Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , petetheisen <petetheisen wrote: > > mike Bowser wrote: > > Hi Mike! > > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day: > > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf> > > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study and > other experience based practices as well and will for the foreseeable > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is research > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for the time > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it on my web > site. > > Regards, > > Pete > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. Interesting > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be leaning the > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's and > > insurance companies. > <snip> > >> Hang on in there! > >> > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we don't > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will never be > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality > >> Western acupuncture research > <snip> > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > >> compulsory > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 But could we replicate it in our own humble clinics Sue --- In Chinese Medicine , " acupuncturebeverlyhill s " <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian > medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross > Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show > things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm > and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses. > > Kelvin > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , petetheisen > <petetheisen@> wrote: > > > > mike Bowser wrote: > > > > Hi Mike! > > > > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day: > > > > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf> > > > > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study and > > other experience based practices as well and will for the foreseeable > > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is research > > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for the time > > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it on my web > > site. > > > > Regards, > > > > Pete > > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. Interesting > > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be leaning the > > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's and > > > insurance companies. > > <snip> > > >> Hang on in there! > > >> > > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture > > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based > > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we don't > > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will never be > > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality > > >> Western acupuncture research > > <snip> > > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese Medicine at > > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > > >> compulsory > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere as usual Oakland, CA 94609 - acupuncturebeverlyhills Chinese Medicine Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea) One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , petetheisen <petetheisen wrote: > > mike Bowser wrote: > > Hi Mike! > > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day: > > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf> > > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study and > other experience based practices as well and will for the foreseeable > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is research > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for the time > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it on my web > site. > > Regards, > > Pete > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. Interesting > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be leaning the > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's and > > insurance companies. > <snip> > >> Hang on in there! > >> > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we don't > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will never be > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality > >> Western acupuncture research > <snip> > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > >> compulsory > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 It's would be a big step forward if it worked. Early detection of breast cancer, and maybe John Ridder would have been diagnosed with an aortic aneurysm instead of a heart attack. Is it worth the risk to test it scientifically? He has a lot invested in his pulse diagnosis so you need to understand that if the test results shows no real correlations he would take a huge loss to his income and identity. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere as usual > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM > Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea) > > > One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian > medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross > Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show > things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm > and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses. > > Kelvin > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , petetheisen > <petetheisen@> wrote: > > > > mike Bowser wrote: > > > > Hi Mike! > > > > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day: > > > > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf> > > > > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study and > > other experience based practices as well and will for the foreseeable > > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is research > > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for the time > > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it on my web > > site. > > > > Regards, > > > > Pete > > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. Interesting > > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be leaning the > > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's and > > > insurance companies. > > <snip> > > >> Hang on in there! > > >> > > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture > > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based > > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we don't > > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will never be > > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality > > >> Western acupuncture research > > <snip> > > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese Medicine at > > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > > >> compulsory > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 In a message dated 3/22/2006 4:55:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, writes: From another angle, it is possible, as the Shen-Hammer program demonstrates, for any humble practitioner, with a modicum of ability, a large dose of study, person-to-person training (e.g. the Shen-Hammer system), and years if not decades of arduous pratice to reliably demonstrate such diagnostic skill. # # # It is a relatively easy matter to set up a study to determine interexaminer reliability. This is something that even a group of students could do, if they had just five experts. Because such a study is easy, the lack of one may be a clear signal to some scientists outside our field that there could be some intellectual dishonesty going on in this field. After call, the diagnosis of disease (or really anything) from feeling the pulse seems a fantastic claim. You could start with determining if five people could agree that one person has a " slippery " quality to the pulse. Eventually, with the help of a local cardiologist, you might get to a study where a qualified examiner could be tested to see if he could identify people with specific heart or cirulatory problems. From there, on the other WM specialists. Honestly, if you could find people who could manually diagnose breast cancer, the insurance companies would fall all over themselves sending people to you, as this test would be incredibly cheaper than the way it's done now. On the other hand, again, it would be great to know that five experts could agree on five or ten different qualities consistently. We did an interexaminer reliability test in a chiropractic school and unfortunately some of the research was suppressed rapidly when it became apparent that one of the systems used by a significant donor to the school's endowment had random results. I would ask Kelvin if it is more important to preserve Dr. Hammer's income and prestige or more important for practitioners to know whether or not all this talk of pulse quality