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One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian

medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross

Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show

things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm

and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses.

 

Kelvin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , petetheisen

<petetheisen wrote:

>

> mike Bowser wrote:

>

> Hi Mike!

>

> Recalling Phil's contribution the other day:

>

> <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf>

>

> Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study and

> other experience based practices as well and will for the foreseeable

> future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is research

> based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for the time

> being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it on my web

> site.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. Interesting

> > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be leaning the

> > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's and

> > insurance companies.

> <snip>

> >> Hang on in there!

> >>

> >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture

> >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based

> >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we don't

> >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will never be

> >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality

> >> Western acupuncture research

> <snip>

> >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at

> >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism

> >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as

> >> compulsory

>

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But could we replicate it in our own humble clinics

Sue

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " acupuncturebeverlyhill

s " <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian

> medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross

> Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to

show

> things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm

> and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses.

>

> Kelvin

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Chinese Medicine , petetheisen

> <petetheisen@> wrote:

> >

> > mike Bowser wrote:

> >

> > Hi Mike!

> >

> > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day:

> >

> > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf>

> >

> > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study

and

> > other experience based practices as well and will for the

foreseeable

> > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is

research

> > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for

the time

> > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it

on my web

> > site.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Pete

> > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic.

Interesting

> > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be

leaning the

> > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's

and

> > > insurance companies.

> > <snip>

> > >> Hang on in there!

> > >>

> > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture

> > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based

> > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we

don't

> > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will

never be

> > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality

> > >> Western acupuncture research

> > <snip>

> > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese

Medicine at

> > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much

criticism

> > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 &

2' as

> > >> compulsory

> >

>

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I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere as usual

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

acupuncturebeverlyhills

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM

Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea)

 

 

One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian

medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross

Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show

things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm

and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses.

 

Kelvin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , petetheisen

<petetheisen wrote:

>

> mike Bowser wrote:

>

> Hi Mike!

>

> Recalling Phil's contribution the other day:

>

> <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf>

>

> Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study and

> other experience based practices as well and will for the foreseeable

> future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is research

> based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for the time

> being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it on my web

> site.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. Interesting

> > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be leaning the

> > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's and

> > insurance companies.

> <snip>

> >> Hang on in there!

> >>

> >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture

> >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based

> >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we don't

> >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will never be

> >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality

> >> Western acupuncture research

> <snip>

> >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at

> >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism

> >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as

> >> compulsory

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

 

 

 

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Guest guest

It's would be a big step forward if it worked. Early detection of

breast cancer, and maybe John Ridder would have been diagnosed with an

aortic aneurysm instead of a heart attack.

Is it worth the risk to test it scientifically? He has a lot invested

in his pulse diagnosis so you need to understand that if the test

results shows no real correlations he would take a huge loss to his

income and identity.

 

 

Kelvin

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<alonmarcus wrote:

>

> I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere

as usual

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

> acupuncturebeverlyhills

> Chinese Medicine

> Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM

> Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea)

>

>

> One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian

> medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross

> Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show

> things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm

> and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses.

>

> Kelvin

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Chinese Medicine , petetheisen

> <petetheisen@> wrote:

> >

> > mike Bowser wrote:

> >

> > Hi Mike!

> >

> > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day:

> >

> > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf>

> >

> > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study and

> > other experience based practices as well and will for the

foreseeable

> > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is

research

> > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for

the time

> > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it

on my web

> > site.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Pete

> > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. Interesting

> > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be

leaning the

> > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's and

> > > insurance companies.

> > <snip>

> > >> Hang on in there!

> > >>

> > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture

> > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based

> > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we don't

> > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will

never be

> > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality

> > >> Western acupuncture research

> > <snip>

> > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese

Medicine at

> > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism

> > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 &

2' as

> > >> compulsory

> >

>

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

and

adjust accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

the group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

absolutely necessary.

>

>

>

>

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In a message dated 3/22/2006 4:55:14 A.M. Central Standard Time,

writes:

 

From another angle, it is possible, as the Shen-Hammer program

demonstrates, for any humble practitioner, with a modicum of ability,

a large dose of study, person-to-person training (e.g. the

Shen-Hammer system), and years if not decades of arduous pratice to

reliably demonstrate such diagnostic skill.

 

 

 

 

# # #

 

It is a relatively easy matter to set up a study to determine interexaminer

reliability. This is something that even a group of students could do, if they

had just five experts. Because such a study is easy, the lack of one may be

a clear signal to some scientists outside our field that there could be some

intellectual dishonesty going on in this field. After call, the diagnosis of

disease (or really anything) from feeling the pulse seems a fantastic claim.

You could start with determining if five people could agree that one person

has a " slippery " quality to the pulse. Eventually, with the help of a local

cardiologist, you might get to a study where a qualified examiner could be

tested to see if he could identify people with specific heart or cirulatory

problems. From there, on the other WM specialists.

 

Honestly, if you could find people who could manually diagnose breast

cancer, the insurance companies would fall all over themselves sending people to

you, as this test would be incredibly cheaper than the way it's done now. On the

other hand, again, it would be great to know that five experts could agree

on five or ten different qualities consistently.

 

We did an interexaminer reliability test in a chiropractic school and

unfortunately some of the research was suppressed rapidly when it became

apparent

that one of the systems used by a significant donor to the school's endowment

had random results.

 

I would ask Kelvin if it is more important to preserve Dr. Hammer's income

and prestige or more important for practitioners to know whether or not all

this talk of pulse quality is just so much perverse wind. Further, I would

wonder why practitioners or students would care to pay for a seminar at which

what

they thought they were learning was in fact, not teachable.

 

You would not need Dr. Hammer's permission or participation. You would just

need about five people who studied under him, as well as perhaps five other

expert practitioners (five years in practice?)

 

If the system takes 30 years to master, maybe it's better is we simply got

more people working with less difficult and perhaps more accurate (in

aggregate) methods of dx.

 

Not meaning to be offensive, just some thoughts

 

Guy Porter

 

 

 

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At 05:00 PM 3/21/2006, Kelvinwrote:

>One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian

>medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross

>Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show

>things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm

>and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses.

 

Sue's question points to a fundamental difference between

demonstrable art and a blind side to the current state of science, in

it's attachment to objectified or impersonal, mechanical process.

 

Similarly, Paul Unschuld (at more than one place in the volume 1 of

the SuWen series) insists that the human body is minimally

expressive, in an objective sense. He refers to temperature, cardiac

and respiratory rate, and a couple of other trivial measures

(compared with what a pulse master can measure). Reading this (and I

recall hearing him mention this in a workshop, and questioning him

him along these lines) I immediately thought of what I know people

like Dr. Shen, Dr. Hammer, etc. were/are capable of reliably

diagnosing. If I recall, his answer was along the lines of art vs science.

