Statistics

[Guest guest]

, " Emmanuel Segmen "

<susegmen@i...> wrote:

> Barry,

>

> I would support your thesis. It's profoundly cheaper to pay out of

pocket for acupuncture than it is for even the cheapest health care

insurance. If any one feels otherwise, please, please direct me to

the cheaper healthcare insurance. Mine is absolutely minimal group

insurance and is $384 every 2 months. It only covers major medical

and nothing else. I see a good MD buddy for blood work when I want

it and pay out of pocket.

 

This is an outrageous example… For 1) There are only a few 's

out there that are going to forgo any kind of healthcare insurance to

opt for some acupuncture treatments. This is definitely not the

mainstream thinking and IMO a bit tilted. Acupuncture will not save

your life when you are rushed to the hospital after a car accident.

And I see you, Emmanuel, have Health insurance, why don't you give it

up and rely on out-of-pocket Chinese medicine for your health?

Certain areas will have these out-side-the box people, santa cruz,

boulder, and barry don't you like in Ashville?

2) The average person who just can't afford health insurance is

99.9% of the time not going to be seeking out acupuncture to deal

with there ailments. These people, usually low-income, are going to

be going to the drug-store and buying a remedy for $8.00. They are

not going to pay $120.00 for an initial consultation then want to

hear it will probably take 4-6 treatments to get results adding up to

around a minimum of $400. I just don't think CM is set up in any way

to service people that don't have some surplus of $$$, or are just

philosophically outside the system enough to give up basic emergency

health care.

I am trying to think of certain ailments that low-income people will

pay for. Maybe muscle-skeletal, because the results are somewhat

fast. But most minor things (colds, flues) will be dealt with by the

drugstore and most long-term ailments that need on-going treatment

seems questionable. These people might end up at the school clinics,

but not in our offices.

 

When would they start coming.

1) If they are seriously worried about there health condition

and have tried almost everything else, spending everything they have

on curing it… or

2) IMO, when the public eye `somehow' (probably with stats)

proves that there is some efficacy… A few posts ago, Z'ev (I think)

shouted out the need for the Andrew weil of CM to come forth

(something like that) – Why is A.W. so popular. He offers a

inexpensive solution (go to the health food store and buy a product)

to the western medical system that has been proven! If you have ever

heard him debate, he is always quoting stat after stat, and people

love it!

 

I do lump the middle class into the above because most of them have

no reason not to believe that Excedrin cold & flue is not going to

work. And most people that come in for long-term complaints are

coming why? Because a friend told them about it and they got some

help. But just as many people have friends that have told them that

they got help from chiros, cranial-sacral, and angel channeling. CM

is lumped into the `OTHER' and not seen as some profound amazing

system to the populous as a whole

 

 

There is statistically probably only a fraction of the population

(less than 1%) that have done CM – Most of these people that continue

to use it have money. I think it is a pipe-dream that somehow the

populous is going to suddenly knock down our doors… It hasn't

happened yet, so why would things suddenly change, especially without

some research. . I don't see us taking over the alternative field

because we are so great. Not at all, we have a niche with `some

people' and there are currently a lot of struggling CMers. So we

have courses like make $100,000 is one year. And what do they

recommend to do, stuff like standing in the aisle of a drugstore to

rope people in… As well as every marketing gimmick under the sun…

Come on… Should we have to do such a song and dance to get patients…

Well the truth is, we have too and that says enough for the state of

our profession to me….

 

I agree with Todd….

 

 

 

>

> The tens of millions of people who can not afford health insurance

are the most likely candidates for Chinese acupuncture.

 

Disagree!

 

 

 

> Actually most of my students fit into this category, and I direct

them as to where to find a local CM practitioner so they don't need

to suffer with the flu or other readily treatable malady.

 

Students are always poor, this is not a representation of the

population.

E – I just disagree.