is just so much perverse wind. Further, I would wonder why practitioners or students would care to pay for a seminar at which what they thought they were learning was in fact, not teachable. You would not need Dr. Hammer's permission or participation. You would just need about five people who studied under him, as well as perhaps five other expert practitioners (five years in practice?) If the system takes 30 years to master, maybe it's better is we simply got more people working with less difficult and perhaps more accurate (in aggregate) methods of dx. Not meaning to be offensive, just some thoughts Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 At 05:00 PM 3/21/2006, Kelvinwrote: >One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian >medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross >Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show >things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm >and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses. Sue's question points to a fundamental difference between demonstrable art and a blind side to the current state of science, in it's attachment to objectified or impersonal, mechanical process. Similarly, Paul Unschuld (at more than one place in the volume 1 of the SuWen series) insists that the human body is minimally expressive, in an objective sense. He refers to temperature, cardiac and respiratory rate, and a couple of other trivial measures (compared with what a pulse master can measure). Reading this (and I recall hearing him mention this in a workshop, and questioning him him along these lines) I immediately thought of what I know people like Dr. Shen, Dr. Hammer, etc. were/are capable of reliably diagnosing. If I recall, his answer was along the lines of art vs science. From another angle, it is possible, as the Shen-Hammer program demonstrates, for any humble practitioner, with a modicum of ability, a large dose of study, person-to-person training (e.g. the Shen-Hammer system), and years if not decades of arduous pratice to reliably demonstrate such diagnostic skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 At 07:21 PM 3/21/2006, Alon Marcuswrote: >I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere as usual Tangentially related: Leon, at least at one point, was interested in and believed a mechanical system could replicate the finger sensitivity of his system with regard to assessing the depths. He mentioned this on a couple of occasions to me as I had a background in computer technology (in particular in a project ca. 1970 doing digital brainwave feedback). I was skeptical due to the considerable problems I recall in the area of calibration of any mechanical-digital input system. That is, such a system would have to accomodate the differences of pressure and distance needed to probe the relative depths in the range between a thin-skinned,smallish and delicate person's wrist (say a balerinna), and that of a thick-skinned, massive and robust person's (say a football lineman). PS There was a project sometime ago out of the Pine Tree Clinic in Marin, a digital system aimed at decoding / standardizing pulse reading for didactic purposes. Even some purported research, which demonstrated a some correlation between the machine's and an expert's evaluations. A minor methodological problem was that it was also an " expert " running and calibrating the machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 As quality is much more subjective and meanings are sometimes varied, how about initial focus upon strength or weakness of the positions and who that related to symptoms/signs? Just an idea. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >DrGRPorter >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea) >Wed, 22 Mar 2006 06:30:09 EST > > >In a message dated 3/22/2006 4:55:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, > writes: > >From another angle, it is possible, as the Shen-Hammer program >demonstrates, for any humble practitioner, with a modicum of ability, >a large dose of study, person-to-person training (e.g. the >Shen-Hammer system), and years if not decades of arduous pratice to >reliably demonstrate such diagnostic skill. > > > > ># # # > >It is a relatively easy matter to set up a study to determine interexaminer >reliability. This is something that even a group of students could do, if >they > had just five experts. Because such a study is easy, the lack of one may >be >a clear signal to some scientists outside our field that there could be >some >intellectual dishonesty going on in this field. After call, the diagnosis >of >disease (or really anything) from feeling the pulse seems a fantastic >claim. >You could start with determining if five people could agree that one >person >has a " slippery " quality to the pulse. Eventually, with the help of a >local >cardiologist, you might get to a study where a qualified examiner could be >tested to see if he could identify people with specific heart or cirulatory >problems. From there, on the other WM specialists. > >Honestly, if you could find people who could manually diagnose breast >cancer, the insurance companies would fall all over themselves sending >people to >you, as this test would be incredibly cheaper than the way it's done now. >On the > other hand, again, it would be great to know that five experts could >agree >on five or ten different qualities consistently. > >We did an interexaminer reliability test in a chiropractic school and >unfortunately some of the research was suppressed rapidly when it became >apparent >that one of the systems used by a significant donor to the school's >endowment >had random results. > >I would ask Kelvin if it is more important to preserve Dr. Hammer's income >and prestige or more important for practitioners to know whether or not all >this talk of pulse quality is just so much perverse wind. Further, I would >wonder why practitioners or students would care to pay for a seminar at >which what >they thought they were learning was in fact, not teachable. > >You would not need Dr. Hammer's permission or participation. You would just >need about five people who studied under him, as well as perhaps five other >expert practitioners (five years in practice?) > >If the system takes 30 years to master, maybe it's better is we simply got >more people working with less difficult and perhaps more accurate (in >aggregate) methods of dx. > >Not meaning to be offensive, just some thoughts > >Guy Porter > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Some out there might be interested to know that there is research into various aspects of OM. Here is a link that might help us better explain and demonstrate ourselves https://www.cihs.edu/whatsnew/ami_info.asp Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > < >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea) >Wed, 22 Mar 2006 03:05:56 -0800 > >At 07:21 PM 3/21/2006, Alon Marcuswrote: > >I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere as >usual > >Tangentially related: > >Leon, at least at one point, was interested in and believed a >mechanical system could replicate the finger sensitivity of his >system with regard to assessing the depths. He mentioned this on a >couple of occasions to me as I had a background in computer >technology (in particular in a project ca. 1970 doing digital >brainwave feedback). I was skeptical due to the considerable problems >I recall in the area of calibration of any mechanical-digital input >system. That is, such a system would have to accomodate the >differences of pressure and distance needed to probe the relative >depths in the range between a thin-skinned,smallish and delicate >person's wrist (say a balerinna), and that of a thick-skinned, >massive and robust person's (say a football lineman). > > > >PS There was a project sometime ago out of the Pine Tree Clinic in >Marin, a digital system aimed at decoding / standardizing pulse >reading for didactic purposes. Even some purported research, which >demonstrated a some correlation between the machine's and an expert's >evaluations. A minor methodological problem was that it was also an > " expert " running and calibrating the machine. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Kelvin The problem is not with him but with us as a profession that we do not demand to see more proof for anything. As an individual he may have had some self reinforcing experiences and therefor probably truly believes in his system. But until we can really demonstrate statistical accuracy i do not believe we can promote such systems as fact. Oakland, CA 94609 - acupuncturebeverlyhills Chinese Medicine Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:16 PM Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea) It's would be a big step forward if it worked. Early detection of breast cancer, and maybe John Ridder would have been diagnosed with an aortic aneurysm instead of a heart attack. Is it worth the risk to test it scientifically? He has a lot invested in his pulse diagnosis so you need to understand that if the test results shows no real correlations he would take a huge loss to his income and identity. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere as usual > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM > Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea) > > > One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian > medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross > Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show > things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm > and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses. > > Kelvin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , petetheisen > <petetheisen@> wrote: > > > > mike Bowser wrote: > > > > Hi Mike! > > > > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day: > > > > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf> > > > > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study and > > other experience based practices as well and will for the foreseeable > > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is research > > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for the time > > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it on my web > > site. > > > > Regards, > > > > Pete > > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. Interesting > > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be leaning the > > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's and > > > insurance companies. > > <snip> > > >> Hang on in there! > > >> > > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture > > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based > > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we don't > > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will never be > > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality > > >> Western acupuncture research > > <snip> > > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese Medicine at > > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > > >> compulsory > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 This I know, look what happened to iridology after they tested it againts patients with specific diseases. Have you asked Ross Rosen? Kelvin <alonmarcus wrote: Kelvin The problem is not with him but with us as a profession that we do not demand to see more proof for anything. As an individual he may have had some self reinforcing experiences and therefor probably truly believes in his system. But until we can really demonstrate statistical accuracy i do not believe we can promote such systems as fact. Oakland, CA 94609 - acupuncturebeverlyhills Chinese Medicine Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:16 PM Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea) It's would be a big step forward if it worked. Early detection of breast cancer, and maybe John Ridder would have been diagnosed with an aortic aneurysm instead of a heart attack. Is it worth the risk to test it scientifically? He has a lot invested in his pulse diagnosis so you need to understand that if the test results shows no real correlations he would take a huge loss to his income and identity. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere as usual > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM > Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea) > > > One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian > medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross > Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show > things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm > and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses. > > Kelvin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , petetheisen > <petetheisen@> wrote: > > > > mike Bowser wrote: > > > > Hi Mike! > > > > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day: > > > > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf> > > > > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study and > > other experience based practices as well and will for the foreseeable > > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is research > > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for the time > > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it on my web > > site. > > > > Regards, > > > > Pete > > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. Interesting > > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be leaning the > > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's and > > > insurance companies. > > <snip> > > >> Hang on in there! > > >> > > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture > > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based > > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we don't > > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will never be > > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality > > >> Western acupuncture research > > <snip> > > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese Medicine at > > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > > >> compulsory > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Kelvin, What was learned in iridology test? Mike L. Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Simon (1979)(including Bernard Jenson, Americas leading iridology expert) unable to find kidney disease in patients with kidney disease. Cockburn (1981)No correlation to people with certain diseases Knischild (1988) found GB disease equally in people with GB disease and those without. I'm sure there is more if anyone wants to add some. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , Mike Liaw <mikeliaw wrote: > > Kelvin, > > What was learned in iridology test? > > Mike L. > > > > > > Mail > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Just to be tangential, as usual. Has anyone else read about how they are using dogs to " sniff " out breast cancer? Im not making this up, apparantly the dogs can be trained to detect metabolic changes that effect the smell of a patients breath in breast cancer in the early stages. They are trying to use this info to create an " artificial nose " , if you will. The mind boggles. Maybe they should try pigs for greater smell acuity. :-) --- In Chinese Medicine , " acupuncturebeverlyhill s " <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > It's would be a big step forward if it worked. Early detection of > breast cancer, and maybe John Ridder would have been diagnosed with an > aortic aneurysm instead of a heart attack. > Is it worth the risk to test it scientifically? He has a lot invested > in his pulse diagnosis so you need to understand that if the test > results shows no real correlations he would take a huge loss to his > income and identity. > > > Kelvin > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus DOM " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere > as usual > > > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > - > > acupuncturebeverlyhills > > Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM > > Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea) > > > > > > One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian > > medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross > > Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show > > things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm > > and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses. > > > > Kelvin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , petetheisen > > <petetheisen@> wrote: > > > > > > mike Bowser wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mike! > > > > > > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day: > > > > > > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf> > > > > > > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study and > > > other experience based practices as well and will for the > foreseeable > > > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is > research > > > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for > the time > > > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it > on my web > > > site. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Pete > > > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. Interesting > > > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be > leaning the > > > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's and > > > > insurance companies. > > > <snip> > > > >> Hang on in there! > > > >> > > > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture > > > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based > > > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we don't > > > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will > never be > > > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality > > > >> Western acupuncture research > > > <snip> > > > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese > Medicine at > > > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > > > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & > 2' as > > > >> compulsory > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 The cancer dogs have been around for 20 years and it seems that every 5 years or so it shhows up on TV. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " leabun1 " <leabun1 wrote: > > Just to be tangential, as usual. Has anyone else read about how they > are using dogs to " sniff " out breast cancer? Im not making this up, > apparantly the dogs can be trained to detect metabolic changes that > effect the smell of a patients breath in breast cancer in the early > stages. They are trying to use this info to create an " artificial > nose " , if you will. The mind boggles. Maybe they should try pigs for > greater smell acuity. :-) > > --- In > Chinese Medicine , " acupuncturebeverlyhill > s " <acupuncturebeverlyhills@> wrote: > > > > It's would be a big step forward if it worked. Early detection of > > breast cancer, and maybe John Ridder would have been diagnosed > with an > > aortic aneurysm instead of a heart attack. > > Is it worth the risk to test it scientifically? He has a lot > invested > > in his pulse diagnosis so you need to understand that if the test > > results shows no real correlations he would take a huge loss to his > > income and identity. > > > > > > Kelvin > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus > DOM " > > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > > > I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got > nowhere > > as usual > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > > > > - > > > acupuncturebeverlyhills > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM > > > Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea) > > > > > > > > > One thing might be really interesting to try and will give > Asian > > > medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, > Ross > > > Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis > to show > > > things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic > aneurysm > > > and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the > diagnoses. > > > > > > Kelvin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > petetheisen > > > <petetheisen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > mike Bowser wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Mike! > > > > > > > > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day: > > > > > > > > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf> > > > > > > > > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case > study and > > > > other experience based practices as well and will for the > > foreseeable > > > > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that > is > > research > > > > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for > > the time > > > > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post > it > > on my web > > > > site. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Pete > > > > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. > Interesting > > > > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be > > leaning the > > > > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to > HMO's and > > > > > insurance companies. > > > > <snip> > > > > >> Hang on in there! > > > > >> > > > > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in > Acupuncture > > > > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence > based > > > > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If > we don't > > > > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will > > never be > > > > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor > quality > > > > >> Western acupuncture research > > > > <snip> > > > > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese > > Medicine at > > > > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much > criticism > > > > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 > & > > 2' as > > > > >> compulsory > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > and > > adjust accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > outside > > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > absolutely necessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 I have a patient now whose dog started acting strangely whenever he went to the bathroom. Apparently she would sniff around and then stand and stare at him. He went to the Dr. because of her behaviour and was diagnosed with prostate cancer. He was the patient I wrote into the group about a couple of weeks ago re;post surgical impotence. Marylee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Dear Chris: Thanks for acknowledging my contributions. I have a few points to raise in response to yours. I am enclosing portions of your post in quotes, since that blue line on aol doesn't come across when sending to the group. " Leon Hammer has related a case where he detected a serious, if perhaps subtle disturbance in " liver " functionality ... but some process which could/would lead to something comparably serious, AND the timeframe. " Without the extensive training that you or other members of this group have had, even I have had similar experiences. In order to determine if this experience is significant, it would be important to look at all the myriad things that did not get detected. Thus, this one experience (that perhaps most have had at one time or another) is dramatic and might point us in the wrong direction regarding the conclusion we take from it. " Breast Cancer " , " aortic aneurysm " , etc. these are biomedical abstractions. Yes, objectively " real " , mechanically indisputable, of course, but abstracted from the complex of etiological possibilities (prevention), as well as from the complex of management/cure/healing both areas which encompass human lifestyle, belief systems; constitutional, developmental; emotional, sensory, cognitive, and " spiritual " interrelating dimensions of human behavior. " Clearly an aortic aneurysm is not an abstraction. Niether is a large lump in a breast. In the continuum of things regarded as " real " v " abstract, " belief systems, sprituality and cognition are far more abstract. This isn't to say that they cannot be explored, but rather that we should be careful with our words since we're on shaky ground, so to speak. " 2) Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:54:22 0800, " Alon Marcus DOM " <alonmarcus wrote: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:54:22 -0800 >The problem is not with him but with us as a profession that we do not demand to see more proof for anything. As an individual he may have had some self-reinforcing experiences and therefor probably truly believes in his system. But until we can really demonstrate statistical accuracy i do not believe we can promote such systems as fact. Tautology: " Statistical accuracy " and " fact " ? Fact, in the sense of indisputable refers to data, but the usage above implies meaning. But meaning is invariably interpretation, is what we hold as " truth " (not as non-contradiction, but as adequacy of proof). (Look at the multitude of re-interpretations of experimental data ( " facts " ) across recent decades, which have resulted in revised conclusions.) " I find no prognostic data in CM. Everything I have read that has been credible is purely descriptive. And that is great for a discipline which seeks to add meaning to patient's lives, and do all the more humanistic functions you relate in your post. Most all of that is missing from WM and it's inclusion in CM ala Kaptchuk may be the saving grace for the profession. I took the meaning of " statistical fact " in Alon's post to mean a fact which has been substantiated with some commonly accepted statistical study. No matter what you want to say about the inadequacy of RCT's with acupuncture protocols, interexaminer reliability studies don't have those drawback. You put five experts in a room. You run 50 subjects through the experiment and you can tell how much these people are agreeing with each other. You can use a simple chi-square analysis, one of the simplest techniques in statistics. If the null hypothesis, that there is no agreement between experts, is true, then the concept of pulse diagnosis has to be revised to indicate that this is a practice that does something other than help with an objective CM diagnosis. Lastly, the only thing that might irritate me personally would be an implication that I or others are in cages while you roam free. On the other hand, there is a