Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Maybe I'm wrong... but Yuen seems to extend this idea out of cold wrapping to more than wen bing diseases. Your last sentence is the most intriguing, what is the nature of " the vacuity of yang qi that allows the cold to remain in place. " In other words is the dynamic of heat being actively sucked away by Yang that creates the cold? Then when Yang fails/gives up the cold no longer wraps and the pathogens escape? I think this is what being said. doug , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Actually, > This one idea is not so novel or unique. In the Wen Bing > literature, there is a discussion about cold qi wrapping around > wind-heat evils (pathogens) and trapping them in the body. Also, the > admonition not to use bitter cold medicinals excessively with wind-heat > conditions, as the cold medicinals could 'freeze' the evil and not > allow it to be expelled through the exterior. > Fred Wong and I translated a section from Wu Jutong's " Systematic > Differentiation of Warm Disease (Wen bing tiao bian) a few years back > that discusses the use of gui zhi tang in warm disease with cold > wrapped around it. > > I am not sure what you (or Jeffrey) means by 'yang qi feeding the > cold'. Yang qi is warm, it is vacuity of yang qi that allows the cold > to remain in place. > > > On Nov 21, 2004, at 3:53 PM, wrote: > > > > > These are all Jeffery Yuen ideas as I've gotten through my students. > > So I could be way off > > in my descriptions but I don't think so. First off he has a much more > > dynamic sense of > > Cold than we usually ascribe in TCM. His most intriguing idea is of > > Cold wrapping > > pathogens. Once Yang Qi can no longer feed the Cold then the > > pathogens can escape. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Doug, A vacuity of yang qi is what allow cold to accumulate in the body, or allows it to 'remain in place'. I am not sure what you mean by 'heat being actively sucked away by yang', so I cannot respond to that. And, no, I am not saying that 'when yang fails, the cold no longer wraps around the pathogens'. Thinking about this more, this scenario illustrates to me what happens when a teacher fails to give sources, define terms, or give a clear framework for such ideas. They lead to confusion. Without knowing what texts or sources Jeffrey refers to, one ends up relying on his explanation, which may be quite interpretive. He could mean a number of things, and unless his students ask him for clarification, we are left with confusion. I am not blaming you for this. It happens a lot with this type of lecture, and one is left unsure exactly what the teacher is speaking about. On Nov 24, 2004, at 1:02 AM, wrote: > > Maybe I'm wrong... but Yuen seems to extend this idea out of cold > wrapping to more than > wen bing diseases. Your last sentence is the most intriguing, what is > the nature of " the > vacuity of yang qi that allows the cold to remain in place. " In other > words is the dynamic of > heat being actively sucked away by Yang that creates the cold? Then > when Yang fails/gives > up the cold no longer wraps and the pathogens escape? I think this is > what being said. > > doug > > > > > , " " > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > Actually, > > This one idea is not so novel or unique. In the Wen Bing > > literature, there is a discussion about cold qi wrapping around > > wind-heat evils (pathogens) and trapping them in the body. Also, > the > > admonition not to use bitter cold medicinals excessively with > wind-heat > > conditions, as the cold medicinals could 'freeze' the evil and not > > allow it to be expelled through the exterior. > > Fred Wong and I translated a section from Wu Jutong's > " Systematic > > Differentiation of Warm Disease (Wen bing tiao bian) a few years > back > > that discusses the use of gui zhi tang in warm disease with cold > > wrapped around it. > > > > I am not sure what you (or Jeffrey) means by 'yang qi feeding the > > cold'. Yang qi is warm, it is vacuity of yang qi that allows the > cold > > to remain in place. > > > > > > On Nov 21, 2004, at 3:53 PM, wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 On Nov 24, 2004, at 12:14 PM, wrote: > > Doug, > A vacuity of yang qi is what allow cold to accumulate in the body, > or allows it to 'remain in place'. I am not sure what you mean by > 'heat being actively sucked away by yang', so I cannot respond to that. > And, no, I am not saying that 'when yang fails, the cold no longer > wraps around the pathogens'. > > Thinking about this more, this scenario illustrates to me what > happens when a teacher fails to give sources, define terms, or give a > clear framework for such ideas. They lead to confusion. Without > knowing what texts or sources Jeffrey refers to, one ends up relying on > his explanation, which may be quite interpretive. He could mean a > number of things, and unless his students ask him for clarification, we > are left with confusion. > > I am not blaming you for this. It happens a lot with this type of > lecture, and one is left unsure exactly what the teacher is speaking > about. You've got no