Guest guest Posted February 10, 2002 Report Share Posted February 10, 2002 I imagine there might be a little discussion about this. The tryptophan event of chinese medicine. The big question is, ' was this a Chinese formulated and packaged product with an English label slapped on or were the herbs packaged here'? > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Consumers should stop taking two herbal > supplements promoting prostate and immune system health found to > contain prescription drug ingredients that need medical supervision > and may cause serious problems such as bleeding, U.S. health > officials said on Friday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2002 Report Share Posted February 10, 2002 I, for one, am very concerned about a 'tryptophan event' with Chinese herbs, reinforced by the Prop 65 flak and aristolochic acid incident in the last year. It is ironic that we were discussing the PC SPECS issue on this forum several months ago, on this very issue of drug contamination of commercial products. It is time for us to speak up for a clean, honest, practice of Chinese herbal medicine based on the traditional approach, by well-educated practitioners, not only commercial concerns. On Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 10:22 AM, wrote: > > I imagine there might be a little discussion about this. The tryptophan > event of chinese medicine. The big question is, ' was this a Chinese > formulated and packaged product with an English label slapped on or > were the herbs packaged here'? > > > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Consumers should stop taking two herbal > > supplements promoting prostate and immune system health found to > > contain prescription drug ingredients that need medical supervision > > and may cause serious problems such as bleeding, U.S. health > > officials said on Friday. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2002 Report Share Posted February 10, 2002 It is time for us to speak up for a clean, honest, practice of Chinese herbal medicine based on the traditional approach, by well-educated practitioners, not only commercial concerns. >>> Zev I am not sure what you mean here Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2002 Report Share Posted February 10, 2002 It may not have been deception, just sloppy manufacturing and quality control practices in China. On the other hand, how many practitioners have found contaminants (hairs, cigarette butts, etc.) in their raw herb orders? Jim Ramholz , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > It is time for us to speak up for a clean, honest, practice of Chinese herbal medicine based on the traditional approach, by well- educated practitioners, not only commercial concerns. > >>> > Zev I am not sure what you mean here > Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2002 Report Share Posted February 10, 2002 I don't know. . . .finding drugs in herbal products is not unheard of in China. Remember the 'black phoenix' pills for arthritis with steroids and amytryptilline in them? On Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 06:24 PM, jramholz wrote: > It may not have been deception, just sloppy manufacturing and > quality control practices in China. On the other hand, how many > practitioners have found contaminants (hairs, cigarette butts, etc.) > in their raw herb orders? > > Jim Ramholz > > > > , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > It is time for us to speak up for a clean, honest, practice of > Chinese herbal medicine based on the traditional approach, by well- > educated practitioners, not only commercial concerns. > > >>> > > Zev I am not sure what you mean here > > Alon > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2002 Report Share Posted February 10, 2002 Mostly that we need more and better public education programs and liasons to the media. On Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 02:11 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > It is time for us to speak up for a clean, honest, practice of Chinese > herbal medicine based on the traditional approach, by well-educated > practitioners, not only commercial concerns. > >>> > Zev I am not sure what you mean here > Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2002 Report Share Posted February 10, 2002 , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > It may not have been deception, just sloppy manufacturing and > quality control practices in China. I am not sure how sloppy manufacturing ends up with xanax in a product. This is just too much of a coincidence for products whose listed dosages are too low to have had any effect if the product was all herbal, as claimed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2002 Report Share Posted February 10, 2002 In the U.S., there have been a number of TV news shows about the transportation of foods in container trucks that have previously carried chemicals. As a consequence of their not being adequately cleaned out, foods have been contaminated. But, as I recall, all the herbal products that contained illegal pharmaceuticals worked far better than the herbal formulas alone. Illegality aside, perhaps there is a leason here about the efficacy of using smaller doses of meds with herbs. Jim Ramholz , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > > It may not have been deception, just sloppy manufacturing and > > quality control practices in China. > > I am not sure how sloppy manufacturing ends up with xanax in a product. > This is just too much of a coincidence for products whose listed > dosages are too low to have had any effect if the product was all > herbal, as claimed. