Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Hi Everybody! Has anyone any experience, or know of any documents on the web or in books concerning the use of acupuncture or herbs to reduce scar tissue? I have a friend who is in a wheel chair because scar tissue is interfering with his spinal nerve impulses after having suffered a broken neck. This man is rather young. He also has a wife and a 13 year old son. I haven't examined him beyond the superficial. I am afraid to do a differentiation interview for fear of getting his or his family's hopes up without reason. Thanks in advance for any help in this. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Acupuncture offers a powerful protocol for dissipating scars. Here are some preliminary steps in inherent groups: 1. which channel does it block? 2. degree of blockage? 3. which channels is connected by inside-outside law? 4. is scar horizontal or almost aligned? 5. is it in mm's or in parts of a cm. in depth? 6. symptoms and signs which relate to channels blocked? 7. what is the 5 E profile as a result? 8. color of scar? 9. color of surrounding tissue? 10. temperature of scar and surrounding tissue? 11. what is " stuck " distal to scar? 12. what is full proximal to scar? 13. now fit all this into as a 5 E pattern which relates to case in a wider sense. If all this done one can begin to " unstuck " the scar. Most of this is done by the " Pinning the Tortoise " method of acupuncture, though I rarely go belong a leg, or the head. Tiny thread moxa also work wonders. Holmes. Pete Theisen wrote: > Hi Everybody! > > Has anyone any experience, or know of any documents on the web or in > books concerning the use of acupuncture or herbs to reduce scar tissue? > > I have a friend who is in a wheel chair because scar tissue is > interfering with his spinal nerve impulses after having suffered a > broken neck. This man is rather young. He also has a wife and a 13 year > old son. > > I haven't examined him beyond the superficial. I am afraid to do a > differentiation interview for fear of getting his or his family's hopes > up without reason. > > Thanks in advance for any help in this. > > Regards, > > Pete > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 I use Resinall K from Health Concerns topically on the scar. Dab a drop or two on a cotton ball. Sell to patient to take home and use twice a day. Dab on, let dry, then put clothes on. It stains. They can actually see a change in the scar with time (but don't create this expectation). Healing can take place underneath the scar, move the Qi and stagnation. It can also move emotional stagnation. Another thing I do during the course of treatments is needle along the edges of the scar, not on it. Point the needle obliquely toward the scar. I do a line of needles around it. I have seen pain move in an area after I've done this. Don't be hesitant to treat your friend. You don't have to create a " cure' expectation, just that you are helping his body along in its own healing process. It sounds like you really care about your friend. That along with a positive healing intention will do him a world of good. Good luck, Anne Pete Theisen wrote: > Hi Everybody! > > Has anyone any experience, or know of any documents on the web or in > books concerning the use of acupuncture or herbs to reduce scar tissue? > > I have a friend who is in a wheel chair because scar tissue is > interfering with his spinal nerve impulses after having suffered a > broken neck. This man is rather young. He also has a wife and a 13 year > old son. > > I haven't examined him beyond the superficial. I am afraid to do a > differentiation interview for fear of getting his or his family's hopes > up without reason. > > Thanks in advance for any help in this. > > Regards, > > Pete > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other > academics, > > > > ------ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 dkakobad wrote: Hi Dr. Kakobad! Inline: > Acupuncture offers a powerful protocol for dissipating scars. > > Here are some preliminary steps in inherent groups: > > 1. which channel does it block? Don't know, it is internal. He broke his neck and the surgery to repair the damage was done from the front, but he really doesn't have anything much showing. Scar tissue is pressing on his spinal cord where the injury was. There might be a slight, very faint external scar below his jaw on the left side of his windpipe, maybe down to the level of the clavicle, a thin line of skin is slightly whiter there, not quite vertical, goes in as it gets lower. > 2. degree of blockage? He has limited use of his arms and hands, legs and feet are non-functional. He