Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 I have been reading some of these posts and I have to say that misunderstandings breed misunderstandings, the problem with much of this is the poor education that some of the teachers received in the state’s, in the early beginnings of this industry, they have just propagated false ideas for so many years that they have legitimize these made up concepts. I remember some of my teachers not being able to explain some concepts because of there incomplete education in basic theory, and they usually would resort to explaining it by means of a different theoretical model, without exploring the literature or asking their Chinese counterparts for answers for fear of loosing face not that their Chinese counterparts had their problems too in conveying the information. It is really a shame because this has turned out to be the legacy for many American acupuncturists, many misrepresented ideas and concepts that are still alive and well in many schools in the states. The majority of the fault, falls on the administration of many of these schools for not even understanding what their business is all about, they just want to open a school and propagate what ever there idealistic romantic ideas of East Asian medicine is, without any serious, responsible, objective, research to what really is going on, especially in it’s place of origin, not to say that all schools are like that, because there are some exceptional schools in the US, and they usually are known only by the quality of their Teachers, but sadly these are still very few compared to the amount of schools of oriental medicine in the states . Many students go into school thinking they are going to get a complete education and transmission of knowledge, but the truth is that many of the programs don’t even have the adequate texts to really make it a comprehensive education compared to their Chinese or Japanese counter parts and that is largely due to the lack of responsibly translated literature or the lack of some schools not wanting to implement certain responsibly translated texts because of cumbersome language, that is just plain irresponsible and lazy. Of course there is plurality in Chinese medicine but teachers have to look at what are the standards of practice from the place of origin and how are they implemented in the place of origin. This is a health care field, were patient’s pay their practitioner usually from out of pocket for their services, wouldn’t it be prudent and responsible of us to learn and implement the standards of practice which are proven to produce a consistent outcome. It is our responsibility to learn as accurately as we can, in order to reproduce the same results as our Asian counterparts and in so doing provide a better service to our patients. This is not meant to upset any one; these are just my thoughts from my experience as a student having attended several schools in the US. Respectfully Gabriel Fuentes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 I've been teaching Chinese medicine, with a focus on herbal medicine, for sixteen years, based on the Jewish adage " if you know aleph, teach aleph " . Also, one learns more by teaching. I am one of the original generation of Western-born teachers and practitioners, and my response to the challenge of learning accurate information about Chinese medicine was to continue to study and practice, study and practice. It was very humbling and sometimes an emotional upheaval to realize that my knowledge base was sometimes inadequate, but I would argue that I've always been able to inspire my students to study more and more all the time, and to have 'fire in the belly' for the subject matter. Perhaps the greatest revolution in my study and practice was the publication of the " Practical Dictionary of " and the collection of texts based on Wiseman terminology. It gave me a map to enter the territory of medical Chinese language, and get a much firmer grasp on the subject at hand. I think that it is very important to have a basic grasp of an Asian medical language in order to get a firm understanding of Chinese/Asian medicine. One cannot rely on some of the accepted textbooks as the sole basis of practice, as Gabriel has pointed out. In my early days as a student in the late 1970's, there were basically two schools of thought, the " five element schools " , basically the Worsley approach and the Nakazono Institute in Santa Fe, N.M., and the so-called " eight-principle " schools, based on " Outline of Chinese Acupuncture " , a highly simplified acupuncture text actually written as a crash course for Western MD's. We were thrilled when " Web That Has No Weaver " came out, it went much further, along with stuff published by ACTCM in San Francisco. I always saw the divide between the five elements and eight principle schools as an artificial one, one of several damaging arguments in the profession that has always weakened our standing. Nonetheless, we do need to have these discussions out in the open, and I agree with Gabriel that there is in many CM schools a level of intellectual laziness, low quality of teaching, and not very selective student enrollment. There are many reasons and many variables, but it leads