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2002 Report Share Posted February 10, 2002 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: " . . . liasons to the media. " I agree. Marketing and mainstreaming is the key. According to JAMA a few years ago, Western meds kill more than 100,000 a year even when used correctly---and no one bats an eye. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2002 Report Share Posted February 10, 2002 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: I don't know. . . .finding drugs in herbal products is not unheard of in China. Remember the 'black phoenix' pills for arthritis with steroids and amytryptilline in them? In your example, I suspect the herbs were intentionally mixed with meds. And, after Black Phoenix Pills, Tung Xue (another Chinese herbal arthritis medicine) was found to contain about a half dozen different meds. No doubt, someone else may be able to recall other tampered herbal formulas. Back in the late 80s, you couldn't walk into a Chinese herb store in Chicago and be there for more than 15 minutes without someone--- often not Chinese---come in and buy Tung Xue for themselves and thier friends. The cleaned up herbal formula never seemed to work--- or sell---as well. Today in practice, I've modified the original herbal formula many times to approach the effectiveness of the " contaminated " version. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2002 Report Share Posted February 10, 2002 That seems like a strange argument in this case, Jim. Since there is a small history of mixing pharmaceuticals with herbal products in China, this doesn't seem to be an anomaly or error, at least on the production side. It may be true that the company was unaware of this, but routine product testing is a good idea. The products may have been more powerful, but they had more side effects. For example, 'extra-strength' yin qiao tablets were quite strong. . . some of my patients who had them from herb stores couldn't sleep well for several days from the drugs. I don't know if this makes the products 'more effective'. Powerful products are good targets for abuse, by practitioners and public, since they will do something even if the patient is incorrectly diagnosed. Usually that something is suppression of symptoms. The black phoenix pills, for example, will suppress arthritis symptoms, due to containing prednisone and amytryptilline. People have a right to know what products contain, and combinations of herbs and pharmaceuticals have to be carefully balanced. . . .which means, usually not in the same product. The interactions are a complete unknown. On Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 09:32 PM, jramholz wrote: > In the U.S., there have been a number of TV news shows about the > transportation of foods in container trucks that have previously > carried chemicals. As a consequence of their not being adequately > cleaned out, foods have been contaminated. > > But, as I recall, all the herbal products that contained illegal > pharmaceuticals worked far better than the herbal formulas alone. > Illegality aside, perhaps there is a leason here about the efficacy > of using smaller doses of meds with herbs. > > > Jim Ramholz > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2002 Report Share Posted February 11, 2002 It may not have been deception, just sloppy manufacturing and quality control practices in China. On the other hand, how many practitioners have found contaminants (hairs, cigarette butts, etc.) in their raw herb orders >>>Do herb manufactures in china also produce drugs? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2002 Report Share Posted February 11, 2002 Mostly that we need more and better public education programs and liasons to the media. >>>ZevAgreed we certainly do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2002 Report Share Posted February 11, 2002 I am not sure how sloppy manufacturing ends up with xanax in a product. This is just too much of a coincidence for products whose listed dosages are too low to have had any effect if the product was all herbal, as claimed >>>>And work so well.I think it is interesting that they pulled their arthritis pills which from what I have read worked incredibly well. It quite easy to hide drugs within an herbal formula and not be detected, unless one knows what to look for Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2002 Report Share Posted February 11, 2002 I agree. Marketing and mainstreaming is the key. According to JAMA a few years ago, Western meds kill more than 100,000 a year even when used correctly---and no one bats an eye. >>> Jim It has to be more than thet because NSAIDs alone kill 25000 people in US alone Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2002 Report Share Posted February 11, 2002 but routine product testing is a good idea >>>Zev, the problem is that unless you know what to look for it is very difficult to test Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2002 Report Share Posted February 11, 2002 Others would know first-hand, but from what has been described, in some situations one end of a factory produces drugs and the other herbal formulas. Things may get mixed up inadvertently when using the same equipment on both sides, or it may be intentional to get a marketing edge before the " contamination " is discovered and addressed. Does anyone know the law in Asian regarding if or how well these mixtures of drugs and herbs are tolerated in their markets? Jim Ramholz , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > It may not have been deception, just sloppy manufacturing and > quality control practices in China. On the other hand, how many > practitioners have