excuse me, who's the best? Was fused cervical vertabrae

[Guest guest]

I don't understand why in a professional forum such as this we

continue to have discussions over who's the best. One person gets

better results through tuina, another gets better results through

acupuncture or herbs or whatever else. Does that mean one style is

superior over another? The reason these styles exist is because they

work to some degree for something and have survived because of this.

Is anything in life black or white? Does anyone in this forum know

everyone in the world who is getting treated with every modality and

is qualifed to make a blanket statement about what is best? We all

have very limited perspectives. Why can't we accept this?

 

Just because they don't happen to work for a specific individual from

a specific practitioner doesn't really mean a whole lot to me, All

practitioners get great results from some of their patients. A

different practitioner even in the same modality will get great

results from some of the people that the other one wasn't able to.

When you start looking across modalitites it gets more complicated. A

missing factor from this that no one mentions is the practitioner -

patient relationship which I believe further influences the outcome.

 

So I'm going to relate a story to illustrate that qigong can actually

work. This in no way means I think qigong is the best - again, best

according to what? It also doesn't mean that I believe that every

case reduces down to a simple blockage. It does however serve to

illustrate the power of a technique from a very qualified

practitioner. This practitioner uses a very simplistic diagnosis for

this particular case which might easily be dismissed in this forum

due to its simplicity. But because he's been doing it for 50 years

and purportedly teaching people in 28 countries, people might be more

likely to think twice before discounting the technique based on

simplicity. I'm not trying to appear as wearing the blockage

perspective on my sleeve, but this is to illustrate that people do

great things using this perspective.

 

So recently a qigong master and acupuncturist of 50 years came over

from china and treated an otherwise healthy woman in her 30's who had

contracted something that caused her lymph nodes to swell and further

progress to not having enough energy to walk, and had to be wheeled

around in a wheel chair. This was over a period of two months. Very

good western medicine doctors found nothing they could treat. After

one qigong treatment where she had to be helped on to the treatment

table, she got off of it and walked around and has been walking

around and improving ever since. The treatment he used (didn't see

it, but was relayed from an eye witness) was qigong.

 

The diagnosis was cold qi in the lower body and a blockage at the

waist. This rather simple diagnosis was from an acupuncturist of 50

years in china. So he swept qi down the body and pulled it out the

feet. The treatment, while simple, is not easy and requires alot of

internal training.

 

And does this technique work for every single person that walks into

his clinic? Well, I haven't asked any of them but most likely not.

 

--brian

[Guest guest]

Hi Brian,

 

The comments I made in a previous post are based upon my own and others

experiences whilst in China. I and others found acupuncture to be more

beneficial than Tuina. Having had Tuina from experienced practitioners

who've studied it for 5 years I think I'm in a position to comment on its

effectiveness. Acupuncture and herbal medicine are also more popular in

China than Tuina. Why is that? Therefore, I believe that acupuncture and

herbal medicine are more effective for the reasons I stated above in the

treatment of a wide variety of disorders. I'm not knocking Tuina at all, I'm

just tired of constantly hearing of Tuina and blockages and then trying to

fit that to acupuncture and herbal medicine. It can't be done and shouldn't

be done.

 

Your case is interesting but you cannot always quote from a master's

experience and then dictate it to the whole field. Of course, a master in

any discipline of TCM will have almost miracle results. I've seen an

acupuncturist in Beijing treat stroke patients who couldn't walk or talk

with amazing results, i.e. walking and talking again in the space of a few

months.

 

A Qi Gong master can give their Qi to the patient and help the Zangfu, Qi,

Blood, Yin and Yang in a number of ways. Their not simply removing

blockages! Qi is a number of factors and doesn't just run through the

Jinglou and get blocked. Qi Gong is a perfect preventative art for us mere

mortals aswell as a treatment art for those more experienced practitioners.

 

It's interesting to note that in our western world we are deprived of hands

on healing, especially in countries such as the UK where were a non-touch

society. Therefore, Tuina and massage are more popular than acupuncture. In

other countries such as Brazil and Italy its the opposite. I wonder if Tuina

and massage are less popular in these hands on societies. Any one know?

 

Attilio

 

 

 

briansbeard [brian_s_beard]

18 October 2004 17:39

Chinese Medicine

excuse me, who's the best? Was fused cervical vertabrae

 

 

 

 

I don't understand why in a professional forum such as this we

continue to have discussions over who's the best. One person gets

better results through tuina, another gets better results through

acupuncture or herbs or whatever else. Does that mean one style is

superior over another? The reason these styles exist is because they

work to some degree for something and have survived because of this.

Is anything in life black or white? Does anyone in this forum know

everyone in the world who is getting treated with every modality and

is qualifed to make a blanket statement about what is best? We all

have very limited perspectives. Why can't we accept this?

 

Just because they don't happen to work for a specific individual from

a specific practitioner doesn't really mean a whole lot to me, All

practitioners get great results from some of their patients. A

different practitioner even in the same modality will get great

results from some of the people that the other one wasn't able to.

