Re:TCM- Medical Chinese Online

[Guest guest]

Dr Phil,

 

One thing I do not understand about the pinyin,

and I think I have run across this online before,

when there is a numerical digit at the end (I

believe at the end) of a pinyin word, what does

that mean?

 

Thanks, Lynn

 

--- < wrote:

> Hi All,

 

> There are some useful data on medical Chinese

here:

http://www.mit.edu/~jrg/medicalchinese/Home.htm

 

> http://tinyurl.com/8t5tu [with some mistakes]

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Lynn

 

Proper pinyin is not just letters of the alphabet; it also has marks

made over certain letters, called in some language teaching

texts 'tone graphs'. The tone graphs tell you what intonation to give

to each syllable.

 

Because most computer editors don't enable you to enter tone graphs

over letters, on the internet people often add a numeric digit after

each syllable to indicate which type of tone it has.

 

1 is a completely flat intonation (somewhere in the region between

medium and high).

2 is a rising intonation (typically rising from something like the

mid range to high).

3 is a flat low intonation. This is usually completely flat and low.

When, however the syllable is followed by a pause in speech, it takes

on a modified form it starts low, slightly dips and then rises again.

It also modifies slightly when followed by another 3rd tone; in that

case it becomes something like a 2nd tone - at least that's what the

text books say, but in my view this is an exaggeration.

4 is a sharply falling tone (from very high to low). Like saying

emphatically " No!! " to someone.

 

There is also a 5th tone, called " neutral " which varies depending on

what it follows, either low or somewhat mid-range. The 5th tone is

usually indicated by not adding any tone graph (or number on

computers?).

 

There are one or two other rules about their modification, that I

don't have time to go into now.

 

Basically, most of the time you can read pinyin without the tone

graphs (or numbers) and still get the right meaning. However, there

are some chinese words which have the same pinyin letters, but

different tone-graphs (and therefore different pronunciations) and

RADICALLY DIFFERENT MEANINGS. To accurately differentiate these rare

cases, you should always include tone graphs (or numbers).

 

However, in some cases words have the same pinyin AND tone-graphs

(and numbers), but DIFFERENT MEANINGS. Here there is no substitute

for having the actual characters in front of you.

 

This is why you will variously hear some people asking for " the

pinyin for this or that " or " the chinese characters for this or that " .

 

For example,

 

'shi2' can mean 'excess' or 'food'.

'shi1' can mean 'damp' or 'lack'.

'shi4' can mean 'to be'.

 

However, fortunately, most of the time you don't encounter words on

their own; they are in combination with other words forming (pretty

much) set phrases - and you can usually infer the correct meaning

from that context.

 

eg:

'shi2 zhi4' must mean 'food stagnation'.

'shi2 re4' must mean 'excess heat'.

 

But 'shi1 yun4' could mean 'damp accumulating' or 'lacks movement'.

Here the preceding word(s) should help.

 

'pi2 xu1 shi1 yun4' probably means 'spleen deficiency lacks movement'.

 

'pi2 xu1, shi1 yun4' (with the comma) probably means 'spleen

deficiency (and) damp accumulating'.

 

Hope that helps.

 

All the best, David

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " J. Lynn

Detamore " <lynndetamore> wrote:

>

>

> Dr Phil,

>

> One thing I do not understand about the pinyin,

> and I think I have run across this online before,

> when there is a numerical digit at the end (I

> believe at the end) of a pinyin word, what does

> that mean?

>

> Thanks, Lynn

>

> --- <@e...> wrote:

> > Hi All,

>

> > There are some useful data on medical Chinese

> here:

> http://www.mit.edu/~jrg/medicalchinese/Home.htm

>

> > http://tinyurl.com/8t5tu [with some mistakes]

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

----

 

David Gordon

12/08/05 09:55:52

Chinese Medicine

Re:TCM- Medical Chinese Online

 

3 is a flat low intonation. This is usually completely flat and low.

When, however the syllable is followed by a pause in speech, it takes

on a modified form it starts low, slightly dips and then rises again.

It also modifies slightly when followed by another 3rd tone; in that

case it becomes something like a 2nd tone - at least that's what the

text books say, but in my view this is an exaggeration.

 

 

>>Good explanation, David. About the third tone though: I believe it is the

rule, not the exception to always dip and rise. I have never had anyone

explain to me that it is completely flat and low (this explanation suits the

neutral tone better, I believe.)

When a third tone is followed by another third tone, one must change it into

a second tone. I don't believe this is a textbook exaggeration, but a

general rule. Admittedly, I'm not a sinologist, but this is what I learned.

Native speakers please chime in.

Four tones are still easy compared to Cantonese: 9 tones to play with : )

 

Tom.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Tom

 

Thank you for your comments on something that fascinates me!!

 

Only got a couple of seconds to reply here, but ...