 

From another angle, it is possible, as the Shen-Hammer program

demonstrates, for any humble practitioner, with a modicum of ability,

a large dose of study, person-to-person training (e.g. the

Shen-Hammer system), and years if not decades of arduous pratice to

reliably demonstrate such diagnostic skill.

 

 

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At 07:21 PM 3/21/2006, Alon Marcuswrote:

>I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere as usual

 

Tangentially related:

 

Leon, at least at one point, was interested in and believed a

mechanical system could replicate the finger sensitivity of his

system with regard to assessing the depths. He mentioned this on a

couple of occasions to me as I had a background in computer

technology (in particular in a project ca. 1970 doing digital

brainwave feedback). I was skeptical due to the considerable problems

I recall in the area of calibration of any mechanical-digital input

system. That is, such a system would have to accomodate the

differences of pressure and distance needed to probe the relative

depths in the range between a thin-skinned,smallish and delicate

person's wrist (say a balerinna), and that of a thick-skinned,

massive and robust person's (say a football lineman).

 

 

 

PS There was a project sometime ago out of the Pine Tree Clinic in

Marin, a digital system aimed at decoding / standardizing pulse

reading for didactic purposes. Even some purported research, which

demonstrated a some correlation between the machine's and an expert's

evaluations. A minor methodological problem was that it was also an

" expert " running and calibrating the machine.

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As quality is much more subjective and meanings are sometimes varied, how

about initial focus upon strength or weakness of the positions and who that

related to symptoms/signs? Just an idea.

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

 

 

>DrGRPorter

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea)

>Wed, 22 Mar 2006 06:30:09 EST

>

>

>In a message dated 3/22/2006 4:55:14 A.M. Central Standard Time,

> writes:

>

>From another angle, it is possible, as the Shen-Hammer program

>demonstrates, for any humble practitioner, with a modicum of ability,

>a large dose of study, person-to-person training (e.g. the

>Shen-Hammer system), and years if not decades of arduous pratice to

>reliably demonstrate such diagnostic skill.

>

>

>

>

># # #

>

>It is a relatively easy matter to set up a study to determine interexaminer

>reliability. This is something that even a group of students could do, if

>they

> had just five experts. Because such a study is easy, the lack of one may

>be

>a clear signal to some scientists outside our field that there could be

>some

>intellectual dishonesty going on in this field. After call, the diagnosis

>of

>disease (or really anything) from feeling the pulse seems a fantastic

>claim.

>You could start with determining if five people could agree that one

>person

>has a " slippery " quality to the pulse. Eventually, with the help of a

>local

>cardiologist, you might get to a study where a qualified examiner could be

>tested to see if he could identify people with specific heart or cirulatory

>problems. From there, on the other WM specialists.

>

>Honestly, if you could find people who could manually diagnose breast

>cancer, the insurance companies would fall all over themselves sending

>people to

>you, as this test would be incredibly cheaper than the way it's done now.

>On the

> other hand, again, it would be great to know that five experts could

>agree

>on five or ten different qualities consistently.

>

>We did an interexaminer reliability test in a chiropractic school and

>unfortunately some of the research was suppressed rapidly when it became

>apparent

>that one of the systems used by a significant donor to the school's

>endowment

>had random results.

>

>I would ask Kelvin if it is more important to preserve Dr. Hammer's income

>and prestige or more important for practitioners to know whether or not all

>this talk of pulse quality is just so much perverse wind. Further, I would

>wonder why practitioners or students would care to pay for a seminar at

>which what

>they thought they were learning was in fact, not teachable.

>

>You would not need Dr. Hammer's permission or participation. You would just

>need about five people who studied under him, as well as perhaps five other

>expert practitioners (five years in practice?)

>

>If the system takes 30 years to master, maybe it's better is we simply got

>more people working with less difficult and perhaps more accurate (in

>aggregate) methods of dx.

>

>Not meaning to be offensive, just some thoughts

>

>Guy Porter

>

>

>

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Some out there might be interested to know that there is research into

various aspects of OM. Here is a link that might help us better explain and

demonstrate ourselves

 

https://www.cihs.edu/whatsnew/ami_info.asp

 

 

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

 

 

> <

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea)

>Wed, 22 Mar 2006 03:05:56 -0800

>

>At 07:21 PM 3/21/2006, Alon Marcuswrote:

> >I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere as

>usual

>

>Tangentially related:

>

>Leon, at least at one point, was interested in and believed a

>mechanical system could replicate the finger sensitivity of his

>system with regard to assessing the depths. He mentioned this on a

>couple of occasions to me as I had a background in computer

>technology (in particular in a project ca. 1970 doing digital

>brainwave feedback). I was skeptical due to the considerable problems

>I recall in the area of calibration of any mechanical-digital input

>system. That is, such a system would have to accomodate the

>differences of pressure and distance needed to probe the relative

>depths in the range between a thin-skinned,smallish and delicate

>person's wrist (say a balerinna), and that of a thick-skinned,

>massive and robust person's (say a football lineman).

>

>

>

>PS There was a project sometime ago out of the Pine Tree Clinic in

>Marin, a digital system aimed at decoding / standardizing pulse

>reading for didactic purposes. Even some purported research, which

>demonstrated a some correlation between the machine's and an expert's

>evaluations. A minor methodological problem was that it was also an

> " expert " running and calibrating the machine.

>

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Kelvin

The problem is not with him but with us as a profession that we do not demand to

see more proof for anything. As an individual he may have had some self

reinforcing experiences and therefor probably truly believes in his system. But

until we can really demonstrate statistical accuracy i do not believe we can

promote such systems as fact.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

acupuncturebeverlyhills

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:16 PM

Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea)

 

 

It's would be a big step forward if it worked. Early detection of

breast cancer, and maybe John Ridder would have been diagnosed with an

aortic aneurysm instead of a heart attack.

Is it worth the risk to test it scientifically? He has a lot invested

in his pulse diagnosis so you need to understand that if the test

results shows no real correlations he would take a huge loss to his

income and identity.

 

 

Kelvin

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<alonmarcus wrote:

>

> I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere

as usual

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

> acupuncturebeverlyhills

> Chinese Medicine

> Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM

> Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea)

>

>

> One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian

> medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross

> Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show

> things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm

> and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses.

>

> Kelvin

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , petetheisen

> <petetheisen@> wrote:

> >

> > mike Bowser wrote:

> >

> > Hi Mike!