 

-

[Guest guest]

As we know with one of the St. Johnswort studies, it was totally biased

and the intentions were malevolent. A German study was done by a

pharmaceutical company that bought out a company producing a St.

Johnswort product, measuring treatment of patients with major

depression by St. Johnswort. After the poor showing in the study, the

drug company apparently discontinued the product.

 

>>>>And this is my point. Do you want others to do the research. They are

already doing it. All it will take is a few very large and publicized studies to

turn around a trend in CAM therapy. We are now practicing in a society that

gives us the benefit without much good evidence. This same society still gives

much credence to so-called medical research. And again look at St Johns example

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

In the beginning of the last century, homeopathy was at a crossroads. The

Rockefellar commission decided to fund the majority of medical colleges because

they and the Carniges knew is was a profitably venture. It was not for the

concern of health in this country, but a major profit for themselves because if

you're sick, you will pay. The conciousness of Americans differs from

Europeans, notiably the French. The French want to understand the process and

Americans want to purchase it. I knew when I graduated from Acupuncture school

it would be constantly educating my patients to understand the process.

Concerning marketing, making a $100K a year is a valid attempt in giving tools

to acupuncturist to market themselves in a very competitive field of healthcare.

I feel Bob Flaws has his heart in the right place, but because of the immense

amount of time and energy and dedication understanding chinese medicine we

inherently feel blighted by the fact that we not only have to understand the

process but we have to sell it with little support from the established medical

community. I suspect that this is where our love and dedication comes in. The

love of practicing chinese medicine and helping people obtain tools and

knowledge. But with all this, why can't we do more? Why can we get to more?

When will be accepted? Because many of my patients come to me as the cure of

last resort. After surgery, after years of drug use, you know the scene. And

we all know what could have been done if they had come to us first.

 

K Kochek

-

Monday, November 17, 2003 3:42 AM

Re: Statistics

 

 

, " Kurt Kochek " <earthmed@m...>

wrote:

I don't see us isolated as a profession, but parallel to a whole movement that

is

gradually gaining momentum.

 

 

I wish I could agree but the rise of the SUV and the epidemic of obesity and

the war mongering have me really doubting that America is on the path of

redemption. I feel like we saw a blip of interest in alternative health

peaking

a little while ago, which has now actually dipped (partly, I believe, because

the

research has lagged). Meat and tobacco consumption are both fashionable

again as an example of this trend. I think we either need to infiltrate the

mainstream healthcare system and lock in our gains, so to speak or we will be

marginalized. There will be a small group of the faithful in any era, but I

see

no evidence that middle america is leaving the couch anytime soon.

 

Todd

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

By the way, if you are interested in a real eye opener regarding the how's and

why's of marketing in America the layman's jargon, try reading these two books:

Fast Food Nation and Culture Jam. They will give you some insight as to the

processes they use to hook new consumers in at younger and younger ages. A lot

of the marketing you see now was successfully developed by McDonald's and

Disney. The rest just followed their leads and eventually have improved on

them. Profit at all cost will have an all new meaning to you after reading

these books.

K Kochek

-

Monday, November 17, 2003 3:42 AM

Re: Statistics

 

 

, " Kurt Kochek " <earthmed@m...>

wrote:

I don't see us isolated as a profession, but parallel to a whole movement that

is

gradually gaining momentum.

 

 

I wish I could agree but the rise of the SUV and the epidemic of obesity and

the war mongering have me really doubting that America is on the path of

redemption. I feel like we saw a blip of interest in alternative health

peaking

a little while ago, which has now actually dipped (partly, I believe, because

the

research has lagged). Meat and tobacco consumption are both fashionable

again as an example of this trend. I think we either need to infiltrate the

mainstream healthcare system and lock in our gains, so to speak or we will be

marginalized. There will be a small group of the faithful in any era, but I

see

no evidence that middle america is leaving the couch anytime soon.

 

Todd

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Acupuncture treatment is the endogenous endorphins of the people.