argument from me on this one, but I'd like to see if you've ever heard of what one of Mr. Yuen's students said yesterday. This particular student is among the more articulate and TCM savvy in the school. He is one of the more effective conveyers of Mr. Yuen's teachings as well. He said that when a heat pathogen enters the body and becomes latent, it is wrapped up by the yin in order to protect the rest of the body from the heat pathogen. In time, this Yin is consumed leading to a consumption of Jing. When there is no Jing to protect the rest of the body from the heat pathogen, the body induces a Yang deficiency in order to create a false cold, again to protect the body from the heat pathogen. The key difference between this interpretation and how I would describe it is that he (the student and presumably, Mr. Yuen) believe that this mechanism is physiology, while I believe it is pathology. The heat consumes the Yin, then the Jing, and in that state of deficiency, the Yang follows. Does any of Mr Yuen's physiological mechanisms sound familiar to you? -al. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 That's what I'm trying to understand... is the vacuity of Yang an absense of Yang or the active process of Yang transforming Yin into Yang? , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Doug, > A vacuity of yang qi is what allow cold to accumulate in the body, > or allows it to 'remain in place'. I am not sure what you mean by > 'heat being actively sucked away by yang', so I cannot respond to that. > And, no, I am not saying that 'when yang fails, the cold no longer > wraps around the pathogens'. > > Thinking about this more, this scenario illustrates to me what > happens when a teacher fails to give sources, define terms, or give a > clear framework for such ideas. They lead to confusion. Without > knowing what texts or sources Jeffrey refers to, one ends up relying on > his explanation, which may be quite interpretive. He could mean a > number of things, and unless his students ask him for clarification, we > are left with confusion. > > I am not blaming you for this. It happens a lot with this type of > lecture, and one is left unsure exactly what the teacher is speaking > about. > > > On Nov 24, 2004, at 1:02 AM, wrote: > > > > > Maybe I'm wrong... but Yuen seems to extend this idea out of cold > > wrapping to more than > > wen bing diseases. Your last sentence is the most intriguing, what is > > the nature of " the > > vacuity of yang qi that allows the cold to remain in place. " In other > > words is the dynamic of > > heat being actively sucked away by Yang that creates the cold? Then > > when Yang fails/gives > > up the cold no longer wraps and the pathogens escape? I think this is > > what being said. > > > > doug > > > > > > > > > > , " " > > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > > Actually, > > > This one idea is not so novel or unique. In the Wen Bing > > > literature, there is a discussion about cold qi wrapping around > > > wind-heat evils (pathogens) and trapping them in the body. Also, > > the > > > admonition not to use bitter cold medicinals excessively with > > wind-heat > > > conditions, as the cold medicinals could 'freeze' the evil and not > > > allow it to be expelled through the exterior. > > > Fred Wong and I translated a section from Wu Jutong's > > " Systematic > > > Differentiation of Warm Disease (Wen bing tiao bian) a few years > > back > > > that discusses the use of gui zhi tang in warm disease with cold > > > wrapped around it. > > > > > > I am not sure what you (or Jeffrey) means by 'yang qi feeding the > > > cold'. Yang qi is warm, it is vacuity of yang qi that allows the > > cold > > > to remain in place. > > > > > > > > > On Nov 21, 2004, at 3:53 PM, wrote: > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > consumption of Jing. When there is no Jing to protect the rest of the > body from the heat pathogen, the body induces a Yang deficiency in > order to create a false cold, again to protect the body from the heat > pathogen. Why would Yang deficiency create a false cold pattern? It is a real cold pattern. False cold would be something like that seen in the " si ni san " pattern which is a heat / constraint pattern that blocks the yang from reaching the extremities, giving the cold symptoms of the cold fingers and toes, but it is a heat pattern. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 On Nov 24, 2004, at 12:43 PM, Al Stone wrote: > > > > He said that when a heat pathogen enters the body and becomes latent, > it is wrapped up by the yin in order to protect the rest of the body > from the heat pathogen. In time, this Yin is consumed leading to a > consumption of Jing. When there is no Jing to protect the rest of the > body from the heat pathogen, the body induces a Yang deficiency in > order to create a false cold, again to protect the body from the heat > pathogen. As Brian pointed out in his post, yang vacuity creates true cold, not false cold. I cannot find in my mind or what I know of Chinese medical logic any reason why the body would 'induce a yang deficiency' in the first place as a defensive reaction against the erosion of jing by latent heat evils. Again, having some source literature, rather than just Jeffrey's creative thought processes, would be helpful. > > The key difference between this interpretation and how I would > describe > it is that he (the student and presumably, Mr. Yuen) believe that this > mechanism is physiology, while I believe it is pathology. The heat > consumes the Yin, then the Jing, and in that state of deficiency, the > Yang follows. Sometimes this could be the case. Your explanation sounds more accurate to me. However, without the context of Jeffrey's entire seminar, it is difficult to determine what is correct here. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 This looks like it might be a description of a Jue Yin Syndrome. Again what interests me is the dynamics of Cold as not simply an absense of Yang. I want to dig into what is meant by the Yang within Yin beyond the stock phrases we use so often. Because even this " wrapping " of heat makes no sense when I think about it. Why is the heat trapped and not just dissipated? that's all doug > > > > > > He said that when a heat pathogen enters the body and becomes latent, > > it is wrapped up by the yin in order to protect the rest of the body > > from the heat pathogen. In time, this Yin is consumed leading to a > > consumption of Jing. When there is no Jing to protect the rest of the > > body from the heat pathogen, the body induces a Yang deficiency in > > order to create a false cold, again to protect the body from the heat > > pathogen. > > As Brian pointed out in his post, yang vacuity creates true cold, not > false cold. I cannot find in my mind or what I know of Chinese medical > logic any reason why the body would 'induce a yang deficiency' in the > first place as a defensive reaction against the erosion of jing by > latent heat evils. Again, having some source literature, rather than > just Jeffrey's creative thought processes, would be helpful. > > > > The key difference between this interpretation and how I would > > describe > > it is that he (the student and presumably, Mr. Yuen) believe that this > > mechanism is physiology, while I believe it is pathology. The heat > > consumes the Yin, then the Jing, and in that state of deficiency, the > > Yang follows. > > Sometimes this could be the case. Your explanation sounds more > accurate to me. However, without the context of Jeffrey's entire > seminar, it is difficult to determine what is correct here. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 Jeffrey has some very creative ideas which while sound very interesting are clinically questionable. At the same time they are thought provoking and worth while alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2004 Report Share Posted November 26, 2004 On Nov 24, 2004, at 11:15 PM, wrote: > As Brian pointed out in his post, yang vacuity creates true cold, not > false cold. I'm confounded by this statement. You have symptoms of cold, but it is not due to excess (true) cold, it is due to a deficiency of Yang. How is this not false cold? I don't have CAM with me in the office, so I'll quote from " Advanced Textbook on Traditional and Pharmacology " by the State Administration of Traditional , New World Press: " Relative yang deficiency (yang pian shuai) refers to the pathological condition in which the symptoms of damage of Yang qi, physiological hypofunction and insufficient body heat are evident. In pathogenic terms, this is a deficiency-cold syndrome (xu han zheng); it is marked by insufficient yang qi, a failure of yang to check yin and the relative hyperactivity of yin. Yang deficiency usually stems from an innate insufficiency, or postnatal malnutrition, or the impairment of yang due to a prolonged illness. " bcataiji wrote: > False cold would be something like that seen in the " si ni san " > pattern which is a heat / constraint pattern that blocks the yang from > reaching the extremities, giving the cold symptoms of the cold fingers > and toes, but it is a heat pattern. Is this issue about " false cold " versus " vacuity cold " ? If that is so, then yes, I can see where there is some difference, but in common usage I've always considered " false cold " to be synonymous with deficiency cold, vacuity cold, empty cold, etc. -al. -- Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional. -anonymous email. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2004 Report Share Posted November 26, 2004 At the recent Pacific Symposium, I sat in for a short while on Jeffrey's Aromatherapy seminar. While I am very interested in the use of essential oils in medicine, and found Jeffrey's presentation fascinating, I am trying to figure out how he can market a full- blown system of using Western essential oils in clinical practice. Who has tested these out, how do we know, for example the qualities of clary sage or chamomile oil when applied to specific acupuncture points? I am skeptical, because it will take a long time to truly figure out the clinical effectiveness of this system, not to say determine the quality of these oils from a Chinese medical perspective. , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Jeffrey