> >

> > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day:

> >

> > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf>

> >

> > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study and

> > other experience based practices as well and will for the

foreseeable

> > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is

research

> > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for

the time

> > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it

on my web

> > site.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Pete

> > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. Interesting

> > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be

leaning the

> > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's and

> > > insurance companies.

> > <snip>

> > >> Hang on in there!

> > >>

> > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture

> > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based

> > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we don't

> > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will

never be

> > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality

> > >> Western acupuncture research

> > <snip>

> > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese

Medicine at

> > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism

> > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 &

2' as

> > >> compulsory

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

and

adjust accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

the group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

absolutely necessary.

>

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

This I know, look what happened to iridology after they tested it againts

patients with specific diseases.

Have you asked Ross Rosen?

 

Kelvin

 

<alonmarcus wrote: Kelvin

The problem is not with him but with us as a profession that we do not demand

to see more proof for anything. As an individual he may have had some self

reinforcing experiences and therefor probably truly believes in his system. But

until we can really demonstrate statistical accuracy i do not believe we can

promote such systems as fact.

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

acupuncturebeverlyhills

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:16 PM

Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea)

 

 

It's would be a big step forward if it worked. Early detection of

breast cancer, and maybe John Ridder would have been diagnosed with an

aortic aneurysm instead of a heart attack.

Is it worth the risk to test it scientifically? He has a lot invested

in his pulse diagnosis so you need to understand that if the test

results shows no real correlations he would take a huge loss to his

income and identity.

 

 

Kelvin

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<alonmarcus wrote:

>

> I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got nowhere

as usual

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

> acupuncturebeverlyhills

> Chinese Medicine

> Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM

> Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea)

>

>

> One thing might be really interesting to try and will give Asian

> medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross

> Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis to show

> things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm

> and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses.

>

> Kelvin

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , petetheisen

> <petetheisen@> wrote:

> >

> > mike Bowser wrote:

> >

> > Hi Mike!

> >

> > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day:

> >

> > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf>

> >

> > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case study and

> > other experience based practices as well and will for the

foreseeable

> > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that is

research

> > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for

the time

> > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post it

on my web

> > site.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Pete

> > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic. Interesting

> > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be

leaning the

> > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to HMO's and

> > > insurance companies.

> > <snip>

> > >> Hang on in there!

> > >>

> > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in Acupuncture

> > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence based

> > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If we don't

> > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will

never be

> > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor quality

> > >> Western acupuncture research

> > <snip>

> > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese

Medicine at

> > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism

> > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 &

2' as

> > >> compulsory

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

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Simon (1979)(including Bernard Jenson, Americas leading iridology

expert) unable to find kidney disease in patients with kidney disease.

Cockburn (1981)No correlation to people with certain diseases

Knischild (1988) found GB disease equally in people with GB disease

and those without.

 

I'm sure there is more if anyone wants to add some.

 

Kelvin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Mike Liaw

<mikeliaw wrote:

>

> Kelvin,

>

> What was learned in iridology test?

>

> Mike L.

>

>

>

>

>

> Mail

> Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

>

>

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Guest guest

Just to be tangential, as usual. Has anyone else read about how they

are using dogs to " sniff " out breast cancer? Im not making this up,

apparantly the dogs can be trained to detect metabolic changes that

effect the smell of a patients breath in breast cancer in the early

stages. They are trying to use this info to create an " artificial

nose " , if you will. The mind boggles. Maybe they should try pigs for

greater smell acuity. :-)

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " acupuncturebeverlyhill

s " <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> It's would be a big step forward if it worked. Early detection of

> breast cancer, and maybe John Ridder would have been diagnosed

with an

> aortic aneurysm instead of a heart attack.

> Is it worth the risk to test it scientifically? He has a lot

invested

> in his pulse diagnosis so you need to understand that if the test

> results shows no real correlations he would take a huge loss to his

> income and identity.

>

>

> Kelvin

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus

DOM "

> <alonmarcus@> wrote:

> >

> > I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got

nowhere

> as usual

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Oakland, CA 94609

> >

> >

> > -

> > acupuncturebeverlyhills

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM

> > Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea)

> >

> >

> > One thing might be really interesting to try and will give

Asian

> > medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer,

Ross

> > Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis

to show

> > things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic

aneurysm

> > and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the

diagnoses.

> >

> > Kelvin

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine ,

petetheisen

> > <petetheisen@> wrote:

> > >

> > > mike Bowser wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Mike!

> > >

> > > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day:

> > >

> > > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf>

> > >

> > > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case

study and

> > > other experience based practices as well and will for the

> foreseeable

> > > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that

is

> research

> > > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for

> the time

> > > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post

it

> on my web

> > > site.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Pete

> > > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic.

Interesting

> > > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be

> leaning the

> > > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to

HMO's and

> > > > insurance companies.

> > > <snip>

> > > >> Hang on in there!

> > > >>

> > > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in

Acupuncture

> > > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence

based

> > > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If

we don't

> > > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will

> never be

> > > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor

quality

> > > >> Western acupuncture research

> > > <snip>

> > > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese

> Medicine at

> > > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much

criticism

> > > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1

&

> 2' as

> > > >> compulsory

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

> Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> >

> > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> >

> >

> and

> adjust accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

outside

> the group requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> absolutely necessary.

> >

> >

> >

> >

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The cancer dogs have been around for 20 years and it seems that every

5 years or so it shhows up on TV.

 

Kelvin

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " leabun1 "

<leabun1 wrote:

>

> Just to be tangential, as usual. Has anyone else read about how they

> are using dogs to " sniff " out breast cancer? Im not making this up,

> apparantly the dogs can be trained to detect metabolic changes that

> effect the smell of a patients breath in breast cancer in the early

> stages. They are trying to use this info to create an " artificial

> nose " , if you will. The mind boggles. Maybe they should try pigs for

> greater smell acuity. :-)

>

> --- In

> Chinese Medicine , " acupuncturebeverlyhill

> s " <acupuncturebeverlyhills@> wrote:

> >

> > It's would be a big step forward if it worked. Early detection of

> > breast cancer, and maybe John Ridder would have been diagnosed

> with an

> > aortic aneurysm instead of a heart attack.

> > Is it worth the risk to test it scientifically? He has a lot

> invested

> > in his pulse diagnosis so you need to understand that if the test

> > results shows no real correlations he would take a huge loss to his

> > income and identity.

