Guest guest Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Ouch I'm not sure I caught the whole string of this line of discussion But I read enough to know when I'm being insulted Acupuncture is very diverse. TCM does not, and never has, " owned " acupuncture It is obvious from the discussions that there are many different styles and schools of thought when people are taught acupuncture. Different styles work better for different people in different areas - most people usually practice what they are taught That does not mean that other styles are not out there, or that they are any less valid. I have been practicing acupuncture in my office for almost 10 years I have great friends that are Chinese -educated as OMD's We refer back and forth without professional antagonism It is unfortunate that my practice " scares the hell out of you " At this point I have had 600+ hours in post graduate acupuncture training - that is more than was originally required for taking the NCCAOM exam As a practitioner - you should recognize your professional limits, I know when I need to call in for another opinion - either western or TCM Don't be so narrow minded in your practice that you alienate all others who don't do it " just like you " Doug _____ Steven Slater [laozhongyi] Friday, October 15, 2004 6:21 AM Chinese Medicine Unification articles Hi Manu and all, I just read what I could of the articles on this " new " unified medicine. I must first state I have not read the text and it this stage and I see no reason to spend $200 on it from what I have read. From the rough outlines of this integrated medicine it is simply the everyday practice of TCM in a modern Chinese TCM hospital, or at least the one I worked in. Modren TCM education in China produces doctors who practice both WM and TCM side by side. WM and TCM have been integrated this way for years, I see nothing new here but a entrepreneurial Chinese doctor promoting his business in the West. To Ze'v and other experienced educators on this list...... How many years do you think is minimum to enter practice as a TCM practitioner? What do you think about the proposed 1 year " diploma " to allow WM doctors to practice TCM? It scares the hell out of me. If anything could kill off TCM in the West, it would be poorly educated WM doctors practising parts of it under our public health care systems. Manu, do you know if this doctor is actually qualified to practice WM in New Zealand or Australia? Medical degrees (including masters and PhD's in integrated medicine) given in China hold no weight in the West. Is this doctor a qualified and registered WM practitioner in New Zealand? Best Wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Hi Doug, How did I insult you? Where did I suggest TCM owned acupuncture? Where did I suggest there is only one style of TCM? Where did I suggest TCM was all that was needed to treat people? I stated that a 1 year " diploma " to practice TCM (not just acupucnture) scares me.......that is all. Is this unreasonable? Believe it or not I also refer out with no problem. I recognise my professional limits. I asked if this author was qualified to practice WM in the west simply because it is 7 years basic study to do this here and this author is promoting the unification of WM and TCM.....so I would like to know if he is qualified to approach such a task. Honestly, I can't see how your reply relates to my post at all. Best Wishes, Steve On 15/10/2004, at 11:13 PM, Doug Briggs wrote: > > > Ouch > > I'm not sure I caught the whole string of this line of discussion > > But I read enough to know when I'm being insulted > > > > Acupuncture is very diverse. > > TCM does not, and never has, " owned " acupuncture > > It is obvious from the discussions that there are many different > styles and > schools of thought when people are taught acupuncture. Different > styles > work better for different people in different areas - most people > usually > practice what they are taught > > That does not mean that other styles are not out there, or that they > are any > less valid. > > > > I have been practicing acupuncture in my office for almost 10 years > > I have great friends that are Chinese -educated as OMD's > > We refer back and forth without professional antagonism > > > > It is unfortunate that my practice " scares the hell out of you " > > At this point I have had 600+ hours in post graduate acupuncture > training - > that is more than was originally required for taking the NCCAOM exam > > As a practitioner - you should recognize your professional limits, I > know > when I need to call in for another opinion - either western or TCM > > > > Don't be so narrow minded in your practice that you alienate all > others who > don't do it " just like you " > > > > Doug > > > > _____ > > Steven Slater [laozhongyi] > Friday, October 15, 2004 6:21 AM > Chinese Medicine > Unification articles > > > > Hi Manu and all, > > I just read what I could of the articles on this " new " unified > medicine. I must first state I have not read the text and it this stage > and I see no reason to spend $200 on it from what I have read. From the > rough outlines of this integrated medicine it is simply the everyday > practice of TCM in a modern Chinese TCM hospital, or at least the one I > worked in. Modren TCM education in China produces doctors who practice > both WM and TCM side by side. WM and TCM have been integrated this way > for years, I see nothing new here but a entrepreneurial Chinese doctor > promoting his business in the West. > > To Ze'v and other experienced educators on this list...... > > How many years do you think is minimum to enter practice as a TCM > practitioner? > What do you think about the proposed 1 year " diploma " to allow WM > doctors to practice TCM? It scares the hell out of me. > > If anything could kill off TCM in the West, it would be poorly educated > WM doctors practising parts of it under our public health care systems. > > Manu, do you know if this doctor is actually qualified to practice WM > in New Zealand or Australia? Medical degrees (including masters and > PhD's in integrated medicine) given in China hold no weight in the > West. Is this doctor a qualified and registered WM practitioner in New > Zealand? > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > delivered. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Hi Steve My apologies I tend to get a little defensive over that topic I have been insulted by many in the profession because I did not go to " their school " or do it " their way " I can name at least 3 people in my area who will not refer to me because they don't like my educational background, and have made public issue of who has the right to practice Acu and why It was not my intent to personally attack you, again, my apologies Unfortunately, there are idiots in all aspects of healthcare - eastern and western As long as competent people do their job and help patients - we should all be able to learn from each other and get along Namaste Doug _____ Steven Slater [laozhongyi] Friday, October 15, 2004 9:35 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Unification articles Hi Doug, How did I insult you? Where did I suggest TCM owned acupuncture? Where did I suggest there is only one style of TCM? Where did I suggest TCM was all that was needed to treat people? I stated that a 1 year " diploma " to practice TCM (not just acupucnture) scares me.......that is all. Is this unreasonable? Believe it or not I also refer out with no problem. I recognise my professional limits. I asked if this author was qualified to practice WM in the west simply because it is 7 years basic study to do this here and this author is promoting the unification of WM and TCM.....so I would like to know if he is qualified to approach such a task. Honestly, I can't see how your reply relates to my post at all. Best Wishes, Steve On 15/10/2004, at 11:13 PM, Doug Briggs wrote: > > > Ouch > > I'm not sure I caught the whole string of this line of discussion > > But I read enough to know when I'm being insulted > > > > Acupuncture is very diverse. > > TCM does not, and never has, " owned " acupuncture > > It is obvious from the discussions that there are many different > styles and > schools of thought when people are taught acupuncture. Different > styles > work better for different people in different areas - most people > usually > practice what they are taught > > That does not mean that other styles are not out there, or that they > are any > less valid. > > > > I have been practicing acupuncture in my office for almost 10 years > > I have great friends that are Chinese -educated as OMD's > > We refer back and forth without professional antagonism > > > > It is unfortunate that my practice " scares the hell out of you " > > At this point I have had 600+ hours in post graduate acupuncture > training - > that is more than was originally required for taking the NCCAOM exam > > As a practitioner - you should recognize your professional limits, I > know > when I need to call in for another opinion - either western or TCM > > > > Don't be so narrow minded in your practice that you alienate all > others who > don't do it " just like you " > > > > Doug > > > > _____ > > Steven Slater [laozhongyi] > Friday, October 15, 2004 6:21 AM > Chinese Medicine > Unification articles > > > > Hi Manu and all, > > I just read what I could of the articles on this " new " unified > medicine. I must first state I have not read the text and it this stage > and I see no reason to spend $200 on it from what I have read. From the > rough outlines of this integrated medicine it is simply the everyday > practice of TCM in a modern Chinese TCM hospital, or at least the one I > worked in. Modren TCM education in China produces doctors who practice > both WM and TCM side by side. WM and TCM have been integrated this way > for years, I see nothing new here but a entrepreneurial Chinese doctor > promoting his business in the West. > > To Ze'v and other experienced educators on this list...... > > How many years do you think is minimum to enter practice as a TCM > practitioner? > What do you think about the proposed 1 year " diploma " to allow WM > doctors to practice TCM? It scares the hell out of me. > > If anything could kill off TCM in the West, it would be poorly educated > WM doctors practising parts of it under our public health care systems. > > Manu, do you know if this doctor is actually qualified to practice WM > in New Zealand or Australia? Medical degrees (including masters and > PhD's in integrated medicine) given in China hold no weight in the > West. Is this doctor a qualified and registered WM practitioner in New > Zealand? > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > delivered. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Hi Steve His qualifications you ask, he has a masters degree in asthma, he has a PH.D in the subject intergrated medicines " Unification " . He has worked in Chinese hospitals as both a TCM doctor and a WM doctor for many years. He has a masters in philosophy, he has been practicing medicine for 30 years, he is highly respected in the field. Ask around many people will know who Dr Lonnian Lee is. His qualifications in TCM would are way beyond the vast majority. He has been working on the book for over 20 years communicating with experst in the feild from all over the world. If thats not qualified enough what is. Regards Manu Steven Slater <laozhongyi wrote: Hi Doug, How did I insult you? Where did I suggest TCM owned acupuncture? Where did I suggest there is only one style of TCM? Where did I suggest TCM was all that was needed to treat people? I stated that a 1 year " diploma " to practice TCM (not just acupucnture) scares me.......that is all. Is this unreasonable? Believe it or not I also refer out with no problem. I recognise my professional limits. I asked if this author was qualified to practice WM in the west simply because it is 7 years basic study to do this here and this author is promoting the unification of WM and TCM.....so I would like to know if he is qualified to approach such a task. Honestly, I can't see how your reply relates to my post at all. Best Wishes, Steve On 15/10/2004, at 11:13 PM, Doug Briggs wrote: > > > Ouch > > I'm not sure I caught the whole string of this line of discussion > > But I read enough to know when I'm being insulted > > > > Acupuncture is very diverse. > > TCM does not, and never has, " owned " acupuncture > > It is obvious from the discussions that there are many different > styles and > schools of thought when people are taught acupuncture. Different > styles > work better for different people in different areas - most people > usually > practice what they are taught > > That does not mean that other styles are not out there, or that they > are any > less valid. > > > > I have been practicing acupuncture in my office for almost 10 years > > I have great friends that are Chinese -educated as OMD's > > We refer back and forth without professional antagonism > > > > It is unfortunate that my practice " scares the hell out of you " > > At this point I have had 600+ hours in post graduate acupuncture > training - > that is more than was originally required for taking the NCCAOM exam > > As a practitioner - you should recognize your professional limits, I > know > when I need to call in for another opinion - either western or TCM > > > > Don't be so narrow minded in your practice that you alienate all > others who > don't do it " just like you " > > > > Doug > > > > _____ > > Steven Slater [laozhongyi] > Friday, October 15, 2004 6:21 AM > Chinese Medicine > Unification articles > > > > Hi Manu and all, > > I just read what I could of the articles on this " new " unified > medicine. I must first state I have not read the text and it this stage > and I see no reason to spend $200 on it from what I have read. From the > rough outlines of this integrated medicine it is simply the everyday > practice of TCM in a modern Chinese TCM hospital, or at least the one I > worked in. Modren TCM education in China produces doctors who practice > both WM and TCM side by side. WM and TCM have been integrated this way > for years, I see nothing new here but a entrepreneurial Chinese doctor > promoting his business in the West. > > To Ze'v and other experienced educators on this list...... > > How many years do you think is minimum to enter practice as a TCM > practitioner? > What do you think about the proposed 1 year " diploma " to allow WM > doctors to practice TCM? It scares the hell out of me. > > If anything could kill off TCM in the West, it would be poorly educated > WM doctors practising parts of it under our public health care systems. > > Manu, do you know if this doctor is actually qualified to practice WM > in New Zealand or Australia? Medical degrees (including masters and > PhD's in integrated medicine) given in China hold no weight in the > West. Is this doctor a qualified and registered WM practitioner in New > Zealand? > > Best Wishes, > > Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Hi Steve Just answered many of your questions in recent post. Yes you are right this is common practice now in China however this has not yet happened in the west. According to what I have read he recieved his PH.D in the west, he lectures at WM schools on WM as well. Regarding can he practice in New Zealand the that is not possible. The reason being according to the law you can not practice both WM & TCM its either one or the other. As you have correctly stated in China this is not a problem as the two medicines can work together how ever this is due to TCM being familiar and easily comprehendable for Chinese cultered people. So I agree with all your points I just believe your points were slightly off target Regards Manu Steven Slater <laozhongyi wrote: Hi Manu and all, I just read what I could of the articles on this " new " unified medicine. I must first state I have not read the text and it this stage and I see no reason to spend $200 on it from what I have read. From the rough outlines of this integrated medicine it is simply the everyday practice of TCM in a modern Chinese TCM hospital, or at least the one I worked in. Modren TCM education in China produces doctors who practice both WM and TCM side by side. WM and TCM have been integrated this way for years, I see nothing new here but a entrepreneurial Chinese doctor promoting his business in the West. To Ze'v and other experienced educators on this list...... How many years do you think is minimum to enter practice as a TCM practitioner? What do you think about the proposed 1 year " diploma " to allow WM doctors to practice TCM? It scares the hell out of me. If anything could kill off TCM in the West, it would be poorly educated WM doctors practising parts of it under our public health care systems. Manu, do you know if this doctor is actually qualified to practice WM in New Zealand or Australia? Medical degrees (including masters and PhD's in integrated medicine) given in China hold no weight in the West. Is this doctor a qualified and registered WM practitioner in New Zealand? Best Wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 On 16/10/2004, at 1:43 PM, manu hamlin wrote: > > > Hi Steve > > Just answered many of your questions in recent post. Yes you are right > this is common practice now in China however this has not yet happened > in the west. According to what I have read he recieved his PH.D in the > west, he lectures at WM schools on WM as well. Regarding can he > practice in New Zealand the that is not possible. Hi Manu, > The reason being according to the law you can not practice both WM & > TCM its either one or the other. Sorry, this is not true. You just have to be educated to western standards to practice WM here. This was the gist of my question and I thank you for the honest answer. You certainly can practice both if you are qualified in both. Best Wishes, Steve > As you have correctly stated in China this is not a problem as the two > medicines can work together how ever this is due to TCM being familiar > and easily comprehendable for Chinese cultered people. So I agree with > all your points I just believe your points were slightly off target > > Regards > > Manu > > Steven Slater <laozhongyi wrote: > Hi Manu and all, > > I just read what I could of the articles on this " new " unified > medicine. I must first state I have not read the text and it this stage > and I see no reason to spend $200 on it from what I have read. From the > rough outlines of this integrated medicine it is simply the everyday > practice of TCM in a modern Chinese TCM hospital, or at least the one I > worked in. Modren TCM education in China produces doctors who practice > both WM and TCM side by side. WM and TCM have been integrated this way > for years, I see nothing new here but a entrepreneurial Chinese doctor > promoting his business in the West. > > To Ze'v and other experienced educators on this list...... > > How many years do you think is minimum to enter practice as a TCM > practitioner? > What do you think about the proposed 1 year " diploma " to allow WM > doctors to practice TCM? It scares the hell out of me. > > If anything could kill off TCM in the West, it would be poorly educated > WM doctors practising parts of it under our public health care systems. > > Manu, do you know if this doctor is actually qualified to practice WM > in New Zealand or Australia? Medical degrees (including masters and > PhD's in integrated medicine) given in China hold no weight in the > West. Is this doctor a qualified and registered WM practitioner in New > Zealand? > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Manu: >TCM >being familiar and easily comprehendable for Chinese cultered people Eric: This is a frequently encountered myth. Modern Chinese people are educated with a scientific viewpoint. They grow up with ideas like qi and yin-yang as familiar concepts, but these basic theories are generally well-grasped by many Western practitioners and are not a source of a great divide within the educated Western community. We may tend to overmystify qi in comparison to Asian cultures, where qi is not treated as some obscure concept or leap of faith, yet the specific theories of Chinese medicine are as foreign to modern Chinese students as they are to modern Western students. Everyone needs to learn advanced TCM theory more or less from scratch no matter what culture they come from. Chinese people have the advantage that they have a great deal of solid literature upon which to form their ideas, whereas we have a great deal of distorted literature targeted to different audiences for different purposes. The Chinese belief that Westerners are incapable of comprehending the authentic depth of TCM has caused the presentation of TCM to be modified and simplified in expectation that this is required to appeal to the Western pallate. Yet it is simply not true that Westerners cannot learn to understand the depth of traditional Chinese theory. We simply need reliable sources of minimally distorted information that preserve the authentic viewpoints, historical evolution, and metaphors that influence the expression of traditional theory. The shortcomings in the Western understanding of TCM are not due to the fallacy that Western minds cannot understand the concepts, the shortcomings are due to the fact that many have had poorly transmitted literature as the basis of their education. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Hi all, Well, having spent 6 months in Beijing, i think that most doctors think TCM and western medicine can be merged together. I've seen it used together everyday in the hospitals. Although, i strongly believe that it is unbalanced, with heavy dosage use of both allopathic and TCM medicines. Also, different generations have different leanings towards either TCM or WM. The older generation favour TCM whilst the younger generation prefer WM. What i will say is that the integration of WM and TCM in China is still very much in the dark ages and will take decades to get anywhere where we would like to see it. Their understanding of TCM is advanced but their understanding of WM is far from it and lags behind the West. This will hold the development of integration until the Chinese catch up with Western use of allopathic medicine and then hopefully supercede it. Attilio Chinese Medicine , manu hamlin <manuhamlin> wrote: > > Hi Steve > > Just answered many of your questions in recent post. Yes you are right this is common practice now in China however this has not yet happened in the west. According to what I have read he recieved his PH.D in the west, he lectures at WM schools on WM as well. Regarding can he practice in New Zealand the that is not possible. The reason being according to the law you can not practice both WM & TCM its either one or the other. As you have correctly stated in China this is not a problem as the two medicines can work together