Guest guest Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 I used to work with a group of chiros who were signed up with Singer. As the acupuncturist on staff, I was able to listen in on a few of the acupuncture telephone talks. My impression of the Singer method is that ultimately it is a good thing to be able to " sell " ourselves; another way to put that is feeling confident about our medicine and being able to communicate it to our patients. I see nothing inherently *wrong* with this. However, I disagree with the coercion that appears to take place - hand me your money and I'll make you " well " is much too simplistic and manipulative, in my opinion. I believe it is also unethical. As with a lot of marketing " opportunities " that are out there, I think that Singer has tapped into a hungry pool of practitioners looking for a " quick fix " to their practice-building. It is incredibly expensive, and unless you want to purchase all of their products and attend all of their talks, I found no real way to take bits and pieces and apply it to my practice. I'm skeptical that this method works in the long-run. I'm curious to hear other people's stories. Maybe someone can *honestly* say s/he has been successful (after paying the thousands out to Singer). Holly Holly N. Boland, MS, LAc 1450 Rhode Island Street San Francisco, CA 94107 T: 415.282.1766 F: 415.282.1185 *Your Health is Your Choice* Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > It is sales if you have patients sign up for pre-paid services (some groups > endorse this) and also the practice of insurance (illegal unless licensed > for insurance). > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > " " <alonmarcus@w...> > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >Re: Acupuncture Licensing Regulation > >Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:30:24 -0500 > > > >Is it sales when you approach someone or give talks or use marketing to > >increase your patient visits? > > >>>Its what he teaches you to say which i thing borders on the unethical. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 However, I disagree with the coercion that appears to take place - hand me your money and I'll make you " well " is much too simplistic and manipulative, in my opinion. I believe it is also unethical. >>>>>>Not only that, he really makes practitioners look at patients as money period. Since i share the same receptionist with my partner and she goes to his meetings, she told me that in the last seminar he told the practitioners to not waste their time with patients that are not willing to prepay for a series of treatments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 I listened to the Singer spiel /phone conference and was mostly unimpressed. The ethical values expressed are a bit different from mine. BUT He did remind me that the once a week appointment model is not the one traditional to our art, and this was of use to me. Doc --- Traditionally in every tribal society, medicine sprang from and was the property of the tribe and the people as a whole. In the middle ages, the church based medical establishment deliberately and methodically substituted a patriarchal, hierarchical medical paradigm. It is my goal with the projects i've been helping to set up around the world to begin to return medicine to the hands of the people from which it sprang. - Doc Rosen I am only one; but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; I will not refuse to do the something I can do. - Helen Keller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 I am trying to craft a response to these rather controversial comments. I went to an acpuncture school where the norm was to see one patient an hour. Also there was very little focus on making money and a lot of students came out of there is substantial debt to begin with. So. ah la, a lot of people working part time and working another job to live or with rich husbands or wives as Pete says. Some acpuncturists considered leaving the field altogether. One of my colleagues was one of these. She and some other students from my school joined Singer. They went from poverty to prosperity. They all take Singer's comments with a grain of salt. They take what they feel is ethical and leave out the rest. Comments I hear from them are that Singer doesn't quite get how acupuncturists work. So they take what they find useful from him. They are all ethical, caring acupuncturists. I joined them last September at my friend's invitation. My story is long and varied so to shorten it, I implemnted some techniques that were quite helpful. I think they gave me a jump start to get my practice going. It was very expensive. It gets cheaper every year as a real incentive to stay with them. I will not do that for reasons I will explain shortly. I have made more income this month than I have since I started practicing and will make much more this year, approaching " a living. " I don't use the Singer speil but I did get motivated to give talks at the local hospital and write articles more specific to people's conerns, e.g. arthritis. I think a good marketing company is sorely needed in our profession. Singer prices are outrageous and if anything borders on the unethical, that is it. I don't know about the other companies mentioned. I know Honora Wolfe has a good reputation but don't know of the consistency and availablity of workshops. I had a background in Business and Ecnomics before I went to acupuncture school. I knew a lot about business but somehow when you mix healing and business, this is a tough line to walk I think I had a lot of personal reasons, e.g. family time, that were conflicting with my jump starting things. I have done that and managed to still have a good amount of family time. So I think there are sometimes deeper issues for why we don't go full speed ahead. I liked Lynn Grodski's book on Building Your Ideal Private Practice. She also does coaching. She is a phycotherapist that appeals to acupuncturists also. Well, the Singer thing is too much for me. I believe my metal/fire thing is taking over. I cannot separate the good from the bad, pure