has some very creative ideas which while sound very interesting are clinically questionable. At the same time they are thought provoking and worth while > alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2004 Report Share Posted November 26, 2004 , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > I'm confounded by this statement. > > You have symptoms of cold, but it is not due to excess (true) cold, it > is due to a deficiency of Yang. How is this not false cold? You are confounded because you have vacuity cold confused with false cold. Both repletion and vacuity cold patterns are true cold. The same goes for heat patterns. Both repletion heat and vacuity heat are true heat; they are different than false heat. Clearing heat in a false heat pattern would make the patient worse, whereas clearing heat in a repletion heat or vacuity heat pattern is indicated. Likewise, warming and/or dispersing cold is indicated in both in repletion and vacuity cold patterns. Doing that in a false cold pattern would make the patient worse. This sort of confusion surround basic TCM ideas is yet another reason to push for standardized terminonly in this field. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2004 Report Share Posted November 26, 2004 Hi Brian, I too was under the impression that " false cold/heat " was synonymous with " vacuity cold/heat " . I'd like to hear about examples of false cold/heat....the only example coming to mind is, for instance, in cases that you might use Si Ni San. Can you further enlighten me? I often see cases of what seems to be " false cold " in that every indication is of heat and yet they are cold. Si Ni San frankly doesn't work as often as I'd like it to, and I've been trying to understand another way of looking at this. Sometimes adding middle jiao invigorators like Sheng Jiang and/or Chen Pi and/or Sha Ren does the trick. Laura , " bcataiji " <bcaom@c...> wrote: > > , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > > I'm confounded by this statement. > > > > You have symptoms of cold, but it is not due to excess (true) cold, it > > is due to a deficiency of Yang. How is this not false cold? > > You are confounded because you have vacuity cold confused with false > cold. Both repletion and vacuity cold patterns are true cold. > > The same goes for heat patterns. Both repletion heat and vacuity heat > are true heat; they are different than false heat. Clearing heat in a > false heat pattern would make the patient worse, whereas clearing heat > in a repletion heat or vacuity heat pattern is indicated. > > Likewise, warming and/or dispersing cold is indicated in both in > repletion and vacuity cold patterns. Doing that in a false cold > pattern would make the patient worse. > > This sort of confusion surround basic TCM ideas is yet another reason > to push for standardized terminonly in this field. > > Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2004 Report Share Posted November 26, 2004 On 27/11/2004, at 7:31 AM, Al Stone wrote: > > On Nov 24, 2004, at 11:15 PM, wrote: > >> As Brian pointed out in his post, yang vacuity creates true cold, not >> false cold. > > I'm confounded by this statement. > > You have symptoms of cold, but it is not due to excess (true) cold, it > is due to a deficiency of Yang. How is this not false cold? > > I don't have CAM with me in the office, so I'll quote from " Advanced > Textbook on Traditional and Pharmacology " by the State > Administration of Traditional , New World Press: > > " Relative yang deficiency (yang pian shuai) refers to the pathological > condition in which the symptoms of damage of Yang qi, physiological > hypofunction and insufficient body heat are evident. In pathogenic > terms, this is a deficiency-cold syndrome (xu han zheng); it is marked > by insufficient yang qi, a failure of yang to check yin and the > relative hyperactivity of yin. Yang deficiency usually stems from an > innate insufficiency, or postnatal malnutrition, or the impairment of > yang due to a prolonged illness. " > For an short explanation of " false " cold or heat see pgs. 395-6 of this text. " False " conditions in general are extreme excess conditions which manifest clinically with signs opposite in nature to the actual condition. This results in giving the superficial impression of heat when there is none .ie false S & S. eg. when signs of cold appear but are due to a " false cold " pattern; it is due to excess heat. Deficiency/vacuity/empty cold are deficiency conditions but exhibit a " true " nature. eg. true cold due to deficiency of yang Simple excess of cold is also a " true " cold pattern. It is only in the less common situation of the excess reaches its limit does it manifest " false " signs/symptoms opposite to the " true " nature of the condition. The term false is rather generic in most texts I have read and is clearly delineated from deficiency/vacuity. Best Wishes, Steve bcataiji wrote: > >> False cold would be something like that seen in the " si ni san " >> pattern which is a heat / constraint pattern that blocks the yang from >> reaching the extremities, giving the cold symptoms of the cold fingers >> and toes, but it is a heat pattern. > > Is this issue about " false cold " versus " vacuity cold " ? > > If that is so, then yes, I can see where there is some difference, but > in common usage I've always considered " false cold " to be synonymous > with deficiency cold, vacuity cold, empty cold, etc. > > -al. > > -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2004 Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 Hi all: I have a patient right now that seems to be the perfect case for this discussion. He has severe symptoms of dampheat (and candida)---a red tongue with yellow coating--- along with yin deficiency symptoms with the most peeled, deeply cracked tongue in the back that I have ever seen. Apparently the cracks started when he had mono and strep throat years ago and was very sick. Yet he is very, very cold...and not just the extremeties---actually his chest is particularly cold. He also has a lot of wind from the yin deficiency as evidenced by twitching. To look at the back of his tongue, its hard not to want to tonify the yin, but of course clearing dampheat is the necessary course (with some Sheng di to protect the yin). After two weeks on herbs his tongue lost the yellow coating and he is feeling much better---most of the evidence of dampheat in his stools (itching, burning, urgency etc.) is gone. But he continued to be very cold on the herbs--even more cold than he was before he started the herbs---in fact he wants to take a break from herbs because he is so tired of being so cold. You would think that if this was false cold from severe heat that he would be less cold with herbs to clear the heat, right? Any ideas about this? Laura , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > I too was under the impression that " false cold/heat " was synonymous > with " vacuity cold/heat " . > >>>They are not, for example false heat is commonly due to severe yang deficiency (uprooting of yang qi) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2004 Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 It is also possible to have both True Cold and True Heat simultaneously - common in elderly people with both Deficiency of Yin and Yang, or in severe end-stage illnesses, or in significant heavy metal toxicity. When the tongue shows clear signs of Yin Deficiency, it can be useful to look at all the pulse positions to see if there are also signs of Yang Deficiency, but whole-body feeling of cold is fairly convincing. I would do a quick palpation of skin temp. over all body regions to check that skin temp. matches the client's temp. perceptions. Also, the combination of simultaneous: Deficiency of Yin and Yang (of Kd, etc.) Damp Heat + Stagnation (Qi, Blood) I have seen a lot in clients who turn out to have heavy metal toxicity. The case you describe below would be typical. (Although you do not mention Stagnation of Blood, this is common in such cases and you should check for it.) Working with such cases requires careful attention to detail and to all the major pattern aspects. It can be like unraveling knots, and usually the formulas need to be carefully tailored to client and adjusted frequently. Before I even start to do anything, I usually take a 2-3-hour health/environmental/occupational/dietary history to see what factors might be involved. It can be dangerous to start trying formulas at random on such people without understanding all of the aggravating factors, because when things start going wrong, you will need to immediately be able to make corrections in your strategy and know why and how much. Roger > " heylaurag " <heylaurag >Re: pattern diagnosis > > >Hi all: I have a patient right now that seems to be the perfect case >for this discussion. He has severe symptoms of dampheat (and >candida)---a red tongue with yellow coating--- along with yin >deficiency symptoms with the most peeled, deeply cracked tongue in the >back that I have ever seen. Apparently the cracks started when he had >mono and strep throat years ago and was very sick. Yet he is very, >very cold...and not just the extremeties---actually his chest is >particularly cold. He also has a lot of wind from the yin deficiency >as evidenced by twitching. > >To look at the back of his tongue, its hard not to want to tonify the >yin, but of course clearing dampheat is the necessary course (with >some Sheng di to protect the yin). After two weeks on herbs his >tongue lost the yellow coating and he is feeling much better---most of >the evidence of dampheat in his stools (itching, burning, urgency >etc.) is gone. > >But he continued to be very cold on the herbs--even more cold than he >was before he started the herbs---in fact he wants to take a break >from herbs because he is so tired of being so cold. You would think >that if this was false cold from severe heat that he would be less >cold with herbs to clear the heat, right? Any ideas about this? > >Laura ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2004 Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 On Nov 27, 2004, at 12:43 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > I too was under the impression that " false cold/heat " was