how ever this is due to TCM being familiar and easily comprehendable for Chinese cultered people. So I agree with all your points I just believe your points were slightly off target > > Regards > > Manu > > Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > Hi Manu and all, > > I just read what I could of the articles on this " new " unified > medicine. I must first state I have not read the text and it this stage > and I see no reason to spend $200 on it from what I have read. From the > rough outlines of this integrated medicine it is simply the everyday > practice of TCM in a modern Chinese TCM hospital, or at least the one I > worked in. Modren TCM education in China produces doctors who practice > both WM and TCM side by side. WM and TCM have been integrated this way > for years, I see nothing new here but a entrepreneurial Chinese doctor > promoting his business in the West. > > To Ze'v and other experienced educators on this list...... > > How many years do you think is minimum to enter practice as a TCM > practitioner? > What do you think about the proposed 1 year " diploma " to allow WM > doctors to practice TCM? It scares the hell out of me. > > If anything could kill off TCM in the West, it would be poorly educated > WM doctors practising parts of it under our public health care systems. > > Manu, do you know if this doctor is actually qualified to practice WM > in New Zealand or Australia? Medical degrees (including masters and > PhD's in integrated medicine) given in China hold no weight in the > West. Is this doctor a qualified and registered WM practitioner in New > Zealand? > > Best Wishes, > > Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Dear Attilio and All, I'd like to respond briefly to this thread. Sorry if a few recieve double posts as I have copied it to 21CUPC as well. From my specialist point of view in the realm of prostate cancer, the unification of WM and CM has so far brought nothing but disarray and confusion. A few years ago a very clever CM pharmacist 'invented' a hybrid CM drug (PC-SPES) that would satisfiy a commercial niche demand in the west for symptomatic treatment of prostate cancer. It 'worked' by reducing PSA in a dramatic way; but like all symptomatic treatments for this disease, inevitably leads to an advanced, 'incurable' condition. [ But see 21CUPC home page for the heretic's view. www.prostateman.org ] From a CM point of view PC-SPES was a 'bad formula' but nevertheless gave rise to an unprecedented number of scientific peer reviewed articles. 93 to date, not all but most quite flattering. The formula managed to powerfully mimick estrogens despite there never being positive proof that contamination was a significant issue. This mimicking is a physical phenomenaon due to the property of the 'electron shell' or 'charge configuration' produced by the formula. There are comparisons here with the way DIM works as a natural sex-steroid blocker, and with the notion of succination we find in homeopathic medicine, and in earlier days alchemy - but more of that in 50 years or so. I do not think anyone is ready for 'unification' at such a level. Not enough money to fuel the imagination that is around. The reason for this is because there is an overriding concern in the west with patents and the profits they bring. No real concern for patients. That is sissy stuff. For example (and by contrast) there are just three PubMed references to specific CM formulations that treat prostate cancer by enhancing androgens rather than by simulating castration and feminisation: 11025772 12894532 11894110. Today, right now there is no meaningful unification because neither side really cares to understands the other when there is a race on to earn $$$$. This is the currency and until that changes there will be distortion and bias in the way science is presented. The best we can hope for is mutual respect and distance, and at best I think we can hope for a 'layering' of incompatible theories or 'models' of the way the world (and life) works. Thus there could be a mechanistic level served by WM, an energetic (qi) level served by CM and a spritual level served by 'hope' or 'faith' or whatever you want to call it. Here is an inspirational quote from a scientist who has done much to bring about 'understanding' of the wider issues in this disease. It is not 'unification' but it is a step forward. There is a PDF version of the full article available. Cheers, Sammy. 1: Hong Kong Med J. 2001 Dec;7(4):369-74. The medicinal action of androgens and green tea epigallocatechin gallate. Liao S. Tang Center for Herbal Medicine Research, Ben May Institute for Cancer Research, University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois, USA. Unorthodox (non-traditional or alternative) medicinal practices have been expanding very rapidly in western countries. Modern physicians, scientists, and non-traditional medicine practitioners now must join forces to promote evidence-based medicine to benefit patients. Green tea extracts are among the most widely used ancient medicinal agents, while androgens are probably the oldest drugs used in a purified form in traditional Chinese medicine. It is now clear that a specific green tea catechin, (-)epigallocatechin-3-gallate, can modulate the production and biological actions of androgens and other hormones. Modulation of androgenic activity and administration of (-)epigallocatechin-3-gallate may be useful for the treatment of various hormone-related abnormalities, such as benign prostatic hyperplasia, baldness, and acne, as well as androgen-dependent and -independent prostate cancers. (-)Epigallocatechin-3-gallate has also been shown to modulate appetite and control obesity in animals. Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial PMID: 11773671 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] - Chinese Medicine Sunday, October 17, 2004 10:40 AM Re: Unification articles Hi all, Well, having spent 6 months in Beijing, i think that most doctors think TCM and western medicine can be merged together. I've seen it used together everyday in the hospitals. Although, i strongly believe that it is unbalanced, with heavy dosage use of both allopathic and TCM medicines. Also, different generations have different leanings towards either TCM or WM. The older generation favour TCM whilst the younger generation prefer WM. What i will say is that the integration of WM and TCM in China is still very much in the dark ages and will take decades to get anywhere where we would like to see it. Their understanding of TCM is advanced but their understanding of WM is far from it and lags behind the West. This will hold the development of integration until the Chinese catch up with Western use of allopathic medicine and then hopefully supercede it. Attilio Chinese Medicine , manu hamlin <manuhamlin> wrote: > > Hi Steve > > Just answered many of your questions in recent post. Yes you are right this is common practice now in China however this has not yet happened in the west. According to what I have read he recieved his PH.D in the west, he lectures at WM schools on WM as well. Regarding can he practice in New Zealand the that is not possible. The reason being according to the law you can not practice both WM & TCM its either one or the other. As you have correctly stated in China this is not a problem as the two medicines can work together how ever this is due to TCM being familiar and easily comprehendable for Chinese cultered people. So I agree with all your points I just believe your points were slightly off target > > Regards > > Manu > > Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > Hi Manu and all, > > I just read what I could of the articles on this " new " unified > medicine. I must first state I have not read the text and it this stage > and I see no reason to spend $200 on it from what I have read. From the > rough outlines of this integrated medicine it is simply the everyday > practice of TCM in a modern Chinese TCM hospital, or at least the one I > worked in. Modren TCM education in China produces doctors who practice > both WM and TCM side by side. WM and TCM have been integrated this way > for years, I see nothing new here but a entrepreneurial Chinese doctor > promoting his business in the West. > > To Ze'v and other experienced educators on this list...... > > How many years do you think is minimum to enter practice as a TCM > practitioner? > What do you think about the proposed 1 year " diploma " to allow WM > doctors to practice TCM? It scares the hell out of me. > > If anything could kill off TCM in the West, it would be poorly educated > WM doctors practising parts of it under our public health care systems. > > Manu, do you know if this doctor is actually qualified to practice WM > in New Zealand or Australia? Medical degrees (including masters and > PhD's in integrated medicine) given in China hold no weight in the > West. Is this doctor a qualified and registered WM practitioner in New > Zealand? > > Best Wishes, > > Steve http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. 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Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Hi Steve Well I guess your talking about Australia, it seems they are leeps and bounds ahead of New Zealand. They had a huge controversy here regarding if you can practice both however in the end theyGovernment decided to go with just one. I believe this is a good thing for now as I dont want some WM guy thinking he can practice TCM with minimal training, its a would be a double standard. Regards Manu Steven Slater <laozhongyi wrote: On 16/10/2004, at 1:43 PM, manu hamlin wrote: > > > Hi Steve > > Just answered many of your questions in recent post. Yes you are right > this is common practice now in China however this has not yet happened > in the west. According to what I have read he recieved his PH.D in the > west, he lectures at WM schools on WM as well. Regarding can he > practice in New Zealand the that is not possible. Hi Manu, > The reason being according to the law you can not practice both WM & > TCM its either one or the other. Sorry, this is not true. You just have to be educated to western standards to practice WM here. This was the gist of my question and I thank you for the honest answer. You certainly can practice both if you are qualified in both. Best Wishes, Steve > As you have correctly stated in China this is not a problem as the two > medicines can work together how ever this is due to TCM being familiar > and easily comprehendable for Chinese cultered people. So I agree with > all your points I just believe your points were slightly off target > > Regards > > Manu > > Steven Slater <laozhongyi wrote: > Hi Manu and all, > > I just read what I could of the articles on this " new " unified > medicine. I must first state I have not read the text and it this stage > and I see no reason to spend $200 on it from what I have read. From the > rough outlines of this integrated medicine it is simply the everyday > practice of TCM in a modern Chinese TCM hospital, or at least the one I > worked in. Modren TCM education in China produces doctors who practice > both WM and TCM side by side. WM and TCM have been integrated this way > for years, I see nothing new here but a entrepreneurial Chinese doctor > promoting his business in the West. > > To Ze'v and other experienced educators on this list...... > > How many years do you think is minimum to enter practice as a TCM > practitioner? > What do