Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 How do you know these standard formulas would actually give any relief to the chief complaint in a timely fashion? >>>>Todd how do you know that any of the patterns provided by any of the other texts yield good or any results at all? You are assuming that these patterns are not just more theoretical generalizations. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not sufficient to treat most illnesses. And in some cases, maintenance or palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. In which case one not only cannot rely solely on TCM, but must actually coordinate with MDs to achieve the optimum clinical success. I know others will contend that TCM alone is sufficient in all or most cases, but the evidence is not convincing to me. >>>>>That must be the conclusion of anyone that is honest as it is clearly evident in TCM clinics in the US and China as well Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 I would agree that one must, in many cases address branch symptoms, and not JUST focus on the core imbalance (root pattern)... But I do think that TCM is clear about this. When one consults a 'disease' or 'CC' in an internal medicine book it is my impression that both are usually addressed simultaneously. For example, dan zhi xiao yao san might be a base Rx, but to that, symptomatic based herbs are added to address the tip. I do not get the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. But granted I have seen material in English that does suggest this over-simplified approach... Furthermore, I do agree with you that sometimes Western Medicine might address these branch symptoms quicker and more effectively. I personally always modify formulas to (hopefully) address both, and I find most conditions (at least that I see) can be helped with TCM... Maybe you could mention some conditions that you have seen that TCM cannot handle (besides the obvious acute emergency conditions)... -Jason > > > Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:01 AM > > pattern diagnosis > > > > I was thinking about Bob's repeated admonition to do pattern diagnosis > (assuming it was not a typo). I think many of us advocate that as the > first and last resort. Certainly, all lasting developments in > treating specific illnesses have begun with an understanding of > pattern dx. But Bob wouldn't write books like modern western diseases > and that ilk unless he also believed that the ideal situation was one > in which the physician possessed a detailed knowledge of disease from > both a western and eastern perspective. While one can certainly > achieve some clinical success with the sole recourse of pattern > diagnosis, I believe there are many conditions that will not yield to > such generalized treatment. > > This approach is certainly ideal for patients with numerous vague > symptoms. But for those with a distinct chief complaint or a well > defined syndrome, merely addressing the patterns that one sees may not > be sufficient. One might ask, " how can this be? " What is there > besides patterns. Well, there are the symptoms that by themselves > are branches, such as bleeding. Bleeding is not a pattern, but it > must be stopped. It is rooted in a pattern (heat or qi vacuity > usually). But addressing that root pattern is not often adequate. > One must treat the disease directly. How can the qi that holds the > blood ever be restored while one continues to bleed? > > Now the bleeding is an obvious example to which one would respond that > it could be easily addressed with a good knowledge of materia medica. > No specialized knowledge of disease treatment is necessary. But what > about those more obscure disorders like ITCHY EYES/mu yang? While it > might seem straightforward enough, are you sure you would be best > served by using everyone's favorite fallback, yin qiao san, in a wind > heat pattern. What would be your first choice in a wind cold? Would > you use long dan xie gan tang for a liver fire pattern? You might be > surpised at the options in this chapter in Sionneau. > > How do you know these standard formulas would actually give any relief > to the chief complaint in a timely fashion? We can perhaps assume > that they will achieve some goal in the long term. But do we have any > duty to offer symptom relief immediately. I think the presence of > nagging symptoms interfere with the recovery of health and must be > relieved in order to achieve lasting progress. And what about > prognosis. Without a knowledge of internal medicine and its emphasis > on branch as well as root treatment, not only is symptom relief more > difficult, but prognosis also impeded. A knowledge of western > medicine particularly can affect prognosis. > > So in light of all this, I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not > sufficient to treat most illnesses. And in some cases, maintenance or > palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. In which > case one not only cannot rely solely on TCM, but must actually > coordinate with MDs to achieve the optimum clinical success. I know > others will contend that TCM alone is sufficient in all or most cases, > but the evidence is not convincing to me. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 > > Alon Marcus [alonmarcus] > Monday, November 22, 2004 2:31 AM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > I do not get > the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. > >>>Usually, theoretically, one does both. But the question is how many > people really get cured, i.e. the root problem is corrected. I would say > the vast majority do not > ALON [Jason] That is a slightly different slant which BTW I also agree with... How many people do get cured? And for what diseases? This is important information that I feel is not discussed enough... It seems that the branch / tip (symptoms) can usually be adequately addressed as long as the person is taking the herbs, but to cure the problem (w/o further tx) is another story... I find this aspect of medicine frustrating. Granted such conditions are usually chronic cases and one probably should not expect a cure... But on the flip side, can Western Medicine offer anything more... Can they offer cures for such situations? -Jason > - > > > Sunday, November 21, 2004 9:58 AM > RE: pattern diagnosis > > > > > I would agree that one must, in many cases address branch symptoms, and > not > JUST focus on the core imbalance (root pattern)... But I do think that > TCM > is clear about this. When one consults a 'disease' or 'CC' in an > internal > medicine book it is my impression that both are usually addressed > simultaneously. For example, dan zhi xiao yao san might be a base Rx, > but > to that, symptomatic based herbs are added to address the tip. I do not > get > the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. But granted I have seen > material in English that does suggest this over-simplified approach... > Furthermore, I do agree with you that sometimes Western Medicine might > address these branch symptoms quicker and more effectively. I personally > always modify formulas to (hopefully) address both, and I find most > conditions (at least that I see) can be helped with TCM... Maybe you > could > mention some conditions that you have seen that TCM cannot handle > (besides > the obvious acute emergency conditions)... > > -Jason > > > > > > > Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:01 AM > > > > pattern diagnosis > > > > > > > > I was thinking about Bob's repeated admonition to do pattern diagnosis > > (assuming it was not a typo). I think many of us advocate