from the impure, find the gem in it and throw out the rest. Obviously, some of my colleagues can. Anne hollylac wrote: > > I used to work with a group of chiros who were signed up with > Singer. As the acupuncturist on staff, I was able to listen in on a > few of the acupuncture telephone talks. My impression of the Singer > method is that ultimately it is a good thing to be able to " sell " > ourselves; another way to put that is feeling confident about our > medicine and being able to communicate it to our patients. I see > nothing inherently *wrong* with this. However, I disagree with the > coercion that appears to take place - hand me your money and I'll > make you " well " is much too simplistic and manipulative, in my > opinion. I believe it is also unethical. > > As with a lot of marketing " opportunities " that are out there, I > think that Singer has tapped into a hungry pool of practitioners > looking for a " quick fix " to their practice-building. It is > incredibly expensive, and unless you want to purchase all of their > products and attend all of their talks, I found no real way to take > bits and pieces and apply it to my practice. I'm skeptical that this > method works in the long-run. > > I'm curious to hear other people's stories. Maybe someone can > *honestly* say s/he has been successful (after paying the thousands > out to Singer). > > Holly > > > Holly N. Boland, MS, LAc > 1450 Rhode Island Street > San Francisco, CA 94107 > T: 415.282.1766 > F: 415.282.1185 > *Your Health is Your Choice* > > Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " > <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > It is sales if you have patients sign up for pre-paid services > (some groups > > endorse this) and also the practice of insurance (illegal unless > licensed > > for insurance). > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > " " <alonmarcus@w...> > > >Chinese Medicine > > ><Chinese Medicine > > > >Re: Acupuncture Licensing Regulation > > >Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:30:24 -0500 > > > > > >Is it sales when you approach someone or give talks or use > marketing to > > >increase your patient visits? > > > >>>Its what he teaches you to say which i thing borders on the > unethical. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 In a message dated 4/26/2005 9:08:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, blazing.valley writes: > > I'm curious to hear other people's stories. Maybe someone can > *honestly* say s/he has been successful (after paying the thousands > out to Singer). > > Holly Dear Holly: I was with Singer for a few years. I didn't find anything unethical about their practices at all. That isn't to say that I wasn't very uncomfortable at times, but that is the nature of change, after all. I kept careful records and every dime I spent with them returned 10:1 at least. If any one would mention specifics about his program and would like to engage in an honest dialog, I would be happy to do so on this list. From what I have read in three years of looking at posts, acupuncturists indeed have lots to learn about getting their message out to people. And they have to do it in a way that people understand (that is, average middle class, media inundated westerners) and not by using the esoteric and spiritual language that may have brought the practitioner to the profession. Sorry for the strong statement, don;t wish to insult anyone. But if a few of you would give that program a try for a year, your practice and your future would be vastly improved. Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Doc wrote: > I listened to the Singer spiel /phone conference and was mostly > unimpressed. The ethical values expressed are a bit different from > mine. BUT He did remind me that the once a week appointment model is > not the one traditional to our art, and this was of use to me. Hi Doc! This is an important thing to remember! One of my teachers said that once a week takes a *long* time to do any good. In my opinion, a course of treatment is 10 treatments, if you do a treatment once a week that is a 10 week course. 10 weeks is an eternity in the electronic age! People want to spread it out because they can't pay it all at once. I try to get them to go for 10 treatments right away by not charging very much, but it doesn't really help. You'd think they would appreciate it, but instead they, I don't know. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Anne Crowley wrote: > I am trying to craft a response to these rather controversial > comments. > > I went to an acpuncture school where the norm was to see one patient > an hour. Also there was very little focus on making money and a lot > of students came out of there is substantial debt to begin with. So. > ah la, a lot of people working part time and working another job to > live or with rich husbands or wives as Pete says. Some acpuncturists > considered leaving the field altogether. Hi Anne! The statistic posted to the list a while ago was 95% are not in full time practice 5 years out of school. Seems like we should be doing far better than that. If it is going to be this bad the government should pull the plug on the student loans for Acupuncture schools! OR, they should get on with the Medicare covering acupuncture program if they want to keep the student loan program. I'm not going to do the rich wife thing, though. I want a *pretty* one <g> or I won't bother. Bad Pete . . . Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Pete, The 5% still in practice after 5 years is a figure for Australian Acupuncturists from a few years ago. The Australian Acupuncture and Association Ltd (professional association organisation) did the research and in response attempted to create a mentoring program. I don't know how successful they were in this program in changing the 5% after five years. In Australia the Chiros have been specular in business success. I think they are 'sales' trained whilst at college and also their professional associations have marketed Chiros as legitimate. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Pete Theisen Wednesday, 27 April 2005 1:42 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Singer Enterprises Anne Crowley wrote: > I am trying to craft a response to these rather controversial > comments. > > I went to an acpuncture school where the norm was to see one patient > an hour. Also there was very little focus on making money and a lot > of students came out of there is substantial debt to begin with. So. > ah la, a lot of people working part time and working another job to > live or with rich husbands or wives as Pete says. Some acpuncturists > considered leaving the field altogether. Hi Anne! The statistic posted to the list a while ago was 95% are not in full time practice 5 years out of school. Seems like we should be doing far better than that. If it is going to be this bad the government should pull the plug on the student loans for Acupuncture schools! OR, they should get on with the Medicare covering acupuncture program if they want to keep the student loan program. I'm not going to do the rich wife thing, though. I want a *pretty* one <g> or I won't bother. Bad Pete . . . Regards, Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Hola Pete, I explain thoroughly the number of treatments and the difference between results of once a week vs every day for x number of visits. I then work out a payment plan if needed. On the front desk of the clinic is our mission statement which -among other things- clearly states that our goal is to help as many folks as we can. This means that we will never turn someone away for lack of ability to pay. If it means taking post dated checks or taking a $10 cash payment so be it. Doc BTW When i was an apprentice Sifu (Master) said for some conditions " to treat this it takes ten treatments done daily or 100 treatments done once a week " --- Pete Theisen <petet wrote: Doc wrote: > I listened to the Singer spiel /phone conference and was mostly > unimpressed. The ethical values expressed are a bit different from > mine. BUT He did remind me that the once a week appointment model is > not the one traditional to our art, and this was of use to me. Hi Doc! This is an important thing to remember! One of my teachers said that once a week takes a *long* time to do any good. In my opinion, a course of treatment is 10 treatments, if you do a treatment once a week that is a 10 week course. 10 weeks is an eternity in the electronic age! People want to spread it out because they can't pay it all at once. I try to get them to go for 10 treatments right away by not charging very much, but it doesn't really help. You'd think they would appreciate it, but instead they, I don't know. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 DrGRPorter wrote: <snip> > I was with Singer for a few years. I didn't find anything unethical about > their practices at all. That isn't to say that I wasn't very uncomfortable at > times, but that is the nature of change, after all. > > I kept careful records and every dime I spent with them returned 10:1 at Hi Dr. Guy! But was it Singer, or just the few years? Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Doc wrote: <snip> > BTW When i was an apprentice Sifu (Master) said for some conditions > " to treat this it takes ten treatments done daily or 100 treatments > done once a week " Hi Doc! Outstanding quote, thanks for that. I haven't tried cutting the rate to $10 yet, but maybe. My colleagues already don't like me charging $25 but they shouldn't mind, I don't get that many patients anyway, can't possibly be taking anything from them. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Charging $25 a treatment is crazy I think. I'd be willing to bet that if you lowered your fees to $10 you won't pick up much more busienss. I don't think I would go to a practitioner that charged so little, it just speaks volumes about them. Acupuncture does not follow the rule of supply and demand and so reducing fees will not increase demand. You need to educate patients about the value of your services not the price. Give them $100 in value and charge them only $70. One of the most effective adds I have seen for an acupuncturist here in Arizona showed three of four testimonials from patients about the value of the service. Nowhere in the add did it mention how much he charged. I happen to know he charges $100 a treatment. He has a busy practice because he focuses on value instead of price. People will way overextend themselvs to buy a car or a house because they precieve those things have value. Acupuncture and Chinese medicine can provide a huge value to a persons health, and if they don't value their health I wouldn't want them as a patient in the first place. Health is much more important than a car or a house. Focus on, cultivate and sell value and you will be able to charge reasonable fees. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Pete Theisen Wednesday, April 27, 2005 2:34 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Singer Enterprises Doc wrote: <snip> > BTW When i was an apprentice Sifu (Master) said for some conditions > " to treat this it takes ten treatments done daily or 100 treatments > done once a week " Hi Doc! Outstanding quote, thanks for that. I haven't tried cutting the rate to $10 yet, but maybe. My colleagues already don't like me charging $25 but they shouldn't mind, I don't get that many patients anyway, can't possibly be taking anything from them. Regards, Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Dear Mike: You're exactly right about the pre paid aspect. One can, however, determine what a reasonable course of treatment would be, and then determine what the patient's co-pay or total would be. Ask for that amount. It's clear that commitment on the part of both parties is essential, and non-committed patients don't do as well as enthusiastic ones, of course. What was great about Singer was that he encouraged us to figure out what we would do if money were no object. What was the highest and best level of care we could offer someone? What would that entail? Then that was what we proposed to do for someone. Not more than was needed, not enough to just lessen the