Controlled Trials in TCM Stupid comment?

[Guest guest]

Chris,

 

Regarding setting you up Sammy....I quoted you in context. It was on this

same subject of WM v CM where you suggested giving aspirin to a sufferer of

a severe heart attack or stroke rather than go to hospital. If people on

this forum took you seriously (and many would, because there is truth in

some of what you say) they could offer this same advice to someone in this

actual situation. The reality is giving an aspirin to someone who is

suffering a stroke can dramatically increase their chances of dying. Thats

why when dealing with WM it is best to leave these things to the

professionals.

 

Sammy, sorry if I insulted you by disagreeing with you. I'm sure your paper

is very good - please send it my way.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

..

-

" sammy_bates " <sammy_bates

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:32 AM

Re: Re: Controlled Trials in TCM Stupid comment?

 

 

>

>

> Chris,

>

> The person who recently introduced the statement that " WM kills many

> people " was trying to set me up by quoting something I had said months ago

> out of context. Simple as that.

>

> I have already mentioned my offer to give a copy of the paper I have

> written on prostate cancer for review to anyone interested. I have also

> mentioned the fact that Sophie Chen is about to release a second version

> of PC-SPES. Hasn't anyone got any imagination ?

>

> Sammy.

> -

> Musiclear

> Chinese Medicine

> Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:52 PM

> Re: Re: Controlled Trials in TCM Stupid comment?

>

> In a message dated 12/29/2004 3:36:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> sammy_bates writes:

> > Given that it seems to be your opinion that WM kills many people,

>

> Sorry, but I never said such a stupid thing as that.

>

>

> One persons stupid comment is another persons truth????

>

> Although western intervention certainly has helped many and saved

> many

> lives,,,,,,, so too has western methodology killed many who otherwise

> would have

> survived for many years.

>

> Although it may be somewhat simplistic to say that WM has killed

> people,

> it is a very true fact supported by statistics from the WM profession

> themselves.

>

> So, Sammy, if you would not say a stupid thing like WM kills people,,

> I

> guess I will.

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

As a physician for 40 years and a member of many professional

organizations and Internet groups for professionals – I am shocked

that at this group supposedly professional people act in such an

unprofessional and uncivil manner. In my career I have never seen

professional discourse at such a low level as is exhibited by some

here. I have never seen one professional call another as `stupid' –

such things are simply not done in mature circles – this is

adolescent behavior not mature intellectual discourse.

 

Many people here dismiss others and their comments with gratuitous

insults and inappropriate observations. I recently posted what I felt

was a thoughtful analysis of the diversity of medical approaches –

but was immediately attacked as being uninformed and naive. I would

gladly hold up my own experience as a healer to any other persons and

would freely give my intellectual analysis for my conclusions to any

who asked but to be simply dismissed by people who not only do not

understand my premises but who as well have a knee jerk reaction to

attack others for attack sake – this is shocking in a professional's

discussion group.

 

The major criticism that traditional medical people make about

western practitioners is that they do not have the depth of

understanding of the science that they are pursuing to be effective

practitioners – they do not have the necessary cultural and

intellectual maturity to practice medicine. Admittedly this is also

a prejudice but it does refer to the issues that I am referring to

here. In my professional career I have never seen even one incidence

where professionals insulted another professional in a public forum.

For western practioners to receive the respect that they would like

to have as well as the respect that our profession deserves – then

they will have to conduct themselves in a respectable, mature, and

professional manner.

[Guest guest]

This is a response to Vinod's comments where I will tie in a few other threads.

First, we can take the route advocated by Vinod and denude reasonable discourse

to the point of its emasculation and enfeeblement. A knowledge of history and

social reality tell us this is the way groups go in order to first stabilise

before they atrophy.

 

Indeed, 'fear of insulting one's peers' is probably THE main force behind the

conservatism and inertia of medical institutions. This is not a criticism of WM

incidentally, it applies wherever self important people get together to mutually

massage their ego's at the expense of patients.

 

Before anyone goes off in a huff imagining I have insulted them, I invite them

to read my account of the way prostate cancer has been handled for the last 60

years or so in the west, and how it is increasingly being handled elsewhere in

the world.