to a lower quality profession than would be ideal, and both patients and practitioners are often discouraged by the results. I know of one school, for example, that refuses to use any Wiseman-based texts or terminology, this is just inexcusable. Also, only one school in America requires the study of medical Chinese at the masters level (Seattle Institute of Oriental Medicine, we can thank Dan Bensky for this), and one at the doctorate level (Pacific College of Oriental Medicine/San Diego). We've gotta lotta livin' to do On Dec 16, 2005, at 9:02 AM, gabe gabe wrote: > > > I have been reading some of these posts and I have to > say that misunderstandings breed misunderstandings, > the problem with much of this is the poor education > that some of the teachers received in the state’s, in > the early beginnings of this industry, they have just > propagated false ideas for so many years that they > have legitimize these made up concepts. I remember > some of my teachers not being able to explain some > concepts because of there incomplete education in > basic theory, and they usually would resort to > explaining it by means of a different theoretical > model, without exploring the literature or asking > their Chinese counterparts for answers for fear of > loosing face not that their Chinese counterparts had > their problems too in conveying the information. > It is really a shame because this has turned out to be > the legacy for many American acupuncturists, many > misrepresented ideas and concepts that are still alive > and well in many schools in the states. The majority > of the fault, falls on the administration of many of > these schools for not even understanding what their > business is all about, they just want to open a school > and propagate what ever there idealistic romantic > ideas of East Asian medicine is, without any serious, > responsible, objective, research to what really is > going on, especially in it’s place of origin, not to > say that all schools are like that, because there are > some exceptional schools in the US, and they usually > are known only by the quality of their Teachers, but > sadly these are still very few compared to the amount > of schools of oriental medicine in the states . > Many students go into school thinking they are going > to get a complete education and transmission of > knowledge, but the truth is that many of the programs > don’t even have the adequate texts to really make it a > comprehensive education compared to their Chinese or > Japanese counter parts and that is largely due to the > lack of responsibly translated literature or the lack > of some schools not wanting to implement certain > responsibly translated texts because of cumbersome > language, that is just plain irresponsible and lazy. > Of course there is plurality in Chinese medicine but > teachers have to look at what are the standards of > practice from the place of origin and how are they > implemented in the place of origin. > This is a health care field, were patient’s pay their > practitioner usually from out of pocket for their > services, wouldn’t it be prudent and responsible of us > to learn and implement the standards of practice which > are proven to produce a consistent outcome. > It is our responsibility to learn as accurately as we > can, in order to reproduce the same results as our > Asian counterparts and in so doing provide a better > service to our patients. > This is not meant to upset any one; these are just my > thoughts from my experience as a student having > attended several schools in the US. > Respectfully > Gabriel Fuentes > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Zev, This is a major concern that if have seen as well at a school in the midwest. Courses and exams are watered down so that students do not fail. The school wants to make students happy as this leads to more financial aid. Maybe we can create a more diagramable layout of what a truly outstanding OM curricula should be like and then present it to the schools, ACAOM, etc as a gift to the profession. Anyway, my $0.02 worth. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: MSU >Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:32:35 -0800 > >I've been teaching Chinese medicine, with a focus on herbal medicine, >for sixteen years, based on the Jewish adage " if you know aleph, >teach aleph " . Also, one learns more by teaching. I am one of the >original generation of Western-born teachers and practitioners, and >my response to the challenge of learning accurate information about >Chinese medicine was to continue to study and practice, study and >practice. It was very humbling and sometimes an emotional upheaval >to realize that my knowledge base was sometimes inadequate, but I >would argue that I've always been able to inspire my students to >study more and more all the time, and to have 'fire in the belly' for >the subject matter. > >Perhaps the greatest revolution in my study and practice was the >publication of the " Practical Dictionary of " and the >collection of texts based on Wiseman terminology. It gave me a map >to enter the territory of medical Chinese language, and get a much >firmer grasp on the subject at hand. I think that it is very >important to have