kidney failure now transplant contraindications

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony,

 

Have you found any literature that supports the wisdom of strengthening the

wei qi in a transplant patient? I have a new bone marrow transplant patient

with mild graft vs. host disease, and we are looking for more information before

proceeding with herbs and even acupuncture. She has just been weaned off her

immunosuppressant meds and steroids.

 

Thank you,

 

Tony Booker <bloomingherbal wrote:

Dear All,

 

I have been treating a kidney transplant patient on and off for about ten

years and have had no problems to date with using acupuncture or herbs. Although

the drugs are given as immunosupressants to avoid rejection, it is also

important that the patient has a good defense mechanism against infection. I

would think that by tonyfying the wei qi, which is primarily after all present

to protect against external pathogenic invasion, we are able to regulate the

immune system and protect against infection, without increasing the chances of

rejection of internal organs.

 

I have also found the use of Chinese Herbs to be helpful in the long term

management of chronic kidney failure, the use of da huang, in particular has

been shown to help reduce nitrogen levels in the blood and so ease the burden on

the kidneys.

 

Recent studies have also shown that ginkgo biloba can have a protective effect

against the kidney damaging effects of cyclosporines.

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

< wrote:

Hi All, ^ Jason

 

Jason davies wrote on 9 Nov 2005 :

> 2. If he has a transplant he will be given immunosuppressant

> medications to prevent him rejecting the new kidney. Is acupuncture

> contraindicated in this instance, given that it is generally accepted

> that acupuncture strengthens the immune system? i.e. will it be acting

> against the medication and therefore increase the chances of rejection?

> This raises the broader question of treatment for other conditions in

> which the immune system is overactive such as autoimmune conditions. My

> understanding has always been that treatment will regulate immune

> function i.e. stimulate when deficient and settle it when overactive,

> but in this instance with immunosuppressant medication being taken, I'm

> not sure if it would be a good thing. Advice would be much appreciated

> Thanks Jason

 

Apologies for the late reply; I have been snowed under with other work

and missed this.

 

I cannot be certain, but my gut feeling is to agree with what Jason said

in the first part of his thought: " My understanding has always been that

treatment will regulate immune function i.e. stimulate when deficient and

settle it when overactive "

 

There are many precedents for ambivalent (amphoteric or opposite)

effects of AP, but they tend to work " towards the middle " , i.e to have

homeostatic effects depending on the " body's needs " .

 

For example, ST36 can activate an atonic ST, yet calm ST spasm /

vomiting; LI04 can be used to stimulate the immune system (in

infections), or to suppress it (in allergies).

 

Comments from other listers?

 

Best regards,

 

 

Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

 

 

 

 

Ireland.

Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

 

 

 

" Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " -

Chinese Proverb

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Andrea Beth,

I've struggled with this issue for several years for the

following reasons; Chinese medicine was designed with a major

emphasis on correcting and maintaining equilbrium, enhancing zheng qi/

correct qi and eliminating xie qi/evil qi. Before the modern era, it

was impossible to transplant organs, or keep people alive by

suppressing immune systems. In other words, modern medicine in these

cases suppresses death, artificially keeping people alive with other

people's organs, or by suppressing normal immune responses which

otherwise would turn against the body and mind and kill the person.

It is safe to assume, I think, that autoimmune disorders are more

common in post-industrial societies, and that people just used to die

of organ failure.

Many of the cases described on these lists should be seen as

perplexing, as they are very complex and contradictory. In China,

these cases would be referred to the laozhongyi, the senior, most

experienced physicians, for treatment. Here they are at our doors

constantly, stretching our abilities.

While strategies for dealing with complex autoimmune diseases

such as lupus have been developed in China, I've seen precious

little on treating organ transplant patients or patients on

immunosuppressive drugs. I haven't had the time to do literature

searches in Chinese, perhaps, Tom or Eric can oblige us at some

point. I think even supplementing defense qi is a strategy one

should undertake with great caution.

 

 

On Jan 30, 2006, at 8:10 AM, wrote:

 

> Hi Tony,

>

> Have you found any literature that supports the wisdom of

> strengthening the wei qi in a transplant patient? I have a new

> bone marrow transplant patient with mild graft vs. host disease,

> and we are looking for more information before proceeding with

> herbs and even acupuncture. She has just been weaned off her

> immunosuppressant meds and steroids.