that as the > > first and last resort. Certainly, all lasting developments in > > treating specific illnesses have begun with an understanding of > > pattern dx. But Bob wouldn't write books like modern western diseases > > and that ilk unless he also believed that the ideal situation was one > > in which the physician possessed a detailed knowledge of disease from > > both a western and eastern perspective. While one can certainly > > achieve some clinical success with the sole recourse of pattern > > diagnosis, I believe there are many conditions that will not yield to > > such generalized treatment. > > > > This approach is certainly ideal for patients with numerous vague > > symptoms. But for those with a distinct chief complaint or a well > > defined syndrome, merely addressing the patterns that one sees may not > > be sufficient. One might ask, " how can this be? " What is there > > besides patterns. Well, there are the symptoms that by themselves > > are branches, such as bleeding. Bleeding is not a pattern, but it > > must be stopped. It is rooted in a pattern (heat or qi vacuity > > usually). But addressing that root pattern is not often adequate. > > One must treat the disease directly. How can the qi that holds the > > blood ever be restored while one continues to bleed? > > > > Now the bleeding is an obvious example to which one would respond that > > it could be easily addressed with a good knowledge of materia medica. > > No specialized knowledge of disease treatment is necessary. But what > > about those more obscure disorders like ITCHY EYES/mu yang? While it > > might seem straightforward enough, are you sure you would be best > > served by using everyone's favorite fallback, yin qiao san, in a wind > > heat pattern. What would be your first choice in a wind cold? Would > > you use long dan xie gan tang for a liver fire pattern? You might be > > surpised at the options in this chapter in Sionneau. > > > > How do you know these standard formulas would actually give any relief > > to the chief complaint in a timely fashion? We can perhaps assume > > that they will achieve some goal in the long term. But do we have any > > duty to offer symptom relief immediately. I think the presence of > > nagging symptoms interfere with the recovery of health and must be > > relieved in order to achieve lasting progress. And what about > > prognosis. Without a knowledge of internal medicine and its emphasis > > on branch as well as root treatment, not only is symptom relief more > > difficult, but prognosis also impeded. A knowledge of western > > medicine particularly can affect prognosis. > > > > So in light of all this, I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not > > sufficient to treat most illnesses. And in some cases, maintenance or > > palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. In which > > case one not only cannot rely solely on TCM, but must actually > > coordinate with MDs to achieve the optimum clinical success. I know > > others will contend that TCM alone is sufficient in all or most cases, > > but the evidence is not convincing to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 I have been reading cover to cover The Management of Cancer by Li Peiwen and I would consider it the most complete discussion of modern TCM methods in English. It is an astounding compilation of 40 years of experiences in a top oncology department. Solidly CM it doesn't hesitate to make predictive assumptions about the nature of pathogens be they the cancer or chemotherapy agents (described in detail). Relevant to this discussion I see that the practitioners there want to stop certain predictive affects on the body before they manifest as symptoms. For example, giving herbs before (and after) chemotherapy. The problem for me is that many of our diagnosis must show gross symptoms before treatment. (I guess the pulse masters would dispute that) And then we are playing catch- up with the problem. In a way The Management is like the Shan Hun Lun, if this happens then expect that this will happen. This approach can only work with the detailed advice of practitioners with honest assesments of their extensive clinical experiences. So while we look with dirersion at those that equate the use of one Western Pharmaceutical with one CM herb or Formula treatment sometime cliches have element of truth. When someone, like the authors of this book, tells you that something is predictable over and over then one had better listen. The problem with most of our Pattern treatments is that too often that means only Zang- fu or Shan Hun Lun or Wen Bing or a limited number of other parameters. I think we need to fully embrace other systems of Patterns that too often are seen in our focus on Zang-fu as symptoms. doug , " " <@c...> wrote: > > > I would agree that one must, in many cases address branch symptoms, and not > JUST focus on the core imbalance (root pattern)... But I do think that TCM > is clear about this. When one consults a 'disease' or 'CC' in an internal > medicine book it is my impression that both are usually addressed > simultaneously. For example, dan zhi xiao yao san might be a base Rx, but > to that, symptomatic based herbs are added to address the tip. I do not get > the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. But granted I have seen > material in English that does suggest this over-simplified approach... > Furthermore, I do agree with you that sometimes Western Medicine might > address these branch symptoms quicker and more effectively. I personally > always modify formulas to (hopefully) address both, and I find most > conditions (at least that I see) can be helped with TCM... Maybe you could > mention some conditions that you have seen that TCM cannot handle (besides > the obvious acute emergency conditions)... > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 I have been forced to revisit Jeffery Yuen as my students attend workshops by him and those influenced by him. I have a lot of respect for him so that is not under discussion nor my ambivilance about applying his methods in the clinic after a series of weekend classes. However there are a few ideas that follow this cure/root discussion. I am hoping that other experienced practitioners can address some of his concepts that fly againest TCM. The first is that the cure will never happen without a healing crisis. Meaning that TCM is largely suppressive. For example, vomiting after chemotherapy is a good thing because it releases the toxins. Huo Xiang will just keep the chemotherapy in longer to go deeper. The other more intriguing concept is the interplay of yin and yang of the body in that the tongue or other signs are a reflection of the reactions of the body to conditions. In other words, a red tongue is a response to cold deeper in the body. (the pulse shows the actual condition). hmmm..... Todd? Are these similar concepts as naturapathy? doug > > > > I do not get > > the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. > > >>>Usually, theoretically, one does both. But the question is how many > > people really get cured, i.e. the root problem is corrected. I would say > > the vast majority do not > > ALON > [Jason] > That is a slightly different slant which BTW I also agree with... How many > people do get cured? And for what diseases? This is important information > that I feel is not discussed enough... It seems that the branch / tip > (symptoms) can usually be adequately addressed as long as the person is > taking the herbs, but to cure the problem (w/o further tx) is another > story... I find this aspect of medicine frustrating. Granted such > conditions are usually chronic cases and one probably should not expect a > cure... But on the flip side, can Western Medicine offer anything more... > Can they offer cures for such situations? > > -Jason > > > > - > > > > > > Sunday, November 21, 2004 9:58 AM > > RE: pattern diagnosis > > > > > > > > > > I would agree that one must, in many cases address branch symptoms, and > > not > > JUST focus on the core imbalance (root pattern)... But I do think that > > TCM > > is clear about this. When one consults a 'disease' or 'CC' in an > > internal > > medicine book it is my impression that both are usually addressed > > simultaneously. For example, dan zhi xiao yao san might be a base Rx, > > but > > to that, symptomatic based herbs are added to address the tip. I do not > > get > > the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. But granted I have seen > > material in English that does suggest this over-simplified approach... > > Furthermore, I do agree with you that sometimes Western Medicine might > > address these branch symptoms quicker and more effectively. I personally > > always modify formulas to (hopefully) address both, and I find most > > conditions (at least that I see) can be helped with TCM... Maybe you > > could > > mention some conditions that you have seen that TCM cannot handle > > (besides > > the obvious acute emergency conditions)... > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > [@c...] > > > Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:01 AM > > > > > > pattern diagnosis > > > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking about Bob's repeated admonition to do pattern diagnosis > > > (assuming it was not a typo). I think many of us advocate that as the > > > first and last resort. Certainly, all lasting developments in > > > treating specific illnesses have begun with an understanding of > > > pattern dx. But Bob wouldn't write books like modern western diseases > > > and that ilk unless he also believed that the ideal situation was one > > > in which the physician possessed a detailed knowledge of disease from > > > both a western and eastern perspective. While one can certainly > > > achieve some clinical success with the sole recourse of pattern > > > diagnosis, I believe there are many conditions that will not yield to > > > such generalized treatment. > > > > > > This approach is certainly ideal for patients with numerous vague > > > symptoms. But for those with a distinct chief complaint or a well > > > defined syndrome, merely addressing the patterns that one sees may not > > > be sufficient. One might ask, " how can this be? " What is there > > > besides patterns. Well, there are the symptoms that by themselves > > > are branches, such as bleeding. Bleeding is not a pattern, but it > > > must be stopped. It is rooted in a pattern (heat or qi vacuity > > > usually). But addressing that root pattern is not often adequate. > > > One must treat the disease directly. How can the qi that holds the > > > blood ever be restored while one continues to bleed? > > > > > > Now the bleeding is an obvious example to which one would respond that > > > it could be easily addressed with a good knowledge of materia medica. > > > No specialized knowledge of disease treatment is necessary. But what > > > about those more obscure disorders like ITCHY EYES/mu yang? While it > > > might seem straightforward enough, are you sure you would be best > > > served by using everyone's favorite fallback, yin qiao san, in a wind > > > heat pattern. What would be your first choice in a wind cold? Would > > > you use long dan xie gan tang for a liver fire pattern? You might be > > > surpised at the options in this chapter in Sionneau. > > > > > > How do you know these standard formulas would actually give any relief > > > to the chief complaint in a timely fashion? We can perhaps assume > > > that they will achieve some goal in the long term. But do we have any > > > duty to offer symptom relief immediately. I think the presence of > > > nagging symptoms interfere with the recovery of health and must be > > > relieved in order to achieve lasting progress. And what about > > > prognosis. Without a knowledge of internal medicine and its emphasis > > > on branch as well as root treatment, not only is symptom relief more > > > difficult, but prognosis also impeded. A knowledge of western > > > medicine particularly can affect prognosis. > > > > > > So in light of all this, I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not > > > sufficient to treat most illnesses. And in some cases, maintenance or > > > palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. In which > > > case one not only cannot rely solely on TCM, but must actually > > > coordinate with MDs to achieve the optimum clinical success. I know > > > others will contend that TCM alone is sufficient in all or most cases, > > > but the evidence is not convincing to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 I think this is such a broad subject that I personally would be hesitant to make conclusions. A number of points and issues come to my mind: 1) Chinese medicine has always had bian bing/disease differentiation as well as bian zheng/pattern differentiation. But disease differentiation is usually broken down into its inclusive patterns. 2) Much of the necessity of what we can call 'symptomatic' treatment has to do with the culture we live in. If people are sick as a result of radical lifestyle choices, or have had multiple surgeries, or are taking multiple medications, it is more difficult to heal them with just herbal medicine and acupuncture/moxa. While certainly in the past many people died from diseases that are now treatable and diagnosable by Western medicine, it is also probably true that people generally lived less extreme lifestyles before the modern era and therefore were easier to treat with more 'natural' approaches. 3) A very broad, flexible and intelligent CM diagnosis can easily include biomedical and other treatment modalities. 4) There are areas where Chinese medicine clearly can take the lead. For example, the common cold and garden variety influenza, where the diagnostic acumen of Shang Han Lun or Wen Bing theories are more likely to produce treatment protocols to match the changing patterns and manifestations of these conditions. Western medicine relies too much on antibiotics and secondarily steroids, which may be useful in very acute cases, but can weaken and harm the average cold or flu patient. In our own field, surprisingly few practitioners can actually differentially diagnose the patterns discussed in the SHL, WB, or Pi Wei Lun , and therefore tend to give a limited variety of formulas for respiratory infections. Just the other night, a recent PCOM graduate told me that Gan mao ling failed to work for a majority of her patients with colds or flu. I told her that she had to diagnose each case individually, know the stage of the condition, and treat accordingly. On Nov 20, 2004, at 11:01 PM, wrote: > > So in light of all this, I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not > sufficient to treat most illnesses. And in some cases, maintenance or > palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. In which > case one not only cannot rely solely on TCM, but must actually > coordinate with MDs to achieve the optimum clinical success. I know > others will contend that TCM alone is sufficient in all or most cases, > but the evidence is not convincing to me. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 > > [] > Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:07 PM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > > I have been forced to revisit Jeffery Yuen as my students attend workshops > by him and > those influenced by him. I have a lot of respect for him so that is not > under discussion nor > my ambivilance about applying his methods in the clinic after a series of > weekend classes. > However there are a few ideas that follow this cure/root discussion. I am > hoping that other > experienced practitioners can address some of his concepts that fly > againest TCM. > The first is that the cure will never happen without a healing crisis. [Jason] Interesting.. are you saying that J.Yuen says this? This is hard to believe as such a general statement, because surely we have all seen cures that do not have this component. > Meaning that TCM is > largely suppressive. For example, vomiting after chemotherapy is a good > thing because it > releases the toxins. Huo Xiang will just keep the chemotherapy in longer > to go deeper. > The other more intriguing concept is the interplay of yin and yang of the > body in that the > tongue or other signs are a reflection of the reactions of the body to > conditions. In other > words, a red tongue is a response to cold deeper in the body. (the pulse > shows the actual > condition). [Jason] Are you also saying that J.Yuen says this... again an interesting idea that may be correct in some cases, but (as you say) I do not think that CM theory supports this... Does he qualify these statements? Does he just say anytime there is a red tongue there is true (deeper) cold... This makes little sense when one thinks about treatment protocols... - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 These are all Jeffery Yuen ideas as I've gotten through my students. So I could be way off in my descriptions but I don't think so. First off he has a much more dynamic sense of Cold than we usually ascribe in TCM. His most intriguing idea is of Cold wrapping pathogens. Once Yang Qi can no longer feed the Cold then the pathogens can escape. It follows the idea that we all have cancers but some get out of control because of deficiency. Again before this happens, an amount of Cold is generated thus reflecting on the tongue when in fact the problem are (heat) pathogens. Or when there is a Cold accumulation then heat is generated to disperse it again reflecting on the tongue. This is what I mean by his sense of dynamic Yin and Yang. Anyway, I thought I would bring this up among like minded friends because his ideas are pervasive (if not persuasive) and influencing so many students and practitioners. And it made me think of it when I believe Alon was expressed sceptisism of TCM cures. I should find a Yuen group and report back. To some degree I'm thinking out loud about where his ideas resonate with my students and patients. doug deficiency , " " <@c...> wrote: > > [Jason] > Are you also saying that J.Yuen says this... again an interesting idea that > may be correct in some cases, but (as you say) I do not think that CM theory > supports this... Does he qualify these statements? Does he just say > anytime there is a red tongue there is true (deeper) cold... This makes > little sense when one thinks about treatment protocols... > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 > > Alon Marcus [alonmarcus] > Monday, November 22, 2004 3:13 AM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > No i do not think WM can most of the time and is often much more > dangerous to the patient. TCM is definitely safer most of the time, unless > one ignores for example high blood sugar and insists of not using modern > medicine. What we do need however is to admit that what we do most of the > time is palliative care just as WM does. [Jason] Yes... Although, something interesting to me is how the Chinese use the term 'cure' all so often in there research articles. For example, Schizophrenia (in Flaws's book) will have been said be 'cured.' A M.D., that I treat, saw this and said that Western Medicine hardly ever uses the term 'cured', and was perplexed what the Chinese meant by this term especially which such a disease. Me too... Comments? Bob? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 D, I am not asking you to defend J.Yuen, but welcome your (as also others) further ideas along such lines. But the question I have relates to treatment... This dynamic yin yang (expansion) all sounds nice in theory, as so much does, but how does he make use of these ideas in treatment. If we are just talking about acupuncture then I almost discount all of this... but if he (or others) show some case studies with i.e. herbal application it will help make things more tangible (since we know at least from a CM perspective what herbs do). This would help bring things to a tangible realm and we will have more information to discuss his theories... Any case studies or further info? - > > [] > Sunday, November 21, 2004 4:54 PM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > > These are all Jeffery Yuen ideas as I've gotten through my students. So I > could be way off > in my descriptions but I don't think so. First off he has a much more > dynamic sense of > Cold than we usually ascribe in TCM. His most intriguing idea is of Cold > wrapping > pathogens. Once Yang Qi can no longer feed the Cold then the pathogens can > escape. It > follows the idea that we all have cancers but some get out of control > because of > deficiency. Again before this happens, an amount of Cold is generated thus > reflecting on > the tongue when in fact the problem are (heat) pathogens. Or when there is > a Cold > accumulation then heat is generated to disperse it again reflecting on the > tongue. This is > what I mean by his sense of dynamic Yin and Yang. > Anyway, I thought I would bring this up among like minded friends because > his ideas are > pervasive (if not persuasive) and influencing so many students and > practitioners. And it > made me think of it when I believe Alon was expressed sceptisism of TCM > cures. I should > find a Yuen group and report back. To some degree I'm thinking out loud > about where his > ideas resonate with my students and patients. > doug > > > > deficiency , " " > <@c...> > wrote: > > > > [Jason] > > Are you also saying that J.Yuen says this... again an interesting idea > that > > may be correct in some cases, but (as you say) I do not think that CM > theory > > supports this... Does he qualify these statements? Does he just say > > anytime there is a red tongue there is true (deeper) cold... This makes > > little sense when one thinks about treatment protocols... > > > > - Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 , " " wrote: > > So in light of all this, I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not > sufficient to treat most illnesses. not that western dx is necessary, but TCM disease dx and knowledge of internal and case studies is desirable; materia medica and formulas are not enough And in some cases, maintenance or > palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. I suspect this is the case. I can't really say which. Most very hi BP seems to require meds regardless of OM tx. Have others found different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Basically as I understand it using the divergents bring pathogens out from the deeper levels to the wei level and out of the body. He uses the same paradigm for acupuncture and herbs. What I question if this is a return to the classics or just a convenient parrallel to Western ideas of peeling the onion. I'll put together some sort of guide about the herbs he sees doing this. doug , " " <@c...