Guest guest Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Dear Group, Here is a case I could use some help with. Male, 37. Main complaint is that he gets frequent colds, has a hard time recovering, and the infections routinely go into his lungs leading to cough with thick green and yellow mucous. He has extremely large, swollen tonsils and says they've been that way for many years (at least 10 years). MD's would like to remove tonsils as they blame them for his recurring colds. Patient is considering the surgery but wants a CM opinion first. Recent history: Over three weeks ago caught a cold, fever reached 39.5C, infection went into lungs and had cough with thick yellow phlegm. Lots of sweating. Started to have some pain in his left ear after 4 days and went to see MD, who prescribed one week of Erythromycin, 250mg, qid. Recovered from cold after one week and ear was asymptomatic after finished antibiotics. Two days later ear pain came back and was prescribed Cefradine, 500mg, tid for five days. Ear pain started to go away, then patient caught another cold. Fever averaged 38.5C, but topped at 39.5. Again went into lung and also into sinus with thick yellow phlegm from both. Again, lots of sweating. Now: Patient at tail end of this last cold which he's had just over one week. Still has lingering low fever- 37.5-38.0C. Cough with a bit of thick green/yellow phlegm. Yellow phlegm from sinuses. Sweats very easily, day and night. Occasional chills. Moderately thirsty. Appetite OK. Bowels normal. Urine normal. Sleep, OK. Patient very thin. Clammy skin and obvious sweating on brow, arms, palms. Dark circles under eyes. Tongue is red, esp. red tip, thin body, thin white coat, slight tooth marks. Pulse (please bear with my limited abilities here): slightly rapid (80bpm) left and right cun both very thin and weak, right guan slightly thin, left guan thin, left and right chi both thin, deep and weak. I'm not having too hard a time with his CM diagnosis (although if any of you would like to send your ideas they are most welcome), but I am not sure what to tell him about his tonsils. Do you think he is frequently sick because of the tonsils, or his obviously deficient condition, or both? Do you think having the tonsils out followed by some CM treatment would be the best solution, or do you like leaving the tonsils there? Any and all suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance! Sincerely, Greg Livingston, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Greg, This area is an important indicator for immune problems in the Kiiko system. If you have a chance pick up her latest book, clinical strategies vol 1. In it she discusses how and why treating this is important. She has abdominal reflexes to palpate and ways to help clear infection from these tissues. It would be nice to know how this started and what life events the person remembers going on at the time. This area you mention is important and they will not disappear with surgery, only go deeper. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Greg Livingston <drlivingston >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine > Huge tonsils and reccurent colds >Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:37:51 +0800 > >Dear Group, > >Here is a case I could use some help with. > >Male, 37. Main complaint is that he gets frequent colds, has a hard >time recovering, and the infections routinely go into his lungs >leading to cough with thick green and yellow mucous. He has extremely >large, swollen tonsils and says they've been that way for many years >(at least 10 years). MD's would like to remove tonsils as they blame >them for his recurring colds. Patient is considering the surgery but >wants a CM opinion first. > >Recent history: Over three weeks ago caught a cold, fever reached >39.5C, infection went into lungs and had cough with thick yellow >phlegm. Lots of sweating. Started to have some pain in his left ear >after 4 days and went to see MD, who prescribed one week of >Erythromycin, 250mg, qid. Recovered from cold after one week and ear >was asymptomatic after finished antibiotics. Two days later ear pain >came back and was prescribed Cefradine, 500mg, tid for five days. Ear >pain started to go away, then patient caught another cold. Fever >averaged 38.5C, but topped at 39.5. Again went into lung and also into >sinus with thick yellow phlegm from both. Again, lots of sweating. > >Now: Patient at tail end of this last cold which he's had just over >one week. Still has lingering low fever- 37.5-38.0C. Cough with a bit >of thick green/yellow phlegm. Yellow phlegm from sinuses. Sweats very >easily, day and night. Occasional chills. Moderately thirsty. Appetite >OK. Bowels normal. Urine normal. Sleep, OK. > >Patient very thin. Clammy skin and obvious sweating on brow, arms, >palms. Dark circles under eyes. Tongue is red, esp. red tip, thin >body, thin white coat, slight tooth marks. Pulse (please bear with my >limited abilities here): slightly rapid (80bpm) left and right cun >both very thin and weak, right guan slightly thin, left guan thin, >left and right chi both thin, deep and weak. > >I'm not having too hard a time with his CM diagnosis (although if any >of you would like to send your ideas they are most welcome), but I am >not sure what to tell him about his tonsils. Do you think he is >frequently sick because of the tonsils, or his obviously deficient >condition, or both? Do you think having the tonsils out followed by >some CM treatment would be the best solution, or do you like leaving >the tonsils there? > >Any and all suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance! > >Sincerely, > >Greg Livingston, L.Ac. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 firstly the tonsils removed would have not the slightest advantage to him, would probably aggravate his root condition secondly could you please report on any fissures on his tongue? off the cuff this seems to be more a case of compromised immune system status being played on on LU and LI problem is to find out if this injury is coming from HT, or SP or from LU itself can you say what 5 E pattern you have decided he is? regards dr holmes Greg Livingston wrote: > Dear Group, > > Here is a case I could use some help with. > > Male, 37. Main complaint is that he gets frequent colds, has a hard > time recovering, and the infections routinely go into his lungs > leading to cough with thick green and yellow mucous. He has extremely > large, swollen tonsils and says they've been that way for many years > (at least 10 years). MD's would like to remove tonsils as they blame > them for his recurring colds. Patient is considering the surgery but > wants a CM opinion first. > > Recent history: Over three weeks ago caught a cold, fever reached > 39.5C, infection went into lungs and had cough with thick yellow > phlegm. Lots of sweating. Started to have some pain in his left ear > after 4 days and went to see MD, who prescribed one week of > Erythromycin, 250mg, qid. Recovered from cold after one week and ear > was asymptomatic after finished antibiotics. Two days later ear pain > came back and was prescribed Cefradine, 500mg, tid for five days. Ear > pain started to go away, then patient caught another cold. Fever > averaged 38.5C, but topped at 39.5. Again went into lung and also into > sinus with thick yellow phlegm from both. Again, lots of sweating. > > Now: Patient at tail end of this last cold which he's had just over > one week. Still has lingering low fever- 37.5-38.0C. Cough with a bit > of thick green/yellow phlegm. Yellow phlegm from sinuses. Sweats very > easily, day and night. Occasional chills. Moderately thirsty. Appetite > OK. Bowels normal. Urine normal. Sleep, OK. > > Patient very thin. Clammy skin and obvious sweating on brow, arms, > palms. Dark circles under eyes. Tongue is red, esp. red tip, thin > body, thin white coat, slight tooth marks. Pulse (please bear with my > limited abilities here): slightly rapid (80bpm) left and right cun > both very thin and weak, right guan slightly thin, left guan thin, > left and right chi both thin, deep and weak. > > I'm not having too hard a time with his CM diagnosis (although if any > of you would like to send your ideas they are most welcome), but I am > not sure what to tell him about his tonsils. Do you think he is > frequently sick because of the tonsils, or his obviously deficient > condition, or both? Do you think having the tonsils out followed by > some CM treatment would be the best solution, or do you like leaving > the tonsils there? > > Any and all suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance! > > Sincerely, > > Greg Livingston, L.Ac. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Dear Mike, Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately I have no easy access to the book you mentioned as I live in China. Based on your and Holmes' replies I have had another interview with the patient to try to get to the root of the problem. Maybe after reading that (I'm going to write it up in an email soon for the group), if you have the time and inclination, you could give me some suggestions out of Kiiko's book or elsewhere. Thank you, once again! Best wishes, Greg Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > Greg, > > This area is an important indicator for immune problems in the Kiiko system. > If you have a chance pick up her latest book, clinical strategies vol 1. > In it she discusses how and why treating this is important. She has > abdominal reflexes to palpate and ways to help clear infection from these > tissues. It would be nice to know how this started and what life events the > person remembers going on at the time. This area you mention is important > and they will not disappear with surgery, only go deeper. > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Dear Dr Holmes, Thanks for taking time to help. > firstly the tonsils removed would have not the slightest > advantage to him, would probably aggravate his root condition I see. This is what I kind of guessed, but was not really sure. > secondly could you please report on any fissures on his tongue? There are no fissures. The midline has what I would consider a normal looking " crease " , but there are really no fissures or cracks. > > off the cuff this seems to be more a case of compromised immune > system status being played on on LU and LI > > problem is to find out if this injury is coming from HT, or SP or > from LU itself > > can you say what 5 E pattern you have decided he is? Unfortunately, my ability as a 5E diagnostician is extremely limited. I had another meeting with the patient since my last email and will write it up and post it asap. Maybe from that you can help me with a 5E diagnosis and treatment. Thanks again for your help. Sincerely, Greg > > regards > > dr holmes > > Greg Livingston wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Here is a case I could use some help with. > > > > Male, 37. Main complaint is that he gets frequent colds, has a hard > > time recovering, and the infections routinely go into his lungs > > leading to cough with thick green and yellow mucous. He has extremely > > large, swollen tonsils and says they've been that way for many years > > (at least 10 years). MD's would like to remove tonsils as they blame > > them for his recurring colds. Patient is considering the surgery but > > wants a CM opinion first. > > > > Recent history: Over three weeks ago caught a cold, fever reached > > 39.5C, infection went into lungs and had cough with thick yellow > > phlegm. Lots of sweating. Started to have some pain in his left ear > > after 4 days and went to see MD, who prescribed one week of > > Erythromycin, 250mg, qid. Recovered from cold after one week and ear > > was asymptomatic after finished antibiotics. Two days later ear pain > > came back and was prescribed Cefradine, 500mg, tid for five days. Ear > > pain started to go away, then patient caught another cold. Fever > > averaged 38.5C, but topped at 39.5. Again went into lung and also into > > sinus with thick yellow phlegm from both. Again, lots of sweating. > > > > Now: Patient at tail end of this last cold which he's had just over > > one week. Still has lingering low fever- 37.5-38.0C. Cough with a bit > > of thick green/yellow phlegm. Yellow phlegm from sinuses. Sweats very > > easily, day and night. Occasional chills. Moderately thirsty. Appetite > > OK. Bowels normal. Urine normal. Sleep, OK. > > > > Patient very thin. Clammy skin and obvious sweating on brow, arms, > > palms. Dark circles under eyes. Tongue is red, esp. red tip, thin > > body, thin white coat, slight tooth marks. Pulse (please bear with my > > limited abilities here): slightly rapid (80bpm) left and right cun > > both very thin and weak, right guan slightly thin, left guan thin, > > left and right chi both thin, deep and weak. > > > > I'm not having too hard a time with his CM diagnosis (although if any > > of you would like to send your ideas they are most welcome), but I am > > not sure what to tell him about his tonsils. Do you think he is > > frequently sick because of the tonsils, or his obviously deficient > > condition, or both? Do you think having the tonsils out followed by > > some CM treatment would be the best solution, or do you like leaving > > the tonsils there? > > > > Any and all suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance! > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Greg Livingston, L.Ac. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Dear Group, Here is some more information about this patient. Born 1968 in the US. Thinks birth was 'normal', but not sure. Always happy as a child. Parents divorced when he was four, but was not very difficult for him. Has one older sister, healthy. Mother, healthy, smoked cigarettes since she was 18 (and possibly some during pregnancy with patient) and marijuana since right after he was born. He remembers being exposed to a fair amount of second-hand smoke, tobacco and marijuana, throughout his childhood. Father died of colon cancer at 53. Father's parents both died of heart disease at relatively young ages. Mother's family has good longevity and health. As a child, patient was always small and timid, and possibly a bit more prone to getting sick than others, but not especially bad. No serious childhood ilnesses. Had all routine vaccinations for that time. Patient is very intelligent, always did well in school, although was not the most popular kid. Not particularly athletic, but always farily energetic and in decent shape. Upon entering high-school (not quite 14 years old), patient began smoking marijuana fairly heavily (daily use), began experimneting with LSD (maybe 15 times when 14 years old, then stopped) and dabbled in mushrooms. Father died during his freshman year in high-school, and patient was extremely sad and depressed. Senior year in high- school patient used a small amount of cocaine over the year. After high school quit all drugs except marijuana, which he continued to smoke off and on until 24. At 26, separated from girlfriend for a time and was extremely sad. They got back together for a bit, during which time she infected him with HSV 2 and HPV. He has had a hard time with the HSV 2 ever since, with frequent episodes (aprox 1 time every 1.5-3 months), sometimes going longer without outbreaks, but never more than