synonymous > with " vacuity cold/heat " . >>>> They are not, for example false heat is commonly due to severe yang >>>> deficiency (uprooting of yang qi) Is this false heat due to the same mechanisms as " false shen " where shortly before a patient expires, they have a few minutes of apparent health and vigor? -- Time is the best teacher, unfortunately it kills all its students. -anonymous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2004 Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 When false shen appears it is the " last radiance of the setting sun " or the " last flicker of the candle " and precedes imminent death but does not have obvious heat signs; it is defined as false signs of vitality suddenly appearing in seriously ill patients and presents as sudden garrulousness, improvement in appetite and facial complexion (notice no mention of heat signs here). Severe yang deficiency/desertion/collapse seems to result in false shen rather than false heat as yin and yang separate just before death. False heat patterns while also appearing in serious conditions do not equate to false shen which is generally considered terminal and lacks signs of heat per se. False heat (true cold) is caused when " exuberant yin cold repels yang " . Here, the excess internal cold repels the yang to the surface. So the yang is in RELATIVE deficiency to the EXUBERANT yin cold, the cause is not a yang deficiency at its root ie. it is not a TRUE deficiency of yang. It is predominately an cold condition, not a deficiency cold condition. From Wiseman's " Fundamentals " on false heat and cold...... " tidal reddening of the face is a heat symptom and, appearing in a pronounced cold pattern, is at variance with the others signs. This situation is described as true cold and false heat. " " True Cold and False Heat : ......when reversal cold of the limbs, diarrhea containing untransformed food, and faint pulse verging on expiry are observed simultaneously with agitation, no aversion to cold, thirst with desire for warm fluids, in some cases upbearing fire flush or sore pharynx. Here, the cold signs are caused by exuberant internal yin cold, while the false heat sings...are attributable to floating of vacuous yang. " Wiseman's PD definitions for floating of vacuous yang:- 1. Exuberant yin repelling yang. 2. A pattern of tidal heat [effusion], tender-red complexion, dry mouth without thirst, and a vacuous rapid pusle arising when yang, deprived of support through essence-blood depletion, strays upward to the upper body. From Deng's Practical Diagnosis in TCM...... " True cold and false heat (extreme cold appearing as heat)........This is internal yin exuberance repelling yang to the exterior, caused by cold and heat repelling each other " . According to all the texts I consulted there is no mention of yang deficiency as such causing false heat. I can find no evidence that false heat is due to severe yang deficiency. Best Wishes, Steve On 28/11/2004, at 5:05 AM, Al Stone wrote: > > On Nov 27, 2004, at 12:43 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > >> I too was under the impression that " false cold/heat " was synonymous >> with " vacuity cold/heat " . >>>>> They are not, for example false heat is commonly due to severe yang >>>>> deficiency (uprooting of yang qi) > > Is this false heat due to the same mechanisms as " false shen " where > shortly before a patient expires, they have a few minutes of apparent > health and vigor? > > -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2004 Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 Thanks Alon, I can understand your example clearly. My contention was and is that " false heat " never mentions yang xu in text patterns. Qi desertion yang collapse certainly can show heat signs but this pattern is not mentioned in terms of " false heat " . " False heat " seems to have a very specific definition over many texts and is not used in relation to yang collapse; they are different concepts. Steve On 28/11/2004, at 9:52 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > Severe yang deficiency/desertion/collapse seems to result in false shen > rather than false heat as yin and yang separate just before death. >>>> Let me give you an example. When in china I spent lots of time at >>>> the surgery department. We often had to treat shock. In patients >>>> with hypovoluimic shock we often diagnosed them as qi desertion >>>> yang collapse. They often had " false " heat signs. We treated them >>>> with IV or GI tube sheng mai san plus ru gui and moxa at GV 4. The >>>> diagnosis was often false heat yang collapse. I was taught that >>>> false heat and false cold are seen when there is a contradictory >>>> presentation between root and branch. So while false heat can >>>> result from excess yin pathogens it was also used for heat symptoms >>>> signs in patients with collapse of yang. I do not know what the >>>> " official " term in modern TCM is but I can tell you that in our >>>> hospital the above diagnosis was used quite often. And the term >>>> false heat was written in the chart. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2004 Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 > On 28/11/2004, at 9:52 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > >> >> Severe yang deficiency/desertion/collapse seems to result in false >> shen >> rather than false heat as yin and yang separate just before death. >>>>> Let me give you an example. When in china I spent lots of time at >>>>> the surgery department. We often had to treat shock. In patients >>>>> with hypovoluimic shock we often diagnosed them as qi desertion >>>>> yang collapse. They often had " false " heat signs. We treated them >>>>> with IV or GI tube sheng mai san plus ru gui and moxa at GV 4. The >>>>> diagnosis was often false heat yang collapse. I was taught that >>>>> false heat and false cold are seen when there is a contradictory >>>>> presentation between root and branch. So while false heat can >>>>> result from excess yin pathogens it was also used for heat symptoms >>>>> signs in patients with collapse of yang. I do not know what the >>>>> " official " term in modern TCM is but I can tell you that in our >>>>> hospital the above diagnosis was used quite often. And the term >>>>> false heat was written in the chart. >> >> Perhaps a diagnosis of " false heat yang collapse " or " qi desertion yang collapse " is not the same as " false heat " or " true cold false heat " . It is always dangerous to assume one or two words in common = same concept as another containing less or different words. Perhaps the diagnosis you describe is a combination of " false heat " and " yang collapse " and should be viewed as such; not simplified or interpreted as being equivalent to " true cold false heat " or " false heat " as has been the line of discussion. Just because 2 patterns may appear together does not mean they are the same thing. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2004 Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 I too was under the impression that " false cold/heat " was synonymous with " vacuity cold/heat " . >>>They are not, for example false heat is commonly due to severe yang deficiency (uprooting of yang qi) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2004 Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 , " " wrote: > The first is that the cure will never happen without a healing crisis. Meaning that TCM is > largely suppressive. For example, vomiting after chemotherapy is a good thing because it > releases the toxins. Are these similar concepts as naturapathy? > this is nature cure philosophy pure and simple. all disease is toxin. the healing crisis is essential. all use of herbs addressed at symptom relief is suppressive. if Yuen's position is based in something other than naturopathic philosophy, he should cite his chinese sources. Otherwise, he leads a school of thought within OM with no textual evidence or modern research to back it up. If people want to just take his word or be seduced by his personal charisma, so be it. But as I have said many times, what appeals to me about CM is its history, its texts, the gnereal consensus that has developed on many things. If all there really is to CM is a set of ideas that anyone is free to manipulate as they please without regard to either science or history, we have nothing. However it has never been this way in the past and we should not allow it to be this way now. I recently saw Yuen's handouts on the TCM properties of essential oils. The student who showed it to me was excited that he had gone to such detail in attributing channels and flavors and such. I was less enthusiastic. No where in his notes was there any mention of how he determined all these things. Because they are probably all based upon idle speculation, not the work of a scholar who cites his sources. We don't really need any more of this in the field. in fact, we need as little as possible. It is incredibly disturbing that such teachers are ones who pack leacture halls and yet so few can read chinese or understand a lab test. Let's not get the cart before the horse here. If students are exposed to too much tripe before they learn to properly discriminate between things, they will be lost forever. It is like never reading the western literary canon and then spending the rest of your life ranting about what's wrong with it. Oh yeah, that is what goes on in liberal arts colleges these days. What a surprise this virus has infected us as well. The current influx of youngsters freshly polluted from these environs into our schools probably does not bode well for the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2004 Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 , " " wrote: It is incredibly disturbing > that such teachers are ones who pack leacture halls and yet so few can read chinese or > understand a lab test. I didn't mean to imply Mr. Yuen could not read chinese. I have no idea. I meant there are much more important pre and post grad subjects for students to study, language and western med being two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2004 Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 On 29/11/2004, at 1:46 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > Qi > desertion yang