a basic grasp of an Asian medical language in order >to get a firm understanding of Chinese/Asian medicine. One cannot >rely on some of the accepted textbooks as the sole basis of practice, >as Gabriel has pointed out. > >In my early days as a student in the late 1970's, there were >basically two schools of thought, the " five element schools " , >basically the Worsley approach and the Nakazono Institute in Santa >Fe, N.M., and the so-called " eight-principle " schools, based on > " Outline of Chinese Acupuncture " , a highly simplified acupuncture >text actually written as a crash course for Western MD's. We were >thrilled when " Web That Has No Weaver " came out, it went much >further, along with stuff published by ACTCM in San Francisco. I >always saw the divide between the five elements and eight principle >schools as an artificial one, one of several damaging arguments in >the profession that has always weakened our standing. > >Nonetheless, we do need to have these discussions out in the open, >and I agree with Gabriel that there is in many CM schools a level of >intellectual laziness, low quality of teaching, and not very >selective student enrollment. There are many reasons and many >variables, but it leads to a lower quality profession than would be >ideal, and both patients and practitioners are often discouraged by >the results. I know of one school, for example, that refuses to use >any Wiseman-based texts or terminology, this is just inexcusable. >Also, only one school in America requires the study of medical >Chinese at the masters level (Seattle Institute of Oriental Medicine, >we can thank Dan Bensky for this), and one at the doctorate level >(Pacific College of Oriental Medicine/San Diego). > >We've gotta lotta livin' to do > > >On Dec 16, 2005, at 9:02 AM, gabe gabe wrote: > > > > > > > I have been reading some of these posts and I have to > > say that misunderstandings breed misunderstandings, > > the problem with much of this is the poor education > > that some of the teachers received in the state’s, in > > the early beginnings of this industry, they have just > > propagated false ideas for so many years that they > > have legitimize these made up concepts. I remember > > some of my teachers not being able to explain some > > concepts because of there incomplete education in > > basic theory, and they usually would resort to > > explaining it by means of a different theoretical > > model, without exploring the literature or asking > > their Chinese counterparts for answers for fear of > > loosing face not that their Chinese counterparts had > > their problems too in conveying the information. > > It is really a shame because this has turned out to be > > the legacy for many American acupuncturists, many > > misrepresented ideas and concepts that are still alive > > and well in many schools in the states. The majority > > of the fault, falls on the administration of many of > > these schools for not even understanding what their > > business is all about, they just want to open a school > > and propagate what ever there idealistic romantic > > ideas of East Asian medicine is, without any serious, > > responsible, objective, research to what really is > > going on, especially in it’s place of origin, not to > > say that all schools are like that, because there are > > some exceptional schools in the US, and they usually > > are known only by the quality of their Teachers, but > > sadly these are still very few compared to the amount > > of schools of oriental medicine in the states . > > Many students go into school thinking they are going > > to get a complete education and transmission of > > knowledge, but the truth is that many of the programs > > don’t even have the adequate texts to really make it a > > comprehensive education compared to their Chinese or > > Japanese counter parts and that is largely due to the > > lack of responsibly translated literature or the lack > > of some schools not wanting to implement certain > > responsibly translated texts because of cumbersome > > language, that is just plain irresponsible and lazy. > > Of course there is plurality in Chinese medicine but > > teachers have to look at what are the standards of > > practice from the place of origin and how are they > > implemented in the place of origin. > > This is a health care field, were patient’s pay their > > practitioner usually from out of pocket for their > > services, wouldn’t it be prudent and responsible of us > > to learn and implement the standards of practice which > > are proven to produce a consistent outcome. > > It is our responsibility to learn as accurately as we > > can, in order to reproduce the same results as our > > Asian counterparts and in so doing provide a better > > service to our patients. > > This is not meant to upset any one; these are just my > > thoughts from my experience as a student having > > attended several schools in the US. > > Respectfully > > Gabriel Fuentes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 The school wants to make students happy as this leads to more financial aid. >>>>> The schools allow the students to run them. I taught a course at one of the schools and refused to dumb down the course so students complained