 

I said what follows over a year ago when I joined this group but very very few

have taken me up on the ideas. Phil indeed expressed an interest in prostate

cancer and we had a discussion about it months ago. He introduced me to Todd

Luger's group so he could cross post all my emails there. Incidentally, I also

found 's group and in particular an insufferable elitist.

 

I will repeat what I said then, although I will not quote myself verbatim. This

is indeed the reason why I accepted Attilio's invitation at the time to join the

group: The TCM practitioner community has a unique opportunity to show its

mettle by addressing the issue of prostate cancer treatment through herbal

remedies. No 'drugs' just herbs. No secret estrogens, or PC-SPES look-alikes,

just herbs. The TCM community has the opportunity to show it can do something

that WM has consistently failed to do - cure prostate cancer. You still have a

chance, but the opposition will catch you up and overtake you if you do not make

an initiative. I am not holding my breath after what I have seen. However, here

is a quote from my PC group (and my response in part) which I think may give you

some pointers:

 

> We talked with our ND last week about doing T replacement. He said they are

doing it in their clinic for one old guy with prostate cancer who had been

through all the " normal " things, until he obviously had 1 foot in the grave last

Spring, i.e. could only shuffle, hunched over, in pain, etc. Our ND suggested

that he do something " daring " and give him some T replacement just for Q of L.

The man, expected to die within days, perked up, walks fine now, and is still

kicking. I asked if that meant that Ed could not get T replacement unless he

was in the same debilitating state as this other man.

 

Here the ND rationalises his fear of moving out of the incestuous honey pot his

urology practice in bound to through his 'professional concerns' ..

 

> Our ND said lawsuits were the fear, even if I, and our kids did not sue him.

He said some far distant relative could sue him if Ed happened to die someday,

because that distant relative could dig up the records, get plenty of other docs

to say that giving T was a stupid malpractice kind of thing to do.... and there

you go. This ND believes T replacement works, but won't be caught helping us

with it.

 

That is rubbish of course. Over here in the UK, my surgeon had no problems

Rx-ing me T patches a couple of months ago. I just gave him a verbal commitment

that I would take responsibility for the consequences should things get out of

hand. But then he knows me now after nearly ten years - he expected me to die

several years ago such was the severity of my disease when I went to him - and

so when I talk now, he listens. I am still here of course after my little

'experiment'. Mind you, I don't always get my way and I have to back up all my

requests with solid evidence based reasoning. It is all there is you want it,

but I am not going to flog a dead horse any longer.

 

Good night.

 

Sammy

 

G.A. " Sammy " Bates

BA, BSc, MSc, PGCE.

 

 

-

vinod3x3

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, December 30, 2004 8:20 PM

Re: Controlled Trials in TCM Stupid comment?

 

 

As a physician for 40 years and a member of many professional

organizations and Internet groups for professionals - I am shocked

that at this group supposedly professional people act in such an

unprofessional and uncivil manner. In my career I have never seen

professional discourse at such a low level as is exhibited by some

here. I have never seen one professional call another as `stupid' -

such things are simply not done in mature circles - this is

adolescent behavior not mature intellectual discourse.

 

Many people here dismiss others and their comments with gratuitous

insults and inappropriate observations. I recently posted what I felt

was a thoughtful analysis of the diversity of medical approaches -

but was immediately attacked as being uninformed and naive. I would

gladly hold up my own experience as a healer to any other persons and

would freely give my intellectual analysis for my conclusions to any

who asked but to be simply dismissed by people who not only do not

understand my premises but who as well have a knee jerk reaction to

attack others for attack sake - this is shocking in a professional's

discussion group.

 

The major criticism that traditional medical people make about

western practitioners is that they do not have the depth of

understanding of the science that they are pursuing to be effective

practitioners - they do not have the necessary cultural and

intellectual maturity to practice medicine. Admittedly this is also

a prejudice but it does refer to the issues that I am referring to

here. In my professional career I have never seen even one incidence

where professionals insulted another professional in a public forum.

For western practioners to receive the respect that they would like

to have as well as the respect that our profession deserves - then

they will have to conduct themselves in a respectable, mature, and

professional manner.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your comment and visability. I have seen doctor bashing

up close by people who should know better and in company of physician

who handled it well. We have seen physicians in my area maintain a

hostile posture toward the acupuncture profession but maintain

civility with individuals. Passion and zeal can often lead one amok.