 

-Wainwright

 

I absolutely love it!

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason

 

Easy, Big Guy. I learned to function like an accountant and only pay for major

medical insurance and pay for all the rest out of pocket. My major medical just

recently doubled in price, and yes Jason I may have to drop it. Yes, Jason, I

do rely and have relied on acupuncture for my main healthcare since I broke my

back in 1976. I looked at Western medicine for help and didn't like what I saw.

I also couldn't afford it. So I thank God for CM and Dr. Kang's tui na.

Overcoming a fractured vertebra and disc damage is a lot to ask of a paradigm

that I wasn't born into or that familiar with. But I'm running forest trails

and marathons today at 55 years of age, so I guess CM works well enough.

 

I'm sorry you are outraged by my suggestion that CM makes sense for those who

like me can't afford or wish not to pay for WM health insurance. I worked on a

project a couple of years ago with the notorious Howard Harrison to get public

funding to put LAcs into Central Valley healthcare clinics that are California

Community Clinics. He hired me in 1988 to do that for ACTCM, and I joined him

to try again on a larger scale. Like many things that Howard brainstorms, this

one did not work out. Year 2000 happened, Art Torres of the Democratic Party

was less forthcoming with funds, and the rest is history. The Fruitvale Clinic

in Oakland did get some benefit, but our grand scheme did not work out. I still

think it's a great idea.

 

At any rate, I'm personally willing to pay Nam Singh for classes and have him

come to my public institution to teach. My students are mostly poor African

American and Hispanic students from Oakland's flatlands. If I can't pay for

health insurance, it's clear that they can't. Merritt College is the home of

the Black Panthers, and everyone who works there takes on the volunteer spirit

of trying to make things work for the poorer communities in Oakland. It's with

that spirit that I've sent students to various CM practitioners as well as to

the Oakland and San Francisco schools of CM. These people can afford CM far

easier than they can afford WM ... especially considering that they can't afford

WM at all. They're poor, Jason. Flat out poor. For very little money they can

get at least some guidance, a bit of acupuncture ... and raw herbs are pretty

cheap compared to prescription medicine.

 

This is not an argument to your views, Jason. This is just what's happening

where I am ... where I work and live. I never had healthcare insurance even

when I was a medical student in the 1980s. I had to rely on CM. I've only

recently since 1992 had even major medical (not complete health insurance), and

now it looks like I'll be giving that up. There's no way I can budget for it.

 

But then ... is your post really about people " beating down your door " ? Or

finding a reliable alternative to pricey healthcare?

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

Monday, November 17, 2003 8:10 AM

Re: statistics

 

 

, " Emmanuel Segmen "

<susegmen@i...> wrote:

> Barry,

>

> I would support your thesis. It's profoundly cheaper to pay out of

pocket for acupuncture than it is for even the cheapest health care

insurance. If any one feels otherwise, please, please direct me to

the cheaper healthcare insurance. Mine is absolutely minimal group

insurance and is $384 every 2 months. It only covers major medical

and nothing else. I see a good MD buddy for blood work when I want

it and pay out of pocket.

 

This is an outrageous example. For 1) There are only a few 's

out there that are going to forgo any kind of healthcare insurance to

opt for some acupuncture treatments. This is definitely not the

mainstream thinking and IMO a bit tilted. Acupuncture will not save

your life when you are rushed to the hospital after a car accident.

And I see you, Emmanuel, have Health insurance, why don't you give it

up and rely on out-of-pocket Chinese medicine for your health?

Certain areas will have these out-side-the box people, santa cruz,

boulder, and barry don't you like in Ashville?

2) The average person who just can't afford health insurance is

99.9% of the time not going to be seeking out acupuncture to deal

with there ailments. These people, usually low-income, are going to

be going to the drug-store and buying a remedy for $8.00. They are

not going to pay $120.00 for an initial consultation then want to

hear it will probably take 4-6 treatments to get results adding up to

around a minimum of $400. I just don't think CM is set up in any way

to service people that don't have some surplus of $$$, or are just

philosophically outside the system enough to give up basic emergency

health care.

