Guest guest Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Hi Karen I'm sorry to say this, but (as you know) I originally trained in 5 Element acupuncture and have subsequently integrated that with TCM training. I cannot agree that diagnosis is rigorous, it is as Zev says, often subjective. In my own case, I have been diagnosed as a Fire CF, then a Wood CF (by the very teachers you were taught by) then Worsley himself said I was a Water CF and in the last 2 years I have been successfully treated as a Metal CF. I do believe that the most effective treatment has been on Metal. Heretical though this may be, I (and my practitioner) maintain that Worsley's diagnosis was incorrect. My husband was a patient during my training and he was diagnosed (by our teachers) as a Wood CF. Several years later when he was presented to a group of very experienced 5E practitioners, he was diagnosed as a Water CF - he definitely responds better to being treated on Water. I do think that 5 Element acupuncture is wonderful and can be very elegant, but it doesn't have all the answers and diagnosis can be very difficult. Fortunately when I struggle with the CF, I can fall back on TCM and so one way or the other I can provide an appropriate treatment. Most of the practitioners I know, however experienced, really struggle with Odour. Some pathogenic factors really disguise CSOE, such as Damp and Phlegm. In 5E acupuncture there is no place for PFs. I hasten to add that TCM isn't perfect and certainly doesn't hold all the answers either. Regards Susie Parkinson > karen <tryfan > Re: Re: screaming child > > It actually isn't, Zev, any more than it is anywhere else. Diagnosis is > rigorous - CSOE. And if you move away from 'causative' factor to > 'constitutional' factor, as is happening now, the definitions become > clearer and more comprehensive. I think it's worth remembering that we > 5E practitioners are so excited that Pete has been asking about this > medicine that we're trying to teach it by email, always a risky business. > > Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Susie, The Worsley method of diagnosis and treatment doesn't recognize external evils (pathogenic factors) or diseases per se, it is primarily a constitutional treatment. While constitutional factors can largely influence how people get sick, treating those factors constitutionally do not insure that the disease or external evil will be eliminated. What is interesting to me is that Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine also use five phase theory as a basis of constitutional diagnosis and therapy. However, the tridosha theory of vata, pitta and kapha, each of which is a combination of water, fire, earth, ether (instead of metal) and air, see constitutional factors as a fairly complex combination of phases/elements rather than singular ones. In my opinion and observation, rarely will you see someone who is just one phase or element in terms of causative factor or constitutional base. This would explain to me why different practitioners picked up on different CF's for you and your husband. As you say, there are sophisticated modes of diagnosis and treatment in this system, much of which are taken from the Nan Jing and Nei Jing. I see no reason why one cannot learn the Worsley system and then learn other tools for situations that will inevitably arise in practice beyond the limitations of this method. On Feb 3, 2006, at 2:30 PM, Susie Parkinson wrote: > Hi Karen > > I'm sorry to say this, but (as you know) I originally trained in 5 > Element > acupuncture and have subsequently integrated that with TCM > training. I > cannot agree that diagnosis is rigorous, it is as Zev says, often > subjective. In my own case, I have been diagnosed as a Fire CF, > then a Wood > CF (by the very teachers you were taught by) then Worsley himself > said I was > a Water CF and in the last 2 years I have been successfully treated > as a > Metal CF. I do believe that the most effective treatment has been > on Metal. > Heretical though this may be, I (and my practitioner) maintain that > Worsley's diagnosis was incorrect. My husband was a patient during my > training and he was diagnosed (by our teachers) as a Wood CF. > Several years > later when he was presented to a group of very experienced 5E > practitioners, > he was diagnosed as a Water CF - he definitely responds better to > being > treated on Water. I do think that 5 Element acupuncture is > wonderful and > can be very elegant, but it doesn't have all the answers and > diagnosis can > be very difficult. Fortunately when I struggle with the CF, I can > fall > back on TCM and so one way or the other I can provide an appropriate > treatment. Most of the practitioners I know, however experienced, > really > struggle with Odour. Some pathogenic factors really disguise CSOE, > such as > Damp and Phlegm. In 5E acupuncture there is no place for PFs. I > hasten to > add that TCM isn't perfect and certainly doesn't hold all the answers > either. > > Regards > > Susie Parkinson > >> karen <tryfan >> Re: Re: screaming child >> >> It actually isn't, Zev, any more than it is anywhere else. >> Diagnosis is >> rigorous - CSOE. And if you move away from 'causative' factor to >> 'constitutional' factor, as is happening now, the definitions become >> clearer and more comprehensive. I think it's worth remembering >> that we >> 5E practitioners are so excited that Pete has been asking about this >> medicine that we're trying to