extreme .. and a bit of twisted propaganda. I > don't trust any politician .. Rumsfeld is cool but he will go along with > the flow .. Powell is not a right winger nor is he a blind supporter of > Bush. Powell has moved closer to a hawkish status than I supposed he > would and I have the utmost confidence that he's justified in doing so. > > > It is opinion that he is using the military of the United States to > > exact revenge for a past familial defeat. It is my opinion that he is > > using this conflict to also divert our national attention away from > > our dire domestic problems. > > IF this is true .. and I don't believe it is .. not at all .. then the > USA is lost because we have two political parties and a cabinet and lots > of what I KNOW are honorable and ethical professional military leaders > who are idiots .. smoking wacky tobakie and sticking their heads in > their butts while blindly following a madman. So all is lost. > > > Our national pride, our youth, is being used as nothing more than > > " hit-men " to avenge the past. > > I think this sounds very partisan .. and very emotional. :-P > > > I cannot now, as I could not then, quietly abide this government > > sending out sons and daughters to fight and die so that I and my > > neighbors won't think of all the problems we have here at home. > > Who could tolerate that? Certainly not ALL the members of Congress and > the military system. > > > I cannot sit quietly while a trumped-up war is waged to defend the > > honor of someone's daddy. > > I couldn't either. And glad we are not asked to. But this is not, in > my opinion, a trumped-up war. If one believes that war is only advised > when one's territorial integrity is breached .. or its citizens are put > in harm's way .. then even they have to admit that we have justification > to take action. Also glad I am that we can pee and moan cause if we > lived in Iraq we would .. as a minimum .. lose our eyes and tongue. > > > Our sons and daughters deserve better than that. And so do we. > > Sure they do .. and we do too .. and I'm glad we are not being asked or > expected to be stupid enough to tolerate such a situation. > > > Leela > > Y'all keep smiling, Butch > > How To Make Rose Petal Jam - Step By Step Instructions > http://www.av-at.com/stuff/rosejam.html > > To Un send a blank e-mail to: - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Hey Leela, > Hey Butch, > Hope all is well for you over in Turkey. Thankee m'am .. its fine now. The Turks are playing some games .. the politicos are trying to kiss Arab butt and set themselves up as a leader in the region .. and the military is concerned about not allowing the USA to establish a Northern Front in Iraq from Turkey because they fear US control of the area .. they want to maintain a buffer zone there as they are a bit paranoid about the establishment of a Kurdistan. > I normally don't comment too much, but I have to put my 2 cents in here. Go for it .. and I couldn't resist replying. ;-p > As an American who also lived through the time of Viet Nam, and actively, > noisily, civil-disobedience(ly) protested against that war, I can say this: > To all who served in that war, or any other to defend or protect our > nation - Thank You. Even though I hated the war, I didn't hate the > soldier. Even though our reasons for being in VN were confused and muddled, > the soldiers who served there were always the bastions of freedom. Thankee m'am .. though there are some who are still confused over exactly what the hell they were protesting. > They served their country without question, and it brings me to tears > of gratitude. Good to hear that. > However, the honor and dignity of those soldiers, however brightly it shown, > does not diminish the indignity and shame of the choices their government > made, and, employed them to fulfill. The soldier is *not* the government. > He only serves that government in the best and only way he can. In truth, the political administration turned a noble cause into a political ballgame .. it was not a dishonorable venture from the first. My first tour in the 'Nam was in 1963 and I have seen pregnant women's bellies ripped open because they were teachers .. part of the government they were. And village chiefs staked out with eyelids ripped off so they couldn't close their eyes while watching their wife and female children being raped by a platoon of VC .. before throats were cut. So it was not always a political game. I was young an impressionable and it flat pissed me off. Enough for me to volunteer for multiple tours. > It is the government that was the target of the protest then, and > again, is now. As Americans, we have to ask ourselves hard questions, > stripped of the patriotic fervor of hearth and home. We have to force > ourselves to see the world with a clear eye, unclouded by familial > pasts. I think I can look at the present situation without emotion .. without any shred of patriotism. Its a matter of logical necessity to me. > It is said that " reality is relative " , and what I see may not be a > shared reality with you. What I see, again, as in the late 60's, our > finest minds embodied in our young people, being shipped off to a > foreign war that no one can understand. We rarely send old men with weak minds to war .. and I disagree with you on folks not understanding the reason. Recent polls show a great amount of support for the war .. those opposed are in the minority. > Yesterday, our enemy was Osama bin Laden. That sob killed 3000 in > NYC, but suddenly, he is not the target anymore; it is Hussein. Not so methinks. Osama Yo Mama is still a target .. but he is also a representational figurehead of a system of international Islamic terrorism that is recognized as being an enemy of the west and the east. Osama is not a governmental leader .. though he has an international network that exists because of the support of governments. Saddam is a much easier target and we accomplish more than one mission by taking him out of power. Technically, governments can only declare war on other governments. There are many international laws in this regard. > We let bin Laden slip away by following a cell phone transmission > that the CIA had to have known was not in bin Laden's hand. Why? I don't see where that has a bearing on the issue of Iraq. But I think the reason is because we are not perfect. Mistakes are made with the best laid plans .. Monday morning quarterbacks always find them too. >Saddam Hussein has shamefully murdered his own people, the Kurds. But >so have many other countries that the United States has not gone after. True .. but its a matter of relativity .. which ones are dangerous to US now .. not to their own people. We cannot take on all the evil in the world at one time .. the US is capable of fighting but 2.5 wars on 2.5 fronts at one time. > Korea and Pakistan (where bin Laden is being harbored) have nuclear > war capabilities, as probably does Libya, but we haven't gone to war > with them. North Korea will/must change .. and they can be handled by Russia/China for the time being. Pakistan will have their day in the barrel but we must take on the enemies in some order of priority .. and we do have a supporter in Pakistan .. even though he is not in total control. That country is just another haven for bad guys ... but look at what they found in the mosque in London. Libya is a castrated non-player now. We have far more to fear from Saudi Arabia. >It would seem to me, and many others, that Pakistan would be a much > more likely target for our anger than Iraq. Immediate threat is the difference .. Clear and Present Danger is the technical term approved by the Senate Intelligence Committee. And by the way, both parties who sit on that committee understand the reasons why Iraq is a danger NOW. > Pakistan is giving shelter to the man who nearly toppled the world, What happened in New York and D.C. came a long way from toppling the world .. but it was a wake up call. I will GAR-AN-TEE that it is not impossible for a well-led, well planned and well-financed fundamentalist organization to make 9-11 look like a friggin picnic !! > but we concentrate on a nation that has done nothing in the last 12 > years to incur even our attention? Nobody is concentrating on a nation .. it is a regime that is getting the attention. And to say they have done nothing for the past 12 years is a mistake .. a big mistake. But its unlikely that all the intel that is available to the intel community will be made public for a long time due to the likelihood of compromising sources and getting throats cut. > Something is wrong with that picture. Right .. but if you look at it differently, you will see a different picture .. maybe. ;-p > Our President openly admitted that this was a family affair. That might be a little extreme .. and a bit of twisted propaganda. I don't trust any politician .. Rumsfeld is cool but he will go along with the flow .. Powell is not a right winger nor is he a blind supporter of Bush. Powell has moved closer to a hawkish status than I supposed he would and I have the utmost confidence that he's justified in doing so. > It is opinion that he is using the military of the United States to > exact revenge for a past familial defeat. It is my opinion that he is > using this conflict to also divert our national attention away from > our dire domestic problems. IF this is true .. and I don't believe it is .. not at all .. then the USA is lost because we have two political parties and a cabinet and lots of what I KNOW are honorable and ethical professional military leaders who are idiots .. smoking wacky tobakie and sticking their heads in their butts while blindly following a madman. So all is lost. > Our national pride, our youth, is being used as nothing more than > " hit-men " to avenge the past. I think this sounds very partisan .. and very emotional. :-P > I cannot now, as I could not then, quietly abide this government > sending out sons and daughters to fight and die so that I and my > neighbors won't think of all the problems we have here at home. Who could tolerate that? Certainly not ALL the members of Congress and the military system. > I cannot sit quietly while a trumped-up war is waged to defend the > honor of someone's daddy. I couldn't either. And glad we are not asked to. But this is not, in my opinion, a trumped-up war. If one believes that war is only advised when one's territorial integrity is breached .. or its citizens are put in harm's way .. then even they have to admit that we have justification to take action. Also glad I am that we can pee and moan cause if we lived in Iraq we would .. as a minimum .. lose our eyes and tongue. > Our sons and daughters deserve better than that. And so do we. Sure they do .. and we do too .. and I'm glad we are not being asked or expected to be stupid enough to tolerate such a situation. > Leela Y'all keep smiling, Butch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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