Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 I use both Fire Needles and Needle Moxa on a regular basis in my clinic in the middle of Cowboy Country here in the US of A. I also do so on the Reservations and in third world countries and in the EU and Asia. My patients are quite accepting of these techniques no matter where they are. I use a Yuan Li needle for fire needle technique. It is the type of needle originaly intended for this and is composed of three different metals. These needles are 22 guage. I use Hua To Filiform handle needles for needle moxa. These range from 32 guage to 28 guage with 28 being my most common. Doc vote. - Register online to vote today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 I bought some fire needles back from China. There are 3 different sizes. I'm a little worried about the sterilisation of fire needles. In China they are autoclaved, but they don't arrive in pre-sterilised packs or can be effectively sterilised in the West. How do you sterilise your fire needles Doc or do you just use them once? Attilio Doc [Doc] 19 October 2004 05:32 Chinese Medicine Fire Needles and Needle Moxa I use both Fire Needles and Needle Moxa on a regular basis in my clinic in the middle of Cowboy Country here in the US of A. I also do so on the Reservations and in third world countries and in the EU and Asia. My patients are quite accepting of these techniques no matter where they are. I use a Yuan Li needle for fire needle technique. It is the type of needle originaly intended for this and is composed of three different metals. These needles are 22 guage. I use Hua To Filiform handle needles for needle moxa. These range from 32 guage to 28 guage with 28 being my most common. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Sadly I use my Yuan Li needles on one patient and then dispose of them. Luckily on my last visit to the PRC i was able to buy 1,000 of them for only $.12 ea. instead of the $1 that they cost here in the US. Doc Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote: I'm a little worried about the sterilisation of fire needles. In China they are autoclaved, but they don't arrive in pre-sterilised packs or can be effectively sterilised in the West. How do you sterilise your fire needles Doc or do you just use them once? Attilio vote. - Register online to vote today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 >--- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto escreveu: >I bought some fire needles back from China. There are 3 different sizes. I'm a little worried about the sterilisation of fire needles. In China they are autoclaved, but they don't arrive in pre-sterilised packs or can be effectively sterilised in the West. How do you sterilise your fire needles Doc or do you just use them once? >Attilio Hello Dr.Attilio, Now we have autoclave, etc, but in an epic chinese martial arts movie I saw some time ago, the hero received ac. with a long needle, thicker than the one's we now usually use(it was not a fire needle though), and it was sterilised with a flame. I think for a fire needle that should be a good method? Marcos _____ Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any acupuncture needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film! Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all bacteria, so why do you think a naked flame can? Attilio marcos [ishk18] 24 October 2004 19:42 Chinese Medicine RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa >--- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto escreveu: >I bought some fire needles back from China. There are 3 different sizes. I'm a little worried about the sterilisation of fire needles. In China they are autoclaved, but they don't arrive in pre-sterilised packs or can be effectively sterilised in the West. How do you sterilise your fire needles Doc or do you just use them once? >Attilio Hello Dr.Attilio, Now we have autoclave, etc, but in an epic chinese martial arts movie I saw some time ago, the hero received ac. with a long needle, thicker than the one's we now usually use(it was not a fire needle though), and it was sterilised with a flame. I think for a fire needle that should be a good method? Marcos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Well, autoclaves use heat, steam, chemicals, and sterilize materials that would perish or be harmed by direct fire. Otherwise I'll wager that any bacteria(virus, what have you) you can meet in clinical situations will be quite destroyed by it(remember a red hot needle). As for the prosaic 'source' of the technique, it was quite clear that this method must be quite a natural and effective one in rural areas of China(at least up to 19th.century, the time of the story the epic told), especially as you may not have access to any other 'modern' method of sterilization in some such situations. Marcos --- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto escreveu: Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any acupuncture needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film! Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all bacteria, so why do you think a naked flame can? Attilio marcos [ishk18] 24 October 2004 19:42 Chinese Medicine RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa >--- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto escreveu: >I bought some fire needles back from China. There are 3 different sizes. I'm a little worried about the sterilisation of fire needles. In China they are autoclaved, but they don't arrive in pre-sterilised packs or can be effectively sterilised in the West. How do you sterilise your fire needles Doc or do you just use them once? >Attilio Hello Dr.Attilio, Now we have autoclave, etc, but in an epic chinese martial arts movie I saw some time ago, the hero received ac. with a long needle, thicker than the one's we now usually use(it was not a fire needle though), and it was sterilised with a flame. I think for a fire needle that should be a good method? Marcos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 If autoclaving isn't good enough for acupuncture needles, no one should ever go to a dentist. Matt - Attilio D'Alberto Chinese Medicine Sunday, October 24, 2004 12:51 PM RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any acupuncture needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film! Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all bacteria, so why do you think a naked flame can? Attilio marcos [ishk18] 24 October 2004 19:42 Chinese Medicine RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa >--- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto escreveu: >I bought some fire needles back from China. There are 3 different sizes. I'm a little worried about the sterilisation of fire needles. In China they are autoclaved, but they don't arrive in pre-sterilised packs or can be effectively sterilised in the West. How do you sterilise your fire needles Doc or do you just use them once? >Attilio Hello Dr.Attilio, Now we have autoclave, etc, but in an epic chinese martial arts movie I saw some time ago, the hero received ac. with a long needle, thicker than the one's we now usually use(it was not a fire needle though), and it was sterilised with a flame. I think for a fire needle that should be a good method? Marcos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Marco and all, it is beyond comprehension that a licensed acupuncturist would even Consider using fire to sterilize a needle. Where do you live, Marco? There are laws that govern this quite well. Stick with the law or get your license revoked! Needles are NOT to be reused for any reason. Pam Price > > Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any acupuncture > needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film! > > Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all bacteria, so why do > you think a naked flame can? > > Attilio > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Hi Pam, Good that you asked that, lets get the record straight; I did not say I used 'fire sterilised needles'(for the record, I use disposable, throw-away after use!), I was commenting on the fact that a chinese film brought to my attention that it was(and possibly still is) done in rural China. By the way, you say that 'it is beyond comprehension' to consider such, did you really read what Attilio wrote, that autoclave DOESN'T do a thorough job? and that a visit to a DENTIST is fraught with perils? And that a FLAME(yes, innocent looking fire!)can and does sterilize, when it doesnt melt or burn what is put in it? I am not advocating fire(I prefer disposable anyway), but am pointing out that it may be BETTER than autoclave, etc, in the case of FIRE NEEDLES. And last but not least: yes we have laws that cover these things quite well, don't worry:-) Marcos --- Pam Price <needledoc escreveu: Marco and all, it is beyond comprehension that a licensed acupuncturist would even Consider using fire to sterilize a needle. Where do you live, Marco? There are laws that govern this quite well. Stick with the law or get your license revoked! Needles are NOT to be reused for any reason. Pam Price > > Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any acupuncture > needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film! > > Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all bacteria, so why do > you think a naked flame can? > > Attilio _____ Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 --- marcos <ishk18 wrote: >I was commenting on the fact that a chinese film brought to my attention that it was(and possibly still is) done in rural China.< Some of my teachers used to tell us about the old days when professional practitioners used to " sterilize " needles by dipping them in the patient's saliva or by running them through the patients hair Sifu Chen used to " sterilize " his reusable needles by soaking them in alchol so maybe someone did or does use a naked flame but it would still be foolish IMHO. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I saw Jet Lee put a woman to sleep by inserting a needle into her neck. Doesn't mean I'm gonna do it, does it? Even in China, Fire needles are autoclaved then heated before insertion. And no, putting a naked flame to a fire needle is no better than using autoclave. You might aswell pee on the needle as urine acts as a disinfectant. Attilio marcos [ishk18] 25 October 2004 06:01 Chinese Medicine Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa Hi Pam, Good that you asked that, lets get the record straight; I did not say I used 'fire sterilised needles'(for the record, I use disposable, throw-away after use!), I was commenting on the fact that a chinese film brought to my attention that it was(and possibly still is) done in rural China. By the way, you say that 'it is beyond comprehension' to consider such, did you really read what Attilio wrote, that autoclave DOESN'T do a thorough job? and that a visit to a DENTIST is fraught with perils? And that a FLAME(yes, innocent looking fire!)can and does sterilize, when it doesnt melt or burn what is put in it? I am not advocating fire(I prefer disposable anyway), but am pointing out that it may be BETTER than autoclave, etc, in the case of FIRE NEEDLES. And last but not least: yes we have laws that cover these things quite well, don't worry:-) Marcos --- Pam Price <needledoc escreveu: Marco and all, it is beyond comprehension that a licensed acupuncturist would even Consider using fire to sterilize a needle. Where do you live, Marco? There are laws that govern this quite well. Stick with the law or get your license revoked! Needles are NOT to be reused for any reason. Pam Price > > Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any acupuncture > needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film! > > Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all bacteria, so why do > you think a naked flame can? > > Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I try not to Matt. I don't understand the logic of a dentist finding a small hole, then drilling it so its 10 times as big and now has really damaged the tooth, then filling it with mercury? Go figure? Dentistry is the most barbaric healthcare care practice on the planet and the most profitable. Attilio Matt Bauer [acu.guy] 25 October 2004 01:47 Chinese Medicine Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa If autoclaving isn't good enough for acupuncture needles, no one should ever go to a dentist. Matt - Attilio D'Alberto Chinese Medicine Sunday, October 24, 2004 12:51 PM RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any acupuncture needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film! Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all bacteria, so why do you think a naked flame can? Attilio marcos [ishk18] 24 October 2004 19:42 Chinese Medicine RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa >--- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto escreveu: >I bought some fire needles back from China. There are 3 different sizes. I'm a little worried about the sterilisation of fire needles. In China they are autoclaved, but they don't arrive in pre-sterilised packs or can be effectively sterilised in the West. How do you sterilise your fire needles Doc or do you just use them once? >Attilio Hello Dr.Attilio, Now we have autoclave, etc, but in an epic chinese martial arts movie I saw some time ago, the hero received ac. with a long needle, thicker than the one's we now usually use(it was not a fire needle though), and it was sterilised with a flame. I think for a fire needle that should be a good method? Marcos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Thanks, Marco. Autoclaves are generally checked periodically be a professional company just for the reason that Atillio mentioned. At least, at the GP's office I used to work, that's what was done. P Price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Okay, if you say so, then so be it! Fire needles better be autoclaved! Marcos --- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto escreveu: I saw Jet Lee put a woman to sleep by inserting a needle into her neck. Doesn't mean I'm gonna do it, does it? Even in China, Fire needles are autoclaved then heated before insertion. And no, putting a naked flame to a fire needle is no better than using autoclave. You might aswell pee on the needle as urine acts as a disinfectant. Attilio marcos [ishk18] 25 October 2004 06:01 Chinese Medicine Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa Hi Pam, Good that you asked that, lets get the record straight; I did not say I used 'fire sterilised needles'(for the record, I use disposable, throw-away after use!), I was commenting on the fact that a chinese film brought to my attention that it was(and possibly still is) done in rural China. By the way, you say that 'it is beyond comprehension' to consider such, did you really read what Attilio wrote, that autoclave DOESN'T do a thorough job? and that a visit to a DENTIST is fraught with perils? And that a FLAME(yes, innocent looking fire!)can and does sterilize, when it doesnt melt or burn what is put in it? I am not advocating fire(I prefer disposable anyway), but am