can eat if someone cuts his food for him. He can breathe on his own, he was able to father his son. He has great difficulty urinating and has to be catheterized once a day, his wife does this for him. Mentally he is a genius - computer programmer. > 3. which channels is connected by inside-outside law? Don't know what you mean by this. > > 4. is scar horizontal or almost aligned? > 5. is it in mm's or in parts of a cm. in depth? > > 6. symptoms and signs which relate to channels blocked? > 7. what is the 5 E profile as a result? > > 8. color of scar? > 9. color of surrounding tissue? > 10. temperature of scar and surrounding tissue? > > 11. what is " stuck " distal to scar? > 12. what is full proximal to scar? > > 13. now fit all this into as a 5 E pattern which relates to case in a > wider sense. > > If all this done one can begin to " unstuck " the scar. Most of this is > done by the " Pinning the Tortoise " You have me stumped on this one. What is Pinning the Tortoise? > method of acupuncture, though I rarely go belong a leg, or the > head. > > Tiny thread moxa also work wonders. Where would you burn the tiny threads? Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Hi Pete, Has the " scar tissue pressing on his spinal cord where the injury was " been verified by MRI? If not, it is not certain that is the problem. Surgeons like to blame any complication that follows their surgery on scar tissue. (that lets them off the hook) Sometimes complications are due to something else like something they missed or something that did not hold after surgery. - Matthew Bauer - Pete Theisen Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:30 PM Re: Reduce scar tissue? dkakobad wrote: Hi Dr. Kakobad! Inline: > Acupuncture offers a powerful protocol for dissipating scars. > > Here are some preliminary steps in inherent groups: > > 1. which channel does it block? Don't know, it is internal. He broke his neck and the surgery to repair the damage was done from the front, but he really doesn't have anything much showing. Scar tissue is pressing on his spinal cord where the injury was. There might be a slight, very faint external scar below his jaw on the left side of his windpipe, maybe down to the level of the clavicle, a thin line of skin is slightly whiter there, not quite vertical, goes in as it gets lower. > 2. degree of blockage? He has limited use of his arms and hands, legs and feet are non-functional. He can eat if someone cuts his food for him. He can breathe on his own, he was able to father his son. He has great difficulty urinating and has to be catheterized once a day, his wife does this for him. Mentally he is a genius - computer programmer. > 3. which channels is connected by inside-outside law? Don't know what you mean by this. > > 4. is scar horizontal or almost aligned? > 5. is it in mm's or in parts of a cm. in depth? > > 6. symptoms and signs which relate to channels blocked? > 7. what is the 5 E profile as a result? > > 8. color of scar? > 9. color of surrounding tissue? > 10. temperature of scar and surrounding tissue? > > 11. what is " stuck " distal to scar? > 12. what is full proximal to scar? > > 13. now fit all this into as a 5 E pattern which relates to case in a > wider sense. > > If all this done one can begin to " unstuck " the scar. Most of this is > done by the " Pinning the Tortoise " You have me stumped on this one. What is Pinning the Tortoise? > method of acupuncture, though I rarely go belong a leg, or the > head. > > Tiny thread moxa also work wonders. Where would you burn the tiny threads? Regards, Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on this link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Matt Bauer wrote: > Hi Pete, > > Has the " scar tissue pressing on his spinal cord where the injury > was " been verified by MRI? If not, it is not certain that is the > problem. Surgeons like to blame any complication that follows their > surgery on scar tissue. (that lets them off the hook) Sometimes > complications are due to something else like something they missed or > something that did not hold after surgery. - Matthew Bauer Hi Matt! I don't know. I would assume so, but I don't know. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 < Scar tissue is pressing on his spinal cord where the injury was > so this is a scar from the injury, as distinct from a scar of a surgical intervention, the latter tending to be concise with precise boundaries and the latter to be jagged with unpredictable extensions can you name the C's and T's involved and the linear and widthwise area affected? the more exact this is the more precise the intervention < There might be a slight, very faint external scar below his jaw on the left side of his windpipe, maybe down to the level of the clavicle, a thin line of skin is slightly whiter there, not quite vertical, goes in as it gets lower > data gathered: a. seems like a ST vessel involvement by the side of the windpipe; would you say ST 9, 19 and 11 are in the swath of the scar? b. also an involvement of the terminal K vessel at point 27 Shu Mansion by the way, thin scars are more likely to cause qi block than thick ones < He has limited use of his arms and hands, legs and feet are non-functional . c. lower C and upper T injury and scarring will explain upper limbs; legs and feet, no. d. i am thinking of either an intra cranial trauma, and that does not make sense. more likely this is a scapulo ischial, shoulder-hip type syndrome. palpate, examine closely, establish temperature, anything, at shoulder girdle, which is scapula, upper lower fossae, edges medial lateral, ridge, T 1 to T 7 or even 8, aligned Huato's, related DU points, para spinal muscles, look for nodules, cold spots, aggregations, tender slivers, " knife edge " manifestations. look esp at GB 21, is one side bunched up. next do the same on hip and related muscles are areas. idea is to establish a hologram and the treat the upper to release the lower. < He can eat if someone cuts his food for him > * Earth is well and central < He can breathe on his own > * Metal is well and sharp note that the second Mothers the first < he was able to father his son > * Water yin is well and deep < He has great difficulty urinating and has to be catheterized once a day, his wife does this for him > * Water yang is not well and needs help < Mentally he is a genius - computer programmer > * HT shen is well and burning bright if Earth is well, Metal is well, HT shen is well, Water yin is well, and Water yang is not, this is not elemental but sectoral, a result of an injury. < * Earth is well and central < which channels is connected by inside-outside law? > as in ST with SP, P with SJ; also look at up and down law, which 6 pairs of ST with LI and P with LV < You have me stumped on this one. What is Pinning the Tortoise? > a fanciful way of looking at a fat scar, hear there and feet here; needles are towards the center and placed at 5 points very shallow < Where would you burn the tiny threads? > at margin of scar, fibrous insensitive qi-less area, with rest of tissue, collage nous, with fine flow Blood and qi in time the scar recedes thoughts: trouble is at C and T junction, which has created a shoulder-hip problem approach: establish this pattern beyond doubt and begin work also set up the 5 E pattern so the rest of him can get into shape this is a classical qi block; full proximal to scar, empty at distal, empty is lower limbs and UB work to establish urination by ear, scalp, pressure on Water Huato's, hand and foot reflex. catheter will sooner or later behave like an injury and lead to Water and Lower warmer stagnation Holmes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 My point here Pete is there is a difference when scar tissue has be verified vs. suspected. If the doctors are just assuming it is scar tissue, it could be something else. My first son underwent two unnecessary surgeries because they thought his complications were due to scar tissue when there was another pathology involved entirely. I have seen the same with several of my patients. - Matt - Pete Theisen Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 28, 2005 7:13 PM Re: Reduce scar tissue? Matt Bauer wrote: > Hi Pete, > > Has the " scar tissue pressing on his spinal cord where the injury > was " been verified by MRI? If not, it is not certain that is the > problem. Surgeons like to blame any complication that follows their > surgery on scar tissue. (that lets them off the hook) Sometimes > complications are due to something else like something they missed or > something that did not hold after surgery. - Matthew Bauer Hi Matt! I don't know. I would assume so, but I don't know. Regards, Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on this link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 i have thought a little more and have looked up notes. even before you establish a 5 E pattern and sort out scar at C & T, can you report on tongue? and on face color? here look for out of ordinary hues in their own sectors, and then such hues in misplaced ones. i am thinking if we can form a working model from tongue and face color some kind of intervention can begin right away. goal? at least more mobility, or cease the deterioration, or have UB work to fill and empty bladder holmes dkakobad wrote: > < Scar tissue is pressing on