symptoms... real healing, to the best of our ability. On the other hand, you will go broke giving away care, pandering to price shoppers, and statistics from malpractice insurance carriers show that people to whom you give free or vastly reduced price services are actually more likely to sue you. One great thing about Singer was that he would NOT let you just sit at your desk and hope. He really encouraged you personally to go out and spread the word. If only 6% of people would even think of getting acupuncture, and if acupuncturists think that 50% of people could be helped better by acupuncture than by western med (that's a no-brainer!) then the docs actually need to be out in the community and need to be vocal about what they can do for people. Is it conceivable that if you ignore the person at the park who you overhear complaining of headaches, for the sake of your own comfort, and she goes to a western doc and gets a prescription which kills or injures her, (a significant possibility) that your comfort outweighed your commitment to care? Just a thought. Not necessary to be an evangelist, but it is definitely necessary to go well outside of your typical comfort level to communicate to people about what you do. The pre pay thing was great while it lasted. Singer does a good job of training your staff to handle the money issues, esp that insurance-welfare mentality that many people have about healthcare. After all, this week your patient bought groceries and they drove to your clinic in a car. Neither were paid for by insurance. One was a necessity, the other a desire. They need to confront (in a good way) where they stand on their health. Sorry for the rant. I know it sounds capitalistic (and it is) but by and large acupuncturists need to sway far more in that direction if they want to survive as a profession. Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 There has got to be more than just Singer. I know of a DC who was using this system and he failed miserably and this has led to his divorce as well. The reps told him to fire many of his staff instead of dealing with bad business decisions Singer supported. He was out of his league and they never told him you do not spend $100K if you do not have it. Reality and understanding of where you are in the process is very important. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Pete Theisen <petet >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: Singer Enterprises >Wed, 27 Apr 2005 05:28:13 -0400 > >DrGRPorter wrote: > ><snip> > > > I was with Singer for a few years. I didn't find anything unethical >about > > their practices at all. That isn't to say that I wasn't very >uncomfortable at > > times, but that is the nature of change, after all. > > > > I kept careful records and every dime I spent with them returned 10:1 at > >Hi Dr. Guy! > >But was it Singer, or just the few years? > >Regards, > >Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Guy, I agree with you that many modern concepts of business and public education are necessary for our success. I do find some legal issues with prepaid medical services, which Singer supports. The NAIC (national association of insurance commissioners), regulate insurance services in each and every state, performed a national study to look into the legality of prepaid medical services. Their conclusion was that this was the practice of insurance and therefore illegal unless one also has a license to practice insurance. The report seemed to target the chiropractors but the message is the same for us as well. Acupuncturetoday has published an excellent past article by an attorney that discusses this issue and what it means for us. Information is power yet we do not want to set a bad example nor a false sense of security. Let's avoid creating possible bad press. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >DrGRPorter >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: Singer Enterprises >Wed, 27 Apr 2005 03:03:32 EDT > > >In a message dated 4/26/2005 9:08:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >blazing.valley writes: > > > > > I'm curious to hear other people's stories. Maybe someone can > > *honestly* say s/he has been successful (after paying the thousands > > out to Singer). > > > > Holly > > > >Dear Holly: > >I was with Singer for a few years. I didn't find anything unethical about >their practices at all. That isn't to say that I wasn't very uncomfortable >at >times, but that is the nature of change, after all. > >I kept careful records and every dime I spent with them returned 10:1 at >least. > >If any one would mention specifics about his program and would like to >engage in an honest dialog, I would be happy to do so on this list. From >what I >have read in three years of looking at posts, acupuncturists indeed have >lots to > learn about getting their message out to people. And they have to do it >in a >way that people understand (that is, average middle class, media inundated >westerners) and not by using the esoteric and spiritual language that may >have > brought the practitioner to the profession. > >Sorry for the strong statement, don;t wish to insult anyone. But if a few >of >you would give that program a try for a year, your practice and your future >would be vastly improved. > >Guy Porter > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Anne, I do not think the issue of one patient per hour is a problem. I put some numbers together for this type of practice and most of us would be OK with this. $60.00 per patient/per hour 5 patients per day 20 days per month 12 months in the year Gross income would be $72,000.00 w/o any herbs or supplements just acupuncture. This is a nice income. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Anne Crowley <blazing.valley >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: Singer Enterprises >Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:07:58 -0400 > >I am trying to craft a response to these rather controversial comments. > >I went to an acpuncture school where the norm was to see one patient an >hour. Also there was very little focus on making money and a lot of >students came out of there is substantial debt to begin with. So. ah >la, a lot of people working part time and working another job to live or >with rich husbands or wives as Pete says. Some acpuncturists considered >leaving the field altogether. > >One of my colleagues was one of these. She and some other students from >my school joined Singer. They went from poverty to prosperity. They >all take Singer's comments with a grain of salt. They take what they >feel is ethical and leave out the rest. Comments I hear from them are >that Singer doesn't quite get how acupuncturists work. So they take >what they find useful from him. They are all ethical, caring >acupuncturists. > >I joined them last September at my friend's invitation. My story is >long and varied so to shorten it, I implemnted some techniques that were >quite helpful. I think they gave me a jump start to get my practice >going. It was very expensive. It gets cheaper every year as a real >incentive to stay with them. I will not do that for reasons I will >explain shortly. I have made more income this month than I have since I >started practicing and will make much more this year, approaching " a >living. " I don't use the Singer speil but I did get motivated to give >talks at the local hospital and write articles more specific to people's >conerns, e.g. arthritis. > >I think a good marketing company is sorely needed in our profession. >Singer prices are outrageous and if anything borders on the unethical, >that is it. I don't know about the other companies mentioned. I know >Honora Wolfe has a good reputation but don't know of the consistency and >availablity of workshops. > >I had a background in Business and Ecnomics before I went to acupuncture >school. I knew a lot about business but somehow when you mix healing >and business, this is a tough line to walk I think I had a lot of >personal reasons, e.g. family time, that were conflicting with my jump >starting things. I have done that and managed to still have a good >amount of family time. So I think there are sometimes deeper issues for >why we don't go full speed ahead. I liked Lynn Grodski's book on >Building Your Ideal Private Practice. She also does coaching. She is a >phycotherapist that appeals to acupuncturists also. > >Well, the Singer thing is too much for me. I believe my metal/fire >thing is taking over. I cannot separate the good from the bad, pure >from the impure, find the gem in it and throw out the rest. Obviously, >some of my colleagues can. > >Anne > >hollylac wrote: > > > > > I used to work with a group of chiros who were signed up with > > Singer. As the acupuncturist on staff, I was able to listen in on a > > few of the acupuncture telephone talks. My impression of the Singer > > method is that ultimately it is a good thing to be able to " sell " > > ourselves; another way to put that is feeling confident about our > > medicine and being able to communicate it to our patients. I see > > nothing inherently *wrong* with this. However, I disagree with the > > coercion that appears to take place - hand me your money and I'll > > make you " well " is much too simplistic and manipulative, in my > > opinion. I believe it is also unethical. > > > > As with a lot of marketing " opportunities " that are out there, I > > think that Singer has tapped into a hungry pool of practitioners > > looking for a " quick fix " to their practice-building. It is > > incredibly expensive, and unless you want to purchase all of their > > products and attend all of their talks, I found no real way to take > > bits and pieces and apply it to my practice. I'm skeptical that this > > method works in the long-run. > > > > I'm curious to hear other people's stories. Maybe someone can > > *honestly* say s/he has been successful (after paying the thousands > > out to Singer). > > > > Holly > > > > > > Holly N. Boland, MS, LAc > > 1450 Rhode Island Street > > San Francisco, CA 94107 > > T: 415.282.1766 > > F: 415.282.1185 > > *Your Health is Your Choice* > > > > Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " > > <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > > It is sales if you have patients sign up for pre-paid services > > (some groups > > > endorse this) and also the practice of insurance (illegal unless > > licensed > > > for insurance). > > > > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > > " " <alonmarcus@w...> > > > >Chinese Medicine > > > ><Chinese Medicine > > > > >Re: Acupuncture Licensing Regulation > > > >Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:30:24 -0500 > > > > > > > >Is it sales when you approach someone or give talks or use > > marketing to > > > >increase your patient visits? > > > > >>>Its what he teaches you to say which i thing borders on the > > unethical. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Guy, I want to clarify a point about your response to others. Payment is always for services delivered at the time of care. This includes insurance copays as well. It has amazed me that so many of us do not get this important concept of medicine. Other than that, it sounds like some good ideas were heard. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >DrGRPorter >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: Singer Enterprises >Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:46:33 EDT > >Dear Mike: > >You're exactly right about the pre paid aspect. One can, however, >determine >what a reasonable course of treatment would be, and then determine what >the >patient's co-pay or total would be. Ask for that amount. > >It's clear that commitment on the part of both parties is essential, and >non-committed patients don't do as well as enthusiastic ones, of course. > >What was great about Singer was that he encouraged us to figure out what we >would do if money were no object. What was the highest and best level of >care >we could offer someone? What would that entail? Then that was what we >proposed to do for someone. Not more than was needed, not enough to just >lessen the >symptoms... real healing, to the best of our ability. > >On the other hand, you will go broke giving