pointing out that it may be BETTER than autoclave, etc, in the case of FIRE NEEDLES. And last but not least: yes we have laws that cover these things quite well, don't worry:-) Marcos --- Pam Price <needledoc escreveu: Marco and all, it is beyond comprehension that a licensed acupuncturist would even Consider using fire to sterilize a needle. Where do you live, Marco? There are laws that govern this quite well. Stick with the law or get your license revoked! Needles are NOT to be reused for any reason. Pam Price > > Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any acupuncture > needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film! > > Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all bacteria, so why do > you think a naked flame can? > > Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Hello Atillio, I got a little tired of this thread, but your remark that " peeing " on the needle is as good as autoclave, flame, etc, struck me as so " scientifically objective " , that I had second thoughts on the matter. I really doubt you(or anyone) will find bacteria, virus or WHATEVER alive on a needle after it has been heated red-hot over a flame. That's better than autoclave(not to mention pee!). Of course, even better is a NEW sterilised(but by which method?) needle(disposable). regards, Marcos " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 am RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa I saw Jet Lee put a woman to sleep by inserting a needle into her neck. Doesn't mean I'm gonna do it, does it? Even in China, Fire needles are autoclaved then heated before insertion. And no, putting a naked flame to a fire needle is no better than using autoclave. You might aswell pee on the needle as urine acts as a disinfectant. Attilio marcos [ishk18] 25 October 2004 06:01 Chinese Medicine Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa Hi Pam, Good that you asked that, lets get the record straight; I did not say I used 'fire sterilised needles'(for the record, I use disposable, throw-away after use!), I was commenting on the fact that a chinese film brought to my attention that it was(and possibly still is) done in rural China. By the way, you say that 'it is beyond comprehension' to consider such, did you really read what Attilio wrote, that autoclave DOESN'T do a thorough job? and that a visit to a DENTIST is fraught with perils? And that a FLAME(yes, innocent looking fire!)can and does sterilize, when it doesnt melt or burn what is put in it? I am not advocating fire(I prefer disposable anyway), but am pointing out that it may be BETTER than autoclave, etc, in the case of FIRE NEEDLES. And last but not least: yes we have laws that cover these things quite well, don't worry:-) Marcos --- Pam Price <needledoc@s...> escreveu: Marco and all, it is beyond comprehension that a licensed acupuncturist would even Consider using fire to sterilize a needle. Where do you live, Marco? There are laws that govern this quite well. Stick with the law or get your license revoked! Needles are NOT to be reused for any reason. Pam Price > > Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any acupuncture > needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film! > > Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all bacteria, so why do > you think a naked flame can? > > Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Marcos, Heating a needle over an open flame until it is red hot is certainly NOT better than an autoclave. The reason pressurized steam is recognized by experts as the preferred method of sterilization is its ability to penetrate the cell walls of microorganisms. I don't care how hot you heat something, unless you can penetrate the cell walls you run the risk of the microorganism surviving. Of course, if you can show any research that describes how heating needles red-hot over an open flame works better, I will stand corrected. In the mean time - please only use disposable needles on your patients. - Matt Bauer - marcos Chinese Medicine Sunday, October 31, 2004 6:45 AM RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa Hello Atillio, I got a little tired of this thread, but your remark that " peeing " on the needle is as good as autoclave, flame, etc, struck me as so " scientifically objective " , that I had second thoughts on the matter. I really doubt you(or anyone) will find bacteria, virus or WHATEVER alive on a needle after it has been heated red-hot over a flame. That's better than autoclave(not to mention pee!). Of course, even better is a NEW sterilised(but by which method?) needle(disposable). regards, Marcos " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 am RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa I saw Jet Lee put a woman to sleep by inserting a needle into her neck. Doesn't mean I'm gonna do it, does it? Even in China, Fire needles are autoclaved then heated before insertion. And no, putting a naked flame to a fire needle is no better than using autoclave. You might aswell pee on the needle as urine acts as a disinfectant. Attilio marcos [ishk18] 25 