> >

> >

> > Kelvin

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus

> DOM "

> > <alonmarcus@> wrote:

> > >

> > > I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got

> nowhere

> > as usual

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Oakland, CA 94609

> > >

> > >

> > > -

> > > acupuncturebeverlyhills

> > > Chinese Medicine

> > > Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM

> > > Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea)

> > >

> > >

> > > One thing might be really interesting to try and will give

> Asian

> > > medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer,

> Ross

> > > Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis

> to show

> > > things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic

> aneurysm

> > > and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the

> diagnoses.

> > >

> > > Kelvin

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine ,

> petetheisen

> > > <petetheisen@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > mike Bowser wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hi Mike!

> > > >

> > > > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day:

> > > >

> > > > <http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf>

> > > >

> > > > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case

> study and

> > > > other experience based practices as well and will for the

> > foreseeable

> > > > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that

> is

> > research

> > > > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for

> > the time

> > > > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post

> it

> > on my web

> > > > site.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > >

> > > > Pete

> > > > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic.

> Interesting

> > > > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be

> > leaning the

> > > > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to

> HMO's and

> > > > > insurance companies.

> > > > <snip>

> > > > >> Hang on in there!

> > > > >>

> > > > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in

> Acupuncture

> > > > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence

> based

> > > > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If

> we don't

> > > > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will

> > never be

> > > > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor

> quality

> > > > >> Western acupuncture research

> > > > <snip>

> > > > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese

> > Medicine at

> > > > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much

> criticism

> > > > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1

> &

> > 2' as

> > > > >> compulsory

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

> > Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> > >

> > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> > >

> > >

> > and

> > adjust accordingly.

> > >

> > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

> outside

> > the group requires prior permission from the author.

> > >

> > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> > absolutely necessary.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

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I have a patient now whose dog started acting strangely whenever he went to

the bathroom. Apparently she would sniff around and then stand and stare at

him. He went to the Dr. because of her behaviour and was diagnosed with

prostate cancer. He was the patient I wrote into the group about a couple of

weeks

ago re;post surgical impotence.

 

Marylee

 

 

 

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Dear Chris:

 

Thanks for acknowledging my contributions. I have a few points to raise in

response to yours. I am enclosing portions of your post in quotes, since that

blue line on aol doesn't come across when sending to the group.

 

 

" Leon Hammer has related a case where he detected

a serious, if perhaps subtle disturbance in

" liver " functionality ... but some

process which could/would lead to something

comparably serious, AND the timeframe. "

 

Without the extensive training that you or other members of this group have

had, even I have had similar experiences. In order to determine if this

experience is significant, it would be important to look at all the myriad

things

that did not get detected. Thus, this one experience (that perhaps most have

had at one time or another) is dramatic and might point us in the wrong

direction regarding the conclusion we take from it.

 

" Breast Cancer " , " aortic aneurysm " , etc. these

are biomedical abstractions. Yes, objectively

" real " , mechanically indisputable, of course, but

abstracted from the complex of etiological

possibilities (prevention), as well as from the

complex of management/cure/healing both areas

which encompass human lifestyle, belief systems;

constitutional, developmental; emotional,

sensory, cognitive, and " spiritual " interrelating

dimensions of human behavior. "

 

Clearly an aortic aneurysm is not an abstraction. Niether is a large lump in

a breast. In the continuum of things regarded as " real " v " abstract, " belief

systems, sprituality and cognition are far more abstract. This isn't to say

that they cannot be explored, but rather that we should be careful with our

words since we're on shaky ground, so to speak.

 

" 2) Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:54:22 0800, " Alon Marcus

DOM " <alonmarcus wrote:

Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:54:22 -0800

 

>The problem is not with him but with us as a

profession that we do not demand to see more

proof for anything. As an individual he may have

had some self-reinforcing experiences and

therefor probably truly believes in his system.

But until we can really demonstrate statistical

accuracy i do not believe we can promote such systems as fact.

 

Tautology: " Statistical accuracy " and " fact " ?

Fact, in the sense of indisputable refers to

data, but the usage above implies meaning. But

meaning is invariably interpretation, is what we

hold as " truth " (not as non-contradiction, but as

adequacy of proof). (Look at the multitude of

re-interpretations of experimental data ( " facts " )

across recent decades, which have resulted in revised conclusions.) "

 

I find no prognostic data in CM. Everything I have read that has been

credible is purely descriptive. And that is great for a discipline which seeks

to

add meaning to patient's lives, and do all the more humanistic functions you

relate in your post. Most all of that is missing from WM and it's inclusion in

CM ala Kaptchuk may be the saving grace for the profession.

 

I took the meaning of " statistical fact " in Alon's post to mean a fact which

has been substantiated with some commonly accepted statistical study. No

matter what you want to say about the inadequacy of RCT's with acupuncture

protocols, interexaminer reliability studies don't have those drawback. You put

five experts in a room. You run 50 subjects through the experiment and you can

tell how much these people are agreeing with each other. You can use a simple

chi-square analysis, one of the simplest techniques in statistics.

 

If the null hypothesis, that there is no agreement between experts, is true,

then the concept of pulse diagnosis has to be revised to indicate that this

is a practice that does something other than help with an objective CM

diagnosis.

 

Lastly, the only thing that might irritate me personally would be an

implication that I or others are in cages while you roam free. On the other

hand,

there is a Buddhist proverb that says " To the beginner there are many

possibilities. To the expert there are few. " By this I don't mean to imply you

aren't

an expert and certainly don't mean to imply that I am. But there seems to be

a distinct speaking in this group towards letting everyone " go their own

way " and that every opinion or proposition is okay if everyone has their own

truth.

 

That's not science or even prudent practice.

 

Guy Porter

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1) Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:00:06 -0000 Kevin

<acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

 

>One thing might be really interesting to try

and will give Asian medicine a boost in the arm

is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross Rosen or

Will Morris. If they can use their pulse

diagnosis to show things like Breast Cancer,

Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm and then

show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses.

 

To my understanding, the claim (of the S-H pulse

system and others) is not that mastery in pulse

reading is equivalent, or intended to

pin-pointing western Dx, but rather a deep and

reliable detection of physiology and pathology in

terms of jing, yin/yang, qi/blood/fluids,

channels and zangfu dynamics and not just at the

abstract level that many of us know from TCM

school training, but from observation and

experience of the reality symbolized by these

terms. I.e. as a perspective on the human organism and its eu-/dys-functioning.