it was too difficult so they replaced me with an easier course. They demand so little of students these days its very sad. Oakland, CA 94609 - " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 <Chinese Medicine > Friday, December 16, 2005 1:58 PM Re: MSU > Zev, > > This is a major concern that if have seen as well at a school in the > midwest. Courses and exams are watered down so that students do not fail. > The school wants to make students happy as this leads to more financial > aid. > > Maybe we can create a more diagramable layout of what a truly outstanding > OM > curricula should be like and then present it to the schools, ACAOM, etc as > a > gift to the profession. > > Anyway, my $0.02 worth. > > Later > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > >> " " <zrosenbe >>Chinese Medicine >>Chinese Medicine >>Re: MSU >>Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:32:35 -0800 >> >>I've been teaching Chinese medicine, with a focus on herbal medicine, >>for sixteen years, based on the Jewish adage " if you know aleph, >>teach aleph " . Also, one learns more by teaching. I am one of the >>original generation of Western-born teachers and practitioners, and >>my response to the challenge of learning accurate information about >>Chinese medicine was to continue to study and practice, study and >>practice. It was very humbling and sometimes an emotional upheaval >>to realize that my knowledge base was sometimes inadequate, but I >>would argue that I've always been able to inspire my students to >>study more and more all the time, and to have 'fire in the belly' for >>the subject matter. >> >>Perhaps the greatest revolution in my study and practice was the >>publication of the " Practical Dictionary of " and the >>collection of texts based on Wiseman terminology. It gave me a map >>to enter the territory of medical Chinese language, and get a much >>firmer grasp on the subject at hand. I think that it is very >>important to have a basic grasp of an Asian medical language in order >>to get a firm understanding of Chinese/Asian medicine. One cannot >>rely on some of the accepted textbooks as the sole basis of practice, >>as Gabriel has pointed out. >> >>In my early days as a student in the late 1970's, there were >>basically two schools of thought, the " five element schools " , >>basically the Worsley approach and the Nakazono Institute in Santa >>Fe, N.M., and the so-called " eight-principle " schools, based on >> " Outline of Chinese Acupuncture " , a highly simplified acupuncture >>text actually written as a crash course for Western MD's. We were >>thrilled when " Web That Has No Weaver " came out, it went much >>further, along with stuff published by ACTCM in San Francisco. I >>always saw the divide between the five elements and eight principle >>schools as an artificial one, one of several damaging arguments in >>the profession that has always weakened our standing. >> >>Nonetheless, we do need to have these discussions out in the open, >>and I agree with Gabriel that there is in many CM schools a level of >>intellectual laziness, low quality of teaching, and not very >>selective student enrollment. There are many reasons and many >>variables, but it leads to a lower quality profession than would be >>ideal, and both patients and practitioners are often discouraged by >>the results. I know of one school, for example, that refuses to use >>any Wiseman-based texts or terminology, this is just inexcusable. >>Also, only one school in America requires the study of medical >>Chinese at the masters level (Seattle Institute of Oriental Medicine, >>we can thank Dan Bensky for this), and one at the doctorate level >>(Pacific College of Oriental Medicine/San Diego). >> >>We've gotta lotta livin' to do >> >> >>On Dec 16, 2005, at 9:02 AM, gabe gabe wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > I have been reading some of these posts and I have to >> > say that misunderstandings breed misunderstandings, >> > the problem with much of this is the poor education >> > that some of the teachers received in the state's, in >> > the early beginnings of this industry, they have just >> > propagated false ideas for so many years that they >> > have legitimize these made up concepts. I remember >> > some of my teachers not being able to explain some >> > concepts because of there incomplete education in >> > basic theory, and they usually would resort to >> > explaining it by means of a different theoretical >> > model, without exploring the literature or asking >> > their Chinese counterparts for answers for fear of >> > loosing face not that their Chinese counterparts had >> > their problems too in conveying the information. >> > It is really a shame because this has turned out to be >> > the legacy for many American acupuncturists, many >> > misrepresented ideas and concepts that are still alive >> > and well in many schools in the states. The majority >> > of the fault, falls on the administration of many of >> > these schools for not even understanding what their >> > business is all about, they just want to open a school >> > and propagate what ever there idealistic romantic >> > ideas of East Asian medicine is, without any serious, >> > responsible, objective, research