you think about the proposed 1 year " diploma " to allow WM > doctors to practice TCM? It scares the hell out of me. > > If anything could kill off TCM in the West, it would be poorly educated > WM doctors practising parts of it under our public health care systems. > > Manu, do you know if this doctor is actually qualified to practice WM > in New Zealand or Australia? Medical degrees (including masters and > PhD's in integrated medicine) given in China hold no weight in the > West. Is this doctor a qualified and registered WM practitioner in New > Zealand? > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Hi Yeah your wright theres a long way to go but the sooner we start the better. Regards Manu <attiliodalberto wrote: Hi all, Well, having spent 6 months in Beijing, i think that most doctors think TCM and western medicine can be merged together. I've seen it used together everyday in the hospitals. Although, i strongly believe that it is unbalanced, with heavy dosage use of both allopathic and TCM medicines. Also, different generations have different leanings towards either TCM or WM. The older generation favour TCM whilst the younger generation prefer WM. What i will say is that the integration of WM and TCM in China is still very much in the dark ages and will take decades to get anywhere where we would like to see it. Their understanding of TCM is advanced but their understanding of WM is far from it and lags behind the West. This will hold the development of integration until the Chinese catch up with Western use of allopathic medicine and then hopefully supercede it. Attilio Chinese Medicine , manu hamlin <manuhamlin> wrote: > > Hi Steve > > Just answered many of your questions in recent post. Yes you are right this is common practice now in China however this has not yet happened in the west. According to what I have read he recieved his PH.D in the west, he lectures at WM schools on WM as well. Regarding can he practice in New Zealand the that is not possible. The reason being according to the law you can not practice both WM & TCM its either one or the other. As you have correctly stated in China this is not a problem as the two medicines can work together how ever this is due to TCM being familiar and easily comprehendable for Chinese cultered people. So I agree with all your points I just believe your points were slightly off target > > Regards > > Manu > > Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > Hi Manu and all, > > I just read what I could of the articles on this " new " unified > medicine. I must first state I have not read the text and it this stage > and I see no reason to spend $200 on it from what I have read. From the > rough outlines of this integrated medicine it is simply the everyday > practice of TCM in a modern Chinese TCM hospital, or at least the one I > worked in. Modren TCM education in China produces doctors who practice > both WM and TCM side by side. WM and TCM have been integrated this way > for years, I see nothing new here but a entrepreneurial Chinese doctor > promoting his business in the West. > > To Ze'v and other experienced educators on this list...... > > How many years do you think is minimum to enter practice as a TCM > practitioner? > What do you think about the proposed 1 year " diploma " to allow WM > doctors to practice TCM? It scares the hell out of me. > > If anything could kill off TCM in the West, it would be poorly educated > WM doctors practising parts of it under our public health care systems. > > Manu, do you know if this doctor is actually qualified to practice WM > in New Zealand or Australia? Medical degrees (including masters and > PhD's in integrated medicine) given in China hold no weight in the > West. Is this doctor a qualified and registered WM practitioner in New > Zealand? > > Best Wishes, > > Steve http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 The Chinese have been trying for 50 years and haven't gotten very far. Attilio Chinese Medicine , manu hamlin <manuhamlin> wrote: > > Hi > > Yeah your wright theres a long way to go but the sooner we start the better. > Regards > > Manu > > <attiliodalberto> wrote: > > Hi all, > > Well, having spent 6 months in Beijing, i think that most doctors > think TCM and western medicine can be merged together. I've seen it > used together everyday in the hospitals. Although, i strongly > believe that it is unbalanced, with heavy dosage use of both > allopathic and TCM medicines. Also, different generations have > different leanings towards either TCM or WM. The older generation > favour TCM whilst the younger generation prefer WM. > > What i will say is that the integration of WM and TCM in China is > still very much in the dark ages and will take decades to get > anywhere where we would like to see it. Their understanding of TCM > is advanced but their understanding of WM is far from it and lags > behind the West. This will hold the development of integration until > the Chinese catch up with Western use of allopathic medicine and > then hopefully supercede it. > > Attilio > > Chinese Medicine , manu hamlin > <manuhamlin> wrote: > > > > Hi Steve > > > > Just answered many of your questions in recent post. Yes you are > right this is common practice now in China however this has not yet > happened in the west. According to what I have read he recieved his > PH.D in the west, he lectures at WM schools on WM as well. Regarding > can he practice in New Zealand the that is not possible. The reason > being according to the law you can not practice both WM & TCM its > either one or the other. As you have correctly stated in China this > is not a problem as the two medicines can work together how ever > this is due to TCM being familiar and easily comprehendable for > Chinese cultered people. So I agree with all your points I just > believe your points were slightly off target > > > > Regards > > > > Manu > > > > Steven Slater <laozhongyi@m...