his spinal cord where the injury was > > > so this is a scar from the injury, as distinct from a scar of a > surgical intervention, the latter tending to be concise with precise > boundaries and the latter to be jagged with unpredictable extensions > > can you name the C's and T's involved and the linear and widthwise > area affected? > the more exact this is the more precise the intervention > > < There might be a slight, very faint external scar below his jaw on > the left side of his windpipe, maybe down to the level of the > clavicle, a thin line of skin is slightly whiter there, not quite > vertical, goes in as it gets lower > > > data gathered: > a. seems like a ST vessel involvement by the side of the windpipe; > would you say ST 9, 19 and 11 are in the swath of the scar? > b. also an involvement of the terminal K vessel at point 27 Shu Mansion > > by the way, thin scars are more likely to cause qi block than thick ones > > < He has limited use of his arms and hands, legs and feet are > non-functional . > > c. lower C and upper T injury and scarring will explain upper limbs; > legs and feet, no. > > d. i am thinking of either an intra cranial trauma, and that does not > make sense. more likely > this is a scapulo ischial, shoulder-hip type syndrome. > > palpate, examine closely, establish temperature, anything, at shoulder > girdle, which is scapula, > upper lower fossae, edges medial lateral, ridge, T 1 to T 7 or even 8, > aligned Huato's, > related DU points, para spinal muscles, look for nodules, cold spots, > aggregations, tender slivers, " knife edge " manifestations. look esp at > GB 21, is one side bunched up. > > next do the same on hip and related muscles are areas. > > idea is to establish a hologram and the treat the upper to release the > lower. > > < He can eat if someone cuts his food for him > > > * Earth is well and central > > < He can breathe on his own > > > * Metal is well and sharp > > note that the second Mothers the first > > < he was able to father his son > > > * Water yin is well and deep > > < He has great difficulty urinating and has to be catheterized once a > day, his wife > does this for him > > > * Water yang is not well and needs help > > < Mentally he is a genius - computer programmer > > > * HT shen is well and burning bright > > if Earth is well, Metal is well, HT shen is well, Water yin is well, > and Water > yang is not, this is not elemental but sectoral, a result of an injury. > > < * Earth is well and central > > < which channels is connected by inside-outside law? > > > as in ST with SP, P with SJ; also look at up and down law, which 6 > pairs of ST with LI and P with LV > > < You have me stumped on this one. What is Pinning the Tortoise? > > > a fanciful way of looking at a fat scar, hear there and feet here; > needles are towards the center and placed at 5 points very shallow > > < Where would you burn the tiny threads? > > > at margin of scar, fibrous insensitive qi-less area, with rest of > tissue, collage nous, with fine flow Blood and qi > > in time the scar recedes > > thoughts: trouble is at C and T junction, which has created a > shoulder-hip problem > approach: establish this pattern beyond doubt and begin work > > also set up the 5 E pattern so the rest of him can get into shape > > this is a classical qi block; full proximal to scar, empty at distal, > empty is lower limbs and UB > > work to establish urination by ear, scalp, pressure on Water Huato's, > hand and foot reflex. catheter will sooner or later behave like an > injury and lead to Water and Lower warmer stagnation > > Holmes > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Kiiko Matsumoto has a book on clinical practice that came out last year. I know she talks alot about such issues. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Pete Theisen <petet >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine > Reduce scar tissue? >Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:29:40 -0400 > >Hi Everybody! > >Has anyone any experience, or know of any documents on the web or in >books concerning the use of acupuncture or herbs to reduce scar tissue? > >I have a friend who is in a wheel chair because scar tissue is >interfering with his spinal nerve impulses after having suffered a >broken neck. This man is rather young. He also has a wife and a 13 year >old son. > >I haven't examined him beyond the superficial. I am afraid to do a >differentiation interview for fear of getting his or his family's hopes >up without reason. > >Thanks in advance for any help in this. > >Regards, > >Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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