I am trying to think of certain ailments that low-income people will

pay for. Maybe muscle-skeletal, because the results are somewhat

fast. But most minor things (colds, flues) will be dealt with by the

drugstore and most long-term ailments that need on-going treatment

seems questionable. These people might end up at the school clinics,

but not in our offices.

 

When would they start coming.

1) If they are seriously worried about there health condition

and have tried almost everything else, spending everything they have

on curing it. or

2) IMO, when the public eye `somehow' (probably with stats)

proves that there is some efficacy. A few posts ago, Z'ev (I think)

shouted out the need for the Andrew weil of CM to come forth

(something like that) - Why is A.W. so popular. He offers a

inexpensive solution (go to the health food store and buy a product)

to the western medical system that has been proven! If you have ever

heard him debate, he is always quoting stat after stat, and people

love it!

 

I do lump the middle class into the above because most of them have

no reason not to believe that Excedrin cold & flue is not going to

work. And most people that come in for long-term complaints are

coming why? Because a friend told them about it and they got some

help. But just as many people have friends that have told them that

they got help from chiros, cranial-sacral, and angel channeling. CM

is lumped into the `OTHER' and not seen as some profound amazing

system to the populous as a whole

 

 

There is statistically probably only a fraction of the population

(less than 1%) that have done CM - Most of these people that continue

to use it have money. I think it is a pipe-dream that somehow the

populous is going to suddenly knock down our doors. It hasn't

happened yet, so why would things suddenly change, especially without

some research. . I don't see us taking over the alternative field

because we are so great. Not at all, we have a niche with `some

people' and there are currently a lot of struggling CMers. So we

have courses like make $100,000 is one year. And what do they

recommend to do, stuff like standing in the aisle of a drugstore to

rope people in. As well as every marketing gimmick under the sun.

Come on. Should we have to do such a song and dance to get patients.

Well the truth is, we have too and that says enough for the state of

our profession to me..

 

I agree with Todd..

 

 

 

>

> The tens of millions of people who can not afford health insurance

are the most likely candidates for Chinese acupuncture.

 

Disagree!

 

 

 

> Actually most of my students fit into this category, and I direct

them as to where to find a local CM practitioner so they don't need

to suffer with the flu or other readily treatable malady.

 

Students are always poor, this is not a representation of the

population.

E - I just disagree.

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>>>>And this is my point. Do you want others to do the research. They are

already doing it. All it will take is a few very large and publicized studies to

turn around a trend in CAM therapy. We are now practicing in a society that

gives us the benefit without much good evidence. This same society still gives

much credence to so-called medical research. And again look at St Johns example

Alon

 

Alon,

 

I agree ... this " is " the point. The FDA wants to create procedural guidelines

eventually in order to regulate CM. At least this is what Michael McGuffin of

AHPA was telling us in meetings for Chinese herbs over the past few years. The

time line is something like 10 years he figured. I haven't heard much about

this over the past year because it was eclipsed by concerns for cGMPs and the

Bioterrorism Act. I just registered with the FDA for this, and now my attention

has to turn to what Michael brought up before. I'm wondering where the FDA is

at regarding their work up for CM regulation? At any rate, I'm hoping as you

are also that CM remains in the hands of CM practitioners. Many of us disagree

regarding how to accomplish this. However, we are in agreement that this is the

goal.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

[Guest guest]

Perhaps we are confusing sales figures with interest. Sales in dollars has

decreased from sometime in the 90's. But why is this? Was it solely a fad.

I think not. I think that many people were going to their health food

stores to try herbal supplements with great expectations. These supplements

were generally ground crude herbs in 250 to 500 mg pills. Most were single

herbs and the dosage was 2to 3 pills twice daily. People self medicated and

got little result.