away care, pandering to price >shoppers, and statistics from malpractice insurance carriers show that >people >to whom you give free or vastly reduced price services are actually more >likely to sue you. > >One great thing about Singer was that he would NOT let you just sit at your >desk and hope. He really encouraged you personally to go out and spread the >word. If only 6% of people would even think of getting acupuncture, and if >acupuncturists think that 50% of people could be helped better by >acupuncture >than by western med (that's a no-brainer!) then the docs actually need to >be out > in the community and need to be vocal about what they can do for people. > >Is it conceivable that if you ignore the person at the park who you >overhear >complaining of headaches, for the sake of your own comfort, and she goes >to >a western doc and gets a prescription which kills or injures her, (a >significant possibility) that your comfort outweighed your commitment to >care? Just >a thought. Not necessary to be an evangelist, but it is definitely >necessary >to go well outside of your typical comfort level to communicate to people >about what you do. > >The pre pay thing was great while it lasted. Singer does a good job of >training your staff to handle the money issues, esp that insurance-welfare >mentality that many people have about healthcare. After all, this week your > patient >bought groceries and they drove to your clinic in a car. Neither were paid >for by insurance. One was a necessity, the other a desire. They need to >confront (in a good way) where they stand on their health. > >Sorry for the rant. I know it sounds capitalistic (and it is) but by and >large acupuncturists need to sway far more in that direction if they want >to >survive as a profession. > >Guy Porter > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Thanks for the numbers Mike. I work 3 days a week. Charge $75/ treatment and now see one patient an hour. I want to move to somewhere close to two and hour. I also take weeks off during the year - still raising 2 children. The other problem I run into with one an hour and even with your numbers is when people don't show - no money. Either a new patients won't show (doesn't happen too often, but that's $120 - one hour and half blocked off for one person) or regular patients will have something come up. A million things can come up in a person's life and they all seem like things the patient can't control, however they result in lost income for me. This is a problem I am still wrestling with. I think if I saw two and hour the pain would be eased around this. People, no matter who they are, don't like to pay for services they don't receive. They will do it, but then you may not see them again. Anne mike Bowser wrote: > Anne, > I do not think the issue of one patient per hour is a problem. I put > some > numbers together for this type of practice and most of us would be OK > with > this. > > $60.00 per patient/per hour > 5 patients per day > 20 days per month > 12 months in the year > > Gross income would be $72,000.00 w/o any herbs or supplements just > acupuncture. This is a nice income. > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > >Anne Crowley <blazing.valley > >Chinese Medicine > >Chinese Medicine > >Re: Re: Singer Enterprises > >Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:07:58 -0400 > > > >I am trying to craft a response to these rather controversial comments. > > > >I went to an acpuncture school where the norm was to see one patient an > >hour. Also there was very little focus on making money and a lot of > >students came out of there is substantial debt to begin with. So. ah > >la, a lot of people working part time and working another job to live or > >with rich husbands or wives as Pete says. Some acpuncturists considered > >leaving the field altogether. > > > >One of my colleagues was one of these. She and some other students from > >my school joined Singer. They went from poverty to prosperity. They > >all take Singer's comments with a grain of salt. They take what they > >feel is ethical and leave out the rest. Comments I hear from them are > >that Singer doesn't quite get how acupuncturists work. So they take > >what they find useful from him. They are all ethical, caring > >acupuncturists. > > > >I joined them last September at my friend's invitation. My story is > >long and varied so to shorten it, I implemnted some techniques that were > >quite helpful. I think they gave me a jump start to get my practice > >going. It was very expensive. It gets cheaper every year as a real > >incentive to stay with them. I will not do that for reasons I will > >explain shortly. I have made more income this month than I have since I > >started practicing and will make much more this year, approaching " a > >living. " I don't use the Singer speil but I did get motivated to give > >talks at the local hospital and write articles more specific to people's > >conerns, e.g. arthritis. > > > >I think a good marketing company is sorely needed in our profession. > >Singer prices are outrageous and if anything borders on the unethical, > >that is it. I don't know about the other companies mentioned. I know > >Honora Wolfe has a good reputation but don't know of the consistency and > >availablity of workshops. > > > >I had a background in Business and Ecnomics before I went to acupuncture > >school. I knew a lot about business but somehow when you mix healing > >and business, this is a tough line to walk I think I had a lot of > >personal reasons, e.g. family time, that were conflicting with my jump > >starting things. I have done that and managed to still have a good > >amount of family time. So I think there are sometimes deeper issues for > >why we don't go full speed ahead. I liked Lynn Grodski's book on > >Building Your Ideal Private Practice. She also does coaching. She is a > >phycotherapist that appeals to acupuncturists also. > > > >Well, the Singer thing is too much for me. I believe my metal/fire > >thing is taking over. I cannot separate the good from the bad, pure > >from the impure, find the gem in it and throw out