> wrote: > D, > > I am not asking you to defend J.Yuen, but welcome your (as also others) > further ideas along such lines. But the question I have relates to > treatment... This dynamic yin yang (expansion) all sounds nice in theory, > as so much does, but how does he make use of these ideas in treatment. If > we are just talking about acupuncture then I almost discount all of this... > but if he (or others) show some case studies with i.e. herbal application it > will help make things more tangible (since we know at least from a CM > perspective what herbs do). This would help bring things to a tangible > realm and we will have more information to discuss his theories... Any case > studies or further info? > > - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 I do not get the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. >>>Usually, theoretically, one does both. But the question is how many people really get cured, i.e. the root problem is corrected. I would say the vast majority do not ALON - Sunday, November 21, 2004 9:58 AM RE: pattern diagnosis I would agree that one must, in many cases address branch symptoms, and not JUST focus on the core imbalance (root pattern)... But I do think that TCM is clear about this. When one consults a 'disease' or 'CC' in an internal medicine book it is my impression that both are usually addressed simultaneously. For example, dan zhi xiao yao san might be a base Rx, but to that, symptomatic based herbs are added to address the tip. I do not get the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. But granted I have seen material in English that does suggest this over-simplified approach... Furthermore, I do agree with you that sometimes Western Medicine might address these branch symptoms quicker and more effectively. I personally always modify formulas to (hopefully) address both, and I find most conditions (at least that I see) can be helped with TCM... Maybe you could mention some conditions that you have seen that TCM cannot handle (besides the obvious acute emergency conditions)... -Jason > > > Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:01 AM > > pattern diagnosis > > > > I was thinking about Bob's repeated admonition to do pattern diagnosis > (assuming it was not a typo). I think many of us advocate that as the > first and last resort. Certainly, all lasting developments in > treating specific illnesses have begun with an understanding of > pattern dx. But Bob wouldn't write books like modern western diseases > and that ilk unless he also believed that the ideal situation was one > in which the physician possessed a detailed knowledge of disease from > both a western and eastern perspective. While one can certainly > achieve some clinical success with the sole recourse of pattern > diagnosis, I believe there are many conditions that will not yield to > such generalized treatment. > > This approach is certainly ideal for patients with numerous vague > symptoms. But for those with a distinct chief complaint or a well > defined syndrome, merely addressing the patterns that one sees may not > be sufficient. One might ask, " how can this be? " What is there > besides patterns. Well, there are the symptoms that by themselves > are branches, such as bleeding. Bleeding is not a pattern, but it > must be stopped. It is rooted in a pattern (heat or qi vacuity > usually). But addressing that root pattern is not often adequate. > One must treat the disease directly. How can the qi that holds the > blood ever be restored while one continues to bleed? > > Now the bleeding is an obvious example to which one would respond that > it could be easily addressed with a good knowledge of materia medica. > No specialized knowledge of disease treatment is necessary. But what > about those more obscure disorders like ITCHY EYES/mu yang? While it > might seem straightforward enough, are you sure you would be best > served by using everyone's favorite fallback, yin qiao san, in a wind > heat pattern. What would be your first choice in a wind cold? Would > you use long dan xie gan tang for a liver fire pattern? You might be > surpised at the options in this chapter in Sionneau. > > How do you know these standard formulas would actually give any relief > to the chief complaint in a timely fashion? We can perhaps assume > that they will achieve some goal in the long term. But do we have any > duty to offer symptom relief immediately. I think the presence of > nagging symptoms interfere with the recovery of health and must be > relieved in order to achieve lasting progress. And what about > prognosis. Without a knowledge of internal medicine and its emphasis > on branch as well as root treatment, not only is symptom relief more > difficult, but prognosis also impeded. A knowledge of western > medicine particularly can affect prognosis. > > So in light of all this, I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not > sufficient to treat most illnesses. And in some cases, maintenance or > palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. In which > case one not only cannot rely solely on TCM, but must actually > coordinate with MDs to achieve the optimum clinical success. I know > others will contend that TCM alone is sufficient in all or most cases, > but the evidence is not convincing to me. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 No i do not think WM can most of the time and is often much more dangerous to the patient. TCM is definitely safer most of the time, unless one ignores for example high blood sugar and insists of not using modern medicine. What we do need however is to admit that what we do most of the time is palliative care just as WM does. Alon - Sunday, November 21, 2004 10:44 AM RE: pattern diagnosis > > Alon Marcus [alonmarcus] > Monday, November 22, 2004 2:31 AM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > I do not get > the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. > >>>Usually, theoretically, one does both. But the question is how many > people really get cured, i.e. the root problem is corrected. I would say > the vast majority do not > ALON [Jason] That is a slightly different slant which BTW I also agree with... How many people do get cured? And for what diseases? This is important information that I feel is not discussed enough... It seems that the branch / tip (symptoms) can usually be adequately addressed as long as the person is taking the herbs, but to cure the problem (w/o further tx) is another story... I find this aspect of medicine frustrating. Granted such conditions are usually chronic cases and one probably should not expect a cure... But on the flip side, can Western Medicine offer anything more... Can they offer cures for such situations? -Jason > - > > > Sunday, November 21, 2004 9:58 AM > RE: pattern diagnosis > > > > > I would agree that one must, in many cases address branch symptoms, and > not > JUST focus on the core imbalance (root pattern)... But I do think that > TCM > is clear about this. When one consults a 'disease' or 'CC' in an > internal > medicine book it is my impression that both are usually addressed > simultaneously. For example, dan zhi xiao yao san might be a base Rx, > but > to that, symptomatic based herbs are added to address the tip. I do not > get > the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. But granted I have seen > material in English that does suggest this over-simplified approach... > Furthermore, I do agree with you that sometimes Western Medicine might > address these branch symptoms quicker and more effectively. I personally > always modify formulas to (hopefully) address both, and I find most > conditions (at least that I see) can be helped with TCM... Maybe you > could > mention some conditions that you have seen that TCM cannot handle > (besides > the obvious acute emergency conditions)... > > -Jason > > > > > > > Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:01 AM > > > > pattern diagnosis > > > > > > > > I was thinking about Bob's repeated admonition to do pattern diagnosis > > (assuming it was not a typo). I think many of us advocate that as the > > first and last resort. Certainly, all lasting developments in > > treating specific illnesses have begun with an understanding of > > pattern dx. But Bob wouldn't write books like modern western diseases > > and that ilk unless he also believed that the ideal situation was one > > in which the physician possessed a detailed knowledge of disease from > > both a western and eastern perspective. While one can certainly > > achieve some clinical success with the sole recourse of pattern > > diagnosis, I believe there are many conditions that will not yield to > > such generalized treatment. > > > > This approach is certainly ideal for patients with numerous vague > > symptoms. But for those with a distinct chief complaint or a well > > defined syndrome, merely addressing the patterns that one sees may not > > be sufficient. One might ask, " how can this be? " What is there > > besides patterns. Well, there are the symptoms that by themselves > > are branches, such as bleeding. Bleeding is not a pattern, but it > > must be stopped. It is rooted in a pattern (heat or qi vacuity > > usually). But addressing that root pattern is not often adequate. > > One must treat the disease directly. How can the qi that holds the > > blood ever be restored while one continues to bleed? > > > > Now the bleeding is an obvious example to which one would respond that > > it could be easily addressed with a good knowledge of materia medica. > > No specialized knowledge of disease treatment is necessary. But what > > about those more obscure disorders like ITCHY EYES/mu yang? While it > > might seem straightforward enough, are you sure you would be best > > served by using everyone's favorite fallback, yin qiao san, in a wind > > heat pattern. What would be your first choice in a wind cold? Would > > you use long dan xie gan tang for a liver fire pattern? You might be > > surpised at the options in this chapter in Sionneau. > > > > How do you know these standard formulas would actually give any relief > > to the chief complaint in a timely fashion? We can perhaps assume > > that they will achieve some goal in the long term. But do we have any > > duty to offer symptom relief immediately. I think the presence of > > nagging symptoms interfere with the recovery of health and must be > > relieved in order to achieve lasting progress. And what about > > prognosis. Without a knowledge of internal medicine and its emphasis > > on branch as well as root treatment, not only is symptom relief more > > difficult, but prognosis also impeded. A knowledge of western > > medicine particularly can affect prognosis. > > > > So in light of all this, I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not > > sufficient to treat most illnesses. And in some cases, maintenance or > > palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. In which > > case one not only cannot rely solely on TCM, but must actually > > coordinate with MDs to achieve the optimum clinical success. I know > > others will contend that TCM alone is sufficient in all or most cases, > > but the evidence is not convincing to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 I have been reading cover to cover The Management of Cancer by Li Peiwen and I would consider it the most complete discussion of modern TCM methods in English. It is an astounding compilation of 40 years of experiences in a top oncology department. >>>>And does so, quite clearly without WT. Alon - Sunday, November 21, 2004 10:54 AM Re: pattern diagnosis I have been reading cover to cover The Management of Cancer by Li Peiwen and I would consider it the most complete discussion of modern TCM methods in English. It is an astounding compilation of 40 years of experiences in a top oncology department. Solidly CM it doesn't hesitate to make predictive assumptions about the nature of pathogens be they the cancer or chemotherapy agents (described in detail). Relevant to this discussion I see that the practitioners there want to stop certain predictive affects on the body before they manifest as symptoms. For example, giving herbs before (and after) chemotherapy. The problem for me is that many of our diagnosis must show gross symptoms before treatment. (I guess the pulse masters would dispute that) And then we are playing catch- up with the problem. In a way The Management is like the Shan Hun Lun, if this happens then expect that this will happen. This approach can only work with the detailed advice of practitioners with honest assesments of their extensive clinical experiences. So while we look with dirersion at those that equate the use of one Western Pharmaceutical with one CM herb or Formula treatment sometime cliches have element of truth. When someone, like the authors of this book, tells you that something is predictable over and over then one had better listen. The problem with most of our Pattern treatments is that too often that means only Zang- fu or Shan Hun Lun or Wen Bing or a limited number of other parameters. I think we need to fully embrace other systems of Patterns that too often are seen in our focus on Zang-fu as symptoms. doug , " " <@c...> wrote: > > > I would agree that one must, in many cases address branch symptoms, and not > JUST focus on the core imbalance (root pattern)... But I do think that TCM > is clear about this. When one consults a 'disease' or 'CC' in an internal > medicine book it is my impression that both are usually addressed > simultaneously. For example, dan zhi xiao yao san might be a base Rx, but > to that, symptomatic based herbs are added to address the tip. I do not get > the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. But granted I have seen > material in English that does suggest this over-simplified approach... > Furthermore, I do agree with you that sometimes Western Medicine might > address these branch symptoms quicker and more effectively. I personally > always modify formulas to (hopefully) address both, and I find most > conditions (at least that I see) can be helped with TCM... Maybe you could > mention some conditions that you have seen that TCM cannot handle (besides > the obvious acute emergency conditions)... > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 it is also probably true that people generally lived less extreme lifestyles before the modern era and therefore were easier to treat with more 'natural' approaches. >>>Zev this was not true in China in 1985, so i question some of your assumption. As for treating the flue it would be interesting to see how TCM compares to the antiviral drugs, which for some reason are not used much. Does anyone have experience with them. Alon - Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:55 PM Re: pattern diagnosis I think this is such a broad subject that I personally would be hesitant to make conclusions. A number of points and issues come to my mind: 1) Chinese medicine has always had bian bing/disease differentiation as well as bian zheng/pattern differentiation. But disease differentiation is usually broken down into its inclusive patterns. 