to what really is >> > going on, especially in it's place of origin, not to >> > say that all schools are like that, because there are >> > some exceptional schools in the US, and they usually >> > are known only by the quality of their Teachers, but >> > sadly these are still very few compared to the amount >> > of schools of oriental medicine in the states . >> > Many students go into school thinking they are going >> > to get a complete education and transmission of >> > knowledge, but the truth is that many of the programs >> > don't even have the adequate texts to really make it a >> > comprehensive education compared to their Chinese or >> > Japanese counter parts and that is largely due to the >> > lack of responsibly translated literature or the lack >> > of some schools not wanting to implement certain >> > responsibly translated texts because of cumbersome >> > language, that is just plain irresponsible and lazy. >> > Of course there is plurality in Chinese medicine but >> > teachers have to look at what are the standards of >> > practice from the place of origin and how are they >> > implemented in the place of origin. >> > This is a health care field, were patient's pay their >> > practitioner usually from out of pocket for their >> > services, wouldn't it be prudent and responsible of us >> > to learn and implement the standards of practice which >> > are proven to produce a consistent outcome. >> > It is our responsibility to learn as accurately as we >> > can, in order to reproduce the same results as our >> > Asian counterparts and in so doing provide a better >> > service to our patients. >> > This is not meant to upset any one; these are just my >> > thoughts from my experience as a student having >> > attended several schools in the US. >> > Respectfully >> > Gabriel Fuentes >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 gabe gabe wrote: <snip> > Many students go into school thinking they are going to get a > complete education and transmission of knowledge, but the truth is > that many of the programs don’t even have the adequate texts to > really make it a comprehensive education Hi Gabe! Yes, it is true that there are some gaps. We are trying to fill in the blanks as we practice year after year. Keep up the faith and when you see an error or an inconsistency, for heaven's sake point it out. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Chinese Medicine , petetheisen <petetheisen@v...> wrote: > > Keep up the faith and when you > see an error or an inconsistency, for heaven's sake point it out. > I would add though that inconsistency comes with the territory in OM. It is the most frustrating part of OM for most students, i think; but it is the single thing i hear high-level teachers consistently decry about Westerners -- the lack of ability to think " fuzzy " , and lack of understanding that in OM phenomena is relational and situational in nature. If i had a dollar for every time i answered students' questions with " it depends... " , i'd proabably be driving a new lexus. It's not because i'm a bad teacher, either. (There are many other reasons i'm a bad teacher, but that's not one of them...) robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > >> > Maybe we can create a more diagramable layout of what a truly outstanding OM > curricula should be like and then present it to the schools, ACAOM, etc as a > gift to the profession. > Mike, i don't think curriculum is the problem... i've spent a lot of time over the last six months developing curriculum, writing syllabi, choosing textbooks, writing ACAOM documentation, etc. Writing curriculum is the easy part, implementation is much harder. IMHO we need to develop OM education as a viable profession, very few people have a combination of clinical experience, teaching skills, familarity with the English-language literature, etc, necessary for effective instruction. We also need to encourage people with a facility for language to go into translation and expand the knowledge base available in English. However there is not a lot of money in either of these which means that teachers come and go and much (especially classical) material goes untranslated. There's a lot more to be said, of course, but i'll leave it there for now. rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Robert, I understand what you are saying but respectfully disagree in that I think we need to start with a good curriculum (created with professional imput) and then fit into that instructors and faculty to carry it off. There are many so-called good faculty (in CM) that have no good idea on how to pull things off nor how to create a quality program. I think this is what is bringing down the professional image more than anything. We tend to worship Asian faculty but for what? Mostly this seems to be their greater western medical knowledge and treatment of modern disorders than the classics. I would, however, like to see more scholarly involvement and development but who will pay for this? Some schools have some scholarly individuals but most likely the individual will take this on themselves by getting more than one degree. We have several professionals who have dual degrees that are using them to contribute to the profession and dare I say they have become well-known as a result of this. Now that we have somewhat defined the problem the next step is to decide upon a remedy or course of action. What say you? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " kampo36 " <kampo36 >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: MSU >Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:42:27 -0000 > >Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " ><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > > >> > > Maybe we can create a more diagramable layout of what a truly >outstanding OM > > curricula should be like and then present it to the schools, ACAOM, etc >as a > > gift to the profession. > > > >Mike, i don't think curriculum is the problem... i've spent a lot of time >over the last six >months developing curriculum, writing syllabi, choosing textbooks, writing >ACAOM >documentation, etc. Writing curriculum is the easy part, implementation is >much harder. >IMHO we need to develop OM education as a viable profession, very few >people have a >combination of clinical experience, teaching skills, familarity with the >English-language >literature, etc, necessary for effective instruction. We also need to >encourage people with >a facility for language to go into translation and expand the knowledge >base available in >English. However there is not a lot of money in either of these which >means that teachers >come and go and much (especially classical) material goes untranslated. > >There's a lot more to be said, of course, but i'll leave it there for now. > >rh > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Pete et al, Or in the case of the acu program here in the midwest we see a complete disdain for many of the important texts (at least from a licensing exam point of view) and a creation of their own info without any regards. It would seem to be an income generator for the instructors as they create a series of handouts and sell these notes to the students. Sad, truly sad. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >petetheisen <petetheisen >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: MSU >Sat, 17 Dec 2005 06:05:12 -0500 > >gabe gabe wrote: ><snip> > > Many students go into school thinking they are going to get a > > complete education and transmission of knowledge, but the truth is > > that many of the programs don’t even have the adequate texts to > > really make it a comprehensive education > >Hi Gabe! > >Yes, it is true that there are some gaps. We are trying to fill in the >blanks as we practice year after year. Keep up the faith and when you >see an error or an inconsistency, for heaven's sake point it out. > >Regards, > >Pete > > > > > >Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, >http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust >accordingly. > >Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group >requires prior permission from the author. > >Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely >necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 kampo36 wrote: > Chinese Medicine , petetheisen > <petetheisen@v...> wrote: > >> Keep up the faith and when you see an error or an inconsistency, >> for heaven's sake point it out. >> > > I would add though that inconsistency comes with the territory in OM. > It is the most frustrating part of OM for most students, i think; but > it is the single thing i hear high-level teachers consistently decry > about Westerners -- the lack of ability to think " fuzzy " , and lack of > understanding that in OM phenomena is relational and situational in > nature. Hi Robert! But it would be nice to have a list of the inconsistencies, because these are the opportunities for research. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Dear colleagues In my humble opinion,I also think that most of the time the curriculum is not the problem, it’s the instructor’s knowledge of the subject matter and the teaching methodology they may use, and of course the language barrier for many instructors, that prohibits them from properly conveying the information. But the schools are the ones to blame for this, because they make the decisions and make the curriculum, and they also employ the instructors and buy the books. There exist many solutions already, but it seems that the administration of many of these schools wants to reinvent the wheel, so they go thru unnecessary growing pains. This is traditional Chinese medicine or Japanese or Korean, what ever, but these systems already have been functioning as an academic field in most Asian countries for almost 70 years, and not too many American school owners have taken the time to even visit and explore the educational system of these countries, after all we claim to practice their medicine, but we don’t implement the same steps, I am not saying that they are perfect either because they themselves have problems too, but I am saying, explore what’s out there and then make an informed decision. As far as texts are concerned we all know who are the individuals who are translating high quality material, either in Chinese or Japanese but still many of the schools don’t’ choose to implement these books in to their teaching curriculums. It