 

Leon Hammer has related a case where he detected

a serious, if perhaps subtle disturbance in

" liver " functionality in a patient's pulse, and

advised the patient to have his physician check

out, or refer out for thorough hepatic

evaluation. (Apparently, Leon was not treating as

a Western primary care physician.) Test results

were negative (in terms of the status quo of

biomedical testing, probably a decade or so ago);

the PCP had a good laugh over it. A few years

later, the patient died of liver cancer. The

spouse sued, and, of course, lost the case. My

understanding is that Leon did not claim to

pinpoint or predict liver cancer, but some

process which could/would lead to something

comparably serious, AND the timeframe. He does, I

find, at times posit more or less close matches

between what the pulse reveals to him and

biomedical diagnoses. (In my memory most notably

the pattern for imminent CVA, which, BTW, might

be a good candidate for a clinical trial along

the lines Kevin suggests). He (Leon) has lived

that (physician) perspective across a long

career. But also has long and deep experience

from the TAM (Traditional Asian Medicine, to

borrow a phrase from the FDA) frame of

understanding; AND can see the parallels and

convergences between them. The bottom line in

both (all!) medical systems, well-understood and

well-applied, is to reveal and access realities

of the human condition. The goal, purpose, I

believe for all of us, is to probe this; the Dx

system, whatever flavor it may be, is secondary.

But it is my understanding that Leon does not

confound the two systems, nor claim that the S-H

pulse system is intended to pin-pointing ICD diagnoses.

 

" Breast Cancer " , " aortic aneurysm " , etc. these

are biomedical abstractions. Yes, objectively

" real " , mechanically indisputable, of course, but

abstracted from the complex of etiological

possibilities (prevention), as well as from the

complex of management/cure/healing both areas

which encompass human lifestyle, belief systems;

constitutional, developmental; emotional,

sensory, cognitive, and " spiritual " interrelating

dimensions of human behavior.

 

Note: with a range of examples such as the

aneurysm, and advanced stage cancers, the

treatment options are largely clear (though not

absolutely), i.e. surgery, chemo, radiation etc.

I suggest expanding Kevin's terms to include more

things like diabetes, other auto-immune

syndromes, IBS, COPD, and the like largely the

functional spectrum (i.e. some large percentage,

I recall, something like 70% of all inpatient

medical cases). Then the issues I point to are

more significant -- where did it really come from

(how to prevent it), and what are the

possibilities for effective treatment, medically

and by means of the patients own powers (lifestyle, intention, etc.)

 

Dr. John Shen (as in Shen-Hammer) would

invariably (at the lectures I attended) begin

with and repeatedly stress that the good Chinese

doctor's task was not (first and foremost)

recognizing and curing patent (advanced/organic)

conditions; but rather working with the patient

to understand how health/illness relates to the

whole of his/her life, and furthering the

practical cultivation of that awareness to

enhance life. Most of us have probably studied

TaiJiChuan, GiGong, WuShu, etc., and been taught:

Jing (bones, blood and guts), Qi (functional

behavior), and Shen (the proprioception of

living), AND that Shen/awareness is the end, goal and purpose.

 

2) Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:54:22 0800, " Alon Marcus

DOM " <alonmarcus wrote:

Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:54:22 -0800

 

>The problem is not with him but with us as a

profession that we do not demand to see more

proof for anything. As an individual he may have

had some self-reinforcing experiences and

therefor probably truly believes in his system.

But until we can really demonstrate statistical

accuracy i do not believe we can promote such systems as fact.

 

Tautology: " Statistical accuracy " and " fact " ?

Fact, in the sense of indisputable refers to

data, but the usage above implies meaning. But

meaning is invariably interpretation, is what we

hold as " truth " (not as non-contradiction, but as

adequacy of proof). (Look at the multitude of

re-interpretations of experimental data ( " facts " )

across recent decades, which have resulted in revised conclusions.)

 

Chinese language, consciousness, awareness,

culture constitutes a distinct " reality " relative

to the western correlates. They are two disparate

reality systems. Many, most individuals (in the

CM/TCM field) are anchored (or " caged " , see

below) in one or the other. Some few master both.

But those that truly do, know that they are

distinct perspectives; one can shift between the

two, they can be overlaid, mined for

convergences, parallels, etc., but remain

distinct. Just like when one is fluent in both

English and Chinese and can switch between the

two. Short of a neurological disorder, one does

not mish-mash the two languages together. One can

translate back and forth, invariably with

interpretation. The disparity appears, for

instance, as usually some number of Chinese

characters (at least in classics) translates into

say 2 to 4-times the number of English words.

 

(I can cite, just for instance, two (western)

experimental studies I ran across over the last

year in Scientific American magazine,

demonstrating aspects of language/culture

specific differences between western and Chinese

perceptual reality. (Can reference and present them on request.))

 

For instance, Jeffery Yuen has fluent mastery in

his native Cantonese (and Chinese script in

general). Being notably intelligent, and immersed

in Western culture (New York City) from a

relatively early age, he's also fluent, has

mastery in English, meaning not just able to

read, write and speak reasonably correctly, but

to grasp and generate complex concepts, images,

and logical processes, and in vivid, practical

terms for the western listener. I believe this is

what makes his presentations so compelling. He

takes non-trivial, non-literal Chinese medical

(and philosophical) notions and brings them to

life in vivid English language; shows, in the

language of our reality, how they reveal insight

into the common human reality (e.g. physiology,

pathology, treatment, and whole life issues).

 

He is also a walking encyclopedia of western

bio-chemical knowledge, in addition to Chinese

medical knowledge (old and new), and discovers

parallels and mappings, not by mish-mashing the

frameworks, but by focusing towards the depth of

the subject matter the human condition in terms

of health. A master of western medicine, beyond

the technicalities, has an intimate feeling for

issues of human life and health. A master of

Chinese medicine (in Dr. Shen's sense), has an

intimate feeling for issues of human life and

health. They are not the same (perceptions,

feeling, sense (note: Richard Wilhelm translates

(Chinese) Dao as (German) " Sinn " anglicized

sometimes as " sense " ) in both, even in a single

practitioner. They can resonate with each other,

trigger expansion of viewpoint in each other, but

remain distinct frameworks. A huge advantage of

this dual perspective, though, is that they can

form a sort of triangulation on the subject

matter, revealing more of what is there in

itself, by virtue of being able to recognize, by

comparison, and filter what the LIMITATIONS are

in each individual framework, and hence freedom

from mistaking those LIMITATIONS for essential

features of the subject matter. A

bio-technological framework, as well as a

Jing-Qi-Shen etc. dynamic framework, are both models, not life itself.

 

Mastery in pulse reading can not be a substitute

for state-of-the-art lab testing and imaging

know-how. Bio-technical analysis cannot replicate

the information in (classical) pulse reading.

Each can supply dimensions to what the other is

inherently blind to, and in the interchange, help

each other escape all too common delusions that

can result from their respective limitations.