Buddhist proverb that says " To the beginner there are many possibilities. To the expert there are few. " By this I don't mean to imply you aren't an expert and certainly don't mean to imply that I am. But there seems to be a distinct speaking in this group towards letting everyone " go their own way " and that every opinion or proposition is okay if everyone has their own truth. That's not science or even prudent practice. Guy Porter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 1) Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:00:06 -0000 Kevin <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: >One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses. To my understanding, the claim (of the S-H pulse system and others) is not that mastery in pulse reading is equivalent, or intended to pin-pointing western Dx, but rather a deep and reliable detection of physiology and pathology in terms of jing, yin/yang, qi/blood/fluids, channels and zangfu dynamics and not just at the abstract level that many of us know from TCM school training, but from observation and experience of the reality symbolized by these terms. I.e. as a perspective on the human organism and its eu-/dys-functioning. Leon Hammer has related a case where he detected a serious, if perhaps subtle disturbance in " liver " functionality in a patient's pulse, and advised the patient to have his physician check out, or refer out for thorough hepatic evaluation. (Apparently, Leon was not treating as a Western primary care physician.) Test results were negative (in terms of the status quo of biomedical testing, probably a decade or so ago); the PCP had a good laugh over it. A few years later, the patient died of liver cancer. The spouse sued, and, of course, lost the case. My understanding is that Leon did not claim to pinpoint or predict liver cancer, but some process which could/would lead to something comparably serious, AND the timeframe. He does, I find, at times posit more or less close matches between what the pulse reveals to him and biomedical diagnoses. (In my memory most notably the pattern for imminent CVA, which, BTW, might be a good candidate for a clinical trial along the lines Kevin suggests). He (Leon) has lived that (physician) perspective across a long career. But also has long and deep experience from the TAM (Traditional Asian Medicine, to borrow a phrase from the FDA) frame of understanding; AND can see the parallels and convergences between them. The bottom line in both (all!) medical systems, well-understood and well-applied, is to reveal and access realities of the human condition. The goal, purpose, I believe for all of us, is to probe this; the Dx system, whatever flavor it may be, is secondary. But it is my understanding that Leon does not confound the two systems, nor claim that the S-H pulse system is intended to pin-pointing ICD diagnoses. " Breast Cancer " , " aortic aneurysm " , etc. these are biomedical abstractions. Yes, objectively " real " , mechanically indisputable, of course, but abstracted from the complex of etiological possibilities (prevention), as well as from the complex of management/cure/healing both areas which encompass human lifestyle, belief systems; constitutional, developmental; emotional, sensory, cognitive, and " spiritual " interrelating dimensions of human behavior. Note: with a range of examples such as the aneurysm, and advanced stage cancers, the treatment options are largely clear (though not absolutely), i.e. surgery, chemo, radiation etc. I suggest expanding Kevin's terms to include more things like diabetes, other auto-immune syndromes, IBS, COPD, and the like largely the functional spectrum (i.e. some large percentage, I recall, something like 70% of all inpatient medical cases). Then the issues I point to are more significant -- where did it really come from (how to prevent it), and what are the possibilities for effective treatment, medically and by means of the patients own powers (lifestyle, intention, etc.) Dr. John Shen (as in Shen-Hammer) would invariably (at the lectures I attended) begin with and repeatedly stress that the good Chinese doctor's task was not (first and foremost) recognizing and curing patent (advanced/organic) conditions; but rather working with the patient to understand how health/illness relates to the whole of his/her life, and furthering the practical cultivation of that awareness to enhance life. Most of us have probably studied TaiJiChuan, GiGong, WuShu, etc., and been taught: Jing (bones, blood and guts), Qi (functional behavior), and Shen (the proprioception of living), AND that Shen/awareness is the end, goal and purpose. 2) Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:54:22 0800, " Alon Marcus DOM " <alonmarcus wrote: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:54:22 -0800 >The problem is not with him but with us as a profession that we do not demand to see more proof for anything. As an individual he may have had some self-reinforcing experiences and therefor probably truly believes in his system. But until we can really demonstrate statistical accuracy i do not believe we can promote such systems as fact. Tautology: " Statistical accuracy " and " fact " ? Fact, in the sense of indisputable refers to data, but the usage above implies meaning. But meaning is invariably interpretation, is what we hold as " truth " (not as non-contradiction, but as adequacy of proof). (Look at the multitude of re-interpretations of experimental data ( " facts " ) across recent decades, which have resulted in revised conclusions.) Chinese language, consciousness, awareness, culture constitutes a distinct " reality " relative to the western correlates. They are two disparate reality systems. Many, most individuals (in the CM/TCM field) are anchored (or " caged " , see below) in one or the other. Some few master both. But those that truly do, know that they are distinct perspectives; one can shift between the two, they can be overlaid, mined for convergences, parallels, etc., but remain distinct. Just like when one is fluent in both English and Chinese and can switch between the two. Short of a neurological disorder, one does not mish-mash the two languages together. One can translate back and forth, invariably with interpretation. The disparity appears, for instance, as usually some number of Chinese characters (at least in classics) translates into say 2 to 4-times the number of English words. (I can cite, just for instance, two (western) experimental studies I ran across over the last year in Scientific American magazine, demonstrating aspects of language/culture specific differences between western and Chinese perceptual reality. (Can reference and present them on request.)) For instance, Jeffery Yuen has fluent mastery in his native Cantonese (and Chinese script in general). Being notably intelligent, and immersed in Western culture (New York City) from a relatively early age, he's also fluent, has mastery in English, meaning not just able to read, write and speak reasonably correctly, but to grasp and generate complex concepts, images, and logical processes, and in vivid, practical terms for the western listener. I believe this is what makes his presentations so compelling. He takes non-trivial, non-literal Chinese medical (and philosophical) notions and brings them to life in vivid English language; shows, in the language of our reality, how they reveal insight into the common human reality (e.g. physiology, pathology, treatment, and whole life issues). He is also a walking encyclopedia of western bio-chemical knowledge, in addition to Chinese medical knowledge (old and new), and discovers parallels and mappings, not by mish-mashing the frameworks, but by focusing towards the depth of the subject matter the human condition in terms of health. A master of western medicine, beyond the technicalities, has an intimate feeling for issues of human life and health. A master of Chinese medicine (in Dr. Shen's sense), has an intimate feeling for issues of human life and health. They are not the same (perceptions, feeling, sense (note: Richard Wilhelm translates (Chinese) Dao as (German) " Sinn " anglicized sometimes as " sense " ) in both, even in a single practitioner. They can resonate with each other, trigger expansion of viewpoint in each other, but remain distinct frameworks. A huge advantage of this dual perspective, though, is that they can form a sort of triangulation on the subject matter, revealing more of what is there in itself, by virtue of being able to recognize, by comparison, and filter what the LIMITATIONS are in each individual framework, and hence freedom from mistaking those LIMITATIONS for essential features of the subject matter. A bio-technological framework, as well as a Jing-Qi-Shen etc. dynamic framework, are both models, not life itself. Mastery in pulse reading can