 

The form of the 3rd tone when not followed by a pause (which is just

low with no dip and rise) is standard textbook and is sometimes

called a 'half-3rd tone' - and I have also observed it in native

speakers. Actually, it is stated in the texts as having fall, but no

rise, but I have observed the fall to be *so* minimal as to be

unnoticeable, and I strongly suspect that such fall as exists is

naturally forced on the speaker since he has to lower his or her tone

and open the glottis, which seems to necessitate an 'intro' so to

speak while the tone gets down to the required level. Just my

observation and personal feeling. I always think of it as a flat low

tone, and native speakers complement me on my pronunciation.

 

Here is a quote from " Practical Chinese Reader, Commercial Press, 7-

100-00088-2, vol I, pg 15: " A 3rd tone, when followed by a 1st, 2nd

or 4th tone or most neutral tones, usually becomes a half 3rd tone,

that is, the tone only falls but does not rise. The 3rd tone is

seldom used in full unless it occurs as an independent tone or when

followed by a long pause. In most cases it is changed into a half 3rd

tone, but with its tone-graph unchanged. "

 

Also, Modern Chinese Beginner's Course, Beijing Language and Culture

University Press/Sinolingua, 7-5619-0425-8, 2nd edn, vol 1-2, pg

17: " When followed by a syllable in the 1st, 2nd, 4th or netrual

tone, a third tone syllable is pronounced in the half-third tone,

that is, only the initial falling is pronounced, with the rise

substituted by the syllable that follows. "

 

However, it is usually taught the other way around, ie usually dip-

and-rise, *except* when not followed by a pause. But the *usual* case

is that it is *not* followed by a pause, so I prefer to state it the

other way around - more natural and easy to apply.

 

Actually, if you try to use a full 3rd tone in quick speaking I think

it would sound strange - and would really be impossible.

 

My disagreement with the 3rd+3rd rule is one of degree and based upon

my own observation of native speakers. I believe the 3rd that

modifies doesn't become a *standard* 2nd tone, though it modifies

*towards* that. Just listen to a native speaker say ni hao (ie ni3

hao3) as and then say to yourself ni2 hao3. The native speaker's ni

starts very low (and then admittedly moves upward). However, if you

pronounce ni2hao2 you will probably (at least I think you should)

start the ni somewhere in the mid range.

 

I asked one native speaker (who was quite well educated) about the

3rd+3rd rule - and he had never even heard of it. I personally think

it is a natural thing that happens.

 

Like you, Tom, I would be interested in native speakers' feedback on

this issue.

 

If it is too off topic I am happy to continue off-list.

 

All the best to you. Nice to meet people who also have some passion

for zhongguo hua.

 

David

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe "

<verhaeghe_tom@h...> wrote:

>

>

>

> ----

>

> David Gordon

> 12/08/05 09:55:52

> Chinese Medicine

> Re:TCM- Medical Chinese Online

>

> 3 is a flat low intonation. This is usually completely flat and

low.

> When, however the syllable is followed by a pause in speech, it

takes

> on a modified form it starts low, slightly dips and then rises

again.

> It also modifies slightly when followed by another 3rd tone; in

that

> case it becomes something like a 2nd tone - at least that's what

the

> text books say, but in my view this is an exaggeration.

>

>

> >>Good explanation, David. About the third tone though: I believe

it is the

> rule, not the exception to always dip and rise. I have never had

anyone

> explain to me that it is completely flat and low (this explanation

suits the

> neutral tone better, I believe.)

> When a third tone is followed by another third tone, one must

change it into

> a second tone. I don't believe this is a textbook exaggeration, but

a

> general rule. Admittedly, I'm not a sinologist, but this is what I

learned.

> Native speakers please chime in.

> Four tones are still easy compared to Cantonese: 9 tones to play

with : )

>

> Tom.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry small correction to my last post:

 

> my own observation of native speakers. I believe the 3rd that

> modifies doesn't become a *standard* 2nd tone, though it modifies

> *towards* that. Just listen to a native speaker say ni hao (ie ni3

> hao3) as and then say to yourself ni2 hao3. The native speaker's ni

> starts very low (and then admittedly moves upward). However, if you

> pronounce ni2hao2 [sHOULD READ NI2HAO3] you will probably (at least I

think you should)

> start the ni somewhere in the mid range.

 

David

[Guest guest]

Thanks, David. I took an eency bit of Chinese

during school, but I did not connect the numbers.

Thanks! Lynn

 

 

--- David Gordon <junhengclinic

wrote:

Lynn

Proper pinyin is not just letters of the

alphabet; it also has marks made over certain

letters, called in some language teaching texts

'tone graphs'. The tone graphs tell you what

intonation to give to each syllable.

 

Because most computer editors don't enable you to

enter tone graphs over letters, on the internet

people often add a numeric digit after each

syllable to indicate which type of tone it has.