wasn’t not even fifteen years ago were many schools just had notes of ill translated materials coming from different sources just compiled all together and being called Chinese medicine regardless were the information came from. We are not supporting the individuals who have gone thru enormous pains and struggles to bring a clear understanding of what really is Asian medicine and how it’s really practiced ,who also are producing high quality text, we need to acknowledge and give honor were honor is due, and stop excepting substandard text’s in to the schools curriculums. Respectfully Gabriel Fuentes --- mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > Robert, > > I understand what you are saying but respectfully > disagree in that I think > we need to start with a good curriculum (created > with professional imput) > and then fit into that instructors and faculty to > carry it off. > > There are many so-called good faculty (in CM) that > have no good idea on how > to pull things off nor how to create a quality > program. I think this is > what is bringing down the professional image more > than anything. We tend to > worship Asian faculty but for what? Mostly this > seems to be their greater > western medical knowledge and treatment of modern > disorders than the > classics. > > I would, however, like to see more scholarly > involvement and development but > who will pay for this? Some schools have some > scholarly individuals but > most likely the individual will take this on > themselves by getting more than > one degree. We have several professionals who have > dual degrees that are > using them to contribute to the profession and dare > I say they have become > well-known as a result of this. > > Now that we have somewhat defined the problem the > next step is to decide > upon a remedy or course of action. What say you? > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > " kampo36 " <kampo36 > > > Chinese Medicine > >Chinese Medicine > >Re: MSU > >Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:42:27 -0000 > > > >--- In > Chinese Medicine , " mike > Bowser " > ><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > Maybe we can create a more diagramable layout of > what a truly > >outstanding OM > > > curricula should be like and then present it to > the schools, ACAOM, etc > >as a > > > gift to the profession. > > > > > > >Mike, i don't think curriculum is the problem... > i've spent a lot of time > >over the last six > >months developing curriculum, writing syllabi, > choosing textbooks, writing > >ACAOM > >documentation, etc. Writing curriculum is the easy > part, implementation is > >much harder. > >IMHO we need to develop OM education as a viable > profession, very few > >people have a > >combination of clinical experience, teaching > skills, familarity with the > >English-language > >literature, etc, necessary for effective > instruction. We also need to > >encourage people with > >a facility for language to go into translation and > expand the knowledge > >base available in > >English. However there is not a lot of money in > either of these which > >means that teachers > >come and go and much (especially classical) > material goes untranslated. > > > >There's a lot more to be said, of course, but i'll > leave it there for now. > > > >rh > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Which texts do you mean are 'disdained'? The Wiseman influenced ones? On Dec 17, 2005, at 4:58 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > Or in the case of the acu program here in the midwest we see a > complete > disdain for many of the important texts (at least from a licensing > exam > point of view) and a creation of their own info without any > regards. It > would seem to be an income generator for the instructors as they > create a > series of handouts and sell these notes to the students. Sad, > truly sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > Now that we have somewhat defined the problem the next step is to decide > upon a remedy or course of action. What say you? > I'm not sure ACAOM or the majority of the colleges in the US see anything wrong with the current standards. Have you read through the ACAOM handbook? It's free to download at http://acaom.org/handbook.htm . ACAOM is not concerned so much with curriculum as that certain educational and administrative requirements be met; the individual curriculum is up to the college. Whether individual colleges would be willing to look at what you've got would be up to each of them. Most of the established schools have been tweaking their curriculum and sweating all the ACAOM stuff for years. You'd probably do best to find a school that is looking for candidacy and work with them; if you design a killer program with a thriving clinic, are able to recruit great faculty, and are able to bring it in with a realistic budget, then people will listen to you. Otherwise, if you're interested in working with ACAOM, you might apply to be a site visitor; just send them a resume. Last ACAOM meeting i attended they indicated that there was a need for more involvement on that end of things. robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Zev, That would be CAM, Giovanni and Bensky's Shanghai