 

" … self reinforcing experiences… "

 

From discussions with Paul Unschuld, and

material in his broad-stroked book 'Was ist

Medizin " , it's clear his beliefs lie with modern

scientific medicine, notwithstanding his immense

respect for Chinese medicine, particularly in

terms of history. But when pressed, he, from his

appreciation of history and related perspectives

such as anthropology and ethnography,

acknowledges that all human knowledge amounts

basically to shared belief systems. Including the

most brilliant and self-evident (to those who

share it's premises) achievements of modern

science. To my cat, to the passing thunderstorm,

to the half-moon circling above, the edifices of

both (classical) Chinese medicine and (modern)

Western medicine are little more than strange,

self-centered foibles of human kind.

 

Evidence is what groups, collectively, chose to

accept as " reality " . We chuckle at the

mass-delusionary world view of (European)

medieval religious culture. For them, it was

self-evident and sufficient reality. Across

recent generations, scientists struggle with some

embarrassment at what their forebearers took, a

couple decades ago, to be it's best estimate of

what is real, e.g. medically. How will

scientists, in say 400 years, regard our current

worldview? Unless history undergoes some magical

transformation (I recently read a remark that

every generation thinks of itself (at least in

the West) as the most epochally significant.)

 

In fact, Unschuld speaks of the value of the

history of Chinese medicine (for him in his role

as teacher of western medical history to medical

students) lying in lessons to be gleaned from its

2000 year or so relative continuum of

social-political-medical matrix. while in Western

history is found no such continuum spanning more

than about 300 years (very possibly including the current period).

 

Life, death and illness goes on more or less the

same, with slowly evolving human form and

function, and continuous adaptation of the rest

of the biosphere (including " pathogens " ). The

theoretical-technological systems we use to cope

are viewable historically as our transitory

" cages " which both give us some protection and

sense of ideological safety, and also entrap us.

This concept of cage is in fact a principle

thematic device for Unschuld in " Was ist Medizin " .

 

Sorry if I rattle some people's cages with my

ramblings (e.g. Guy Porter). Please don't

hesitate to give mine a good shaking in return.

 

 

 

 

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Chris,

I enjoyed your post as an essay on the relationship of Chinese

medicine to biomedicine. I think you should polish it up and publish

it in a CM journal of your choice. Your sentiments are well-taken,

and provide much food for thought.

 

Having spent much of the last 25 years trying to master the art

of pulse diagnosis, I couldn't agree more that the goal is not to

necessarily detect morphological tissue changes or biomedical disease

states, although I have been able to detect high cholesterol

(hyperlipoproteinemia) tendencies with astonishing accuracy. Rather

the goal is to determine aberrations of the relatively simple picture

of health and equilibrium into the complexity of patterns of

disharmony which can result in disease tendencies or disease itself.

 

I've worked with Nan Jing and Li Shih-zhen pulse systems,

especially as developed by Michael Broffman at the Pine St. clinic

(Nan Jing), and have come to realize that there are a number of

'maps' that are used both in pulse diagnosis and pattern

differentiation in Chinese medicine. These maps can be used

separately or in an overlay, like reading wilderness maps that focus

on topography, altitude, hydrology and ground cover. The maps are

tools to interpret the 'data' of what the body presents to us,

nothing more and nothing less. One can use five phase, zang-fu, jing-

luo, six channel and other maps according to the circumstances facing

us with each patient and clinical scenario.

 

There are a number of possibilities of development in our

profession, whether a more integrative one or more classical one, and

I'd like to see them all happen, but not at the expense of the rich

substrate of philosophy that supports what it is we practice. Today

I read an advertisement from a colleague who claims to practice a

'fully integrated medicine totally evidence-based'. When the

criteria for evidence in the modern medical culture is based, as you

point out, on data, this can be a dangerous thing for Chinese

medicine, especially when there is little data that supports, for

example, the use of polypharmacy herbal prescriptions chosen by

pattern differentiation. Data can and will be always interpreted,

and since Chinese medicine is based largely on the individual

practitioner/patient encounter, we need a different kind of

'measurement' that is sensitive to the kind of 'data' we perceive

from pulse, tongue, palpation and questioning (naked sense diagnosis)

as opposed to technological data. These kinds of studies may be more

challenging, but ultimately this is what must be done.

 

 

 

On Mar 23, 2006, at 3:56 AM, wrote:

 

> Chinese language, consciousness, awareness,

> culture constitutes a distinct " reality " relative

> to the western correlates. They are two disparate

> reality systems. Many, most individuals (in the

> CM/TCM field) are anchored (or " caged " , see

> below) in one or the other. Some few master both.

> But those that truly do, know that they are

> distinct perspectives; one can shift between the

> two, they can be overlaid, mined for

> convergences, parallels, etc., but remain

> distinct. Just like when one is fluent in both

> English and Chinese and can switch between the

> two. Short of a neurological disorder, one does

> not mish-mash the two languages together. One can

> translate back and forth, invariably with

> interpretation. The disparity appears, for

> instance, as usually some number of Chinese

> characters (at least in classics) translates into

> say 2 to 4-times the number of English words.

 

 

 

 

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" The pulse reveals the patient's constitution, previous illnesses,

early insults to normal physiology, environmental stressors, trauma,

lifestyle, emotions and behavior. Pulse diagnosis can also predict

possible future pathologies with accuracy. " Leon Hammer

 

Must be something in there we can test.

 

Kelvin

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine ,

< wrote:

>

> 1) Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:00:06 -0000 Kevin

> <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> >One thing might be really interesting to try

> and will give Asian medicine a boost in the arm

> is to do a study with Leon Hammer, Ross Rosen or

> Will Morris. If they can use their pulse

> diagnosis to show things like Breast Cancer,

> Heart Conditions such as aortic aneurysm and then

> show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the diagnoses.

>

> To my understanding, the claim (of the S-H pulse

> system and others) is not that mastery in pulse

> reading is equivalent, or intended to

> pin-pointing western Dx, but rather a deep and

> reliable detection of physiology and pathology in

> terms of jing, yin/yang, qi/blood/fluids,

> channels and zangfu dynamics and not just at the

> abstract level that many of us know from TCM

> school training, but from observation and

> experience of the reality symbolized by these

> terms. I.e. as a perspective on the human organism and its

eu-/dys-functioning.

