Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 vacuity heat (or cold) as false heat (or cold). >>>I have never seen anyone talking about empty/vacuity/deficiency-heat as false heat. Perhaps you can give me the name of the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 > > Steven Slater [laozhongyi] > Sunday, November 28, 2004 10:20 PM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > > On 30/11/2004, at 7:04 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > > > false heat is not > > deficient heat > >>>> No question, but if one is writing the term connotatively all this > >>>> discussion just goes away, since hopefully every one knows the > >>>> difference between the clinical description we are talking about. > >>>> This is basic TCM 101. > > > > > > Hi Alon, > > I totally agree that the clinical descriptions of false heat versus > deficicncy heat are TCM 101. My concern and this was the part of this > thread that brought up this issue was that some (many?) thought that > false heat was just a different term for deficiency heat. [Jason] Just so everyone is on the same page... 1)I Agree here 100%, this misuse does not represent the Chinese texts that I have seen... Although I have heard Western teachers, as well as Chinese teachers, use the term 'false heat' to mean vacuous heat (like it or not)... It is purely a 'verbal' transmissional error that is somewhat prevalent...Because of this, western authors have also used this term incorrectly (in writing)... (I AM NOT saying I agree with this)... Look at this entry for Tian Men Dong: " # Asparagus Root (Tian Men Dong) Tuber Asparagi Cochinchinensis Common Name: Asparagus Fern Tuber Family: Liliaceae Energy and Flavor: sweet, bitter and cold Organ Meridian Affected: Lung and Kidney Properties: yin tonic, nutritive, demulcent, expectorant Indications: This herb is indicated for yin deficiency of the lung and kidney when there are signs of ***false heat*** because of the yin deficiency. It is used for lung abscesses and hot sputum that may contain blood and is difficult to expectorate. It moistens the dryness of yin deficiency and lubricates the intestines when there is constipation due to dry intestines. " Clearly a misuse... but shows that people use this term that way. That is all... For Steven (et al) - I Don't think anyone on the list has said that the 2 terms are synonymous. 2) All the other information I posted has do with the limited view of False heat (as the real 'false heat true cold'). I.e. That it must come from Excess and that it is acute life-threatening. Nothing to do with vacuity heat... These are 2 separate issues... I Hope that is clear. - > > If someone believes these two terms are synomyns, what is the > alternative term for the " false heat " (jia re) that is very different > from " deficicney heat " (xu re)? This was my initial concern and remains > my concern. > > Steve > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 On 30/11/2004, at 1:06 AM, wrote: > For Steven (et al) - I Don't think anyone on the list has said that > the 2 > terms are synonymous. > > I know you don't think they are the same thing Jason, but this thread (before you joined) turned to the definitions of false and vacuity heat because some thought they were the same.ie. synonymous. Perhaps much of this is just a result of coming in half way along a conversation. Best Wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 S, (Sorry, I did come in half way, but I thought I read all the posts....) It just seemed like you were saying that I was saying they were synonymous, and then asking me to produce Chinese sources... Oh well... anyway, who are these heathens saying that such terms are identical, let's go get em'.... -Jason > > Steven Slater [laozhongyi] > Monday, November 29, 2004 7:10 AM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > > On 30/11/2004, at 1:06 AM, wrote: > > > For Steven (et al) - I Don't think anyone on the list has said that > > the 2 > > terms are synonymous. > > > > > > I know you don't think they are the same thing Jason, but this thread > (before you joined) turned to the definitions of false and vacuity heat > because some thought they were the same.ie. synonymous. > > Perhaps much of this is just a result of coming in half way along a > conversation. > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 > > Alon Marcus [alonmarcus] > Monday, November 29, 2004 1:05 PM > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > false heat is not > deficient heat > >>>No question, but if one is writing the term connotatively all this > discussion just goes away, since hopefully every one knows the difference > between the clinical description we are talking about. This is basic TCM > 101. > [Jason] I think that this is a good point... One can get worked up about the perfect definition or term choice, but if instead (like the tian men dong example) one just uses their brain and tries to figure out what the author is saying within the context it is less an issue. This happens when one reads Chinese why shouldn't we expect this in English... [Again not agreeing with the false heat use in the Tian Men Dong example] In so doing this, just maybe, one will have a broader view and use of a term, and in getting out of the box, quite possibly a broader clinical perspective... -Jason > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 > [Jason] > Just so everyone is on the same page... > > 1)I Agree here 100%, this misuse does not represent the Chinese texts that I > have seen... Although I have heard Western teachers, as well as Chinese > teachers, use the term 'false heat' to mean vacuous heat (like it or not)... > It is purely a 'verbal' transmissional error that is somewhat > prevalent...Because of this, western authors have also used this term > incorrectly (in writing)... I agree with you. I think the use of false heat to describe vacuity/deficiency heat is just a verbal transmission error. It is not hard to see how it would be explained in this way, nor is it hard for an educated person to understand the meaning even if the term is not used correctly. People take what they hear and then write it down without considering that a new student who might be reading their writing doesn't understand the concepts of false and true heat. Students might be confused by getting a mixed message, but we basically get used to discrepancies in English CM literature by necessity anyway. > 2) All the other information I posted has do with the limited view of False > heat (as the real 'false heat true cold'). No contest there. We all agree that false heat true cold is different from xu heat, even though the term false heat is mistakenly used for xu heat. Real false heat could likely show up from a variety of causes in varying degrees of severity. The example you presented to show the error through mai men dong has a bigger issue that I have long been curious about. It is described as nutritive, demulcent, expectorant. Does anyone know where these concepts come from? They would be commonly applied to Western herbs, and I assume they have to do with pharmacology. I'm not sure whether they come from a distorted translation of traditional properties, or from translation of Chinese pharmaceutical literature, or whether they are made up to fit the experience and understanding of Western authors. Eric , " " <@c...