I believe that a dose of humility and tolerance would benefit this

profession. Thank you again for your caution. Andy

 

Chinese Medicine , vinod3x3

wrote:

>

>

> As a physician for 40 years and a member of many professional

> organizations and Internet groups for professionals – I am shocked

> that at this group supposedly professional people act in such an

> unprofessional and uncivil manner. In my career I have never seen

> professional discourse at such a low level as is exhibited by some

> here. I have never seen one professional call another as `stupid' –

> such things are simply not done in mature circles – this is

> adolescent behavior not mature intellectual discourse.

>

> Many people here dismiss others and their comments with gratuitous

> insults and inappropriate observations. I recently posted what I

felt

> was a thoughtful analysis of the diversity of medical approaches –

> but was immediately attacked as being uninformed and naive. I would

> gladly hold up my own experience as a healer to any other persons

and

> would freely give my intellectual analysis for my conclusions to

any

> who asked but to be simply dismissed by people who not only do not

> understand my premises but who as well have a knee jerk reaction to

> attack others for attack sake – this is shocking in a

professional's

> discussion group.

>

> The major criticism that traditional medical people make about

> western practitioners is that they do not have the depth of

> understanding of the science that they are pursuing to be effective

> practitioners – they do not have the necessary cultural and

> intellectual maturity to practice medicine. Admittedly this is

also

> a prejudice but it does refer to the issues that I am referring to

> here. In my professional career I have never seen even one

incidence

> where professionals insulted another professional in a public

forum.

> For western practioners to receive the respect that they would like

> to have as well as the respect that our profession deserves – then

> they will have to conduct themselves in a respectable, mature, and

> professional manner.

[Guest guest]

Sammy, I am interested in your paper on Prostate Cancer if you don't

mind sending it my way. Thanks, Andy--- In

Chinese Medicine , " sammy_bates "

<sammy_bates@b...> wrote:

>

> Chris,

>

> The person who recently introduced the statement that " WM kills

many people " was trying to set me up by quoting something I had said

months ago out of context. Simple as that.

>

> I have already mentioned my offer to give a copy of the paper I

have written on prostate cancer for review to anyone interested. I

have also mentioned the fact that Sophie Chen is about to release a

second version of PC-SPES. Hasn't anyone got any imagination ?

>

> Sammy.

> -

> Musiclear@a...

> Chinese Medicine

> Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:52 PM

> Re: Re: Controlled Trials in TCM Stupid comment?

>

> In a message dated 12/29/2004 3:36:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> sammy_bates@b... writes:

> > Given that it seems to be your opinion that WM kills many

people,

>

> Sorry, but I never said such a stupid thing as that.

>

>

> One persons stupid comment is another persons truth????

>

> Although western intervention certainly has helped many and

saved many

> lives,,,,,,, so too has western methodology killed many who

otherwise would have

> survived for many years.

>

> Although it may be somewhat simplistic to say that WM has

killed people,

> it is a very true fact supported by statistics from the WM

profession

> themselves.

>

> So, Sammy, if you would not say a stupid thing like WM kills

people,, I

> guess I will.

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

I would not discount this group as being any worse than the medical

profession at large, whose membership organization known as the AMA has

sought to imprison and eliminate other forms of care. This is much worse

than a ridiculous usage of slang, although I agree that it is not a very

respectful way to treat others. I would like to hear your response to the

fact that this type of AMA harassment continues. Why do physicians continue

to allow this by joining such a biased group? I think you were at the wrong

spot and got hit with someone¹s open and honest opinion without pretense.

People are people and angry people will use various methods to

release this anger, name calling is one of them. In the end, the concept

of professionalism is dehumanizing and in direct opposition to the role of

the healer. How did you get on this group if this is for TCM professionals

anyway?

Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

On 12/30/04 2:20 PM, " vinod3x3 " <vinod3x3 wrote:

 

>

>

> As a physician for 40 years and a member of many professional

> organizations and Internet groups for professionals – I am shocked

> that at this group supposedly professional people act in such an

> unprofessional and uncivil manner. In my career I have never seen

> professional discourse at such a low level as is exhibited by some

> here. I have never seen one professional call another as `stupid' –

> such things are simply not done in mature circles – this is

> adolescent behavior not mature intellectual discourse.