about 4 months. Around that same time patient had 2 HBV vaccinations (1996), then moved to China, where he has been ever since. Ever since the HSV infetion and the HBV vaccinations (I'm thinking Thimerasol poisoning?), patient has felt fatigued and easy to get sick. Pollution levels in China most certainly don't help his condition. Before the HSV infection and the HBV vaccinations, patients claims to have been in very good shape, despite being very thin. Could walk 25+ miles in a day and frequently carried heavy backpack many miles in the mountains without problems. It was after he moved to China that a doctor pointed out his large tonsils, but he has no idea when they became enlarged as he hadn't been to a doctor for many years prior to that exam. They have been large ever since that time. His appetite is generally decent, although as of late it's not as good. He thinks maybe to due to the hot, damp summer and his being sick. Patient is thirsty but doesn't feel like drinking. Tongue is red, very red tip, coating (I'm changing what I wrote previously) is thin and yellow and slightly greasy. Pulses are as reported previously: >Pulse (please bear with my > limited abilities here): slightly rapid (80bpm) left and right cun > both very thin and weak, right guan slightly thin, left guan thin, > left and right chi both thin, deep and weak. Finally, he has been to a couple CM docs here (Hangzhou, China) and they also suggested that his tonsils were part of his problem. One doc suggested ???? (invigorate blood and transform phlegm) herbs could be of use. Dr Holmes, I don't know if this info will help with his 5 E diagnosis. Let me know if there is any other info that would be useful. Ideas and suggestions from all are welcome. Thanks! Best wishes, Greg Chinese Medicine , Greg Livingston <drlivingston@g...> wrote: > Dear Group, > > Here is a case I could use some help with. > > Male, 37. Main complaint is that he gets frequent colds, has a hard > time recovering, and the infections routinely go into his lungs > leading to cough with thick green and yellow mucous. He has extremely > large, swollen tonsils and says they've been that way for many years > (at least 10 years). MD's would like to remove tonsils as they blame > them for his recurring colds. Patient is considering the surgery but > wants a CM opinion first. > > Recent history: Over three weeks ago caught a cold, fever reached > 39.5C, infection went into lungs and had cough with thick yellow > phlegm. Lots of sweating. Started to have some pain in his left ear > after 4 days and went to see MD, who prescribed one week of > Erythromycin, 250mg, qid. Recovered from cold after one week and ear > was asymptomatic after finished antibiotics. Two days later ear pain > came back and was prescribed Cefradine, 500mg, tid for five days. Ear > pain started to go away, then patient caught another cold. Fever > averaged 38.5C, but topped at 39.5. Again went into lung and also into > sinus with thick yellow phlegm from both. Again, lots of sweating. > > Now: Patient at tail end of this last cold which he's had just over > one week. Still has lingering low fever- 37.5-38.0C. Cough with a bit > of thick green/yellow phlegm. Yellow phlegm from sinuses. Sweats very > easily, day and night. Occasional chills. Moderately thirsty. Appetite > OK. Bowels normal. Urine normal. Sleep, OK. > > Patient very thin. Clammy skin and obvious sweating on brow, arms, > palms. Dark circles under eyes. Tongue is red, esp. red tip, thin > body, thin white coat, slight tooth marks. Pulse (please bear with my > limited abilities here): slightly rapid (80bpm) left and right cun > both very thin and weak, right guan slightly thin, left guan thin, > left and right chi both thin, deep and weak. > > I'm not having too hard a time with his CM diagnosis (although if any > of you would like to send your ideas they are most welcome), but I am > not sure what to tell him about his tonsils. Do you think he is > frequently sick because of the tonsils, or his obviously deficient > condition, or both? Do you think having the tonsils out followed by > some CM treatment would be the best solution, or do you like leaving > the tonsils there? > > Any and all suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance! > > Sincerely, > > Greg Livingston, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Here is one more piece of info I forgot to include in the patient's history. He was never breat fed, only given formula. Not sure if that matters, but given the immune-system nature of this case, I thought it should be mentioned. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Greg A. Livingston wrote: Hi Greg! This isn't TCM, but I and a number of my colleagues have seen success with it, to say nothing of Linus Pauling: Vitamin C in large doses. Those who use it believe that it enables the immune system in some way to ward off any kind of infection, but there may be some other explanation. In order to take a large dose you have to get time release, sustained release or extended release. I use 6000 mg per day in three 2000 mg doses as a matter of course. If I feel a cold coming on I increase it to 9000 and the cold usually just doesn't develop any further. Can you get time/sustained/extended release Vitamin C in large sizes in China? I have seen 2000 mg per pill here in the states, but 1000 mg is more easily available. Regards, Pete > Dear Group, > > Here is some more information about this patient. > > Born 1968 in the US. Thinks birth was 'normal', but not sure. Always > happy as a child. Parents divorced when he was four, but was not very > difficult for him. Has one older sister, healthy. Mother, healthy, > smoked cigarettes since she was 18 (and possibly some during > pregnancy with patient) and marijuana since right after he was born. > He remembers being exposed to a fair amount of second-hand smoke, > tobacco and marijuana, throughout his childhood. Father died of colon > cancer at 53. Father's parents both died of heart disease at > relatively young ages. Mother's family has good longevity and health. > > > As a child, patient was always small and timid, and possibly a bit > more prone to getting sick than others, but not especially bad. No > serious childhood ilnesses. Had all routine vaccinations for that > time. Patient is very intelligent, always did well in school, > although was not the most popular kid. Not particularly athletic, but > always farily energetic and in decent shape. Upon entering > high-school (not quite 14 years old), patient began smoking marijuana > fairly heavily (daily use), began experimneting with LSD (maybe 15 > times when 14 years old, then stopped) and dabbled in mushrooms. > Father died during his freshman year in high-school, and patient was > extremely sad and depressed. Senior year in high- school patient used > a small amount of cocaine over the year. After high school quit all > drugs except marijuana, which he continued to smoke off and on until > 24. At 26, separated from girlfriend for a time and was extremely > sad. They got back together for a bit, during which time she infected > him with HSV 2 and HPV. He has had a hard time with the HSV 2 ever > since, with frequent episodes (aprox 1 time every 1.5-3 months), > sometimes going longer without outbreaks, but never more than about 4 > months. Around that same time patient had 2 HBV vaccinations (1996), > then moved to China, where he has been ever since. Ever since the HSV > infetion and the HBV vaccinations (I'm thinking Thimerasol > poisoning?), patient has felt fatigued and easy to get sick. > Pollution levels in China most certainly don't help his condition. > Before the HSV infection and the