> wrote: > > > > > > Steven Slater [laozhongyi@m...] > > Sunday, November 28, 2004 10:20 PM > > > > Re: pattern diagnosis > > > > > > > > On 30/11/2004, at 7:04 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > > > > > > false heat is not > > > deficient heat > > >>>> No question, but if one is writing the term connotatively all this > > >>>> discussion just goes away, since hopefully every one knows the > > >>>> difference between the clinical description we are talking about. > > >>>> This is basic TCM 101. > > > > > > > > > > Hi Alon, > > > > I totally agree that the clinical descriptions of false heat versus > > deficicncy heat are TCM 101. My concern and this was the part of this > > thread that brought up this issue was that some (many?) thought that > > false heat was just a different term for deficiency heat. > [Jason] > Just so everyone is on the same page... > > 1)I Agree here 100%, this misuse does not represent the Chinese texts that I > have seen... Although I have heard Western teachers, as well as Chinese > teachers, use the term 'false heat' to mean vacuous heat (like it or not)... > It is purely a 'verbal' transmissional error that is somewhat > prevalent...Because of this, western authors have also used this term > incorrectly (in writing)... (I AM NOT saying I agree with this)... Look at > this entry for Tian Men Dong: > > " # Asparagus Root (Tian Men Dong) > Tuber Asparagi Cochinchinensis > Common Name: Asparagus Fern Tuber > Family: Liliaceae > Energy and Flavor: sweet, bitter and cold > Organ Meridian Affected: Lung and Kidney > > Properties: yin tonic, nutritive, demulcent, expectorant > > Indications: This herb is indicated for yin deficiency of the lung and > kidney when there are signs of ***false heat*** because of the yin > deficiency. It is used for lung abscesses and hot sputum that may contain > blood and is difficult to expectorate. It moistens the dryness of yin > deficiency and lubricates the intestines when there is constipation due to > dry intestines. " > > Clearly a misuse... but shows that people use this term that way. That is > all... > > For Steven (et al) - I Don't think anyone on the list has said that the 2 > terms are synonymous. > > 2) All the other information I posted has do with the limited view of False > heat (as the real 'false heat true cold'). I.e. That it must come from > Excess and that it is acute life-threatening. Nothing to do with vacuity > heat... These are 2 separate issues... I Hope that is clear. > > - > > > > > > If someone believes these two terms are synomyns, what is the > > alternative term for the " false heat " (jia re) that is very different > > from " deficicney heat " (xu re)? This was my initial concern and remains > > my concern. > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 It is ludicrous to continually have to define terms when having a professional discussion. >>>Todd I have no problem creating the definitions but you have to realize that when doing that you often see a small part of the term. We can create a new " professional " TCM lingo as bob calls it, but in doing so you WILL reduce many terms to standards that have not been so in CM history. It will be easier to teach no question. But for example, every time I used the term false the meaning was clear regardless of the choice of the word false. I know you hate connotative writing but it is another choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 Fortunately, very few of us will ever come across a case of " false heat " >>>Again that would be a question stile. One of the Dr is studied with (the same one bob demon did)diagnosed false heat in out-patients quite often. He did use this diagnosis in patient with unrooted yang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 On Nov 28, 2004, at 6:26 AM, wrote: > Furthermore, I have heard of an acupuncturist in Ohio who dips their > needles > in Essential oils... Talk about wild stuff... Has anyone else heard of > this? Nope, only dipping into homepathic substances. -al. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 I think Dan Bensky is working on a whole text just on the term wei qi and how it has been used differently by various CM authors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 false heat is not deficient heat >>>No question, but if one is writing the term connotatively all this discussion just goes away, since hopefully every one knows the difference between the clinical description we are talking about. This is basic TCM 101. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 This was my initial concern and remains my concern. >>>>>you cant worry if people do not know the most basic concepts, the information is clearly available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2004 Report Share Posted December 1, 2004 That would be a very interesting book indeed. On Nov 29, 2004, at 11:57 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > I think Dan Bensky is working on a whole text just on the term wei qi > and how it has been used differently by various CM authors. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Hi everyone I am French but I am now living in an English-speking country. All my books (and little knowledge) is in French. Do you know any website where I can find good ressources in English, mostly about " Pattern diagnosis " ? Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 A very good educational website for pattern discrimination, diagnosis, and information is: www.bluepoppypress.com Good Luck, Ray Rubio On Mar 6, 2005, at 11:41 PM, sifusikes wrote: > > > > Hi everyone > I am French but I am now living in an English-speking country. All my > books (and little knowledge) is in French. Do you know any website > where I can find good ressources in English, mostly about " Pattern > diagnosis " ? > Thank you > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other > academics, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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