the rest. Obviously, > >some of my colleagues can. > > > >Anne > > > >hollylac wrote: > > > > > > > > I used to work with a group of chiros who were signed up with > > > Singer. As the acupuncturist on staff, I was able to listen in on a > > > few of the acupuncture telephone talks. My impression of the Singer > > > method is that ultimately it is a good thing to be able to " sell " > > > ourselves; another way to put that is feeling confident about our > > > medicine and being able to communicate it to our patients. I see > > > nothing inherently *wrong* with this. However, I disagree with the > > > coercion that appears to take place - hand me your money and I'll > > > make you " well " is much too simplistic and manipulative, in my > > > opinion. I believe it is also unethical. > > > > > > As with a lot of marketing " opportunities " that are out there, I > > > think that Singer has tapped into a hungry pool of practitioners > > > looking for a " quick fix " to their practice-building. It is > > > incredibly expensive, and unless you want to purchase all of their > > > products and attend all of their talks, I found no real way to take > > > bits and pieces and apply it to my practice. I'm skeptical that this > > > method works in the long-run. > > > > > > I'm curious to hear other people's stories. Maybe someone can > > > *honestly* say s/he has been successful (after paying the thousands > > > out to Singer). > > > > > > Holly > > > > > > > > > Holly N. Boland, MS, LAc > > > 1450 Rhode Island Street > > > San Francisco, CA 94107 > > > T: 415.282.1766 > > > F: 415.282.1185 > > > *Your Health is Your Choice* > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " > > > <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > > > It is sales if you have patients sign up for pre-paid services > > > (some groups > > > > endorse this) and also the practice of insurance (illegal unless > > > licensed > > > > for insurance). > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " " <alonmarcus@w...> > > > > >Chinese Medicine > > > > ><Chinese Medicine > > > > > >Re: Acupuncture Licensing Regulation > > > > >Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:30:24 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >Is it sales when you approach someone or give talks or use > > > marketing to > > > > >increase your patient visits? > > > > > >>>Its what he teaches you to say which i thing borders on the > > > unethical. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 DrGRPorter wrote: <snip> > What was the highest and best level of care we could offer someone? > What would that entail? Then that was what we proposed to do for > someone. Not more than was needed, not enough to just lessen the > symptoms... real healing, to the best of our ability. > > On the other hand, you will go broke giving away care, pandering to > price shoppers, and statistics from malpractice insurance carriers > show that people to whom you give free or vastly reduced price > services are actually more likely to sue you. Hi Dr. Porter! I have stopped advertising price directly other than to say that the first visit is a no cost orientation. I set my *regular* rate to be about what the co-pay *would* be if the insurance/Medicare covered it. If they have insurance I give them a superbill and let them submit it to their insurance company. If they were to ask me to help them with the form I would try to do that. I tell people how I arrived at the rate (by asking how much deductibles are) and that my costs are such that I can profit if I have enough patients. My office is quite small, but efficiently laid out. I don't tell them this, but I'm not getting enough patients. The ones who do come are being helped, but there are only four of them. I need about 20 or 30 ongoing cases, or 100+ transients, to do decently. I am not the only one in this situation, everyone I talk to about it around here says they don't have enough patients. I think we have oversupplied the *cash* market. If this is in fact the case the only way for us to get over this problem is to get Medicare (and therefore the *rest* of the insurance companies) to cover our services. But a *lot* of acupuncturists do not contact their US Representative again and again about this as we have to do. I think a *lot* of acupuncturists are not even registered to vote. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 Ick!! Can we move on from 'Pete's Problems'? It's become a drag to listen to the whining and thinly veiled slandering of groups of people. --roseanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 Anne Crowley wrote: <snip> > when people don't show - no money. Either a new patients won't show > (doesn't happen too often, but that's $120 - one hour and half > blocked off for one person) or regular patients will have something > come up. A million things can come up in a person's life and they > all seem like things the patient can't control, however they result > in lost income for me. This is a problem I am still wrestling with. > I think if I saw two and hour the pain would be eased around this. > People, no matter who they are, don't like to pay for services they > don't receive. They will do it, but then you may not see them again. > Hi Anne! I have one patient who pays me if he cancels at the last minute. I don't demand it, he just does it. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 Anne, An interesting e-mail for me as, after 23 years, I charge the same for new patients $125) and treatment (75). I do have flexibility, and like Doc/Ron Rosen, I'll treat for less if necessary. I do see two patients an hour, and gave up charging for missed appointments unless the patient volunteers. As you point out, I'd rather see the patient and not lose them, but if it becomes routine behavior, it is not worth it anyway. I have a cash-only practice, my wife does all the book-keeping and finances, and I have a home office. Low overhead, maximum return on services. Patients seem to like it, just have to watch the parking with the neighbors. On Apr 27, 2005, at 2:25 PM, Anne Crowley wrote: > Thanks for the numbers Mike. I work 3 days a week. Charge $75/ > treatment and now see one patient an hour. I want to move to somewhere > close to two and hour. I also take weeks off during the year - still > raising 2 children. The other problem I run into with one an hour and > even with your numbers is when people don't show - no money. Either a > new patients won't show (doesn't happen too often, but that's $120 - > one > hour and half blocked off for one person) or regular patients will have > something come up. A million things can come up in a person's life and > they all seem like things the patient can't control, however they > result > in lost income for me. This is a problem I am still wrestling with. I > think if I saw two and hour the pain would be eased around this. > People, no matter who they are, don't like to pay for services they > don't receive. They will do it, but then you may not see them again. > > Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 Thanks Zev, I have a home office too. Had a complaint from a neighbor and managed to get a temporary repreive (no one has bothered me for 2 years.) I live on a two acre lot but somehow people don't always like other's prosperity it seems. Anyway, I will go to the county and resolve this to get a permanent permit or find out the status. I recently thought of buying a condo or renting in town. Both are quite expensive. My home office with trees surrounding it, is starting to look more attractive. Incidently, just as I was starting my practice 3 1/2 years ago, I rented and remodeled an office in our town. Two weeks later an F5 tornado tore apart the town (LaPlata, MD). My office was damaged, but standing. Others around me were a pile of bricks or wood. So a huge wave of metal hit LaPlata and me. I've had some space challenges but overall my office is beautiful now. I think there are practice challenges no matter where we are. Just stay steadfast about what you are doing and why you are doing it. I think we can succeed in any area. If we are in an area with lot of other acupuncturists, e.g. Santa Fe or Columbia MD, (where I went to school), we may have to be more creative and do more marketing, talks, etc. It will all work out if we stay with our life's work. wrote: > Anne, > An interesting e-mail for me as, after 23 years, I charge the same > for new patients $125) and treatment (75). I do have flexibility, and > like Doc/Ron Rosen, I'll treat for less if necessary. I do see two > patients an hour, and gave up charging for missed appointments unless > the patient volunteers. As you point out, I'd rather see the patient > and not lose them, but if it becomes routine behavior, it is not worth > it anyway. > I have a cash-only practice, my wife does all the book-keeping and > finances, and I have a home office. Low overhead, maximum return on > services. Patients seem to like it, just have to watch the parking > with the neighbors. > > > On Apr 27, 2005, at 2:25 PM, Anne Crowley wrote: > > > Thanks for the numbers Mike. I work 3 days a week. Charge $75/ > > treatment and now see one patient an hour. I want to move to somewhere > > close to two and hour. I also take weeks off during the year - still > > raising 2 children. The other problem I run into with one an hour and > > even with your numbers is when people don't show - no money. Either a > > new patients won't show (doesn't happen too often, but that's $120 - > > one > > hour and half blocked off for one person) or regular patients will have > > something come up. A million things can come up in a person's life and > > they all seem like things the patient can't control, however they > > result > > in lost income for me. This is a problem I am still wrestling with. I > > think if I saw two and hour the pain would be eased around this. > > People, no matter who they are, don't like to pay for services they > > don't receive. They will do it, but then you may not see them again. > > > > Anne > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other > academics, > > > > ------ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 wrote: > Anne, An interesting e-mail for me as, after 23 years, I charge the > same for new patients $125) and treatment (75). I do have > flexibility, and like Doc/Ron Rosen, I'll treat for less if > necessary. I do see two patients an hour, and gave up charging for > missed appointments unless the patient volunteers. As you point out, > I'd rather see the patient and not lose them, but if it becomes > routine behavior, it is not worth it anyway. I have a cash-only > practice, my wife does all the book-keeping and finances, and I have > a home office. Low overhead, maximum return on services. Patients > seem to like it, just have to watch the parking with the neighbors. Hi Z'ev! If you have to watch the parking with the neighbors you are in the wrong zoning and you are breaking the law. I'm not going to turn you in, but you see my point - *you*, and others who have intimated as much, have to break the law to succeed in acupuncture! Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 Anne Crowley wrote: > Thanks Zev, > > I have a home office too. Had a complaint from a neighbor and managed > to get a temporary repreive (no one has bothered me for 2 years.) I > live on a two acre lot but somehow people don't always like other's > prosperity it seems. Anyway, I will go to the county and resolve this Hi Anne! You *will* go to the county? If you opened without the permit you also violated the law! How many others are operating illegally? Fess up everybody! My point exactly, you can't do this legal and still profit, the money isn't there. Oh, yeah, my place is legal - just not enough patients to make it pay. No one can operate legal and compete with crooks. Now if your office is also your home, sure, you can be there to answer the phone all the time, sure you can tell people you charge $125 or whatever and if they don't come so what . . . Home office is a whole different world of economy and convenience, just *against*the*law* in most places! Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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