HBV vaccinations, patients claims to > have been in very good shape, despite being very thin. Could walk 25+ > miles in a day and frequently carried heavy backpack many miles in > the mountains without problems. It was after he moved to China that a > doctor pointed out his large tonsils, but he has no idea when they > became enlarged as he hadn't been to a doctor for many years prior to > that exam. They have been large ever since that time. > > His appetite is generally decent, although as of late it's not as > good. He thinks maybe to due to the hot, damp summer and his being > sick. Patient is thirsty but doesn't feel like drinking. Tongue is > red, very red tip, coating (I'm changing what I wrote previously) is > thin and yellow and slightly greasy. Pulses are as reported > previously: > >> Pulse (please bear with my limited abilities here): slightly rapid >> (80bpm) left and right cun both very thin and weak, right guan >> slightly thin, left guan thin, left and right chi both thin, deep >> and weak. > > > Finally, he has been to a couple CM docs here (Hangzhou, China) and > they also suggested that his tonsils were part of his problem. One > doc suggested ???? (invigorate blood and transform phlegm) herbs > could be of use. > > Dr Holmes, I don't know if this info will help with his 5 E > diagnosis. Let me know if there is any other info that would be > useful. > > Ideas and suggestions from all are welcome. Thanks! > > Best wishes, > > Greg > > > Chinese Medicine , Greg Livingston > <drlivingston@g...> wrote: > >> Dear Group, >> >> Here is a case I could use some help with. >> >> Male, 37. Main complaint is that he gets frequent colds, has a hard >> time recovering, and the infections routinely go into his lungs >> leading to cough with thick green and yellow mucous. He has >> extremely large, swollen tonsils and says they've been that way for >> many years (at least 10 years). MD's would like to remove tonsils >> as they blame them for his recurring colds. Patient is considering >> the surgery but wants a CM opinion first. >> >> Recent history: Over three weeks ago caught a cold, fever reached >> 39.5C, infection went into lungs and had cough with thick yellow >> phlegm. Lots of sweating. Started to have some pain in his left ear >> after 4 days and went to see MD, who prescribed one week of >> Erythromycin, 250mg, qid. Recovered from cold after one week and >> ear was asymptomatic after finished antibiotics. Two days later ear >> pain came back and was prescribed Cefradine, 500mg, tid for five >> days. Ear pain started to go away, then patient caught another >> cold. Fever averaged 38.5C, but topped at 39.5. Again went into >> lung and also into sinus with thick yellow phlegm from both. Again, >> lots of sweating. >> >> Now: Patient at tail end of this last cold which he's had just over >> one week. Still has lingering low fever- 37.5-38.0C. Cough with a >> bit of thick green/yellow phlegm. Yellow phlegm from sinuses. >> Sweats very easily, day and night. Occasional chills. Moderately >> thirsty. Appetite OK. Bowels normal. Urine normal. Sleep, OK. >> >> Patient very thin. Clammy skin and obvious sweating on brow, arms, >> palms. Dark circles under eyes. Tongue is red, esp. red tip, thin >> body, thin white coat, slight tooth marks. Pulse (please bear with >> my limited abilities here): slightly rapid (80bpm) left and right >> cun both very thin and weak, right guan slightly thin, left guan >> thin, left and right chi both thin, deep and weak. >> >> I'm not having too hard a time with his CM diagnosis (although if >> any of you would like to send your ideas they are most welcome), >> but I am not sure what to tell him about his tonsils. Do you think >> he is frequently sick because of the tonsils, or his obviously >> deficient condition, or both? Do you think having the tonsils out >> followed by some CM treatment would be the best solution, or do you >> like leaving the tonsils there? >> >> Any and all suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance! >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Greg Livingston, L.Ac. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 2 things does the crease on tongue extent to the tip is there a cardiac type fold on the ear lobes best holmes Greg A. Livingston wrote: > Dear Dr Holmes, > > Thanks for taking time to help. > > > firstly the tonsils removed would have not the slightest > > advantage to him, would probably aggravate his root condition > > I see. This is what I kind of guessed, but was not really sure. > > > > secondly could you please report on any fissures on his tongue? > > There are no fissures. The midline has what I would consider a normal > looking " crease " , > but there are really no fissures or cracks. > > > > > off the cuff this seems to be more a case of compromised immune > > system status being played on on LU and LI > > > > problem is to find out if this injury is coming from HT, or SP or > > from LU itself > > > > can you say what 5 E pattern you have decided he is? > > Unfortunately, my ability as a 5E diagnostician is extremely limited. I > had another meeting > with the patient since my last email and will write it up and post it > asap. Maybe from that > you can help me with a 5E diagnosis and treatment. > > Thanks again for your help. > > Sincerely, > > Greg > > > > > regards > > > > dr holmes > > > > Greg Livingston wrote: > > > Dear Group, > > > > > > Here is a case I could use some help with. > > > > > > Male, 37. Main complaint is that he gets frequent colds, has a hard > > > time recovering, and the infections routinely go into his lungs > > > leading to cough with thick green and yellow mucous. He has extremely > > > large, swollen tonsils and says they've been that way for many years > > > (at least 10 years). MD's would like to remove tonsils as they blame > > > them for his recurring colds. Patient is considering the surgery but > > > wants a CM opinion first. > > > > > > Recent history: Over three weeks ago caught a cold, fever reached > > > 39.5C, infection went into lungs and had cough with thick yellow > > > phlegm. Lots of sweating. Started to have some pain in his left ear > > > after 4 days and went to see MD, who prescribed one week of > > > Erythromycin, 250mg, qid. Recovered from cold after one week and ear > > > was asymptomatic after finished antibiotics. Two days later ear pain > > > came back and was prescribed Cefradine, 500mg, tid for five days. Ear > > > pain started to go away, then patient caught another cold. Fever > > > averaged 38.5C, but topped at 39.5. Again went into lung and also into > > > sinus with thick yellow phlegm from both. Again, lots of sweating. > > > > > > Now: Patient at tail end of this last cold which he's had just over > > > one week. Still has lingering low fever- 37.5-38.0C. Cough with a bit > > > of thick green/yellow phlegm. Yellow phlegm from sinuses. Sweats very > > > easily, day and night. Occasional chills. Moderately thirsty. Appetite > > > OK. Bowels normal. Urine normal. Sleep, OK. > > > > > > Patient very thin. Clammy skin and obvious sweating on brow, arms, > > > palms. Dark circles under eyes. Tongue is red, esp. red tip, thin > > > body, thin white coat, slight tooth marks. Pulse (please bear with my > > > limited abilities here): slightly rapid (80bpm) left and right cun > > > both very thin and weak, right guan slightly thin, left guan thin, > > > left and right chi both thin, deep and weak. > > > > > > I'm not having too hard a time with his CM diagnosis (although if any > > > of you would like to send your ideas they are most welcome), but I am > > > not sure what to tell him about his tonsils. Do you think he is > > > frequently sick because of the tonsils, or his obviously deficient > > > condition, or both? Do you think having the tonsils out followed by > > > some CM treatment would be the best solution, or do you like leaving > > > the tonsils there? > > > > > > Any and all suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance! > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Greg Livingston, L.Ac. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Dr Holmes, > does the crease on tongue extent to the tip no, it does not. > is there a cardiac type fold on the ear lobes no. lobe is pretty normal looking. Thanks again, Greg > > best > > holmes > > Greg A. Livingston wrote: > > Dear Dr Holmes, > > > > Thanks for taking time to help. > > > > > firstly the tonsils removed would have not the slightest > > > advantage to him, would probably aggravate his root condition > > > > I see. This is what I kind of guessed, but was not really sure. > > > > > > > secondly could you please report on any fissures on his tongue? > > > > There are no fissures. The midline has what I would consider a normal > > looking " crease " , > > but there are really no fissures or cracks. > > > > > > > > off the cuff this seems to be more a case of compromised immune > > > system status being played on on LU and LI > > > > > > problem is to find out if this injury is coming from HT, or SP or > > > from LU itself > > > > > > can you say what 5 E pattern you have decided he is? > > > > Unfortunately, my ability as a 5E diagnostician is extremely limited. I > > had another meeting > > with the patient since my last email and will write it up and post it > > asap. Maybe from that > > you can help me with a 5E diagnosis and treatment. > > > > Thanks again for your help. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > dr holmes > > > > > > Greg Livingston wrote: > > > > Dear Group, > > > > > > > > Here is a case I could use some help with. > > > > > > > > Male, 37. Main complaint is that he gets frequent colds, has a hard > > > > time recovering, and the infections routinely go into his lungs > > > > leading to cough with thick green and yellow mucous. He has extremely > > > > large, swollen tonsils and says they've been that way for many years > > > > (at least 10 years). MD's would like to remove tonsils as they blame > > > > them for his recurring colds. Patient is considering the surgery but > > > > wants a CM opinion first. > > > > > > > > Recent history: Over three weeks ago caught a cold, fever reached > > > > 39.5C, infection went into lungs and had cough with thick yellow > > > > phlegm. Lots of sweating. Started to have some pain in his left ear > > > > after 4 days and went to see MD, who prescribed one week of > > > > Erythromycin, 250mg, qid. Recovered from cold after one week and ear > > > > was asymptomatic after finished antibiotics. Two days later ear pain > > > > came back and was prescribed Cefradine, 500mg, tid for five days. Ear > > > > pain started to go away, then patient caught another cold. Fever > > > > averaged 38.5C, but topped at 39.5. Again went into lung and also into > > > > sinus with thick yellow phlegm from both. Again, lots of sweating. > > > > > > > > Now: Patient at tail end of this last cold which he's had just over > > > > one week. Still has lingering low fever- 37.5-38.0C. Cough with a bit > > > > of thick green/yellow phlegm. Yellow phlegm from sinuses. Sweats very > > > > easily, day and night. Occasional chills. Moderately thirsty. Appetite > > > > OK. Bowels normal. Urine normal. Sleep, OK. > > > > > > > > Patient very thin. Clammy skin and obvious sweating on brow, arms, > > > > palms. Dark circles under eyes. Tongue is red, esp. red tip, thin > > > > body, thin white coat, slight tooth marks. Pulse (please bear with my > > > > limited abilities here): slightly rapid (80bpm) left and right cun > > > > both very thin and weak, right guan slightly thin, left guan thin, > > > > left and right chi both thin, deep and weak. > > > > > > > > I'm not having too hard a time with his CM diagnosis (although if any > > > > of you would like to send your ideas they are most welcome), but I am > > > > not sure what to tell him about his tonsils. Do you think he is > > > > frequently sick because of the tonsils, or his obviously deficient > > > > condition, or both? Do you think having the tonsils out followed by > > > > some CM treatment would be the best solution, or do you like leaving > > > > the tonsils there? > > > > > > > > Any and all suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance! > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > Greg Livingston, L.Ac. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 seems enough here is the pattern emerging * frequent colds - LU * hard time recovering - LU * infections routinely go into his lungs - LU * thick green and yellow mucous - SP & Heat, mother of LU * extremely large, swollen tonsils - ST & Heat * caught a cold, fever reached * 39.5C, infection went into lungs and had cough with thick yellow phlegm. Lots of sweating. Started to have some pain in his left ear after 4 days and went to see MD, who prescribed one week of Erythromycin, 250mg, qid. Recovered from cold after one week and ear was asymptomatic after finished antibiotics. Two days later ear pain came back and was prescribed Cefradine, 500mg, tid for five days. Ear pain started to go away, then patient caught another cold. Fever averaged 38.5C, but topped at 39.5. Again went into lung and also into sinus with thick yellow phlegm from both. Again, lots of sweating. - all ST & LU * Sweats very easily, day and night - LU open pores * Dark circles under eyes - graduated to K by a KO from ST SP * Mother smoked cigarettes since she was 18 (and possibly some during pregnancy with patient) and marijuana since right after he was born. He remembers being exposed to a fair amount of second-hand smoke, tobacco and marijuana, throughout his childhood - LU afflicted, but this is a shen cycle ending up in ST Earth * Father died of colon cancer at 53 - must have been a HT Overwhelming LI * Father's parents both died of heart disease at relatively young ages - another Water Fire Axis which endowed HT LU to father Mother's family has good longevity and health. * Upon entering high-school (not quite 14 years old), patient began smoking marijuana fairly heavily (daily use), began experimneting with LSD (maybe 15 times when 14 years old, then stopped) and dabbled in mushrooms - LU afflicted with Heat * Father died during his freshman year in high-school, and patient was extremely sad and depressed - HT not nourishing son Earth * Senior year in high-school patient used a small amount of cocaine over the year. * After high school quit all drugs except marijuana, which he continued to smoke off and on until 24 - Heat in LU backing into weak ST here tonsils are being created in Heat Damp Earth * At 26, separated from girlfriend for a time and was extremely sad. * They got back together for a bit, during which time she infected him with HSV 2 and HPV. He has had a hard time with the HSV 2 ever since, with frequent episodes (aprox 1 time every 1.5-3 months), sometimes going longer without outbreaks, but never more than about 4 months. - this is ST offending K, bound to happen * Tongue is red - if all tongue red - ST Earth or general Heat, more former * very red tip - this is by ST offending Water yin creating red tip * coating (I'm changing what I wrote previously) is thin and yellow and slightly greasy - again ST Heat now ready for Fire * slightly rapid (80bpm) - fu Heat, pointing to ST, the fu of all fus * left and right cun > both very thin and weak - weak upper warmer * right guan slightly thin, left