teach it by email, always a risky >> business. >> >> Karen > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > http:// > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Lets not full ourselves, you will find the same thing seeing 5 TCM experts in China seeing any complex case or even simple case. I know Zev and Bob say they get good agreement in pulses doing classes but i am still waiting to see a good blind study. There is a big difference in what people can do while training together and what happens to the same people in a month apart, we see this in many physical examination skills Oakland, CA 94609 - Susie Parkinson Chinese Medicine Friday, February 03, 2006 2:30 PM RE: 5 Element diagnosis Hi Karen I'm sorry to say this, but (as you know) I originally trained in 5 Element acupuncture and have subsequently integrated that with TCM training. I cannot agree that diagnosis is rigorous, it is as Zev says, often subjective. In my own case, I have been diagnosed as a Fire CF, then a Wood CF (by the very teachers you were taught by) then Worsley himself said I was a Water CF and in the last 2 years I have been successfully treated as a Metal CF. I do believe that the most effective treatment has been on Metal. Heretical though this may be, I (and my practitioner) maintain that Worsley's diagnosis was incorrect. My husband was a patient during my training and he was diagnosed (by our teachers) as a Wood CF. Several years later when he was presented to a group of very experienced 5E practitioners, he was diagnosed as a Water CF - he definitely responds better to being treated on Water. I do think that 5 Element acupuncture is wonderful and can be very elegant, but it doesn't have all the answers and diagnosis can be very difficult. Fortunately when I struggle with the CF, I can fall back on TCM and so one way or the other I can provide an appropriate treatment. Most of the practitioners I know, however experienced, really struggle with Odour. Some pathogenic factors really disguise CSOE, such as Damp and Phlegm. In 5E acupuncture there is no place for PFs. I hasten to add that TCM isn't perfect and certainly doesn't hold all the answers either. Regards Susie Parkinson > karen <tryfan > Re: Re: screaming child > > It actually isn't, Zev, any more than it is anywhere else. Diagnosis is > rigorous - CSOE. And if you move away from 'causative' factor to > 'constitutional' factor, as is happening now, the definitions become > clearer and more comprehensive. I think it's worth remembering that we > 5E practitioners are so excited that Pete has been asking about this > medicine that we're trying to teach it by email, always a risky business. > > Karen Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Not my experience, Alon. Design a study if you like, I'll be interested. On Feb 3, 2006, at 4:33 PM, wrote: > Lets not full ourselves, you will find the same thing seeing 5 TCM > experts in China seeing any complex case or even simple case. I > know Zev and Bob say they get good agreement in pulses doing > classes but i am still waiting to see a good blind study. There is > a big difference in what people can do while training together and > what happens to the same people in a month apart, we see this in > many physical examination skills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 The design is simple, take 6 practitioners and about 30 patients have the patient go to 6 different rooms and have the practitioners right down their findings. This will give you enough statistical power to analyze. Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, February 03, 2006 4:39 PM Re: RE: 5 Element diagnosis Not my experience, Alon. Design a study if you like, I'll be interested. On Feb 3, 2006, at 4:33 PM, wrote: > Lets not full ourselves, you will find the same thing seeing 5 TCM > experts in China seeing any complex case or even simple case. I > know Zev and Bob say they get good agreement in pulses doing > classes but i am still waiting to see a good blind study. There is > a big difference in what people can do while training together and > what happens to the same people in a month apart, we see this in > many physical examination skills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Zev If you get 6 practitioners from your school we can get 30 random patients from the clinic and i will be happy to come down and monitor. Lets see what happens. Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, February 03, 2006 5:38 PM Re: RE: 5 Element diagnosis The design is simple, take 6 practitioners and about 30 patients have the patient go to 6 different rooms and have the practitioners right down their findings. This will give you enough statistical power to analyze. Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, February 03, 2006 4:39 PM Re: RE: 5 Element diagnosis Not my experience, Alon. Design a study if you like, I'll be interested. On Feb 3, 2006, at 4:33 PM, wrote: > Lets not full ourselves, you will find the same thing seeing 5 TCM > experts in China seeing any complex case or even simple case. I > know Zev and Bob say they get good agreement in pulses doing > classes but i am still waiting to see a good blind study. There is > a big difference in what people can do while training together and > what happens to the same people in a month apart, we see this in > many physical examination skills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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