>

> Many people here dismiss others and their comments with gratuitous

> insults and inappropriate observations. I recently posted what I felt

> was a thoughtful analysis of the diversity of medical approaches –

> but was immediately attacked as being uninformed and naive. I would

> gladly hold up my own experience as a healer to any other persons and

> would freely give my intellectual analysis for my conclusions to any

> who asked but to be simply dismissed by people who not only do not

> understand my premises but who as well have a knee jerk reaction to

> attack others for attack sake – this is shocking in a professional's

> discussion group.

>

> The major criticism that traditional medical people make about

> western practitioners is that they do not have the depth of

> understanding of the science that they are pursuing to be effective

> practitioners – they do not have the necessary cultural and

> intellectual maturity to practice medicine. Admittedly this is also

> a prejudice but it does refer to the issues that I am referring to

> here. In my professional career I have never seen even one incidence

> where professionals insulted another professional in a public forum.

> For western practioners to receive the respect that they would like

> to have as well as the respect that our profession deserves – then

> they will have to conduct themselves in a respectable, mature, and

> professional manner.

[Guest guest]

-

Chinese Medicine , vinod3x3

wrote:

>

>

> As a physician for 40 years and a member of many professional

> organizations and Internet groups for professionals - I am shocked

> that at this group supposedly professional people act in such an

> unprofessional and uncivil manner. In my career I have never seen

> professional discourse at such a low level as is exhibited by some

> here. I have never seen one professional call another as `stupid' -

> such things are simply not done in mature circles - this is

> adolescent behavior not mature intellectual discourse.

>

 

Boy, you and I hang out at different places. In my 10 years as a physician,

I've been called a lot of different things by other physicians, including

quack!

 

In a number of professional e-mail lists to which I , there is no

lack of, shall we say, uncivility. Part of it is simply due to the nature of

the communications medium, part of it is that we physicians are no different

than any other group of people.

 

It sounds like you might be new to some of these discussion groups. Don't

get too upset about what people say on the listserve, remember that the only

people whose opinion truly counts are your patients.

 

Avery L. Jenkins, DC, DACBN, FIAMA

Chiropractic Physician

Diplomate, American Clinical Board of Nutrition

Fellow, International Academy of Medical Acupuncture

Kent, CT

www.docaltmed.com

 

 

" Life expands and contracts in proportion to one's courage. " -- Anais Nin

[Guest guest]

sammy_bates wrote:

<snip>

> That is rubbish of course. Over here in the UK, my surgeon had no

> problems Rx-ing me T patches a couple of months ago. I just gave him

> a verbal commitment that I would take responsibility for the

> consequences should things get out of hand. But then he knows me now

> after nearly ten years - he expected me to die several years ago such

> was the severity of my disease when I went to him - and so when I

> talk now, he listens. I am still here of course after my little

> 'experiment'. Mind you, I don't always get my way and I have to back

> up all my requests with solid evidence based reasoning. It is all

> there is you want it, but I am not going to flog a dead horse any

> longer.

 

Hi Sammy!

 

" T replacement " ? Testosterone? This is outside of my scope of (TCM)

practice so you will forgive the questions - what could go wrong? Might

the cancer go wild?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

 

Your question about 'the cancer going wild' is based on the false premise that

prostate cancer responds to androgen in a simple dose dependent manner from zero

serum concentration to supra physiological doses. If you look at the image at

the following URL:

 

http://www.prostateman.org/images/hormesis.gif

 

... You will see there is not a neat straight line proportional relationship

linking tumour and androgen. There is a biphasic relationship with a

characteristic 'inverted U' shape. Hormesis (from the Greek, same root as

hormone) is the term given to the phenomenon where a small amount of substance

has a proliferative effect, whereas a larger amount of the same substance has a

retarding effect on growth.

 

That is what I base my paper - and my praxis - on.

 

Cheers,

 

Sammy.

 

 

-

Pete Theisen

Chinese Medicine

Friday, December 31, 2004 7:32 PM

Re: Re: Controlled Trials in TCM Stupid comment?

 

sammy_bates wrote:

<snip>

> That is rubbish of course. Over here in the UK, my surgeon had no

> problems Rx-ing me T patches a couple of months ago. I just gave him

> a verbal commitment that I would take responsibility for the

> consequences should things get out of hand. But then he knows me now

> after nearly ten years - he expected me to die several years ago such

> was the severity of my disease when I went to him - and so when I

> talk now, he listens. I am still here of course after my little

> 'experiment'. Mind you, I don't always get my way and I have to back

> up all my requests with solid evidence based reasoning. It is all

> there is you want it, but I am not going to flog a dead horse any

> longer.