>

> Leon Hammer has related a case where he detected

> a serious, if perhaps subtle disturbance in

> " liver " functionality in a patient's pulse, and

> advised the patient to have his physician check

> out, or refer out for thorough hepatic

> evaluation. (Apparently, Leon was not treating as

> a Western primary care physician.) Test results

> were negative (in terms of the status quo of

> biomedical testing, probably a decade or so ago);

> the PCP had a good laugh over it. A few years

> later, the patient died of liver cancer. The

> spouse sued, and, of course, lost the case. My

> understanding is that Leon did not claim to

> pinpoint or predict liver cancer, but some

> process which could/would lead to something

> comparably serious, AND the timeframe. He does, I

> find, at times posit more or less close matches

> between what the pulse reveals to him and

> biomedical diagnoses. (In my memory most notably

> the pattern for imminent CVA, which, BTW, might

> be a good candidate for a clinical trial along

> the lines Kevin suggests). He (Leon) has lived

> that (physician) perspective across a long

> career. But also has long and deep experience

> from the TAM (Traditional Asian Medicine, to

> borrow a phrase from the FDA) frame of

> understanding; AND can see the parallels and

> convergences between them. The bottom line in

> both (all!) medical systems, well-understood and

> well-applied, is to reveal and access realities

> of the human condition. The goal, purpose, I

> believe for all of us, is to probe this; the Dx

> system, whatever flavor it may be, is secondary.

> But it is my understanding that Leon does not

> confound the two systems, nor claim that the S-H

> pulse system is intended to pin-pointing ICD diagnoses.

>

> " Breast Cancer " , " aortic aneurysm " , etc. these

> are biomedical abstractions. Yes, objectively

> " real " , mechanically indisputable, of course, but

> abstracted from the complex of etiological

> possibilities (prevention), as well as from the

> complex of management/cure/healing both areas

> which encompass human lifestyle, belief systems;

> constitutional, developmental; emotional,

> sensory, cognitive, and " spiritual " interrelating

> dimensions of human behavior.

>

> Note: with a range of examples such as the

> aneurysm, and advanced stage cancers, the

> treatment options are largely clear (though not

> absolutely), i.e. surgery, chemo, radiation etc.

> I suggest expanding Kevin's terms to include more

> things like diabetes, other auto-immune

> syndromes, IBS, COPD, and the like largely the

> functional spectrum (i.e. some large percentage,

> I recall, something like 70% of all inpatient

> medical cases). Then the issues I point to are

> more significant -- where did it really come from

> (how to prevent it), and what are the

> possibilities for effective treatment, medically

> and by means of the patients own powers (lifestyle, intention, etc.)

>

> Dr. John Shen (as in Shen-Hammer) would

> invariably (at the lectures I attended) begin

> with and repeatedly stress that the good Chinese

> doctor's task was not (first and foremost)

> recognizing and curing patent (advanced/organic)

> conditions; but rather working with the patient

> to understand how health/illness relates to the

> whole of his/her life, and furthering the

> practical cultivation of that awareness to

> enhance life. Most of us have probably studied

> TaiJiChuan, GiGong, WuShu, etc., and been taught:

> Jing (bones, blood and guts), Qi (functional

> behavior), and Shen (the proprioception of

> living), AND that Shen/awareness is the end, goal and purpose.

>

> 2) Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:54:22 0800, " Alon Marcus

> DOM " <alonmarcus wrote:

> Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:54:22 -0800

>

> >The problem is not with him but with us as a

> profession that we do not demand to see more

> proof for anything. As an individual he may have

> had some self-reinforcing experiences and

> therefor probably truly believes in his system.

> But until we can really demonstrate statistical

> accuracy i do not believe we can promote such systems as fact.

>

> Tautology: " Statistical accuracy " and " fact " ?

> Fact, in the sense of indisputable refers to

> data, but the usage above implies meaning. But

> meaning is invariably interpretation, is what we

> hold as " truth " (not as non-contradiction, but as

> adequacy of proof). (Look at the multitude of

> re-interpretations of experimental data ( " facts " )

> across recent decades, which have resulted in revised conclusions.)

>

> Chinese language, consciousness, awareness,

> culture constitutes a distinct " reality " relative

> to the western correlates. They are two disparate

> reality systems. Many, most individuals (in the

> CM/TCM field) are anchored (or " caged " , see

> below) in one or the other. Some few master both.

> But those that truly do, know that they are

> distinct perspectives; one can shift between the

> two, they can be overlaid, mined for

> convergences, parallels, etc., but remain

> distinct. Just like when one is fluent in both

> English and Chinese and can switch between the

> two. Short of a neurological disorder, one does

> not mish-mash the two languages together. One can

> translate back and forth, invariably with

> interpretation. The disparity appears, for

> instance, as usually some number of Chinese

> characters (at least in classics) translates into

> say 2 to 4-times the number of English words.

>

> (I can cite, just for instance, two (western)

> experimental studies I ran across over the last

> year in Scientific American magazine,

> demonstrating aspects of language/culture

> specific differences between western and Chinese

> perceptual reality. (Can reference and present them on request.))

>

> For instance, Jeffery Yuen has fluent mastery in

> his native Cantonese (and Chinese script in

> general). Being notably intelligent, and immersed

> in Western culture (New York City) from a

> relatively early age, he's also fluent, has

> mastery in English, meaning not just able to

> read, write and speak reasonably correctly, but

> to grasp and generate complex concepts, images,

> and logical processes, and in vivid, practical

> terms for the western listener. I believe this is

> what makes his presentations so compelling. He

> takes non-trivial, non-literal Chinese medical

> (and philosophical) notions and brings them to

> life in vivid English language; shows, in the

> language of our reality, how they reveal insight

> into the common human reality (e.g. physiology,

> pathology, treatment, and whole life issues).

>

> He is also a walking encyclopedia of western

> bio-chemical knowledge, in addition to Chinese

> medical knowledge (old and new), and discovers

> parallels and mappings, not by mish-mashing the

> frameworks, but by focusing towards the depth of

> the subject matter the human condition in terms

> of health. A master of western medicine, beyond

> the technicalities, has an intimate feeling for

> issues of human life and health. A master of

> Chinese medicine (in Dr. Shen's sense), has an

> intimate feeling for issues of human life and

> health. They are not the same (perceptions,

> feeling, sense (note: Richard Wilhelm translates

> (Chinese) Dao as (German) " Sinn " anglicized

> sometimes as " sense " ) in both, even in a single

> practitioner. They can resonate with each other,

> trigger expansion of viewpoint in each other, but

> remain distinct frameworks. A huge advantage of

> this dual perspective, though, is that they can

> form a sort of triangulation on the subject

> matter, revealing more of what is there in

> itself, by virtue of being able to recognize, by

> comparison, and filter what the LIMITATIONS are

> in each individual framework, and hence freedom

> from mistaking those LIMITATIONS for essential

> features of the subject matter. A

> bio-technological framework, as well as a

> Jing-Qi-Shen etc. dynamic framework, are both models, not life itself.