>

> Thank you,

>

>

> Tony Booker <bloomingherbal wrote:

> Dear All,

>

> I have been treating a kidney transplant patient on and off for

> about ten years and have had no problems to date with using

> acupuncture or herbs. Although the drugs are given as

> immunosupressants to avoid rejection, it is also important that the

> patient has a good defense mechanism against infection. I would

> think that by tonyfying the wei qi, which is primarily after all

> present to protect against external pathogenic invasion, we are

> able to regulate the immune system and protect against infection,

> without increasing the chances of rejection of internal organs.

>

> I have also found the use of Chinese Herbs to be helpful in the

> long term management of chronic kidney failure, the use of da

> huang, in particular has been shown to help reduce nitrogen levels

> in the blood and so ease the burden on the kidneys.

>

> Recent studies have also shown that ginkgo biloba can have a

> protective effect against the kidney damaging effects of

> cyclosporines.

>

> Best regards, >

>

< wrote:

> Hi All, ^ Jason

>

> Jason davies wrote on 9 Nov 2005 :

>> 2. If he has a transplant he will be given immunosuppressant

>> medications to prevent him rejecting the new kidney. Is acupuncture

>> contraindicated in this instance, given that it is generally accepted

>> that acupuncture strengthens the immune system? i.e. will it be

>> acting

>> against the medication and therefore increase the chances of

>> rejection?

>> This raises the broader question of treatment for other conditions in

>> which the immune system is overactive such as autoimmune

>> conditions. My

>> understanding has always been that treatment will regulate immune

>> function i.e. stimulate when deficient and settle it when overactive,

>> but in this instance with immunosuppressant medication being

>> taken, I'm

>> not sure if it would be a good thing. Advice would be much

>> appreciated

>> Thanks Jason

>

> Apologies for the late reply; I have been snowed under with other work

> and missed this.

>

> I cannot be certain, but my gut feeling is to agree with what Jason

> said

> in the first part of his thought: " My understanding has always been

> that

> treatment will regulate immune function i.e. stimulate when

> deficient and

> settle it when overactive "

>

> There are many precedents for ambivalent (amphoteric or opposite)

> effects of AP, but they tend to work " towards the middle " , i.e to have

> homeostatic effects depending on the " body's needs " .

>

> For example, ST36 can activate an atonic ST, yet calm ST spasm /

> vomiting; LI04 can be used to stimulate the immune system (in

> infections), or to suppress it (in allergies).

>

> Comments from other listers?

>

> Best regards,

>

>

> Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

>

>

>

>

> Ireland.

> Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

>

>

>

> " Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " -

> Chinese Proverb

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Z'ev, and nice to hear from you.

 

Are you saying you would avoid acupuncture treatment, as well as herbs? Would

you advise against all treatment without her doctor's consent and cooperation?

If you've developed a strategy for deciding whether or not to assist these

patients, what has worked for you? My patient's chief concerns are high

cholesterol, insomnia, frequent bouts of pneumonia, and osteoporosis.

Chemotherapy caused her to go into early menopause (early 30's).

 

I agree with your caveat for caution in boosting the defensive qi, even though

I have received some responses that Chinese medicine would " normalize " the

immune system. This sounds a little like careless reasoning to me.

 

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

Andrea Beth,

I've struggled with this issue for several years for the

following reasons; Chinese medicine was designed with a major

emphasis on correcting and maintaining equilbrium, enhancing zheng qi/

correct qi and eliminating xie qi/evil qi. Before the modern era, it

was impossible to transplant organs, or keep people alive by

suppressing immune systems. In other words, modern medicine in these

cases suppresses death, artificially keeping people alive with other

people's organs, or by suppressing normal immune responses which

otherwise would turn against the body and mind and kill the person.

It is safe to assume, I think, that autoimmune disorders are more

common in post-industrial societies, and that people just used to die

of organ failure.

Many of the cases described on these lists should be seen as

perplexing, as they are very complex and contradictory. In China,

these cases would be referred to the laozhongyi, the senior, most

experienced physicians, for treatment. Here they are at our doors

constantly, stretching our abilities.