> wrote: > > Hi Manu and all, > > > > I just read what I could of the articles on this " new " unified > > medicine. I must first state I have not read the text and it this > stage > > and I see no reason to spend $200 on it from what I have read. > From the > > rough outlines of this integrated medicine it is simply the > everyday > > practice of TCM in a modern Chinese TCM hospital, or at least the > one I > > worked in. Modren TCM education in China produces doctors who > practice > > both WM and TCM side by side. WM and TCM have been integrated this > way > > for years, I see nothing new here but a entrepreneurial Chinese > doctor > > promoting his business in the West. > > > > To Ze'v and other experienced educators on this list...... > > > > How many years do you think is minimum to enter practice as a TCM > > practitioner? > > What do you think about the proposed 1 year " diploma " to allow WM > > doctors to practice TCM? It scares the hell out of me. > > > > If anything could kill off TCM in the West, it would be poorly > educated > > WM doctors practising parts of it under our public health care > systems. > > > > Manu, do you know if this doctor is actually qualified to practice > WM > > in New Zealand or Australia? Medical degrees (including masters > and > > PhD's in integrated medicine) given in China hold no weight in the > > West. Is this doctor a qualified and registered WM practitioner in > New > > Zealand? > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 On 18/10/2004, at 2:42 PM, manu hamlin wrote: > > > Hi Steve > > Well I guess your talking about Australia, it seems they are leeps and > bounds ahead of New Zealand. They had a huge controversy here > regarding if you can practice both however in the end theyGovernment > decided to go with just one. I believe this is a good thing for now as > I dont want some WM guy thinking he can practice TCM with minimal > training, its a would be a double standard. > > Regards > > Manu HI Manu, This was my point as posted below. Having some WM guy practising TCM with minimal training is exactly why I am against the proposal of the author. In one of the articles you uploaded it talked about a 1 year diploma......this is what scares the hell out of me. This is the double standard; don't expect any TCM doctor to be able to practice WM without normal full qualifications in the West.........this is fair and I expect the same respect given to TCM. I have no problem with WM doctors practising TCM if they have the basic foundations that TCM doctors do; anything less than 3 years won't cut the mustard IMO. Regarding only being able to practice one medicine in New Zealand; where does this leave all the WM doctors that do the author's course? Best Wishes, Steve >> >> Steven Slater <laozhongyi wrote: >> Hi Manu and all, >> >> I just read what I could of the articles on this " new " unified >> medicine. I must first state I have not read the text and it this >> stage >> and I see no reason to spend $200 on it from what I have read. From >> the >> rough outlines of this integrated medicine it is simply the everyday >> practice of TCM in a modern Chinese TCM hospital, or at least the one >> I >> worked in. Modren TCM education in China produces doctors who practice >> both WM and TCM side by side. WM and TCM have been integrated this way >> for years, I see nothing new here but a entrepreneurial Chinese doctor >> promoting his business in the West. >> >> To Ze'v and other experienced educators on this list...... >> >> How many years do you think is minimum to enter practice as a TCM >> practitioner? >> What do you think about the proposed 1 year " diploma " to allow WM >> doctors to practice TCM? It scares the hell out of me. >> >> If anything could kill off TCM in the West, it would be poorly >> educated >> WM doctors practising parts of it under our public health care >> systems. >> >> Manu, do you know if this doctor is actually qualified to practice WM >> in New Zealand or Australia? Medical degrees (including masters and >> PhD's in integrated medicine) given in China hold no weight in the >> West. Is this doctor a qualified and registered WM practitioner in New >> Zealand? >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> Steve >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 That a TCM'er will want to find parity in terminology with WM'ers is also a symptom of wanting to ape the ape. For instance when people were trying to legitimize TCM in terms of schools they came upon the 4-year formula because that's how the med school is constructed. These days folks think of dragging in cadavers to put needles in, because the medics do that. Legitimacy at all costs, even when it borders on the ridiculous. TCM'ers should not lose tract of the fact that by the billions of dollars people opted for acupuncture and herbs, out of their own pockets. If insurers are paying to ay extent, it is because they want space on the band wagon, and because the insured want it or else they get another cover. While the lonely TCM'er wants to acquire learned labels of the WM kind, the WM'er, infinitely more moneyed and lobbied up the gazoo, is doing just the opposite, because one, people want it, and two, TCM works. I imagine one should stay TCM to the hilt, and not compromise that philosophy, which was born in the far villages and on street corners, in which lab tests and research findings and fancy diagnostic labels which describe collated symptoms did not figure Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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