 

Hi Sammy!

 

" T replacement " ? Testosterone? This is outside of my scope of (TCM)

practice so you will forgive the questions - what could go wrong? Might

the cancer go wild?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Could I just add, if anyone wishes to download a copy for review of the paper

referred to here

 

http://www.prostateman.org/images/hormesis.html

 

... would they please contact me by private email. Thanks.

 

On another note, thanks Attilio for you sterling work managing the list.

 

Thanks too for the reality check - 2 minutes silence at midnight on New Years in

Trafalgar Square just passed is a reminder this Indian Ocean disaster is

unprecedented in modern times.

 

Wishing you all a Happy New Year.

 

Sammy.

 

 

 

-

sammy_bates

Chinese Medicine

Friday, December 31, 2004 10:59 PM

Re: Re: Controlled Trials in TCM Stupid comment?

 

 

 

 

Hi Pete,

 

Your question about 'the cancer going wild' is based on the false premise that

prostate cancer responds to androgen in a simple dose dependent manner from zero

serum concentration to supra physiological doses. If you look at the image at

the following URL:

 

http://www.prostateman.org/images/hormesis.gif

 

.. You will see there is not a neat straight line proportional relationship

linking tumour and androgen. There is a biphasic relationship with a

characteristic 'inverted U' shape. Hormesis (from the Greek, same root as

hormone) is the term given to the phenomenon where a small amount of substance

has a proliferative effect, whereas a larger amount of the same substance has a

retarding effect on growth.

 

That is what I base my paper - and my praxis - on.

 

Cheers,

 

Sammy.

 

 

-

Pete Theisen

Chinese Medicine

Friday, December 31, 2004 7:32 PM

Re: Re: Controlled Trials in TCM Stupid comment?

 

sammy_bates wrote:

<snip>

> That is rubbish of course. Over here in the UK, my surgeon had no

> problems Rx-ing me T patches a couple of months ago. I just gave him

> a verbal commitment that I would take responsibility for the

> consequences should things get out of hand. But then he knows me now

> after nearly ten years - he expected me to die several years ago such

> was the severity of my disease when I went to him - and so when I

> talk now, he listens. I am still here of course after my little

> 'experiment'. Mind you, I don't always get my way and I have to back

> up all my requests with solid evidence based reasoning. It is all

> there is you want it, but I am not going to flog a dead horse any

> longer.

 

Hi Sammy!

 

" T replacement " ? Testosterone? This is outside of my scope of (TCM)

practice so you will forgive the questions - what could go wrong? Might

the cancer go wild?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

sammy_bates wrote:

<snip>

 

> false premise that prostate cancer responds to androgen in a simple

> dose dependent manner

 

Hi Sammy!

 

So if they take away all testosterone there might be less growth of the

tumor but the patient gets really, really sick?

 

What is the URL of your paper? Sounds interesting.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Pete,

 

Quite so. Castration gets immediate results (i.e. is a quick fix). The long term

effects however are devastating. This was never a problem for older men Dx'd PC

who had mean life expectancy < 5 years anyway. BUT with the advent of PSA

testing and much earlier ages of diagnosis, The problems of living without

androgen are magnified when the preferred castration therapy is adopted.

 

> What is the URL of your paper? Sounds interesting.

 

My paper is not public domain, it is protected by Copyright. However I can

release a copy to anyone who agrees to review it for me. If you agree to this

you will need to contact me privately and I will arrange a download URL for you

to use. The paper is in MS Word format.

 

Cheers,

 

Sammy.

-

Pete Theisen

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, January 01, 2005 2:37 AM

Re: Re: Controlled Trials in TCM Stupid comment?

 

 

 

 

sammy_bates wrote:

<snip>

 

> false premise that prostate cancer responds to androgen in a simple

> dose dependent manner

 

Hi Sammy!

 

So if they take away all testosterone there might be less growth of the

tumor but the patient gets really, really sick?

 

What is the URL of your paper? Sounds interesting.

 

Regards,

 

Pete