Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 Severe yang deficiency/desertion/collapse seems to result in false shen rather than false heat as yin and yang separate just before death. >>>Let me give you an example. When in china I spent lots of time at the surgery department. We often had to treat shock. In patients with hypovoluimic shock we often diagnosed them as qi desertion yang collapse. They often had " false " heat signs. We treated them with IV or GI tube sheng mai san plus ru gui and moxa at GV 4. The diagnosis was often false heat yang collapse. I was taught that false heat and false cold are seen when there is a contradictory presentation between root and branch. So while false heat can result from excess yin pathogens it was also used for heat symptoms signs in patients with collapse of yang. I do not know what the " official " term in modern TCM is but I can tell you that in our hospital the above diagnosis was used quite often. And the term false heat was written in the chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 faint pulse verging on expiry >>>This is not the pulse of excess cold (Yin excess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 Is this false heat due to the same mechanisms as " false shen " where shortly before a patient expires, they have a few minutes of apparent health and vigor? -- >>>>>Not necessarily, although is said to be seen when yang is uprooted due to severe deficiency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 > > zrosenberg2001 [zrosenbe] > Friday, November 26, 2004 1:42 PM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > > > At the recent Pacific Symposium, I sat in for a short while on > Jeffrey's Aromatherapy seminar. While I am very interested in the > use of essential oils in medicine, and found Jeffrey's presentation > fascinating, I am trying to figure out how he can market a full- > blown system of using Western essential oils in clinical practice. > Who has tested these out, how do we know, for example the qualities > of clary sage or chamomile oil when applied to specific acupuncture > points? I am skeptical, because it will take a long time to truly > figure out the clinical effectiveness of this system, not to say > determine the quality of these oils from a Chinese medical > perspective. [Jason] Furthermore, I have heard of an acupuncturist in Ohio who dips their needles in Essential oils... Talk about wild stuff... Has anyone else heard of this? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 Qi desertion yang collapse certainly can show heat signs but this pattern is not mentioned in terms of " false heat " . " False heat " seems to have a very specific definition over many texts and is not used in relation to yang collapse; they are different concepts. >>>>I wander if this is true for modern TCM? standardization of terms? or CM in general. I know the term false heat was used with the example I gave regardless of the " standard " definitions you have quoted.Have these terms been used by all authors in china with the same definitions you have quoted? I do not think so because the example I gave comes from a Chinese hospital and used by several TCM practitioners. Perhaps this is another example of the pitfalls of standard " technical " language Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 Perhaps the diagnosis you describe is a combination of " false heat " and " yang collapse " and should be viewed as such; not simplified or interpreted as being equivalent to " true cold false heat " or " false heat " as has been the line of discussion. >>>>I can tell you that the term false heat was used to explain the heat symptoms (and possibly few signs)in these patients with the mechanism being yang loosing its root due to yang deficiency. Many of these patient's never had an excess-cold (or any other yin pathogen) diagnosis or history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 I really think that all this false heat confusion rests in a semantical issue, that as Brian pointed out, screams of some need for standardization. I.e. It is very common (IME) for Chinese and some westerners to refer to vacuity heat (or cold) as false heat (or cold). Furthermore, I have read in non-Wiseman books, (can't remember which) false heat being synonymous with vacuity heat... But, As pointed out Wiseman uses false heat exclusively for this 'severe - separating' type of pattern. So I don't think there is a right and wrong here just different people using the term differently. - > > Steven Slater [laozhongyi] > Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:58 AM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > When false shen appears it is the " last radiance of the setting sun " or > the " last flicker of the candle " and precedes imminent death but does > not have obvious heat signs; it is defined as false signs of vitality > suddenly appearing in seriously ill patients and presents as sudden > garrulousness, improvement in appetite and facial complexion (notice no > mention of heat signs here). > > Severe yang deficiency/desertion/collapse seems to result in false shen > rather than false heat as yin and yang separate just before death. > > False heat patterns while also appearing in serious conditions do not > equate to false shen which is generally considered terminal and lacks > signs of heat per se. > > False heat (true cold) is caused when " exuberant yin cold repels yang " . > Here, the excess internal cold repels the yang to the surface. So the > yang is in RELATIVE deficiency to the EXUBERANT yin cold, the cause is > not a yang deficiency at its root ie. it is not a TRUE deficiency of > yang. It is predominately an cold condition, not a deficiency cold > condition. > > From Wiseman's " Fundamentals " on false heat and cold...... > > " tidal reddening of the face is a heat symptom and, appearing in a > pronounced cold pattern, is at variance with the others signs. This > situation is described as true cold and false heat. " > > " True Cold and False Heat : ......when reversal cold of the limbs, > diarrhea containing untransformed food, and faint pulse verging on > expiry are observed simultaneously with agitation, no aversion to cold, > thirst with desire for warm fluids, in some cases upbearing fire flush > or sore pharynx. Here, the cold signs are caused by exuberant internal > yin cold, while the false heat sings...are attributable to floating of > vacuous yang. " > > Wiseman's PD definitions for floating of vacuous yang:- > 1. Exuberant yin repelling yang. > 2. A pattern of tidal heat [effusion], tender-red complexion, dry mouth > without thirst, and a vacuous rapid pusle arising when yang, deprived > of support through essence-blood depletion, strays upward to the upper > body. > > > From Deng's Practical Diagnosis in TCM...... > > " True cold and false heat (extreme cold appearing as heat)........This > is internal yin exuberance repelling yang to the exterior, caused by > cold and heat repelling each other " . > > According to all the texts I consulted there is no mention of yang > deficiency as such causing false heat. > > I can find no evidence that false heat is due to severe yang deficiency. > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > > > On 28/11/2004, at 5:05 AM, Al Stone wrote: > > > > > On Nov 27, 2004, at 12:43 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > >> I too was under the impression that " false cold/heat " was synonymous > >> with " vacuity cold/heat " . > >>>>> They are not, for example false heat is commonly due to severe yang > >>>>> deficiency (uprooting of yang qi) > > > > Is this false heat due to the same mechanisms as " false shen " where > > shortly before a patient expires, they have a few minutes of apparent > > health and vigor? > > > > -- > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 It is not only Wiseman, false heat or cold is in every Chinese text I consulted as a different pattern to vacuity/deficient/empty heat or cold patterns. The Chinese terms are different, and so is the English. Peoples understanding or " memory " of the correct terms may have faded or never been learnt; but the terms are different and used consistently for very different patterns. Steve On 29/11/2004, at 2:17 AM, wrote: > > I really think that all this false heat confusion rests in a semantical > issue, that as Brian pointed out, screams of some need for > standardization. > I.e. It is very common (IME) for Chinese and some westerners to refer > to > vacuity heat (or cold) as false heat (or cold). Furthermore, I have > read in > non-Wiseman books, (can't remember which) false heat being synonymous > with > vacuity heat... But, As pointed out Wiseman uses false heat > exclusively for > this 'severe - separating' type of pattern. So I don't think there is > a > right and wrong here just different people using the term differently. > > - > > > >> >> Steven Slater [laozhongyi] >> Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:58 AM >> >> Re: pattern diagnosis >> >> >> When false shen appears it is the " last radiance of the setting sun " >> or >> the " last flicker of the candle " and precedes imminent death but does >> not have obvious heat signs; it is defined as false signs of vitality >> suddenly appearing in seriously ill patients and presents as sudden >> garrulousness, improvement in appetite and facial complexion (notice >> no >> mention of heat signs here). >> >> Severe yang deficiency/desertion/collapse seems to result in false >> shen >> rather than false heat as yin and yang separate just before death. >> >> False heat patterns while also appearing in serious conditions do not >> equate to false shen which is generally considered terminal and lacks >> signs of heat per se. >> >> False heat (true cold) is caused when " exuberant yin cold repels >> yang " . >> Here, the excess internal cold repels the yang to the surface. So the >> yang is in RELATIVE deficiency to the EXUBERANT yin cold, the cause is >> not a yang deficiency at its root ie. it is not a TRUE deficiency of >> yang. It is predominately an cold condition, not a deficiency cold >> condition. >> >> From Wiseman's " Fundamentals " on false heat and cold...... >> >> " tidal reddening of the face is a heat symptom and, appearing in a >> pronounced cold pattern, is at variance with the others signs. This >> situation is described as true cold and false heat. " >> >> " True Cold and False Heat : ......when reversal cold of the limbs, >> diarrhea containing untransformed food, and faint pulse verging on >> expiry are observed simultaneously with agitation, no aversion to >> cold, >> thirst with desire for warm fluids, in some cases upbearing fire flush >> or sore pharynx. Here, the cold signs are caused by exuberant internal >> yin cold, while the false heat sings...are attributable to floating of >> vacuous yang. " >> >> Wiseman's PD definitions for floating of vacuous yang:- >> 1. Exuberant yin repelling yang. >> 2. A pattern of tidal heat [effusion], tender-red complexion, dry >> mouth >> without thirst, and a vacuous rapid pusle arising when yang, deprived >> of support through essence-blood depletion, strays upward to the upper >> body. >> >> >> From Deng's Practical Diagnosis in TCM...... >> >> " True cold and false heat (extreme cold appearing as heat)........This >> is internal yin exuberance repelling yang to the exterior, caused by >> cold and heat repelling each other " . >> >> According to all the texts I consulted there is no mention of yang >> deficiency as such causing false heat. >> >> I can find no evidence that false heat is due to severe yang >> deficiency. >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> Steve >> >> >> On 28/11/2004, at 5:05 AM, Al Stone wrote: >> >>> >>> On Nov 27, 2004, at 12:43 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: >>> >>>> I too was under the impression that " false cold/heat " was synonymous >>>> with " vacuity cold/heat " . >>>>>>> They are not, for example false heat is commonly due to severe >>>>>>> yang >>>>>>> deficiency (uprooting of yang qi) >>> >>> Is this false heat due to the same mechanisms as " false shen " where >>> shortly before a patient expires, they have a few minutes of >>> apparent >>> health and vigor? >>> >>> -- >>> >> >> >> >> >> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, >> including >> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and >> a >> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 If a basic part of 8 principle differentiation such as cold and heat, deficiency and excess is semantics why diagnose at all? Patterns of " true heat and false cold " or " true cold and false heat " are excess patterns, deficient/vacuity cold or heat are deficiency patterns......I think the importance of such basic, first step distinctions and being able to communicate them goes beyond any semantics. Steve On 29/11/2004, at 2:17 AM, wrote: > > I really think that all this false heat confusion rests in a semantical > issue, that as Brian pointed out, screams of some need for > standardization. > I.e. It is very common (IME) for Chinese and some westerners to refer > to > vacuity heat (or cold) as false heat (or cold). Furthermore, I have > read in > non-Wiseman books, (can't remember which) false heat being synonymous > with > vacuity heat... But, As pointed out Wiseman uses false heat > exclusively for > this 'severe - separating' type of pattern. So I don't think there is > a > right and wrong here just different people using the term differently. > > - > > > >> >> Steven Slater [laozhongyi] >> Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:58 AM >> >> Re: pattern diagnosis >> >> >> When false shen appears it is the " last radiance of the setting sun " >> or >> the " last flicker of the candle " and precedes imminent death but does >> not have obvious heat signs; it is defined as false signs of vitality >> suddenly appearing in seriously ill patients and presents as sudden >> garrulousness, improvement in appetite and facial complexion (notice >> no >> mention of heat signs here). >> >> Severe yang deficiency/desertion/collapse seems to result in false >> shen >> rather than false heat as yin and yang separate just before death. >> >> False heat patterns while also appearing in serious conditions do not >> equate to false shen which is generally considered terminal and lacks >> signs of heat per se. >> >> False heat (true cold) is caused when " exuberant yin cold repels >> yang " . >> Here, the excess internal cold repels the yang to the surface. So the >> yang is in RELATIVE deficiency to the EXUBERANT yin cold, the cause is >> not a yang deficiency at its root ie. it is not a TRUE deficiency of >> yang. It is predominately an cold condition, not a deficiency cold >> condition. >> >> From Wiseman's " Fundamentals " on false heat and cold...... >> >> " tidal reddening of the face is a heat symptom and, appearing in a >> pronounced cold pattern, is at variance with the others signs. This >> situation is described as true cold and false heat. " >> >> " True Cold and False Heat : ......when reversal cold of the limbs, >> diarrhea containing untransformed food, and faint pulse verging on >> expiry are observed simultaneously with agitation, no aversion to >> cold, >> thirst with desire for warm fluids, in some cases upbearing fire flush >> or sore pharynx. Here, the cold signs are caused by exuberant internal >> yin cold, while the false heat sings...are attributable to floating of >> vacuous yang. " >> >> Wiseman's PD definitions for floating of vacuous yang:- >> 1. Exuberant yin repelling yang. >> 2. A pattern of tidal heat [effusion], tender-red complexion, dry >> mouth >> without thirst, and a vacuous rapid pusle arising when yang, deprived >> of support through essence-blood depletion, strays upward to the upper >> body. >> >> >> From Deng's Practical Diagnosis in TCM...... >> >> " True cold and false heat (extreme cold appearing as heat)........This >> is internal yin exuberance repelling yang to the exterior, caused by >> cold and heat repelling each other " . >> >> According to all the texts I consulted there is no mention of yang >> deficiency as such causing false heat. >> >> I can find no evidence that false heat is due to severe yang >> deficiency. >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> Steve >> >> >> On 28/11/2004, at 5:05 AM, Al Stone wrote: >> >>> >>> On Nov 27, 2004, at 12:43 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: >>> >>>> I too was under the impression that " false cold/heat " was synonymous >>>> with " vacuity cold/heat " . >>>>>>> They are not, for example false heat is commonly due to severe >>>>>>> yang >>>>>>> deficiency (uprooting of yang qi) >>> >>> Is this false heat due to the same mechanisms as " false shen " where >>> shortly before a patient expires, they have a few minutes of >>> apparent >>> health and vigor? >>> >>> -- >>> >> >> >> >> >> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, >> including >> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and >> a >> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 D, He may be the real deal, but until we have either some source(s) that support his ideas or more importantly how he treats such conditions how can we evaluate what he says... If we have never heard of his idea (and can't find it anywhere) and have no idea what herbs he uses to treat such a condition, it makes it very hard to say anything intelligent either way about it, except - does not compute. -Jason > > [] > Saturday, November 27, 2004 8:09 PM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > > Yeah, I don't know about Jeffery Yuen, meaning I am ambivilant. After > years of his teaching > he seems to be as enigmatic as ever. The reason I brought a couple of his > concepts here is > to see if they held water at all. The result is we can't really seem to > get into a discussion > because we are still arguing about the TCM implications. > > I would like to think he is a source, if he really does read all the books > he lectures about. > And if he was actually taught all these things. The last lecture I saw him, > he was talking > about Li Dong Yuan and it was downright understandable and dare I say... > mundane. Good > introduction but (notably for him) nothing earthshaking. > > What I worry about is that he is pandering to the Americans. You want > essential oils? I got > essential oils! You want pyscho-emotional? I got psycho-emotional! (I > think Al Stone first > brought this idea out front.) > > In a way I don't worry about him being authentic cause I think he is real > deal in terms of > be he a huckster or an authentic transmitter. Both are > within the > tradition. What I (we) worry about are students getting on the wagon. And > you know we all > would if someone else will confirm his musings. Hasn't happened yet. > > doug > > > , " " > wrote: > > > > , " " > wrote: > > It is incredibly disturbing > > > that such teachers are ones who pack leacture halls and yet so few can > read chinese > or > > > understand a lab test. > > > > > > I didn't mean to imply Mr. Yuen could not read chinese. I have no idea. > I meant there > are > > much more important pre and post grad subjects for students to study, > language and > > western med being two. > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 > > Steven Slater [laozhongyi] > Sunday, November 28, 2004 8:23 AM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > It is not only Wiseman, false heat or cold is in every Chinese text I > consulted as a different pattern to vacuity/deficient/empty heat or > cold patterns. [Jason] But I think you are missing the point... I have been in schools where the term 'false heat' is taught as a vacuity heat. Right or wrong, book or not, it exists... that is the point! But I agree, 'false & vacuity' are separate terms and I DO believe that one should differentiate them. (So I take back my below statement, I think there is a right or wrong from a Chinese perspective, but if a student was taught a certain term, one can only blame terminology / teacher, but there concept of the term should be intact, albeit confusing to all of us) Steven, I assume you see a standard definition that the Chinese all use for false heat, could you present it again... - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 VERY large grain of salt. Grouping together and simplification of concepts/explanations was the norm rather than the exception via this pathway. >>>>>Well that is part of what we face, including when one tries to make