guan thin - very significant, should be the other way around - !!! the only significant pulse form * , > left and right chi both thin, deep and weak - as a rebound differential diagnosis: what comes up is LU SP ST and marginally HT K primary focus - seems to be LU later & and somewhat para primary - ST pathogen - Heat, later Damp so we need a culprite de supreme is it LU? is it ST? can't be HT can't be K can't be LV can't be Warmers legitimately, by accepted Design it should have been HT, but the absence of creases rules this out what could happen in LU and tend backwards to ST? a smoking mother i am betting there was marijuana even at pregnancy but not a good idea to force the point, men don't like mothers to come up bad a. to my mind the illness is ST Earth yin deficient at birth - b. causing LU deficient during post pubertal life 5 E pattern even if it is vicarious: Inborn Toxic Heat in ST work with this and if it seems OK to you, we can think up protocol btw if things hold at your confirming, you can expect results at first 2 or 3 sessions by the 10th treatment tonsils should have subsided till they matter no more then one can get around to the real problem, to weed out Toxic prenatal Heat from ST dr holmes www.acu-free.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 In the works, should spill out soon Autumn Pulse Audio Book is up & running at http://www.acu-free.com/partners.htm Sleep Apnea: 5 E Patterns should be ready by mid month. Would like to see how this case worked out. Peter Pavolotsky wrote: > Thank you Dr. Holmes, > > How is your book going? > I personally would like to see in it > S & S for different Elements > Your view of Elements interactions > Your logic and rules of making Differential Diags > A lot of complicated case studies > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > --- holmes <dkaikobad wrote: > > > > seems enough > here is the pattern emerging > > * frequent colds - LU > * hard time recovering - LU > * infections routinely go into his lungs - LU > * thick green and yellow mucous - SP & Heat, mother of > LU > * extremely large, swollen tonsils - ST & Heat > * caught a cold, fever reached > * 39.5C, infection went into lungs and had cough with > thick yellow > phlegm. Lots of sweating. Started to have some pain in > his left ear > after 4 days and went to see MD, who prescribed one > week of > Erythromycin, 250mg, qid. Recovered from cold after > one week and ear > was asymptomatic after finished antibiotics. Two days > later ear pain > came back and was prescribed Cefradine, 500mg, tid for > five days. Ear > pain started to go away, then patient caught another > cold. Fever > averaged 38.5C, but topped at 39.5. Again went into > lung and also into > sinus with thick yellow phlegm from both. > Again, lots of sweating. - all ST & LU > > * Sweats very easily, day and night - LU open pores > > * Dark circles under eyes - graduated to K by a KO > from ST SP > > * Mother smoked cigarettes since she was 18 (and > possibly some during > pregnancy with patient) and marijuana since right > after he was born. He > remembers being exposed to a fair amount of > second-hand smoke, tobacco > and marijuana, throughout his childhood > > - LU afflicted, but this is a shen cycle ending up in > ST Earth > > * Father died of colon cancer at 53 - must have been a > HT Overwhelming LI > > * Father's parents both died of heart disease at > relatively young ages > - another Water Fire Axis which endowed HT LU to > father > > Mother's family has good longevity and health. > > * Upon entering high-school (not quite 14 years old), > patient began > smoking marijuana fairly heavily (daily use), began > experimneting with > LSD (maybe 15 times when 14 years old, then stopped) > and dabbled in > mushrooms - LU afflicted with Heat > > * Father died during his freshman year in high-school, > and patient was > extremely sad and depressed - HT not nourishing son > Earth > > * Senior year in high-school patient used a small > amount of cocaine over > the year. > > * After high school quit all drugs except marijuana, > which he continued > to smoke off and on until 24 - Heat in LU backing into > weak ST > > here tonsils are being created in Heat Damp Earth > > * At 26, separated from girlfriend for a time and was > extremely sad. > > * They got back together for a bit, during which time > she infected him > with HSV 2 and HPV. He has had a hard time with the > HSV 2 ever since, > with frequent episodes (aprox 1 time every 1.5-3 > months), > sometimes going longer without outbreaks, but never > more than about 4 > months. - this is ST offending K, bound to happen > > * Tongue is red - if all tongue red - ST Earth or > general Heat, more former > > * very red tip - this is by ST offending Water yin > creating red tip > > * coating (I'm changing what I wrote previously) is > thin and yellow and > slightly greasy - again ST Heat now ready for Fire > > * slightly rapid (80bpm) - fu Heat, pointing to ST, > the fu of all fus > > * left and right cun > both very thin and weak - weak > upper warmer > > * right guan slightly thin, left guan thin - very > significant, should be > the other way around - !!! the only significant pulse > form > > * , > left and right chi both thin, deep and weak - as > a rebound > > differential diagnosis: > > what comes up is LU SP ST and marginally HT K > > primary focus - seems to be LU > later & and somewhat para primary - ST > > pathogen - Heat, later Damp > > so we need a culprite de supreme > is it LU? > is it ST? > can't be HT > can't be K > can't be LV > can't be Warmers > > legitimately, by accepted Design it should have been > HT, but > the absence of creases rules this out > > what could happen in LU and tend backwards to ST? > > a smoking mother > > i am betting there was marijuana even at pregnancy but > not a good idea > to force the point, men don't like mothers to come up > bad > > a. to my mind the illness is ST Earth yin deficient at > birth - > b. causing LU deficient during post pubertal life > > 5 E pattern even if it is vicarious: Inborn Toxic Heat > in ST > > work with this and if it seems OK to you, we can think > up protocol > > btw if things hold at your confirming, you can expect > results > at first 2 or 3 sessions > > by the 10th treatment tonsils should have subsided > till they matter > no more > > then one can get around to the real problem, to weed > out Toxic > prenatal Heat from ST > > dr holmes > www.acu-free.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 hi Greg pl appraise developments write in for input best holmes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Greg, maybe a simple thing to do, but have you thought of watermelon frost for branch treatment of the inflammation? You can find them on every street corner in China (those small pharmacies) and they're dirt cheap, and effective (for throat pain, mouth sores,...). Better even, get the spray so it'll reach his tonsils. As for root treatment, looks like a shao yang case (wen bing xue, due to vaccination). Not easy to treat in clinical practice... Best of luck, Tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Hi Dr Holmes I am not a 5E practitioner and know very little about 5E diagnosis, but I would be curious about the reasoning behind HT not nourishing Earth in a grieving situation. I would have associated grief/sadness with LU. Thanks and kind regards Johanna Schuster, MAOM, Lic.Ac., MATCM(UK) Chinese Medicine , holmes <dkaikobad@c...