not be a substitute for state-of-the-art lab testing and imaging know-how. Bio-technical analysis cannot replicate the information in (classical) pulse reading. Each can supply dimensions to what the other is inherently blind to, and in the interchange, help each other escape all too common delusions that can result from their respective limitations. " … self reinforcing experiences… " From discussions with Paul Unschuld, and material in his broad-stroked book 'Was ist Medizin " , it's clear his beliefs lie with modern scientific medicine, notwithstanding his immense respect for Chinese medicine, particularly in terms of history. But when pressed, he, from his appreciation of history and related perspectives such as anthropology and ethnography, acknowledges that all human knowledge amounts basically to shared belief systems. Including the most brilliant and self-evident (to those who share it's premises) achievements of modern science. To my cat, to the passing thunderstorm, to the half-moon circling above, the edifices of both (classical) Chinese medicine and (modern) Western medicine are little more than strange, self-centered foibles of human kind. Evidence is what groups, collectively, chose to accept as " reality " . We chuckle at the mass-delusionary world view of (European) medieval religious culture. For them, it was self-evident and sufficient reality. Across recent generations, scientists struggle with some embarrassment at what their forebearers took, a couple decades ago, to be it's best estimate of what is real, e.g. medically. How will scientists, in say 400 years, regard our current worldview? Unless history undergoes some magical transformation (I recently read a remark that every generation thinks of itself (at least in the West) as the most epochally significant.) In fact, Unschuld speaks of the value of the history of Chinese medicine (for him in his role as teacher of western medical history to medical students) lying in lessons to be gleaned from its 2000 year or so relative continuum of social-political-medical matrix. while in Western history is found no such continuum spanning more than about 300 years (very possibly including the current period). Life, death and illness goes on more or less the same, with slowly evolving human form and function, and continuous adaptation of the rest of the biosphere (including " pathogens " ). The theoretical-technological systems we use to cope are viewable historically as our transitory " cages " which both give us some protection and sense of ideological safety, and also entrap us. This concept of cage is in fact a principle thematic device for Unschuld in " Was ist Medizin " . Sorry if I rattle some people's cages with my ramblings (e.g. Guy Porter). Please don't hesitate to give mine a good shaking in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Chris, I enjoyed your post as an essay on the relationship of Chinese medicine to biomedicine. I think you should polish it up and publish it in a CM journal of your choice. Your sentiments are well-taken, and provide much food for thought. Having spent much of the last 25 years trying to master the art of pulse diagnosis, I couldn't agree more that the goal is not to necessarily detect morphological tissue changes or biomedical disease states, although I have been able to detect high cholesterol (hyperlipoproteinemia) tendencies with astonishing accuracy. Rather the goal is to determine aberrations of the relatively simple picture of health and equilibrium into the complexity of patterns of disharmony which can result in disease tendencies or disease itself. I've worked with Nan Jing and Li Shih-zhen pulse systems, especially as developed by Michael Broffman at the Pine St. clinic (Nan Jing), and have come to realize that there are a number of 'maps' that are used both in pulse diagnosis and pattern differentiation in Chinese medicine. These maps can be used separately or in an overlay, like reading wilderness maps that focus on topography, altitude, hydrology and ground cover. The maps are tools to interpret the 'data' of what the body presents to us, nothing more and nothing less. One can use five phase, zang-fu, jing- luo, six channel and other maps according to the circumstances facing us with each patient and clinical scenario. There are a number of possibilities of development in our profession, whether a more integrative one or more classical one, and I'd like to see them all happen, but not at the expense of the rich substrate of philosophy that supports what it is we practice. Today I read an advertisement from a colleague who claims to practice a 'fully integrated medicine totally evidence-based'. When the criteria for evidence in the modern medical culture is based, as you point out, on data, this can be a dangerous thing for Chinese medicine, especially when there is little data that supports, for example, the use of polypharmacy herbal prescriptions chosen by pattern differentiation. Data can and will be always interpreted, and since Chinese medicine is based largely on the individual practitioner/patient encounter, we need a different kind of 'measurement' that is sensitive to the kind of 'data' we perceive from pulse, tongue, palpation and questioning (naked sense diagnosis) as opposed to technological data. These kinds of studies may be more challenging, but ultimately this is what must be done. On Mar 23, 2006, at 3:56 AM, wrote: > Chinese language, consciousness, awareness, > culture constitutes a distinct " reality " relative > to the western correlates. They are two disparate > reality systems. Many, most individuals (in the > CM/TCM field) are anchored (or " caged " , see > below) in one or the other. Some few master both. > But those that truly do, know that they are > distinct perspectives; one can shift between the > two, they can be overlaid, mined for > convergences, parallels, etc., but remain > distinct. Just like when one is fluent in both > English and Chinese and can switch between the > two. Short of a neurological disorder, one does > not mish-mash the two languages together. One can > translate back and forth, invariably with > interpretation. The disparity appears, for > instance, as usually some number of Chinese > characters (at least in classics) translates into > say 2 to 4-times the number of English words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 " The pulse reveals the patient's constitution, previous illnesses, early insults to normal physiology, environmental stressors, trauma, lifestyle, emotions and behavior. Pulse diagnosis can also predict possible future pathologies with accuracy. " Leon Hammer Must be something in there we can test. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , < wrote: > > 1) Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:00:06 -0000 Kevin > <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > >One thing might be really interesting to try > and will give Asian medicine a boost in the arm > is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross Rosen or > Will Morris. If they can use their pulse > diagnosis to show things like Breast Cancer, > Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm and then > show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses. > > To my understanding, the claim (of the S-H pulse > system and others) is not that mastery in pulse > reading is equivalent, or intended to > pin-pointing western Dx, but rather a deep and > reliable detection of physiology and pathology in > terms of jing, yin/yang, qi/blood/fluids, > channels and zangfu dynamics and not just at the > abstract level that many of us know from TCM > school training, but from observation and > experience of the reality symbolized by these > terms. I.e. as a perspective on the human organism and its eu-/dys-functioning. > > Leon Hammer has related a case where he detected > a serious, if perhaps subtle disturbance in > " liver " functionality in a patient's pulse, and > advised the patient to have his physician check > out, or refer out for thorough hepatic > evaluation. (Apparently, Leon was not treating as > a Western primary care physician.) Test results > were negative (in terms of the status quo of > biomedical testing, probably a decade or so ago); > the PCP had a good laugh over it. A few years > later, the patient died of liver cancer. The > spouse sued, and, of course, lost the case. My > understanding is that Leon did not claim to > pinpoint or predict liver cancer, but some > process which could/would lead to something > comparably serious, AND the timeframe. He does, I > find, at times posit more or less close matches > between what the pulse reveals to him and > biomedical diagnoses. (In my memory most notably > the pattern for imminent CVA, which, BTW, might > be a good candidate for a clinical trial along > the lines Kevin suggests). He (Leon) has lived > that (physician) perspective across a long > career. But also has long and deep experience > from the TAM (Traditional Asian Medicine, to > borrow a phrase from the FDA) frame of > understanding; AND can see the parallels and > convergences between them. The bottom line in > both (all!) medical systems, well-understood and > well-applied, is to reveal and access realities > of the human condition. The goal, purpose, I > believe for all of us, is to probe this; the Dx > system, whatever flavor it may be, is secondary. > But it is my understanding that Leon does not > confound the two systems, nor claim that the S-H > pulse system is intended to pin-pointing ICD diagnoses. > > " Breast Cancer " , " aortic aneurysm " , etc. these > are biomedical abstractions. Yes, objectively > " real " , mechanically indisputable, of course, but > abstracted from the complex of etiological > possibilities (prevention), as well as from the > complex of management/cure/healing both areas > which encompass human lifestyle, belief systems; > constitutional, developmental; emotional, > sensory, cognitive, and " spiritual " interrelating > dimensions of human behavior. > > Note: with a range of examples such as the > aneurysm, and advanced stage cancers, the > treatment options are largely clear (though not > absolutely), i.e. surgery, chemo, radiation etc. > I suggest expanding Kevin's terms to include more > things like diabetes, other auto-immune > syndromes, IBS, COPD, and the like largely the > functional spectrum (i.e. some large percentage, > I recall, something like 70% of all inpatient > medical cases). Then the issues I point to are > more significant -- where did it really come from > (how to prevent it), and what are the > possibilities for effective treatment, medically > and by means of the patients own powers (lifestyle, intention, etc.) > > Dr. John Shen (as in Shen-Hammer) would > invariably (at the lectures I attended) begin > with and repeatedly stress that the good Chinese > doctor's task was not (first and foremost) > recognizing and curing patent (advanced/organic) > conditions; but rather working with the patient > to understand how health/illness relates to the > whole of his/her life, and furthering the > practical cultivation of that awareness to > enhance life. Most of us have probably studied > TaiJiChuan, GiGong, WuShu, etc., and been taught: > Jing (bones, blood and guts), Qi (functional > behavior), and Shen (the proprioception of > living), AND that Shen/awareness is the end, goal and purpose. > > 2) Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:54:22 0800, " Alon Marcus > DOM " <alonmarcus wrote: > Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:54:22 -0800 > > >The problem is not with him but with us as a > profession that we do not demand to see more > proof for anything. As an individual he may have > had some self-reinforcing experiences and > therefor probably truly believes in his system. > But until we can really demonstrate statistical > accuracy i do not believe we can promote such systems as fact. > > Tautology: " Statistical accuracy " and " fact " ? > Fact, in the sense of indisputable refers to > data, but the usage above implies meaning. But > meaning is invariably interpretation, is what we > hold as " truth " (not as non-contradiction, but as > adequacy of proof). (Look at the multitude of > re-interpretations of experimental data ( " facts " ) > across recent decades, which have resulted in revised conclusions.) > > Chinese language, consciousness, awareness, > culture constitutes a distinct " reality " relative > to the western correlates. They are two disparate > reality systems. Many, most individuals (in the > CM/TCM field) are anchored (or " caged " , see > below) in one or the other. Some few master both. > But those that truly do, know that they are > distinct perspectives; one can shift between the > two, they can be overlaid, mined for > convergences, parallels, etc., but remain > distinct. Just like when one is fluent in both > English and Chinese and can switch between the > two. Short of a neurological disorder, one does > not mish-mash the two languages together. One can > translate back and forth, invariably with > interpretation. The disparity appears, for > instance, as usually some number of Chinese > characters (at least in classics) translates into > say 2 to 4-times the number of English words. > > (I can cite, just for instance, two (western) > experimental studies I ran across over the last > year in Scientific American magazine, > demonstrating aspects of language/culture > specific differences between western and Chinese > perceptual reality. (Can reference and present them on request.)) > > For instance, Jeffery Yuen has fluent mastery in > his native Cantonese (and Chinese script in > general). Being notably intelligent, and immersed > in Western culture (New York City) from a > relatively early age, he's also fluent, has > mastery in English, meaning not just able to > read, write and speak reasonably correctly, but > to grasp and generate complex concepts, images, > and logical processes, and in vivid, practical > terms for the western listener. I believe this is > what makes his presentations so compelling. He > takes non-trivial, non-literal Chinese medical > (and philosophical) notions and brings them to > life in vivid English language; shows, in the > language of our reality, how they reveal insight > into the common human reality (e.g. physiology, > pathology, treatment, and whole life issues). > > He is also a walking encyclopedia of western > bio-chemical knowledge, in addition to Chinese > medical knowledge (old and new), and discovers > parallels and mappings, not by mish-mashing the > frameworks, but by focusing towards the depth of > the subject matter the human condition in terms > of health. A master of western medicine, beyond > the technicalities, has an intimate feeling for > issues of human life and health. A master of > Chinese medicine (in Dr. Shen's sense), has an > intimate feeling for issues of human life and > health. They are not the same (perceptions, > feeling, sense (note: Richard Wilhelm translates > (Chinese) Dao as (German) " Sinn " anglicized > sometimes as " sense " ) in both, even in a single > practitioner. They can resonate with each other, > trigger expansion of viewpoint in each other, but > remain distinct frameworks. A huge advantage of > this dual perspective, though, is that they can > form a sort of triangulation on the subject > matter, revealing more of what is there in > itself, by virtue of being able to recognize, by > comparison, and filter what the LIMITATIONS are > in each individual framework, and hence freedom > from mistaking those LIMITATIONS for essential > features of the subject matter. A > bio-technological framework, as well as a > Jing-Qi-Shen etc. dynamic framework, are both models, not life itself. > > Mastery in pulse reading can not be a substitute > for state-of-the-art lab testing and imaging > know-how. Bio-technical analysis cannot replicate > the information in (classical) pulse reading. > Each can supply dimensions to what the other is > inherently blind to, and in the interchange, help > each other escape all too common delusions that > can result from their respective limitations. > > " … self reinforcing experiences… " > > From discussions with Paul Unschuld, and > material in his broad-stroked book 'Was ist > Medizin " , it's clear his beliefs lie with modern > scientific medicine, notwithstanding his immense > respect for Chinese medicine, particularly in > terms of history. But when pressed, he, from his > appreciation of history and related perspectives > such as anthropology and ethnography, > acknowledges that all human knowledge amounts > basically to shared belief systems. Including the > most brilliant and self-evident (to those who > share it's premises) achievements of modern > science. To my cat, to the passing thunderstorm, > to the half-moon circling above, the edifices of > both (classical) Chinese medicine and (modern) > Western medicine are little more than strange, > self-centered foibles of human kind. > > Evidence is what groups, collectively, chose to > accept as " reality " . We chuckle at the > mass-delusionary world view of (European) > medieval religious culture. For them, it was > self-evident and sufficient reality. Across > recent generations, scientists struggle with some > embarrassment at what their forebearers took, a > couple decades ago, to be it's best estimate of > what is real, e.g. medically. How will > scientists, in say 400 years, regard our current > worldview? Unless history undergoes some magical > transformation (I recently read a remark that > every generation thinks of itself (at least in > the West) as the most epochally significant.) > > In fact, Unschuld speaks of the value of the > history of Chinese medicine (for him in his role > as teacher of western medical history to medical > students) lying in lessons to be gleaned from its > 2000 year or so relative continuum of > social-political-medical matrix. while in Western > history is found no such continuum spanning more > than about 300 years (very possibly including the current period). > > Life, death and illness goes on more or less the > same, with slowly evolving human form and > function, and continuous adaptation of the rest > of the biosphere (including " pathogens " ). The > theoretical-technological systems we use to cope > are viewable historically as our transitory > " cages " which both give us some protection and > sense of ideological safety, and also entrap us. > This concept of cage is in fact a principle > thematic device for Unschuld in " Was ist Medizin " . > > Sorry if I rattle some people's cages with my > ramblings (e.g. Guy Porter). Please don't > hesitate to give mine a good shaking in return. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 So he actually went to the Dr. because of his dog? Thats great. Mans best friend, indeed! Chinese Medicine , lyeric100 wrote: > > I have a patient now whose dog started acting strangely whenever he went to > the bathroom. Apparently she would sniff around and then stand and stare at > him. He went to the Dr. because of her behaviour and was diagnosed with > prostate cancer. He was the patient I wrote into the group about a couple of weeks > ago re;post surgical impotence. > > Marylee > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 maybe you should e-mail Michael Broffman at the Pine Street Clinic...he is always open to suggestions...or Nicholas who is the PR person. They have been working on this for a long time... seems like they are having some success. If you need info for them I am happy to get it to you. - leabun1<leabun1 To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @> Wednesday, March 22, 2006 3:17 PM Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea) Just to be tangential, as usual. Has anyone else read about how they are using dogs to " sniff " out breast cancer? Im not making this up, apparantly the dogs can be trained to detect metabolic changes that effect the smell of a patients breath in breast cancer in the early stages. They are trying to use this info to create an " artificial nose " , if you will. The mind boggles. Maybe they should try pigs for greater smell acuity. :-) --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @>, " acupuncturebeverlyhill s " <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > It's would be a big step forward if it worked. Early detection of > breast cancer, and maybe John Ridder would have been diagnosed with an > aortic aneurysm instead of a heart attack. > Is it worth the risk to test it scientifically? He has a lot invested > in his pulse diagnosis so you need to understand that if the test > results shows no real correlations he would take a huge loss to his > income and identity. > > > Kelvin > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @>, " Alon Marcus DOM " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere > as usual > > > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > <http:///> > > - > > acupuncturebeverlyhills > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @> > > Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM > > Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea) > > > > > > One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian > > medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross > > Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show > > things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm > > and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses. > > > > Kelvin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @>, petetheisen > > <petetheisen@> wrote: > > > > > > mike Bowser wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mike! > > > > > > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day: > > > > > > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf<http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.p\ df>> > > > > > > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study and > > > other experience based practices as well and will for the > foreseeable > > > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is > research > > > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for > the time > > > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it > on my web > > > site. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Pete > > > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. Interesting > > > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be > leaning the > > > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's and > > > > insurance companies. > > > <snip> > > > >> Hang on in there! > > > >> > > > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture > > > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based > > > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we don't > > > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will > never be > > > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality > > > >> Western acupuncture research > > > <snip> > > > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese > Medicine at > > > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > > > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & > 2' as > > > >> compulsory > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145<http://toolbar.thebizpl\ ace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145> > > > > > <http://groups.ya\ hoo.com> and > adjust accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 DrGRPorter wrote: <snip> > seems to be a distinct speaking in this group towards letting > everyone " go their own way " and that every opinion or proposition is > okay if everyone has their own truth. Hi Dr. Porter! Wow, deja vu all over again! Too many old liberal arts grads in TCM. " . . . the principal infatuations of today revolve around the social sciences, those disciplines that can accommodate any opinion and about which the most reckless conjecture cannot be discredited. " Bragging rights to whoever can identify the source. Won't be that hard. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Pete, I am not sure of what you speak as many people, myself included, think that this is the most conservative time we have ever known (for me since Nixon). We need new ideas and ways to address problems (healthcare for us) not the same old conservative rhetoric about how wonderful things are while they continue to decline. I think that we have become stagnant or conservative within our profession as well. There is a growing disconnect w/i the profession that has some moving us forward (doctoral programs and integrative education come to mind) and others wanting to try to wait things out in hopes that this terrible time will pass us by. I do not think we can last if we remain focused upon our fears. Let's get more progressive in this battle as many things that need to change are interconnected. This reminds me of the title, " The Web That Has No Weaver " . The one thing that we have not done well is to provide support for individual choice (professional practice) and yet move the profession forward as a whole. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >petetheisen <petetheisen >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea) >Fri, 24 Mar 2006 03:31:56 -0500 > >DrGRPorter wrote: ><snip> > > seems to be a distinct speaking in this group towards letting > > everyone " go their own way " and that every opinion or proposition is > > okay if everyone has their own truth. > >Hi Dr. Porter! > >Wow, deja vu all over again! Too many old liberal arts grads in TCM. > > " . . . the principal infatuations of today revolve around the social >sciences, those disciplines that can accommodate any opinion and about >which the most reckless conjecture cannot be discredited. " > >Bragging rights to whoever can identify the source. Won't be that hard. > >Regards, > >Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 Good ol' Spiro Agnew. Now on that note, remember listers, the list is non-political. Thanks, Mark (list owner) Quoting petetheisen <petetheisen: > Hi Dr. Porter! > > Wow, deja vu all over again! Too many old liberal arts grads in TCM. > > " . . . the principal infatuations of today revolve around the social > sciences, those disciplines that can accommodate any opinion and about > which the most reckless conjecture cannot be discredited. " > > Bragging rights to whoever can identify the source. Won't be that hard. > > Regards, > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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