a standard terminological language. While it is always nice to be able to trace concepts and particular terms, what are we to do with the diversity that we hear in the real world? I do not have a good answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 Rather than another example of the pitfalls of standard technical language, perhaps this is due to the very problem proponents of standard terminology are fighting against. >>>>>By the way when the patient was diagnosed with false heat due to excess yin (i.e. cold) the formula used was sheng mai san with fu zi instead of ru gui.This was clearly seen as a pattern diagnosis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 I agree 100% with everything Todd says here. I was actually saddened by seeing the large crowds at this lecture, jotting down every note as if it were gospel. I was surprised that students were not at all critical of a full-blown system delivered without any sources or references to speak of. While I am personally excited by the possibilities of the use of essential oils in Chinese medicine, and feel there are precedents in the use of herbal moxabustion, it will take decades of work and research to develop a reliable system. They cannot be borne full-blown out of the inspiration of a single teacher. To practice such a system uncritically is not only foolhardy, but dangerous, because it is real-life patients who will be experimented on. We need to develop a sense of rigor about Chinese medicine, and we either need to share data in a responsible way, or not release it to an uncritical profession. , " " wrote: > > this is nature cure philosophy pure and simple. all disease is toxin. the healing crisis is > essential. all use of herbs addressed at symptom relief is suppressive. if Yuen's position > is based in something other than naturopathic philosophy, he should cite his chinese > sources. Otherwise, he leads a school of thought within OM with no textual evidence or > modern research to back it up. If people want to just take his word or be seduced by his > personal charisma, so be it. But as I have said many times, what appeals to me about CM > is its history, its texts, the gnereal consensus that has developed on many things. If all > there really is to CM is a set of ideas that anyone is free to manipulate as they please > without regard to either science or history, we have nothing. However it has never been > this way in the past and we should not allow it to be this way now. > > I recently saw Yuen's handouts on the TCM properties of essential oils. The student who > showed it to me was excited that he had gone to such detail in attributing channels and > flavors and such. I was less enthusiastic. No where in his notes was there any mention of > how he determined all these things. Because they are probably all based upon idle > speculation, not the work of a scholar who cites his sources. We don't really need any > more of this in the field. in fact, we need as little as possible. It is incredibly disturbing > that such teachers are ones who pack leacture halls and yet so few can read chinese or > understand a lab test. Let's not get the cart before the horse here. If students are > exposed to too much tripe before they learn to properly discriminate between things, they > will be lost forever. It is like never reading the western literary canon and then spending > the rest of your life ranting about what's wrong with it. Oh yeah, that is what goes on in > liberal arts colleges these days. What a surprise this virus has infected us as well. The > current influx of youngsters freshly polluted from these environs into our schools > probably does not bode well for the field. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 , " " <@c...> wrote: But I agree, 'false & vacuity' are separate > terms and I DO believe that one should differentiate them. (So I take back > my below statement, I think there is a right or wrong from a Chinese > perspective, but if a student was taught a certain term, one can only blame > terminology / teacher, but there concept of the term should be intact, > albeit confusing to all of us) This debate exemplifies the need for a transparent terminology that is easily traced to the source term. Regardless of actual term choice, the student should be able to know what the author or teacher is talking about in every case. It is ludicrous to continually have to define terms when having a professional discussion. I cannot believe how many of the posts on this topic are devoted solely to figuring out what the other person was actually talking about when he used the terms false and vacuity in a previous post. The topic itself is interesting in relation to Yuen's theories, SHL and TCM in general, but doesn't this really prove why a profession needs a standard terminology. So we do not spend more than half our time just trying to get on the same page. Granted this distinction is a simple one upon which all translators would agree there is a real difference and real risk of confusion. And yet this simple confusion still prevails in the classroom even today (we were fussing about it over 10 years ago). I can only imagine what much more complex confusions arise when the differences between less common concepts are obscured by such a lack of translational rigor. BTW, this is the only level of the terminology discussion I will participate in - concrete examples for and against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 On 29/11/2004, at 3:59 AM, wrote: >> >> It is not only Wiseman, false heat or cold is in every Chinese text I >> consulted as a different pattern to vacuity/deficient/empty heat or >> cold patterns. > [Jason] > But I think you are missing the point... I have been in schools where > the > term 'false heat' is taught as a vacuity heat. Right or wrong, book > or not, > it exists... that is the point! If you look hard enough, you will find someone says everything; this does no make it correct or useful. The point I was trying to make is that using " false heat " as synonymous with " vacuity/deficiency heat " is simply not supported in texts. I was not missing the point that some may use it that way, my point was that it is simply wrong when it is used that way. > But I agree, 'false & vacuity' are separate > terms and I DO believe that one should differentiate them. (So I take > back > my below statement, I think there is a right or wrong from a Chinese > perspective, but if a student was taught a certain term, one can only > blame > terminology / teacher, but there concept of the term should be intact, > albeit confusing to all of us) > > Steven, I assume you see a standard definition that the Chinese all > use for > false heat, could you present it again... > False heat is due to extreme cold - there is some debate over whether this cold is only due to exuberant yin repelling yang (my findings in all texts I consulted) or may on occasion involve severe vacuity of yang losing its root and floating to the body surface (see Alon's posts), whereas Vacuity/deficiency heat is due to deficiency of yin. The implications in clinic for assuming they are the same are obvious ie. they require opposite approaches:- False heat is actually due to cold (relative?) and must be treating using heat. Vacuity heat is due to a " relative excess " of heat and is treated by clearing the heat and nourishing yin. Fortunately, very few of us will ever come across a case of " false heat " in a clinical situation in the west and even if we did, it is doubtful we would have the necessary tools at hand to address it. However, if we EVER assumed it was deficiency heat and tried to clear heat or added cold to the condition........we would probably end that persons condition........ahhh......permanently. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 This example in some ways, does demonstrate a need for standardization, which surely would make certain communication easier, it also seems evident that multiple Chinese are using the term differently than what the industry standard was supposed to be (presented by Steven - I think?) via our standard texts. Therefore, we need to except that until the Chinese come to 100% agreement / standardization (which I feel is somewhat of a pipedream for the near future) we need to be flexible for different uses, regardless of what 1 or 2 textbooks we are looking at say. This exemplifies, IMO, how an English standardization [of definitions] fails when the sources (the Chinese) are not following the same suit; Such standardization not only can create a false sense of truth but an over zealous, 'I'm right and your wrong' attitude. But let us look at this example more closely. wants to know the term so one can source it and trace it...What does that mean? I assume that since most people don't read Chinese, it means look it up in the PD... I argue in this case it did not help us, but confined us to a meaning defined by the PD, Deng (Wiseman termed book) or Fundamentals (I think that is where Steven got the info from)... The term is limited in scope (as defined previously) and as soon as another author or Chinese Doctor uses it differently ever one freaks out, telling Alon et al that he must be remembering things wrong, or the Chinese are simplifying things for him etc etc... because 'the book' clearly defines it as i.e. 'Only Excess.' Or that the Chinese is just simply wrong or they are presenting a dumbed down version. I argue the contrary, it is more expansive to see it in the multiple ways that it is used, not the 1 version presented (previously). Yes the world would be easier if everyone used the term the same way, but here is a perfect example that reality doesn't fit our textbook understanding and because of that one has an incomplete clinical picture. - P.S. On a similar vein of limited scope; I came across something that puzzled me for a bit.. In a Chinese passage the term ancestral sinew was used...I asked what does one think this means? One can look at the PD and get an Idea... Unfortunately the usage had nothing to do with anything that I had heard of before or listed in the PD... Although the Zhongyidacidian had the usage listed... If I never looked I could have a very wrong understanding of the passage... Point being one must be careful... Quite interesting... > > > Sunday, November 28, 2004 8:04 PM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > > , " " <@c...> > wrote: > But I agree, 'false & vacuity' are separate > > terms and I DO believe that one should differentiate them. (So I take > back > > my below statement, I think there is a right or wrong from a Chinese > > perspective, but if a student was taught a certain term, one can only > blame > > terminology / teacher, but there concept of the term should be intact, > > albeit confusing to all of us) > > This debate exemplifies the need for a transparent terminology that is > easily traced to the > source term. Regardless of actual term choice, the student should be able > to know what > the author or teacher is talking about in every case. It is ludicrous to > continually have to > define terms when having a professional discussion. I cannot believe how > many of the > posts on this topic are devoted solely to figuring out what the other > person was actually > talking about when he used the terms false and vacuity in a previous post. > The topic itself > is interesting in relation to Yuen's theories, SHL and TCM in general, but > doesn't this really > prove why a profession needs a standard terminology. So we do not spend > more than half > our time just trying to get on the same page. Granted this distinction is > a simple one > upon which all translators would agree there is a real difference and real > risk of confusion. > And yet this simple confusion still prevails in the classroom even today > (we were fussing > about it over 10 years ago). I can only imagine what much more complex > confusions arise > when the differences between less common concepts are obscured by such a > lack of > translational rigor. BTW, this is the only level of the terminology > discussion I will > participate in - concrete examples for and against. > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 On 29/11/2004, at 2:39 PM, wrote: > > > > This example in some ways, does demonstrate a need for standardization, > which surely would make certain communication easier, it also seems > evident > that multiple Chinese are using the term differently than what the > industry > standard was supposed to be (presented by Steven - I think?) via our > standard texts. I must have missed your examples of where the chinese use the term " False heat " as " deficiency heat " and vice versa. Can you show me again? > Therefore, we need to except that until the Chinese come to > 100% agreement / standardization (which I feel is somewhat of a > pipedream > for the near future) we need to be flexible for different uses, > regardless > of what 1 or 2 textbooks we are looking at say. This exemplifies, > IMO, how > an English standardization [of definitions] fails when the sources (the > Chinese) are not following the same suit; Such standardization not > only can > create a false sense of truth but an over zealous, 'I'm right and your > wrong' attitude. But let us look at this example more closely. > wants to know the term so one can source it and trace it...What > does > that mean? I assume that since most people don't read Chinese, it > means > look it up in the PD... I argue in this case it did not help us, but > confined us to a meaning defined by the PD, Deng (Wiseman termed book) > or > Fundamentals (I think that is where Steven got the info from)... The > term is > limited in scope (as defined previously) and as soon as another author > or > Chinese Doctor uses it differently ever one freaks out, telling Alon > et al > that he must be remembering things wrong, or the Chinese are > simplifying > things for him etc etc... because 'the book' clearly defines it as i.e. > 'Only Excess.' Or that the Chinese is just simply wrong or they are > presenting a dumbed down version. I argue the contrary, it is more > expansive to see it in the multiple ways that it is used, not the 1 > version > presented (previously). Yes the world would be easier if everyone > used the > term the same way, but here is a perfect example that reality doesn't > fit > our textbook understanding and because of that one has an incomplete > clinical picture. > I didn't use only Wisemanese texts Jason. My first post point Al Stone directly to the book he was already reading, that is Advanced textbook of Traditional and Pharmacology. I also consulted other Chinese written texts that do NOT use Wiseman. Practical Traditional by Prof. Xue zhufan uses the term " pseudo cold and pseudo heat " for jia re etc. It separates it from deficiency heat and deficiency cold as I have presented. This does not use " false " but it certainly does not use deficiency in terms of pseudo/false and this is my point. I could go on and give more references but I won't. I have yet to see you give one to support the contention that false and deficiency are synonyms. The discussion of false heat or cold is always found in the 8 principles section of cold and heat. All these texts state that when cold or heat syndromes develop to their EXTREMES, it may transform to its opposite and manifest with false appearances. This is ALWAYS different to the presentation of deficiency heat. My point is, and I stand by it.........is that " false heat " and " deficiency heat " are not the same in any text I consulted. Where some person got the idea that they are synonymous I have no idea. Perhaps they could actually present an example. My discussions with Alon did NEVER involved a debate over whether false heat was the same as deficiency heat. We were both on the same page on that. Our opinions differed simply on whether false heat itself could come from only exuberant yin cold or also from yang xu. The simple fact is that the Chiense have simplified much of TCM for the west, but that is now changing as a larger terminology base is developing. Also, memory is not always reliable, that is WHY I actually take the time to look up things to make sure before I assume my MEMORY is correct. If more did the same, we would not have such foolish mistakes as assuming xu re = jia re. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 On 30/11/2004, at 6:00 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > Fortunately, very few of us will ever come across a case of " false > heat " >>>> Again that would be a question stile. One of the Dr is studied with >>>> (the same one bob demon did)diagnosed false heat in out-patients >>>> quite often. He did use this diagnosis in patient with unrooted >>>> yang. > > > Fair point. However, I think we are in agreement that false heat is not deficient heat and treating them as the same could have disastrous repercussions. Our only debate is whether false heat can be due to sever yang xu. I don't think we ever argued over the fact that false heat is a different beast to deficiency heat. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 Steven, We are clearly saying the same thing here. We both agree that false heat is different from vacuity heat and like I said previously I have never seen a Chinese book use the terms synonymously. But that does not change the fact that people disagree with us, and use the term differently. And that was all my post was saying, it is a semantical issue - defined as 'one of meaning'. That is it... And it is not like 1 guy out there is saying this I have been at 2 schools where students have thought that these two terms are the same... So although I agree with your stance here, IMO I think we should be a little more lenient with who we say is right or WRONG. For clearly you were calling Alon wrong a few posts ago for saying something different than your belief, but it was shown that the Chinese do actually use the term as Alon stated. (Unless I missed something...)... [steven, furthermore, Stated:] " Vacuity/deficiency heat is due to deficiency of yin. " [Jason] I disagree... I contend that vacuity heat is not just heat from yin deficiency. But from any deficiency (meaning yang xu, qi xu, blood xu etc)... Again this broader usage is used by the Chinese. And I also agree with you that of course there are different treatment approaches required for false and vacuous heat (defined through Wiseman). Furthermore Steven stated that " Fortunately, very few of us will ever come across a case of " false heat " in a clinical situation in the west and even if we did, it is doubtful we would have the necessary tools at hand to address it... " This again demonstrates IMO a limited view of what false heat is... In the Chinese Literature it is not always life threatening, and one should look for signs in everyday clinical reality, and we do have the tools to deal with it... but I agree the false heat true cold reference (i.e. Fundamentals) does paint a picture that sounds more acute and life threatening... But again, Chinese are using the term differently than just that one view you have / presented... Keep the mind open, for things are rarely black and white, - > > Steven Slater [laozhongyi] > Sunday, November 28, 2004 8:23 PM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > > On 29/11/2004, at 3:59 AM, wrote: > >> > >> It is not only Wiseman, false heat or cold is in every Chinese text I > >> consulted as a different pattern to vacuity/deficient/empty heat or > >> cold patterns. > > [Jason] > > But I think you are missing the point... I have been in schools where > > the > > term 'false heat' is taught as a vacuity heat. Right or wrong, book > > or not, > > it exists... that is the point! > > If you look hard enough, you will find someone says everything; this > does no make it correct or useful. The point I was trying to make is > that using " false heat " as synonymous with " vacuity/deficiency heat " is > simply not supported in texts. > > I was not missing the point that some may use it that way, my point was > that it is simply wrong when it is used that way. > > > > But I agree, 'false & vacuity' are separate > > terms and I DO believe that one should differentiate them. (So I take > > back > > my below statement, I think there is a right or wrong from a Chinese > > perspective, but if a student was taught a certain term, one can only > > blame > > terminology / teacher, but there concept of the term should be intact, > > albeit confusing to all of us) > > > > Steven, I