found contaminants (hairs, cigarette butts, etc.) > in their raw herb orders > >>>Do herb manufactures in china also produce drugs? > Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 RE : sliding cups I attended a workshop on eliminating fat and cellulite with sliding cups attached to an air pump. They called it lymphatic drainage by dragging the fat to drainage points. You had to buy the machine for $10K US. I searched around and found many machines for a lot less, one as little as $300 US. I have not pursued it further but it sounds intriguing with just vacuum cups George Love, DOM florida On 3/6/05 3:20 PM, " Chinese Medicine " <Chinese Medicine > wrote: > > > There are 8 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Re: Diamond Acupuncture > " leapapworth " <leapapworth > 2. Re: Matthew Bauer's book > " heylaurag " <heylaurag > 3. conghua > " xmhhhh " <xmhhhh > 4. Re: Re: Matthew Bauer's book > " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy > 5. Re: Great data online by Joe Hing Kwok Chu > " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom > 6. Re: conghua > " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom > 7. Re: Re: Good cheap laser > " Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <dkaikobad > 8. Re: Re: Weekned Workshop Scottsdale AZ > " Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <dkaikobad > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 1 > Sun, 06 Mar 2005 05:54:48 -0000 > " leapapworth " <leapapworth > Re: Diamond Acupuncture > > >> Interestingly here in Australia, there has been some 'new' > treatments >> for cellulite on the thighs etc. and when I saw the pictures it > simply >> was sliding cups, but they were charging A$130 per session. >> I have used cupping on the upper arms of a woman who had large > amounts >> of cellulite there. Very effective. > > Hi > > I believe there was a warning in a post a few months ago regarding > using sliding cups over cellulite. Are you using the cups lightly, > just getting the skin pink? Or treating more aggressively? > > Cosmetic acupuncture gets some peoples hackles up, but improving > self esteem can really help, better it is done by a trained > acupuncturist who can work on the whole person than someone cashing > in on our expertise and calling it a new wonder cure. > > Cheers Lea > > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 2 > Sun, 06 Mar 2005 06:57:14 -0000 > " heylaurag " <heylaurag > Re: Matthew Bauer's book > > > Anything written by Matthew Bauer has to be very interesting and full > of depth. > > Congratulations on your book Matt! > > Laura > > > Chinese Medicine , " Attilio > DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Matt's new book is really great. I learned alot about the finer >> points of Chinese medicine theory. I strongly recommend adding it to >> your book collection. >> >> Attilio >> >> Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer " >> <acu.guy@g...> wrote: >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> >>> >>> I wanted to let you all know that my years-in-the-making book is >> now available. Titled " The Healing Power of Acupressure and >> Acupuncture: A Complete Guide to Timeless Traditions and Modern >> Practice " it was written first and foremost to help the general >> public better understand the value of acupuncture, acupressure and >> the rest of Oriental Medicine and to encourage them to seek OM >> services. My goal was to target people who were interested in OM but >> do not follow through because of their fear of the unknown. I also >> hope that OM practitioners and students will find this work of value >> in that I offer some detailed theories regarding the earliest roots >> of acupuncture and the theories that underlie Oriental medicine. >>> >>> >>> >>> My ideas about the original inspirations behind OM practices and >> theories are based on years of study of Taoist folk history, modern >> scholarly history, research into the evolution of the early >> civilizations, and, of course, years of practice of OM and Taoism. I >> make the case that ancient astronomy was the driving force behind >> the fundamental concepts in OM and early Chinese culture in general. >> While several chapters that covered this thesis in detail were >> edited out, being deemed by my publisher as too deep for a general >> public readership, the remaining material still conveys the main >> points I wished to get across. >>> >>> >>> >>> In the coming months, I will be trying to promote my work both to >> the general public and the OM profession. I will be speaking at the >> AOM Alliances' conference this May in Newport, Rhode Island and the >> Pacific Symposium in San Diego, California in November. I also have >> a website, www.matthewdbauer.com that people can contact me through >> if they wish to discuss aspects of my work or to arrange speaking >> engagements or possible articles for publication. >>> >>> >>> >>> Although I have worked in some OM organizations and in the >> insurance industry in an effort to contribute to the growth of OM, >> this book and the work I hope springs from it represents my main >> contribution to the field. I anticipate some of my theories will be >> controversial in that I offer unique ideas but I hope these will be >> taken in the spirit offered: in the humble hope that they may >> contribute to discussion and further understanding of our beloved >> healing art. >>> >>> >>> >>> I want to thank the list moderators for allowing me the >> opportunity to make this announcement and all of you for taking the >> time to read it. Sincerely - Matthew Bauer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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