When you start looking across modalitites it gets more complicated. A

missing factor from this that no one mentions is the practitioner -

patient relationship which I believe further influences the outcome.

 

So I'm going to relate a story to illustrate that qigong can actually

work. This in no way means I think qigong is the best - again, best

according to what? It also doesn't mean that I believe that every

case reduces down to a simple blockage. It does however serve to

illustrate the power of a technique from a very qualified

practitioner. This practitioner uses a very simplistic diagnosis for

this particular case which might easily be dismissed in this forum

due to its simplicity. But because he's been doing it for 50 years

and purportedly teaching people in 28 countries, people might be more

likely to think twice before discounting the technique based on

simplicity. I'm not trying to appear as wearing the blockage

perspective on my sleeve, but this is to illustrate that people do

great things using this perspective.

 

So recently a qigong master and acupuncturist of 50 years came over

from china and treated an otherwise healthy woman in her 30's who had

contracted something that caused her lymph nodes to swell and further

progress to not having enough energy to walk, and had to be wheeled

around in a wheel chair. This was over a period of two months. Very

good western medicine doctors found nothing they could treat. After

one qigong treatment where she had to be helped on to the treatment

table, she got off of it and walked around and has been walking

around and improving ever since. The treatment he used (didn't see

it, but was relayed from an eye witness) was qigong.

 

The diagnosis was cold qi in the lower body and a blockage at the

waist. This rather simple diagnosis was from an acupuncturist of 50

years in china. So he swept qi down the body and pulled it out the

feet. The treatment, while simple, is not easy and requires alot of

internal training.

 

And does this technique work for every single person that walks into

his clinic? Well, I haven't asked any of them but most likely not.

 

--brian

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Attilio writes:

 

As I said before, having just

had a large course of Tuina I found its treatment effect was short

lived. A

friend of mine, a Tuina/massage expert also have a large amount of

Tuina

from a experienced and respected masseur for a long term back

problem. It

was not effective. Therefore, I still agree that acupuncture and

herbs are

superior to Tuina and acupressure.

 

Brian:

 

The reason I was compelled to write the preceding post was due to

what seems like a blanket statement at the end of the above

paragraph. It's perfectly fine that you've had the experiences you've

had, but it doesn't mean that it will be superior medicine for

everyone. Some people may get better relief from tuina. All I'm

saying is, the possibility exists.

 

 

Attilio:

>

> Your case is interesting but you cannot always quote from a master's

> experience and then dictate it to the whole field. Of course, a

master in

> any discipline of TCM will have almost miracle results. I've seen an

> acupuncturist in Beijing treat stroke patients who couldn't walk or

talk

> with amazing results, i.e. walking and talking again in the space

of a few

> months.

>

 

Brian:

 

I was very careful in my wording to try and not make a blanket to the

whole field, in fact tried to go out of my way to explicitly not do

so.

 

Attilio:

 

> A Qi Gong master can give their Qi to the patient and help the

Zangfu, Qi,

> Blood, Yin and Yang in a number of ways. Their not simply removing

> blockages! Qi is a number of factors and doesn't just run through

the

> Jinglou and get blocked. Qi Gong is a perfect preventative art for

us mere

> mortals aswell as a treatment art for those more experienced

practitioners.

>

 

Brian:

 

I agree that from a TCM view there seems to be more things at work

than just a blockage. This would follow from looking at the effects

they attain. But from their perspective maybe there's not. For

whatever reason these other dimensions in TCM don't get discussed

outright, perhaps because practitioners just don't want to discuss

all of the details. Or maybe these other facets don't really matter

that much when practicing qigong. If qi is your primary vehicle you

use, then the vocabulary of the modality is to move it around from

one place to another, or make it flow where it doesn't, add it where

it's deficient and take away from excess. These differences in

terminology are what lead to the difficulties of trying to make

complete sense out of them.

[Guest guest]

Hi Brian and Attilio,

> Brian:

>

> The reason I was compelled to write the preceding post was due to

> what seems like a blanket statement at the end of the above

> paragraph. It's perfectly fine that you've had the experiences you've

> had, but it doesn't mean that it will be superior medicine for

> everyone. Some people may get better relief from tuina. All I'm

> saying is, the possibility exists.

>

 

Not only does the possibility exist, - but the real life examples

exist - in droves. At least around my neck of the woods. Now we can

all be hallucinating, but it is all in the Mind anyway. :-) Maybe it

is simply the difference in the way one is " touched " . I don't know.

 

Not everyone who takes Tuina/qigong treatment falls in love with it.

There are people move on looking for something else. Something that

will cure them. Those people I generally do not hear from again. For

them, Tuina/qigong was just a short stopover. For me and my friends,

it is a longer stopover. Everyone is different. They are figuring out

what is best for their lives and I am figuring out what is best for mine.

 

Regards,

Rich