 

The problem was a lack and guidance and education. Correct me if I am

wrong, but Andrew Weil recommends using herbs at these dosages. Okay, so he

sites research but much of what he says (despite the research) will probably

lead to little result. Generally people need higher doses and guidance in

the selection of what is right for them.

 

People are still interested in herbs. Sure some have become reluctant to

try again after they got poor results. But the retail herb and supplements

market is big business. Trained Chinese herbalists need to advance

themselves as the experts and people will listen. Chinese herbalists should

play a greater part in this supplements market. Many average people still

go to the health food store and not the drug store for their cures. The

next step is the acupuncturist. I talk to people all the time about herbs

and dosage and proper selection. Most are very naive about this topic.

When I educate them and suggest that they see an acupuncturist many do just

that.

 

Practitioners should understand what is happening here. They should talk to

people about their experiences using herbs and guide them in the proper use.

People are still eager for herbal cures. Too many people do not

understand the benefit that the practitioners on this forum can provide.

For example, people go the the drug store for a cold remedy. If it does not

work, they go to the doctor for a (stronger) prescription. I think that too

few people understand that when they go to the health food store for a

remedy and it does not work, that they can get a stronger and more focused

remedy from their acupuncturist.

 

I believe that a lot of work needs to be done in educating people, before we

decide that adopting a western paradigm is the only solution.

 

Barry Thorne

 

 

 

> > However, the pendulum is always shifting. Politics in the modern

>era

> > shift rapidly. The fifties were quite a contrast to the sixties.

> >

> > However, I think Todd is right. Interest in herbal medicine has

>peaked

> > recently in the marketplace, and some type of retrenchment may be

> > necessary for our profession.

> >

> >

>

>

>Well, there's this concept called Yin and Yang...

>

>

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

>practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

>specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

>services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kurt and All,

 

Where I live ... in my cohort of Western science and many dozens of MD former

classmates, I see a world not unlike the one you've just described. No less

than 20 MD friends who do some realm of family practice across America have

insisted that I help them find ways to bring various supplement and herbal

products into their office for sale to their patients. They are desperately

seeking ways to market their practice to patients with various kinds of weak 3rd

party payment support as well as out of pocket willingness. The latter seems to

be the more recent target of many of my MD friends, especially since about 1998.

I'm not clear what changed in that year, but it had something to do with the

insurance industry as well as hospital privileges. Perhaps Alon has more

insight into this. I try not to get too personally involved as I prefer to keep

friendly relations as just that. Instead of getting personally involved, I turn

them on to all of the companies that you all are already familiar with plus

maybe a few that you're less familiar with. I have a fairly broad circuitry of

business in America. There are a few companies that seem to be pretty good at

selling their products wholesale to MDs as well as other practitioners. We are

in a curious period just now of transitions and implosions. What I used to be

able to recognize as " hospitals " back in the 1980s look like something else just

now and act like something else as well. And they keep on looking like

something else in quicker and quicker cycles.

 

From my observations people who get a masters in nursing are getting their

expectations met far better than those who are getting MDs. LAcs have no

illusions regarding support from larger powers-that-be. So I believe that CM

practitioners start off with a more realistic view of the world in the sense

that they must create their world from the ground up. The gap is huge for MDs

between what they expected when they trained in the 1980s and 1990s and what

they got in year 2003.

 

Also, Barry (since you posted recently), you started your wonderful business

right at the rock bottom of a bad market downturn a few years ago. The fact

that you're so busy these days augers well for CM in general and for your

business in particular. It probably means also that you and Laura are two of

the hardest workers anyone could ever know. I, for one, am very pleased to know

you.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

-

Kurt Kochek

Monday, November 17, 2003 11:00 AM

Re: Re: Statistics

 

 

In the beginning of the last century, homeopathy was at a crossroads. The

Rockefellar commission decided to fund the majority of medical colleges because

they and the Carniges knew is was a profitably venture. It was not for the

concern of health in this country, but a major profit for themselves because if

you're sick, you will pay. The conciousness of Americans differs from

Europeans, notiably the French. The French want to understand the process and

Americans want to purchase it. I knew when I graduated from Acupuncture school

it would be constantly educating my patients to understand the process.