collapse certainly can show heat signs but this pattern > is not mentioned in terms of " false heat " . " False heat " seems to have a > very specific definition over many texts and is not used in relation to > yang collapse; they are different concepts. > >>>>> I wander if this is true for modern TCM? standardization of terms? >>>>> or CM in general. I know the term false heat was used with the >>>>> example I gave regardless of the " standard " definitions you have >>>>> quoted.Have these terms been used by all authors in china with the >>>>> same definitions you have quoted? I do not think so because the >>>>> example I gave comes from a Chinese hospital and used by several >>>>> TCM practitioners. Perhaps this is another example of the pitfalls >>>>> of standard " technical " language > > Rather than another example of the pitfalls of standard technical language, perhaps this is due to the very problem proponents of standard terminology are fighting against. That is, simplifications the Chinese often feed westerners due to believing we can't know the subtle differences or they can't communicate them due to insufficient English vocabulary or skill. If this pattern was as common as you suggest then I find it impossible to believe that it does not appear in at least some of the texts I consulted. >>> We often had to treat shock. In patients with hypovoluimic shock we >>> often diagnosed them as qi desertion yang collapse. They often had >>> " false " heat signs. We treated them with IV or GI tube sheng mai >>> san plus ru gui and moxa at GV 4. The diagnosis was often false heat >>> yang collapse. Actually without any standards in terminology we get assumptions that any misleading sign of heat is the same thing as " false heat " and statements such as suggesting " qi desertion yang collapse " is the same as some mysterious and elusive pattern (at least to me and many respected works I consulted) of " false heat yang collapse " and therefore a pattern of " false heat " . I too have worked in a Chinese hospital and I learnt very early on to take what any particular doctor wrote down on a piece of paper in clinic or what they said in English either directly or through a translator with a VERY large grain of salt. Grouping together and simplification of concepts/explanations was the norm rather than the exception via this pathway. Personally, I prefer to do some leg work and try to find what is the generally accepted understanding/s and not put too much faith is what I heard in Chinese hospitals without any additional evidence or agreement from other sources. As for the rhetorical question of whether the terms I defined are " used by all authors in china with the same definitions " that I quoted; again, I put more stock in actually investigating an issue than spouting an experience in my memory of how someone once explained a patients condition without any supporting data of any kind. But that is just me. Before this degenerates into another terminology debate or a debate where one person makes an effort to support an opinion and another does not.......I take my leave from this thread. Best Wishes, Steve > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2004 Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 Yeah, I don't know about Jeffery Yuen, meaning I am ambivilant. After years of his teaching he seems to be as enigmatic as ever. The reason I brought a couple of his concepts here is to see if they held water at all. The result is we can't really seem to get into a discussion because we are still arguing about the TCM implications. I would like to think he is a source, if he really does read all the books he lectures about. And if he was actually taught all these things. The last lecture I saw him, he was talking about Li Dong Yuan and it was downright understandable and dare I say... mundane. Good introduction but (notably for him) nothing earthshaking. What I worry about is that he is pandering to the Americans. You want essential oils? I got essential oils! You want pyscho-emotional? I got psycho-emotional! (I think Al Stone first brought this idea out front.) In a way I don't worry about him being authentic cause I think he is real deal in terms of be he a huckster or an authentic transmitter. Both are within the tradition. What I (we) worry about are students getting on the wagon. And you know we all would if someone else will confirm his musings. Hasn't happened yet. doug , " " wrote: > > , " " wrote: > It is incredibly disturbing > > that such teachers are ones who pack leacture halls and yet so few can read chinese or > > understand a lab test. > > > I didn't mean to imply Mr. Yuen could not read chinese. I have no idea. I meant there are > much more important pre and post grad subjects for students to study, language and > western med being two. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 I have seen a lot in clients who turn out to have heavy metal toxicity >>>Roger I am curious how do you know it heavy metal toxicity? what do you use to confirm such diagnosis since at this point i do not know of any reliable tests? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.