October 2004 06:01 Chinese Medicine Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa Hi Pam, Good that you asked that, lets get the record straight; I did not say I used 'fire sterilised needles'(for the record, I use disposable, throw-away after use!), I was commenting on the fact that a chinese film brought to my attention that it was(and possibly still is) done in rural China. By the way, you say that 'it is beyond comprehension' to consider such, did you really read what Attilio wrote, that autoclave DOESN'T do a thorough job? and that a visit to a DENTIST is fraught with perils? And that a FLAME(yes, innocent looking fire!)can and does sterilize, when it doesnt melt or burn what is put in it? I am not advocating fire(I prefer disposable anyway), but am pointing out that it may be BETTER than autoclave, etc, in the case of FIRE NEEDLES. And last but not least: yes we have laws that cover these things quite well, don't worry:-) Marcos --- Pam Price <needledoc@s...> escreveu: Marco and all, it is beyond comprehension that a licensed acupuncturist would even Consider using fire to sterilize a needle. Where do you live, Marco? There are laws that govern this quite well. Stick with the law or get your license revoked! Needles are NOT to be reused for any reason. Pam Price > > Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any acupuncture > needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film! > > Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all bacteria, so why do > you think a naked flame can? > > Attilio http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 One needs heat under pressure. A flame is hot but at the same atmospheric pressure as the needle. The process simply clears all microorganisms sensitive to heat at that particular degree. Very many others may remain valid as they fall outside that spectrum. In fact there are microbes in the very well of a volcano, these which are thermophyillic in nature. In autoclave the ones which may escape heat are done away with by sheer pressure of so many kgs per square cm. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. - " marcos " <ishk18 <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, October 31, 2004 7:45 AM RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa > > > Hello Atillio, > I got a little tired of this thread, but your remark that > " peeing " on the needle is as good as autoclave, flame, etc, > struck me as so " scientifically objective " , that I had second > thoughts on the matter. > I really doubt you(or anyone) will find bacteria, virus or > WHATEVER alive on a needle after it has been heated red-hot over > a flame. > That's better than autoclave(not to mention pee!). > Of course, even better is a NEW sterilised(but by which method?) > needle(disposable). > > regards, > Marcos > > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> > Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 am > RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa > > I saw Jet Lee put a woman to sleep by inserting a needle into > her neck. > Doesn't mean I'm gonna do it, does it? > > Even in China, Fire needles are autoclaved then heated before > insertion. And > no, putting a naked flame to a fire needle is no better than > using > autoclave. You might aswell pee on the needle as urine acts as a > disinfectant. > > Attilio > > > marcos [ishk18] > 25 October 2004 06:01 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa > > Hi Pam, > Good that you asked that, lets get the record straight; I did not > say I used 'fire sterilised needles'(for the record, I use > disposable, throw-away after use!), I was commenting on the fact > that a chinese film brought to my attention that it was(and > possibly still is) done in rural China. By the way, you say that > 'it is beyond comprehension' to consider such, did you really > read what Attilio wrote, that autoclave DOESN'T do a thorough > job? and that a visit to a DENTIST is fraught with perils? And > that a FLAME(yes, innocent looking fire!)can and does sterilize, > when it doesnt melt or burn what is put in it? I am not > advocating fire(I prefer disposable anyway), but am pointing out > that it may be BETTER than autoclave, etc, in the case of FIRE > NEEDLES. > And last but not least: yes we have laws that cover these things > quite well, don't worry:-) > > Marcos > > --- Pam Price <needledoc@s...> escreveu: > > Marco and all, it is beyond comprehension that a licensed > acupuncturist > would even Consider using fire to sterilize a needle. Where do > you live, > Marco? There are laws that govern this quite well. Stick with the > law or get > your license revoked! Needles are NOT to be reused for any > reason. > Pam Price > > >> >> Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any > acupuncture >> needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film! >> >> Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all bacteria, > so why do >> you think a naked flame can? >> >> Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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