Concerning marketing, making a $100K a year is a valid attempt in giving tools

to acupuncturist to market themselves in a very competitive field of healthcare.

I feel Bob Flaws has his heart in the right place, but because of the immense

amount of time and energy and dedication understanding chinese medicine we

inherently feel blighted by the fact that we not only have to understand the

process but we have to sell it with little support from the established medical

community. I suspect that this is where our love and dedication comes in. The

love of practicing chinese medicine and helping people obtain tools and

knowledge. But with all this, why can't we do more? Why can we get to more?

When will be accepted? Because many of my patients come to me as the cure of

last resort. After surgery, after years of drug use, you know the scene. And

we all know what could have been done if they had come to us first.

 

K Kochek

-

Monday, November 17, 2003 3:42 AM

Re: Statistics

 

 

, " Kurt Kochek " <earthmed@m...>

wrote:

I don't see us isolated as a profession, but parallel to a whole movement

that is

gradually gaining momentum.

 

 

I wish I could agree but the rise of the SUV and the epidemic of obesity and

the war mongering have me really doubting that America is on the path of

redemption. I feel like we saw a blip of interest in alternative health

peaking

a little while ago, which has now actually dipped (partly, I believe,

because the

research has lagged). Meat and tobacco consumption are both fashionable

again as an example of this trend. I think we either need to infiltrate the

mainstream healthcare system and lock in our gains, so to speak or we will

be

marginalized. There will be a small group of the faithful in any era, but I

see

no evidence that middle america is leaving the couch anytime soon.

 

Todd

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel, there's insurance and there is insurance. I think yours is like mine,

high

deductible disaster insurance for emergencies. Howevers others, especially

affiliated

with trade groups or other organized affiliations have insurances where day to

day

medical expenses are taken care of, usually with some sort of co-pay. Sometimes

acupuncture is covered, sometimes well, sometimes not at all and sometimes

through

3rd party brokers like ASHN and MediCal in California. These patients expect all

their

medical expenses to be taken care of with some sort of small co-pay. They've

either

paid dearly for them or have associated them with their jobs. This group will

choose a

poorly paid acupuncturist over a " private doctor " with the costs out of their

pocket.

It is these people that we need to be brought into fully to the " acupuncture

system " .

This is the political/economic struggle of our acupuncture associations and

legistlators. These are where the statistics, if you will, pay off.

 

The out of pocket people (and marginally insured) are served by the individual

and

group outreaches. They can be convinced by testimonial. There money is personal

and so is their choice.

 

doug

 

 

>

> I'm sorry you are outraged by my suggestion that CM makes sense for those who

like me can't afford or wish not to pay for WM health insurance. I worked on a

project

a couple of years ago with the notorious Howard Harrison to get public funding

to put

LAcs into Central Valley healthcare clinics that are California Community

Clinics. He

hired me in 1988 to do that for ACTCM, and I joined him to try again on a larger

scale. Like many things that Howard brainstorms, this one did not work out.

Year

2000 happened, Art Torres of the Democratic Party was less forthcoming with

funds,

and the rest is history. The Fruitvale Clinic in Oakland did get some benefit,

but our

grand scheme did not work out. I still think it's a great idea.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kurt:

 

I think that you have made a very important point. Acupuncturists must

learn to market themselves from the ground up. It may be that more could be

accomplished by working together in professional organizations to pool ideas

and monies to most efficiently bring your message to the market. Stay in

your own paradigm. Utilize research as a tool, but distance the profession

from it as well. Use the time tested methods to validate effectiveness and

avoid the statistical trap. The AMA was created to push allopathy to the

fore. Trust you own paradigm and work together to create a new future.