text. Not sure about the herbal texts but it appears that they do not use Bensky's texts for this either. The instructors both Asian and Caucasian have decided to create notes that they use and sell to the students instead of using texts. I do not have an issue with supplimenting text material but I do with replacing it. They have been teaching mainly zang-fu but fail to mention internal pathways, luo, divergent, or even extraordinary vessels. Everything has become a zang-fu pathology even those of blood stagnation or that have other causes. Let's just say it is an unimpressive program but has a great facility, which was a junior high in the 70's. I have reviewed a couple of these note packets and found them to be inaccurate and incomplete from my understanding. While I do not think that these English texts are the greatest, CAM is a very elementary text and poorly editted for example, we need to have some basics. What I am trying to point out is that we cannot get basic consensus with teaching at the basic level for licensure and until we have a good curricula to start with we will continue to see division. Some programs tend to have people with no idea of what is happending or options making the decisions to impliment such into their programs. I still think you could create a truly awesome program and should rethink creating a school. Just locate it close to the beach and I am there to help you. I would think it should include a strong pre-med component as well. Just my thoughts. Take care and have a happy holiday. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: MSU >Sun, 18 Dec 2005 07:49:38 -0800 > >Which texts do you mean are 'disdained'? The Wiseman influenced ones? > > >On Dec 17, 2005, at 4:58 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > Or in the case of the acu program here in the midwest we see a > > complete > > disdain for many of the important texts (at least from a licensing > > exam > > point of view) and a creation of their own info without any > > regards. It > > would seem to be an income generator for the instructors as they > > create a > > series of handouts and sell these notes to the students. Sad, > > truly sad. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > That would be CAM, Giovanni and Bensky's Shanghai text. Not sure about the > herbal texts but it appears that they do not use Bensky's texts for this > either. > > The instructors both Asian and Caucasian have decided to create notes that > they use and sell to the students instead of using texts. I do not have an > issue with supplimenting text material but I do with replacing it. > if this program is ACAOM-accredited then i would think this would have been cited as an area of concern specifically for criterion 8.4: " Appropriate level of instruction: The program must be appropriate to an institution of higher education offering a professional master's degree level program in acupuncture or Oriental medicine. The program must be sufficiently rigorous in breadth and depth and appropriate to the education and training of independent practitioners in the field of acupuncture and/or Oriental medicine. " and if it was not then i would ask ACAOM why not. rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Robert, I would be surmising here but the school does require a student to buy the texts but then does not use them but relies upon instructor notes. This is according to one student. ACAOM has had problems with this program and because it is attached to a chiro school, which has been teaching chiro's abbreviated acu courses, has tended to look the other way. Much has been mentioned to ACAOM about this conflict of interest and yet it continues. I would think that the fact this type of seminar is held on campus would make it a conflict and therefore a violation. If people only knew. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " kampo36 " <kampo36 >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: MSU >Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:47:50 -0000 > >Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " ><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > > That would be CAM, Giovanni and Bensky's Shanghai text. Not sure about >the > > herbal texts but it appears that they do not use Bensky's texts for this > > either. > > > > The instructors both Asian and Caucasian have decided to create notes >that > > they use and sell to the students instead of using texts. I do not have >an > > issue with supplimenting text material but I do with replacing it. > > > >if this program is ACAOM-accredited then i would think this would have been >cited as an >area of concern specifically for criterion 8.4: > > " Appropriate level of instruction: The program must be appropriate to an >institution of >higher education offering a professional master's degree level program in >acupuncture or >Oriental medicine. The program must be sufficiently rigorous in breadth >and depth and >appropriate to the education and training of independent practitioners in >the field of >acupuncture and/or Oriental medicine. " > >and if it was not then i would ask ACAOM why not. > >rh > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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