While strategies for dealing with complex autoimmune diseases

such as lupus have been developed in China, I've seen precious

little on treating organ transplant patients or patients on

immunosuppressive drugs. I haven't had the time to do literature

searches in Chinese, perhaps, Tom or Eric can oblige us at some

point. I think even supplementing defense qi is a strategy one

should undertake with great caution.

 

 

On Jan 30, 2006, at 8:10 AM, wrote:

 

> Hi Tony,

>

> Have you found any literature that supports the wisdom of

> strengthening the wei qi in a transplant patient? I have a new

> bone marrow transplant patient with mild graft vs. host disease,

> and we are looking for more information before proceeding with

> herbs and even acupuncture. She has just been weaned off her

> immunosuppressant meds and steroids.

>

> Thank you,

>

>

> Tony Booker <bloomingherbal wrote:

> Dear All,

>

> I have been treating a kidney transplant patient on and off for

> about ten years and have had no problems to date with using

> acupuncture or herbs. Although the drugs are given as

> immunosupressants to avoid rejection, it is also important that the

> patient has a good defense mechanism against infection. I would

> think that by tonyfying the wei qi, which is primarily after all

> present to protect against external pathogenic invasion, we are

> able to regulate the immune system and protect against infection,

> without increasing the chances of rejection of internal organs.

>

> I have also found the use of Chinese Herbs to be helpful in the

> long term management of chronic kidney failure, the use of da

> huang, in particular has been shown to help reduce nitrogen levels

> in the blood and so ease the burden on the kidneys.

>

> Recent studies have also shown that ginkgo biloba can have a

> protective effect against the kidney damaging effects of

> cyclosporines.

>

> Best regards, >

>

< wrote:

> Hi All, ^ Jason

>

> Jason davies wrote on 9 Nov 2005 :

>> 2. If he has a transplant he will be given immunosuppressant

>> medications to prevent him rejecting the new kidney. Is acupuncture

>> contraindicated in this instance, given that it is generally accepted

>> that acupuncture strengthens the immune system? i.e. will it be

>> acting

>> against the medication and therefore increase the chances of

>> rejection?

>> This raises the broader question of treatment for other conditions in

>> which the immune system is overactive such as autoimmune

>> conditions. My

>> understanding has always been that treatment will regulate immune

>> function i.e. stimulate when deficient and settle it when overactive,

>> but in this instance with immunosuppressant medication being

>> taken, I'm

>> not sure if it would be a good thing. Advice would be much

>> appreciated

>> Thanks Jason

>

> Apologies for the late reply; I have been snowed under with other work

> and missed this.

>

> I cannot be certain, but my gut feeling is to agree with what Jason

> said

> in the first part of his thought: " My understanding has always been

> that

> treatment will regulate immune function i.e. stimulate when

> deficient and

> settle it when overactive "

>

> There are many precedents for ambivalent (amphoteric or opposite)

> effects of AP, but they tend to work " towards the middle " , i.e to have

> homeostatic effects depending on the " body's needs " .

>

> For example, ST36 can activate an atonic ST, yet calm ST spasm /

> vomiting; LI04 can be used to stimulate the immune system (in

> infections), or to suppress it (in allergies).

>

> Comments from other listers?

>

> Best regards,

>

>

> Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

>

>

>

>

> Ireland.

> Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

>

>

>

> " Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " -

> Chinese Proverb

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Andrea,

 

No sorry I haven't found any literature to support this. I have formed this

opinion mainly by talking to Chinese Doctors who have worked in Hospitals in

China with transplant patients. It seem to be the norm there to try and boost

the immune system to prevent infection.

 

Additionaly most modern immunosupressant drugs are quite selective in that

they only suppress the part of the immune system that is responsible for organ

rejection, the rest of the immune sytem remains intact. Kidney transplant

patients in the UK are generally encouraged to eat healthily and keep their

immune systems functioning well in order to avoid infection.

 

But I certainly agree with Z' ev to proceed with caution and with everyone on

board. With herbal medication I would avoid herbs that have been to shown to

raise T-lymphocyte activity.