 

Barry Thorne

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> In the beginning of the last century, homeopathy was at a crossroads.

>The Rockefellar commission decided to fund the majority of medical colleges

>because they and the Carniges knew is was a profitably venture. It was not

>for the concern of health in this country, but a major profit for

>themselves because if you're sick, you will pay. The conciousness of

>Americans differs from Europeans, notiably the French. The French want to

>understand the process and Americans want to purchase it. I knew when I

>graduated from Acupuncture school it would be constantly educating my

>patients to understand the process. Concerning marketing, making a $100K a

>year is a valid attempt in giving tools to acupuncturist to market

>themselves in a very competitive field of healthcare. I feel Bob Flaws has

>his heart in the right place, but because of the immense amount of time and

>energy and dedication understanding chinese medicine we inherently feel

>blighted by the fact that we not only have to understand the process but we

>have to sell it with little support from the established medical community.

> I suspect that this is where our love and dedication comes in. The love

>of practicing chinese medicine and helping people obtain tools and

>knowledge. But with all this, why can't we do more? Why can we get to

>more? When will be accepted? Because many of my patients come to me as

>the cure of last resort. After surgery, after years of drug use, you know

>the scene. And we all know what could have been done if they had come to

>us first.

>

> K Kochek

> -

>

>

> Monday, November 17, 2003 3:42 AM

> Re: Statistics

>

>

 

_______________

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[Guest guest]

Another area is flex pay. Many companies provide several hundred dollars of

money as flex pay that people can use for doctor visits. This lowers the

cost of insurance for the company and let people avoid co-pays. Many

acupuncturists that I know have profited from this. Here is one example of

monies that the profession can target.

 

Barry Thorne

 

 

>Emmanuel, there's insurance and there is insurance. I think yours is like

>mine, high

>deductible disaster insurance for emergencies. Howevers others, especially

>affiliated

>with trade groups or other organized affiliations have insurances where day

>to day

>medical expenses are taken care of, usually with some sort of co-pay.

>Sometimes

>acupuncture is covered, sometimes well, sometimes not at all and sometimes

>through

>3rd party brokers like ASHN and MediCal in California. These patients

>expect all their

>medical expenses to be taken care of with some sort of small co-pay.

>They've either

>paid dearly for them or have associated them with their jobs. This group

>will choose a

>poorly paid acupuncturist over a " private doctor " with the costs out of

>their pocket.

>It is these people that we need to be brought into fully to the

> " acupuncture system " .

>This is the political/economic struggle of our acupuncture associations and

>legistlators. These are where the statistics, if you will, pay off.

>

>The out of pocket people (and marginally insured) are served by the

>individual and

>group outreaches. They can be convinced by testimonial. There money is

>personal

>and so is their choice.

>

>doug

>

>

 

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[Guest guest]

I'm not clear what changed in that year, but it had something to do with the

insurance industry as well as hospital privileges. Perhaps Alon has more

insight into this.

>>>>They need to make a living. It is becoming very difficult for many to cover

their overhead especially in the bay area.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

The out of pocket people (and marginally insured) are served by the individual

and group outreaches. They can be convinced by testimonial. There money is

personal and so is their choice.

 

doug

 

Thanks Doug,

 

Your post represents what I've seen, too. I recall being pretty down in the

dumps in the late 1970s after fracturing my vertebra and doing serious disc

damage. That's when I met Michael Broffman and numerous others who directed my

attention toward CM. Michael apparently saw the opportunity to teach me more

than treat me. I've been grateful every since.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

DOCTORS(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians pre year are 120,000.© Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services.GUNS(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. Yes, that is 80 million.(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups is 1,500.© The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188.Therefore, statistically, medical doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.Remember, "Guns don't kill people, medical doctors do."Fact: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban medical doctors before this gets completely out of hand.Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld the statistics on lawyers and politicians for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.

Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.727-447-5282Doc