assume you see a standard definition that the Chinese all > > use for > > false heat, could you present it again... > > > > False heat is due to extreme cold - there is some debate over whether > this cold is only due to exuberant yin repelling yang (my findings in > all texts I consulted) or may on occasion involve severe vacuity of > yang losing its root and floating to the body surface (see Alon's > posts), whereas > > Vacuity/deficiency heat is due to deficiency of yin. > > The implications in clinic for assuming they are the same are obvious > ie. they require opposite approaches:- > > False heat is actually due to cold (relative?) and must be treating > using heat. > Vacuity heat is due to a " relative excess " of heat and is treated by > clearing the heat and nourishing yin. > > Fortunately, very few of us will ever come across a case of " false > heat " in a clinical situation in the west and even if we did, it is > doubtful we would have the necessary tools at hand to address it. > However, if we EVER assumed it was deficiency heat and tried to clear > heat or added cold to the condition........we would probably end that > persons condition........ahhh......permanently. > > > Steve > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 > > Steven Slater [laozhongyi] > Sunday, November 28, 2004 9:02 PM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > > On 29/11/2004, at 2:39 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > This example in some ways, does demonstrate a need for standardization, > > which surely would make certain communication easier, it also seems > > evident > > that multiple Chinese are using the term differently than what the > > industry > > standard was supposed to be (presented by Steven - I think?) via our > > standard texts. > > I must have missed your examples of where the chinese use the term > " False heat " as " deficiency heat " and vice versa. [Jason] You are missing the point... > > Can you show me again? > > > Therefore, we need to except that until the Chinese come to > > 100% agreement / standardization (which I feel is somewhat of a > > pipedream > > for the near future) we need to be flexible for different uses, > > regardless > > of what 1 or 2 textbooks we are looking at say. This exemplifies, > > IMO, how > > an English standardization [of definitions] fails when the sources (the > > Chinese) are not following the same suit; Such standardization not > > only can > > create a false sense of truth but an over zealous, 'I'm right and your > > wrong' attitude. But let us look at this example more closely. > > > wants to know the term so one can source it and trace it...What > > does > > that mean? I assume that since most people don't read Chinese, it > > means > > look it up in the PD... I argue in this case it did not help us, but > > confined us to a meaning defined by the PD, Deng (Wiseman termed book) > > or > > Fundamentals (I think that is where Steven got the info from)... The > > term is > > limited in scope (as defined previously) and as soon as another author > > or > > Chinese Doctor uses it differently ever one freaks out, telling Alon > > et al > > that he must be remembering things wrong, or the Chinese are > > simplifying > > things for him etc etc... because 'the book' clearly defines it as i.e. > > 'Only Excess.' Or that the Chinese is just simply wrong or they are > > presenting a dumbed down version. I argue the contrary, it is more > > expansive to see it in the multiple ways that it is used, not the 1 > > version > > presented (previously). Yes the world would be easier if everyone > > used the > > term the same way, but here is a perfect example that reality doesn't > > fit > > our textbook understanding and because of that one has an incomplete > > clinical picture. > > > > I didn't use only Wisemanese texts Jason. My first post point Al Stone > directly to the book he was already reading, that is Advanced textbook > of Traditional and Pharmacology. > > I also consulted other Chinese written texts that do NOT use Wiseman. [Jason] So I assume you read Chinese...? Please re-read my post carefully, this is how all this hoopla always starts... I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT I THINK that the Chinese use vacuity and false synonymously - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - My point is something different. Please re-read... - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 > > Steven Slater [laozhongyi] > Sunday, November 28, 2004 9:04 PM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > > On 30/11/2004, at 6:00 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > > > Fortunately, very few of us will ever come across a case of " false > > heat " > >>>> Again that would be a question stile. One of the Dr is studied with > >>>> (the same one bob demon did)diagnosed false heat in out-patients > >>>> quite often. He did use this diagnosis in patient with unrooted > >>>> yang. > > > > > > > Fair point. However, I think we are in agreement that false heat is not > deficient heat and treating them as the same could have disastrous > repercussions. Our only debate is whether false heat can be due to > sever yang xu. [Jason] Yes and my example, presented, stated that it can come from yang xu.. That was my point... -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 On 29/11/2004, at 3:18 PM, wrote: > [Jason] > So I assume you read Chinese...? > Getting there. > Please re-read my post carefully, this is how all this hoopla always > starts... I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT I THINK that the Chinese use vacuity > and > false synonymously - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - My point is something different. > Please re-read... > > - > Yes, this is how the hoopla starts and it often seems to be people misunderstanding what YOU say. So rather than try to work out what you are trying to say versus what you actually say...........I will just leave it. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 While I don't know for sure, I suspect that the Chinese use jia re/false heat consistently. In the Fundamentals text, it describes it as internal exuberance of yin-cold and vacuous yang floating astray, which produces the false heat symptoms. Fundamentals, being an introductory text in basic tcm, may not have all the different causes and pathomechanisms of false heat and false cold that might be found in more advanced Chinese texts, nor the complications and combinations that occur in the surgery dept in shock as in Alon's experience. Nonetheless, in spite the passage of 20 years, Fundamentals is still about the most reliable basic text we have in terms of being faithful to the Chinese concepts. That makes it a good place to turn, but it doesn't mean that it contains everything possible. I would not doubt that false heat can occur in other patterns beyond the basic ones listed in an OM 1 text. But I suspect that the Chinese typically never call vacuity heat by the name false heat. Does anyone know of an example where they do this in Chinese? I don't think Alon was presenting examples that were not cases of true cold with heat signs, he was describing the administration of meds to treat a cold condition, not xu heat. I think false heat implies true cold, that is why the heat is false. If it were replete or vacuous heat, it would be a normal heat pattern, not a false heat pattern. The fact that people use false heat to describe vacuity heat does not mean that they are using the term correctly. Naturally, evidence that this is a point of confusion in Chinese would be welcome, otherwise it is probably a confusion resulting from the Western transmission of Chinese medicine. It'd be great if you'd like to share the other meanings of the term ancestral sinew. If it is frequently encountered, the alternate definition should be added to future editions of the PD so that it is clear for future readers. I thought 'ancestral sinew' was just a euphemism for penis, I'd be happy to know other meanings of it and I don't have a Chinese dictionary on hand at the moment. Such a fun term should be elaborated on. Eric Brand , " " <@c...> wrote: > > > This example in some ways, does demonstrate a need for standardization, > which surely would make certain communication easier, it also seems evident > that multiple Chinese are using the term differently than what the industry > standard was supposed to be (presented by Steven - I think?) via our > standard texts. Therefore, we need to except that until the Chinese come to > 100% agreement / standardization (which I feel is somewhat of a pipedream > for the near future) we need to be flexible for different uses, regardless > of what 1 or 2 textbooks we are looking at say. This exemplifies, IMO, how > an English standardization [of definitions] fails when the sources (the > Chinese) are not following the same suit; Such standardization not only can > create a false sense of truth but an over zealous, 'I'm right and your > wrong' attitude. But let us look at this example more closely. > wants to know the term so one can source it and trace it...What does > that mean? I assume that since most people don't read Chinese, it means > look it up in the PD... I argue in this case it did not help us, but > confined us to a meaning defined by the PD, Deng (Wiseman termed book) or > Fundamentals (I think that is where Steven got the info from)... The term is > limited in scope (as defined previously) and as soon as another author or > Chinese Doctor uses it differently ever one freaks out, telling Alon et al > that he must be remembering things wrong, or the Chinese are simplifying > things for him etc etc... because 'the book' clearly defines it as i.e. > 'Only Excess.' Or that the Chinese is just simply wrong or they are > presenting a dumbed down version. I argue the contrary, it is more > expansive to see it in the multiple ways that it is used, not the 1 version > presented (previously). Yes the world would be easier if everyone used the > term the same way, but here is a perfect example that reality doesn't fit > our textbook understanding and because of that one has an incomplete > clinical picture. > > - > > P.S. On a similar vein of limited scope; I came across something that > puzzled me for a bit.. In a Chinese passage the term ancestral sinew was > used...I asked what does one think this means? One can look at the PD and > get an Idea... Unfortunately the usage had nothing to do with anything that > I had heard of before or listed in the PD... Although the Zhongyidacidian > had the usage listed... If I never looked I could have a very wrong > understanding of the passage... Point being one must be careful... Quite > interesting... > > > > > > > [@c...] > > Sunday, November 28, 2004 8:04 PM > > > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > > > > > > , " " <@c...> > > wrote: > > But I agree, 'false & vacuity' are separate > > > terms and I DO believe that one should differentiate them. (So I take > > back > > > my below statement, I think there is a right or wrong from a Chinese > > > perspective, but if a student was taught a certain term, one can only > > blame > > > terminology / teacher, but there concept of the term should be intact, > > > albeit confusing to all of us) > > > > This debate exemplifies the need for a transparent terminology that is > > easily traced to the > > source term. Regardless of actual term choice, the student should be able > > to know what > > the author or teacher is talking about in every case. It is ludicrous to > > continually have to > > define terms when having a professional discussion. I cannot believe how > > many of the > > posts on this topic are devoted solely to figuring out what the other > > person was actually > > talking about when he used the terms false and vacuity in a previous post. > > The topic itself > > is interesting in relation to Yuen's theories, SHL and TCM in general, but > > doesn't this really > > prove why a profession needs a standard terminology. So we do not spend > > more than half > > our time just trying to get on the same page. Granted this distinction is > > a simple one > > upon which all translators would agree there is a real difference and real > > risk of confusion. > > And yet this simple confusion still prevails in the classroom even today > > (we were fussing > > about it over 10 years ago). I can only imagine what much more complex > > confusions arise > > when the differences between less common concepts are obscured by such a > > lack of > > translational rigor. BTW, this is the only level of the terminology > > discussion I will > > participate in - concrete examples for and against. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 On 30/11/2004, at 7:04 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > false heat is not > deficient heat >>>> No question, but if one is writing the term connotatively all this >>>> discussion just goes away, since hopefully every one knows the >>>> difference between the clinical description we are talking about. >>>> This is basic TCM 101. > > Hi Alon, I totally agree that the clinical descriptions of false heat versus deficicncy heat are TCM 101. My concern and this was the part of this thread that brought up this issue was that some (many?) thought that false heat was just a different term for deficiency heat. If someone believes these two terms are synomyns, what is the alternative term for the " false heat " (jia re) that is very different from " deficicney heat " (xu re)? This was my initial concern and remains my concern. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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