 

Best wishes,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

Andrea Beth,

I've struggled with this issue for several years for the

following reasons; Chinese medicine was designed with a major

emphasis on correcting and maintaining equilbrium, enhancing zheng qi/

correct qi and eliminating xie qi/evil qi. Before the modern era, it

was impossible to transplant organs, or keep people alive by

suppressing immune systems. In other words, modern medicine in these

cases suppresses death, artificially keeping people alive with other

people's organs, or by suppressing normal immune responses which

otherwise would turn against the body and mind and kill the person.

It is safe to assume, I think, that autoimmune disorders are more

common in post-industrial societies, and that people just used to die

of organ failure.

Many of the cases described on these lists should be seen as

perplexing, as they are very complex and contradictory. In China,

these cases would be referred to the laozhongyi, the senior, most

experienced physicians, for treatment. Here they are at our doors

constantly, stretching our abilities.

While strategies for dealing with complex autoimmune diseases

such as lupus have been developed in China, I've seen precious

little on treating organ transplant patients or patients on

immunosuppressive drugs. I haven't had the time to do literature

searches in Chinese, perhaps, Tom or Eric can oblige us at some

point. I think even supplementing defense qi is a strategy one

should undertake with great caution.

 

 

On Jan 30, 2006, at 8:10 AM, wrote:

 

> Hi Tony,

>

> Have you found any literature that supports the wisdom of

> strengthening the wei qi in a transplant patient? I have a new

> bone marrow transplant patient with mild graft vs. host disease,

> and we are looking for more information before proceeding with

> herbs and even acupuncture. She has just been weaned off her

> immunosuppressant meds and steroids.

>

> Thank you,

>

>

> Tony Booker <bloomingherbal wrote:

> Dear All,

>

> I have been treating a kidney transplant patient on and off for

> about ten years and have had no problems to date with using

> acupuncture or herbs. Although the drugs are given as

> immunosupressants to avoid rejection, it is also important that the

> patient has a good defense mechanism against infection. I would

> think that by tonyfying the wei qi, which is primarily after all

> present to protect against external pathogenic invasion, we are

> able to regulate the immune system and protect against infection,

> without increasing the chances of rejection of internal organs.

>

> I have also found the use of Chinese Herbs to be helpful in the

> long term management of chronic kidney failure, the use of da

> huang, in particular has been shown to help reduce nitrogen levels

> in the blood and so ease the burden on the kidneys.

>

> Recent studies have also shown that ginkgo biloba can have a

> protective effect against the kidney damaging effects of

> cyclosporines.

>

> Best regards, >

>

< wrote:

> Hi All, ^ Jason

>

> Jason davies wrote on 9 Nov 2005 :

>> 2. If he has a transplant he will be given immunosuppressant

>> medications to prevent him rejecting the new kidney. Is acupuncture

>> contraindicated in this instance, given that it is generally accepted

>> that acupuncture strengthens the immune system? i.e. will it be

>> acting

>> against the medication and therefore increase the chances of

>> rejection?

>> This raises the broader question of treatment for other conditions in

>> which the immune system is overactive such as autoimmune

>> conditions. My

>> understanding has always been that treatment will regulate immune

>> function i.e. stimulate when deficient and settle it when overactive,

>> but in this instance with immunosuppressant medication being

>> taken, I'm

>> not sure if it would be a good thing. Advice would be much

>> appreciated

>> Thanks Jason

>

> Apologies for the late reply; I have been snowed under with other work

> and missed this.

>

> I cannot be certain, but my gut feeling is to agree with what Jason

> said

> in the first part of his thought: " My understanding has always been

> that

> treatment will regulate immune function i.e. stimulate when

> deficient and

> settle it when overactive "

>

> There are many precedents for ambivalent (amphoteric or opposite)

> effects of AP, but they tend to work " towards the middle " , i.e to have

> homeostatic effects depending on the " body's needs " .

>

> For example, ST36 can activate an atonic ST, yet calm ST spasm /

> vomiting; LI04 can be used to stimulate the immune system (in

> infections), or to suppress it (in allergies).

>

> Comments from other listers?

>

> Best regards,

>

>

> Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

>

>

>

>

> Ireland.

> Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

>

>

>

> " Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " -

> Chinese Proverb

>

>

>