2) Much of the necessity of what we can call 'symptomatic' treatment has to do with the culture we live in. If people are sick as a result of radical lifestyle choices, or have had multiple surgeries, or are taking multiple medications, it is more difficult to heal them with just herbal medicine and acupuncture/moxa. While certainly in the past many people died from diseases that are now treatable and diagnosable by Western medicine, it is also probably true that people generally lived less extreme lifestyles before the modern era and therefore were easier to treat with more 'natural' approaches. 3) A very broad, flexible and intelligent CM diagnosis can easily include biomedical and other treatment modalities. 4) There are areas where Chinese medicine clearly can take the lead. For example, the common cold and garden variety influenza, where the diagnostic acumen of Shang Han Lun or Wen Bing theories are more likely to produce treatment protocols to match the changing patterns and manifestations of these conditions. Western medicine relies too much on antibiotics and secondarily steroids, which may be useful in very acute cases, but can weaken and harm the average cold or flu patient. In our own field, surprisingly few practitioners can actually differentially diagnose the patterns discussed in the SHL, WB, or Pi Wei Lun , and therefore tend to give a limited variety of formulas for respiratory infections. Just the other night, a recent PCOM graduate told me that Gan mao ling failed to work for a majority of her patients with colds or flu. I told her that she had to diagnose each case individually, know the stage of the condition, and treat accordingly. On Nov 20, 2004, at 11:01 PM, wrote: > > So in light of all this, I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not > sufficient to treat most illnesses. And in some cases, maintenance or > palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. In which > case one not only cannot rely solely on TCM, but must actually > coordinate with MDs to achieve the optimum clinical success. I know > others will contend that TCM alone is sufficient in all or most cases, > but the evidence is not convincing to me. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Actually, This one idea is not so novel or unique. In the Wen Bing literature, there is a discussion about cold qi wrapping around wind-heat evils (pathogens) and trapping them in the body. Also, the admonition not to use bitter cold medicinals excessively with wind-heat conditions, as the cold medicinals could 'freeze' the evil and not allow it to be expelled through the exterior. Fred Wong and I translated a section from Wu Jutong's " Systematic Differentiation of Warm Disease (Wen bing tiao bian) a few years back that discusses the use of gui zhi tang in warm disease with cold wrapped around it. I am not sure what you (or Jeffrey) means by 'yang qi feeding the cold'. Yang qi is warm, it is vacuity of yang qi that allows the cold to remain in place. On Nov 21, 2004, at 3:53 PM, wrote: > > These are all Jeffery Yuen ideas as I've gotten through my students. > So I could be way off > in my descriptions but I don't think so. First off he has a much more > dynamic sense of > Cold than we usually ascribe in TCM. His most intriguing idea is of > Cold wrapping > pathogens. Once Yang Qi can no longer feed the Cold then the > pathogens can escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 In my own experience teaching and practicing, I believe that many practitioners give up on pattern diagnosis too early because they have done an incomplete job, or have made erroneous conclusions. How can we make judgments on the effectiveness of pattern diagnosis as a method if it is done incompetently or incompletely? For example, I observe that it is very common among practitioners to grab at the single pattern that seems to jump out at them, without exploring all of the alternative explanations that would also account for the same set of symptoms. Many people these days exhibit multiple patterns simultaneously. If one gives only the obvious formula that matches a single pattern, in such cases one cannot expect satisfying results. I've gone to great lengths to attempt to provide teaching tools for training students to recognize multi-pattern situations: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2002-2.html Another common tendency is to equate pattern diagnosis with Organ disharmonies, for example, ignoring Shang Han Lun patterns in chronic cases. The 2nd most common reason I see for failure of standard TCM herbal methods (I have not practiced acupuncture for over 15 years now), is a failure to address dietary issues. Arthritis is probably the most dramatic example - in many cases, even the most agressive WindDamp formulas may fail, even if the pattern is clearly WindDamp in nature, if food sensitivities are not addressed. Example: I had a client who had significant food sensitivities and blood sugar regulation problems, both high and low at times. By careful attention to diet, and herbs for a predominantly Qi and Yin Deficiency profile, she did well. One year, she suddenly began to develop joint pains with swollen joints in her hands and feet as the weather became colder in the fall, and I began to add a bunch of WindDamp herbs to her usual Yin tonic formula, without result for several weeks. Until I discovered that she had eaten large amounts of vegetables in the Chenopodiaceae family (chard, beet greens, spinach), known for high oxalic acid content and known to commonly aggravate gout and arthritis conditions due to calcium oxalate deposition in tissues. Within a week of omitting these vegetables, the arthritic symptoms completely cleared up. I know a lot of practitioners who never address these issues, who would conclude that TCM pattern recognition does not work, because they do not go the extra step of addressing diet. In such cases of arthritis, these practitioners might assume that the clients need to see a physician for strong drugs, when a simple diet change would often solve the problem. This latter example may provide an argument for why nutrition (both TCM and scientific perspectives), biochemistry, and botany should be requirements for TCM herbalists instead of spending so many years learning acupuncture techniques of questionable value. In my own practice, TCM pattern assessment contributes perhaps 60-70% toward a solution, consideration of dietary and environmental factors, another 30%. And regarding dietary and environmental factors, I'd estimate that TCM and biochemical perspectives are equally important. For example, you will find nothing in the ancient texts to help you understand why microwaving food is bad, or why margarine is unhealthy - trans-fatty acids, etc. Microbiological considerations perhaps contribute 5% to clinical decisions I often make. While I recognize that it is outside my legal scope to do medical diagnosis and what I say to clients, this does not prevent me from thinking certain thoughts within the privacy of my own head. Recognizing the correlation between certain symptom-sign complexes and the likelihood of specific microbial or parasitic infections has helped me to tailor the choice of herbs, within the realm of choices for a given pattern, that often has made the overall formula more effective. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 And it would be much better if it used WT, or at least a comprehensive glossary. On Nov 22, 2004, at 2:15 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > I have been reading cover to cover The Management of Cancer by Li > Peiwen and I would > consider it the most complete discussion of modern TCM methods in > English. It is an > astounding compilation of 40 years of experiences in a top oncology > department. > >>>>And does so, quite clearly without WT. > Alon > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 I've never heard that huo xiang would suppress chemotherapy in the body. Huo xiang is aromatic and dispersing, so it wouldn't 'lodge' toxins inside. As with everything we do, one has to treat the actual pattern and differentiate cold, heat, yin, yang, etc. before choosing treatment. With vomiting, there is a point, like all discharges such as sweating, diarrhea, urination, where it becomes excessive and dangerous to qi, blood and fluids. I think this always has to be taken into account with treatment. Is it worth damaging spleen qi through excessive vomiting? On Nov 21, 2004, at 11:06 AM, wrote: > I am hoping that other > experienced practitioners can address some of his concepts that fly > againest TCM. > The first is that the cure will never happen without a healing > crisis. Meaning that TCM is > largely suppressive. For example, vomiting after chemotherapy is a > good thing because it > releases the toxins. Huo Xiang will just keep the chemotherapy in > longer to go deeper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 I have to agree Roger that in my observations what people take in which of course includes everything in the environment also but particularly food and drink has such a strong influence of Body/Mind and ultimately ones awareness of Spirit,I guess I assumed that most practitioners here are well versed in such matters,but maybe I am wrong. personally I became interested in first nutrition from a western perspective and then was drawn to macrobiotics ,first in the rather rigid practice of the late sixties to the more larger viewpoint of today but I found that a lot of the Chinese food energetic teachings help to enlarge the macrobiotic viewpoint further. -- In , rw2@r... wrote: > > In my own experience teaching and practicing, I believe that many practitioners give up on pattern diagnosis too early because they have done an incomplete job, or have made erroneous conclusions. How can we make judgments on the effectiveness of pattern diagnosis as a method if it is done incompetently or incompletely? > > For example, I observe that it is very common among practitioners to grab at the single pattern that seems to jump out at them, without exploring all of the alternative explanations that would also account for the same set of symptoms. Many people these days exhibit multiple patterns simultaneously. If one gives only the obvious formula that matches a single pattern, in such cases one cannot expect satisfying results. > I've gone to great lengths to attempt to provide teaching tools for training students to recognize multi-pattern situations: > http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2002-2.html > > Another common tendency is to equate pattern diagnosis with Organ disharmonies, for example, ignoring Shang Han Lun patterns in chronic cases. > > > The 2nd most common reason I see for failure of standard TCM herbal methods (I have not practiced acupuncture for over 15 years now), is a failure to address dietary issues. Arthritis is probably the most dramatic example - in many cases, even the most agressive WindDamp formulas may fail, even if the pattern is clearly WindDamp in nature, if food sensitivities are not addressed. > Example: I had a client who had significant food sensitivities and blood sugar regulation problems, both high and low at times. By careful attention to diet, and herbs for a predominantly Qi and Yin Deficiency profile, she did well. One year, she suddenly began to develop joint pains with swollen joints in her hands and feet as the weather became colder in the fall, and I began to add a bunch of WindDamp herbs to her usual Yin tonic formula, without result for several weeks. Until I discovered that she had eaten large amounts of vegetables in the Chenopodiaceae family (chard, beet greens, spinach), known for high oxalic acid content and known to commonly aggravate gout and arthritis conditions due to calcium oxalate deposition in tissues. Within a week of omitting these vegetables, the arthritic symptoms completely cleared up. I know a lot of practitioners who never address these issues, who would conclude that TCM pattern recognition does not work, because they do not go the extra step of addressing diet. In such cases of arthritis, these practitioners might assume that the clients need to see a physician for strong drugs, when a simple diet change would often solve the problem. > > This latter example may provide an argument for why nutrition (both TCM and scientific perspectives), biochemistry, and botany should be requirements for TCM herbalists instead of spending so many years learning acupuncture techniques of questionable value. > > > In my own practice, TCM pattern assessment contributes perhaps 60- 70% toward a solution, consideration of dietary and environmental factors, another 30%. And regarding dietary and environmental factors, I'd estimate that TCM and biochemical perspectives are equally important. For example, you will find nothing in the ancient texts to help you understand why microwaving food is bad, or why margarine is unhealthy - trans-fatty acids, etc. > > Microbiological considerations perhaps contribute 5% to clinical decisions I often make. While I recognize that it is outside my legal scope to do medical diagnosis and what I say to clients, this does not prevent me from thinking certain thoughts within the privacy of my own head. Recognizing the correlation between certain symptom-sign complexes and the likelihood of specific microbial or parasitic infections has helped me to tailor the choice of herbs, within the realm of choices for a given pattern, that often has made the overall formula more effective. > > > ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist > contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ > Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA > Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 On Nov 21, 2004, at 10:44 AM, wrote: > Granted such > conditions are usually chronic cases and one probably should not > expect a > cure... But on the flip side, can Western Medicine offer anything > more... > Can they offer cures for such situations? And what denotes a " cure " ? Western medicine may be looking at one marker while TCM can look at something else entirely. So, if the symptoms are gone and they never return, is that a cure? -al. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 On Nov 22, 2004, at 9:13 AM, wrote: > In the Wen Bing > literature, there is a discussion about cold qi wrapping around > wind-heat evils (pathogens) and trapping them in the body. So, is the tongue going to favor the heat (i.e. look red) or cold (look pale or normal) in a case such as this? -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 So, if the symptoms are gone and they never return, is that a cure? >>>That's good enough for me, but rare in non self limiting conditions Alon - Al Stone Monday, November 22, 2004 10:51 AM Re: pattern diagnosis On Nov 21, 2004, at 10:44 AM, wrote: > Granted such > conditions are usually chronic cases and one probably should not > expect a > cure... But on the flip side, can Western Medicine offer anything > more... > Can they offer cures for such situations? And what denotes a " cure " ? Western medicine may be looking at one marker while TCM can look at something else entirely. So, if the symptoms are gone and they never return, is that a cure? -al. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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