> wrote: > seems enough > here is the pattern emerging > > * Father died during his freshman year in high-school, and patient was > extremely sad and depressed - HT not nourishing son Earth > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2005 Report Share Posted August 13, 2005 > * Father died during his freshman year in high-school, and patient was extremely sad and depressed - HT not nourishing son Earth > > this is an observation which should be read in the larger picture of the case the item you quote was an interim one, and not so well entered by me, being more attentive as i was to the main diagnosis lets take it backwards from the end result, the diagnosis, it it turns out to be confirmed by greg: toxic prenatal Heat in ST in which case as the man grows there is the devil to pay - if Righteous Heat is offered by Mother HT, it is inaccepaible as there already is a surplus in ST ST thus stays in a state of Excess, which soon becomes a Deficiency as this is Toxic and prenatal, there is no release in which case HT will not nourish Earth even in a previous situation, because the passage from Fire to Earth is blocked in this instance the HT was not the culprit, as it should have been in 9 of 10 cases, because signs did not appear > your reference: I would have associated grief/sadness with LU. > > grief is felt in the LU, at LU 1 and 2, and at Ren 17, to be exact however for this to happen 1. HT must overwhelm LU if grief is horrendous 2. Earth must impoverish LU if grief is transient in his case if grief entered the picture if was of the 2 nd kind lastly, and i ma splitting hairs :-) grief even when felt in LU may originate in - LU K LV HT SP and in each case there will be an imprint of the source i am hoping i have done justice to your Q to me 5 E is the basis of every aspect of life, even the falling in, and falling out of, love 8-) regards holmes www.acu-free.com annahoj_mt wrote: > Hi Dr Holmes > I am not a 5E practitioner and know very little about 5E diagnosis, but > I would be curious about the reasoning behind HT not nourishing Earth > in a grieving situation. I would have associated grief/sadness with LU. > Thanks and kind regards > > Johanna Schuster, MAOM, Lic.Ac., MATCM(UK) > > > Chinese Medicine , holmes > <dkaikobad@c...> wrote: > > seems enough > > here is the pattern emerging > > > > * Father died during his freshman year in high-school, and patient > was > > extremely sad and depressed - HT not nourishing son Earth > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2005 Report Share Posted August 13, 2005 Dear Dr Holmes, I apologize for the delayed reply- things have been hectic here. Actually, there have been some new developements with this patient since last time I wrote. His URI developed into a very nasty acute sinusitis and he was given IV antibiotics for the last three days at the hospital where I work. He is feeling much better now, however, and his fever is gone, but he will probably be kept on oral antibiotics for at least another week- that will be up to the MDs and him. As for his 5E diagnosis, as I believe I previously mentioned, I have no formal 5E training, so while I can make sense of some of what you speak, there is some which I have difficulty following and I have a hard time confirming any 5E diagnosis. > legitimately, by accepted Design it should have been HT, but > the absence of creases rules this out OK. You mean the absence of creases on the lobe, correct? Very interesting. That in and of itself is a significant enough sign to rule out HT involvement? > > what could happen in LU and tend backwards to ST? > > a smoking mother > > i am betting there was marijuana even at pregnancy but not a good idea > to force the point, men don't like mothers to come up bad I definitely didn't feel comfortable pressing this issue with him. He seemed to think it was entirely possible that she smoked tobacco while she was pregnant with him, but seemed fairly sure that she didn't smoke pot during the pregnancy, at least not a lot of pot. Given that he was born in San Francisco in 1968, it would not be improbable for her to have smoked some pot while she was pregnant. In any case, you see this affecting the LU and then insulting back into the ST? Interesting. > > a. to my mind the illness is ST Earth yin deficient at birth - > b. causing LU deficient during post pubertal life I think there is some basis for the Earth diagnosis, and there is no doubt in my mind about the LU being involved. Earth, because the patient is so thin that maybe there is some problem with assimilation of nutrients (Spleen deficiency). Other than that I don't see that he has a lot of Earth symtoms, but that ought to be enough, no? Then Earth not nourishing Metal leading to Lung Qi deficiency, then the pot smoking damaging the Lung (and Kidney) Yin and generating a lot of heat > > 5 E pattern even if it is vicarious: Inborn Toxic Heat in ST I need a bit more of an explanation to be able to understand your thinking here. I am intrigued but can't follow you other than recalling that you said the tonsilitis was related to ST heat. Is that it or is there more?. > > work with this and if it seems OK to you, we can think up protocol > > btw if things hold at your confirming, you can expect results > at first 2 or 3 sessions > > by the 10th treatment tonsils should have subsided till they matter > no more This would be wonderful, although I have to admit I was not expecting that I could get results like that so quickly. If you can really help us achieve such results, this patient will be most grateful and I will seriously start studying 5E practice! > > then one can get around to the real problem, to weed out Toxic > prenatal Heat from ST OK, very good. Let me know what you think from here and then if you help me design a protocol I will begin when the patient is ready. Thanks again for all your help, Dr Holmes. Your time and consideration are most appreciated! Best wishes, Greg > > dr holmes > www.acu-free.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2005 Report Share Posted August 13, 2005 Hi Pete, Thanks for the reply. I have only ever done a small amount of research into megadosing of vitamin C, so don't know much other than Pauling was a huge advocate. It's interesting to hear your testimonial on your use of this therapy, and I know of some people in the alternative cancer treatment community that advocate this. However, there are people that say it is not such a good idea to take megadoses, so I am not sure who to believe. When it comes to recommending therapies to patients, I am uncomfortable recommending anything that I don't know a lot about. I might consider experimenting on myself, but not on a patient. Can you recommend any websites that could further educate me on the subject? That would be a great help. Thanks! Best wishes, Greg PS: probably could get the sustained release C tabs here in China- people here are big on taking vitamins now. :-) Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote: > Greg A. Livingston wrote: > > Hi Greg! > > This isn't TCM, but I and a number of my colleagues have seen success > with it, to say nothing of Linus Pauling: Vitamin C in large doses. > Those who use it believe that it enables the immune system in some way > to ward off any kind of infection, but there may be some other explanation. > > In order to take a large dose you have to get time release, sustained > release or extended release. I use 6000 mg per day in three 2000 mg > doses as a matter of course. If I feel a cold coming on I increase it to > 9000 and the cold usually just doesn't develop any further. > > Can you get time/sustained/extended release Vitamin C in large sizes in > China? I have seen 2000 mg per pill here in the states, but 1000 mg is > more easily available. > > Regards, > > Pete > > Dear Group, > > > > Here is some more information about this patient. > > > > Born 1968 in the US. Thinks birth was 'normal', but not sure. Always > > happy as a child. Parents divorced when he was four, but was not very > > difficult for him. Has one older sister, healthy. Mother, healthy, > > smoked cigarettes since she was 18 (and possibly some during > > pregnancy with patient) and marijuana since right after he was born. > > He remembers being exposed to a fair amount of second-hand smoke, > > tobacco and marijuana, throughout his childhood. Father died of colon > > cancer at 53. Father's parents both died of heart disease at > > relatively young ages. Mother's family has good longevity and health. > > > > > > As a child, patient was always small and timid, and possibly a bit > > more prone to getting sick than others, but not especially bad. No > > serious childhood ilnesses. Had all routine vaccinations for that > > time. Patient is very intelligent, always did well in school, > > although was not the most popular kid. Not particularly athletic, but > > always farily energetic and in decent shape. Upon entering > > high-school (not quite 14 years old), patient began smoking marijuana > > fairly heavily (daily use), began experimneting with LSD (maybe 15 > > times when 14 years old, then stopped) and dabbled in mushrooms. > > Father died during his freshman year in high-school, and patient was > > extremely sad and depressed. Senior year in high- school patient used > > a small amount of cocaine over the year. After high school quit all > > drugs except marijuana, which he continued to smoke off and on until > > 24. At 26, separated from girlfriend for a time and was extremely > > sad. They got back together for a bit, during which time she infected > > him with HSV 2 and HPV. He has had a hard time with the HSV 2 ever > > since, with frequent episodes (aprox 1 time every 1.5-3 months), > > sometimes going longer without outbreaks, but never more than about 4 > > months. Around that same time patient had 2 HBV vaccinations (1996), > > then moved to China, where he has been ever since. Ever since the HSV > > infetion and the HBV vaccinations (I'm thinking Thimerasol > > poisoning?), patient has felt fatigued and easy to get sick. > > Pollution levels in China most certainly don't help his condition. > > Before the HSV infection and the HBV vaccinations, patients claims to > > have been in very good shape, despite being very thin. Could walk 25+ > > miles in a day and frequently carried heavy backpack many miles in > > the mountains without problems. It was after he moved to China that a > > doctor pointed out his large tonsils, but he has no idea when they > > became enlarged as he hadn't been to a doctor for many years prior to > > that exam. They have been large ever since that time. > > > > His appetite is generally decent, although as of late it's not as > > good. He thinks maybe to due to the hot, damp summer and his being > > sick. Patient is thirsty but doesn't feel like drinking. Tongue is > > red, very red tip, coating (I'm changing what I wrote previously) is > > thin and yellow and slightly greasy. Pulses are as reported > > previously: > > > >> Pulse (please bear with my limited abilities here): slightly rapid > >> (80bpm) left and right cun both very thin and weak, right guan > >> slightly thin, left guan thin, left and right chi both thin, deep > >> and weak. > > > > > > Finally, he has been to a couple CM docs here (Hangzhou, China) and > > they also suggested that his tonsils were part of his problem. One > > doc suggested ???? (invigorate blood and transform phlegm) herbs > > could be of use. > > > > Dr Holmes, I don't know if this info will help with his 5 E > > diagnosis. Let me know if there is any other info that would be > > useful. > > > > Ideas and suggestions from all are welcome. Thanks! > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Greg > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Greg Livingston > > <drlivingston@g...> wrote: > > > >> Dear Group, > >> > >> Here is a case I could use some help with. > >> > >> Male, 37. Main complaint is that he gets frequent colds, has a hard > >> time recovering, and the infections routinely go into his lungs > >> leading to cough with thick green and yellow mucous. He has > >> extremely large, swollen tonsils and says they've been that way for > >> many years (at least 10 years). MD's would like to remove tonsils > >> as they blame them for his recurring colds. Patient is considering > >> the surgery but wants a CM opinion first. > >> > >> Recent history: Over three weeks ago caught a cold, fever reached > >> 39.5C, infection went into lungs and had cough with thick yellow > >> phlegm. Lots of sweating. Started to have some pain in his left ear > >> after 4 days and went to see MD, who prescribed one week of > >> Erythromycin, 250mg, qid. Recovered from cold after one week and > >> ear was asymptomatic after finished antibiotics. Two days later ear > >> pain came back and was prescribed Cefradine, 500mg, tid for five > >> days. Ear pain started to go away, then patient caught another > >> cold. Fever averaged 38.5C, but topped at 39.5. Again went into > >> lung and also into sinus with thick yellow phlegm from both. Again, > >> lots of sweating. > >> > >> Now: Patient at tail end of this last cold which he's had just over > >> one week. Still has lingering low fever- 37.5-38.0C. Cough with a > >> bit of thick green/yellow phlegm. Yellow phlegm from sinuses. > >> Sweats very easily, day and night. Occasional chills. Moderately > >> thirsty. Appetite OK. Bowels normal. Urine normal. Sleep, OK. > >> > >> Patient very thin. Clammy skin and obvious sweating on brow, arms, > >> palms. Dark circles under eyes. Tongue is red, esp. red tip, thin > >> body, thin white coat, slight tooth marks. Pulse (please bear with > >> my limited abilities here): slightly rapid (80bpm) left and right > >> cun both very thin and weak, right guan slightly thin, left guan > >> thin, left and right chi both thin, deep and weak. > >> > >> I'm not having too hard a time with his CM diagnosis (although if > >> any of you would like to send your ideas they are most welcome), > >> but I am not sure what to tell him about his tonsils. Do you think > >> he is frequently sick because of the tonsils, or his obviously > >> deficient condition, or both? Do you think having the tonsils out > >> followed by some CM treatment would be the best solution, or do you > >> like leaving the tonsils there? > >> > >> Any and all suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance! > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> Greg Livingston, L.Ac. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2005 Report Share Posted August 13, 2005 Hi Tom, Thought about the Watermelon frost, but didn't think it would help much. Maybe I'm wrong. In any case his throat doesn't really bother him all that much except when he's got a sore throat from one of his frequent colds. In any case, I'm more interested in your diagnosis of Shaoyang disease due to vaccination. Care to elaborate a bit? Thanks! Greg Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom@h...> wrote: > Greg, > > maybe a simple thing to do, but have you thought of watermelon frost for > branch treatment of the inflammation? You can find them on every street > corner in China (those small pharmacies) and they're dirt cheap, and > effective (for throat pain, mouth sores,...). Better even, get the spray so > it'll reach his tonsils. > > As for root treatment, looks like a shao yang case (wen bing xue, due to > vaccination). Not easy to treat in clinical practice... > > Best of luck, > > Tom. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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