>

> Mastery in pulse reading can not be a substitute

> for state-of-the-art lab testing and imaging

> know-how. Bio-technical analysis cannot replicate

> the information in (classical) pulse reading.

> Each can supply dimensions to what the other is

> inherently blind to, and in the interchange, help

> each other escape all too common delusions that

> can result from their respective limitations.

>

> " … self reinforcing experiences… "

>

> From discussions with Paul Unschuld, and

> material in his broad-stroked book 'Was ist

> Medizin " , it's clear his beliefs lie with modern

> scientific medicine, notwithstanding his immense

> respect for Chinese medicine, particularly in

> terms of history. But when pressed, he, from his

> appreciation of history and related perspectives

> such as anthropology and ethnography,

> acknowledges that all human knowledge amounts

> basically to shared belief systems. Including the

> most brilliant and self-evident (to those who

> share it's premises) achievements of modern

> science. To my cat, to the passing thunderstorm,

> to the half-moon circling above, the edifices of

> both (classical) Chinese medicine and (modern)

> Western medicine are little more than strange,

> self-centered foibles of human kind.

>

> Evidence is what groups, collectively, chose to

> accept as " reality " . We chuckle at the

> mass-delusionary world view of (European)

> medieval religious culture. For them, it was

> self-evident and sufficient reality. Across

> recent generations, scientists struggle with some

> embarrassment at what their forebearers took, a

> couple decades ago, to be it's best estimate of

> what is real, e.g. medically. How will

> scientists, in say 400 years, regard our current

> worldview? Unless history undergoes some magical

> transformation (I recently read a remark that

> every generation thinks of itself (at least in

> the West) as the most epochally significant.)

>

> In fact, Unschuld speaks of the value of the

> history of Chinese medicine (for him in his role

> as teacher of western medical history to medical

> students) lying in lessons to be gleaned from its

> 2000 year or so relative continuum of

> social-political-medical matrix. while in Western

> history is found no such continuum spanning more

> than about 300 years (very possibly including the current period).

>

> Life, death and illness goes on more or less the

> same, with slowly evolving human form and

> function, and continuous adaptation of the rest

> of the biosphere (including " pathogens " ). The

> theoretical-technological systems we use to cope

> are viewable historically as our transitory

> " cages " which both give us some protection and

> sense of ideological safety, and also entrap us.

> This concept of cage is in fact a principle

> thematic device for Unschuld in " Was ist Medizin " .

>

> Sorry if I rattle some people's cages with my

> ramblings (e.g. Guy Porter). Please don't

> hesitate to give mine a good shaking in return.

>

>

>

>

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So he actually went to the Dr. because of his dog? Thats great. Mans

best friend, indeed!

 

Chinese Medicine , lyeric100

wrote:

>

> I have a patient now whose dog started acting strangely whenever

he went to

> the bathroom. Apparently she would sniff around and then stand and

stare at

> him. He went to the Dr. because of her behaviour and was

diagnosed with

> prostate cancer. He was the patient I wrote into the group about

a couple of weeks

> ago re;post surgical impotence.

>

> Marylee

>

>

>

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Guest guest

maybe you should e-mail Michael Broffman at the Pine Street Clinic...he is

always open to

suggestions...or Nicholas who is the PR person. They have been working on this

for a long time...

seems like they are having some success. If you need info for them I am happy

to get it to you.

-

leabun1<leabun1

To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\

@>

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 3:17 PM

Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea)

 

 

Just to be tangential, as usual. Has anyone else read about how they

are using dogs to " sniff " out breast cancer? Im not making this up,

apparantly the dogs can be trained to detect metabolic changes that

effect the smell of a patients breath in breast cancer in the early

stages. They are trying to use this info to create an " artificial

nose " , if you will. The mind boggles. Maybe they should try pigs for

greater smell acuity. :-)

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\

@>, " acupuncturebeverlyhill

s " <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> It's would be a big step forward if it worked. Early detection of

> breast cancer, and maybe John Ridder would have been diagnosed

with an

> aortic aneurysm instead of a heart attack.

> Is it worth the risk to test it scientifically? He has a lot

invested

> in his pulse diagnosis so you need to understand that if the test

> results shows no real correlations he would take a huge loss to his

> income and identity.

>

>

> Kelvin

>

>

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\

@>, " Alon Marcus

DOM "

> <alonmarcus@> wrote:

> >

> > I have tried to get Leon to do something like that but got

nowhere

> as usual

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Oakland, CA 94609

> >

> >

<http:///>

> > -

> > acupuncturebeverlyhills

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\

@>

> > Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 PM

> > Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea)

> >

> >

> > One thing might be really interesting to try and will give

Asian

> > medicine a boost in the arm is to do a study with Leon Hammer,

Ross

> > Rosen or Will Morris. If they can use their pulse diagnosis

to show

> > things like Breast Cancer, Heart Conditions such as aortic

aneurysm

> > and then show using blood tests or MRIs to validate the

diagnoses.

> >

> > Kelvin

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\

@>,

petetheisen

> > <petetheisen@> wrote:

> > >

> > > mike Bowser wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Mike!

> > >

> > > Recalling Phil's contribution the other day:

> > >

> > >

<http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.pdf<http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/latov.p\

df>>

> > >

> > > Research has its place, but both Western and TCM use case

study and

> > > other experience based practices as well and will for the

> foreseeable

> > > future. It would be helpful to have a list of the stuff that

is

> research

> > > based and a list of stuff that is empirically established for

> the time

> > > being. If such a list is developed I would be happy to post

it

> on my web

> > > site.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Pete

> > > > I find this an interesting idea and yet problematic.

Interesting

> > > > from the point of view that much of medicine seems to be

> leaning the

> > > > direction of so-called evidence based procedures due to

HMO's and

> > > > insurance companies.

> > > <snip>

> > > >> Hang on in there!

> > > >>

> > > >> I too am involved with running a Masters degree in

Acupuncture

> > > >> (Coventry University, UK) and we also teach " Evidence

based

> > > >> practice " modules alongside the acupuncture modules. If

we don't

> > > >> understand the way research of this kind is done, we will

> never be

> > > >> able to change it. I agree that there is a lot of poor

quality

> > > >> Western acupuncture research

> > > <snip>

> > > >> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/Chinese

> Medicine at

> > > >> University of Western Sydney and we have received much

criticism

> > > >> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1

&

> 2' as

> > > >> compulsory

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

> Medicine Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>

> >

> > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

>

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145<http://toolbar.thebizpl\

ace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145>

> >

> >

>

<http://groups.ya\

hoo.com> and

> adjust accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

outside

> the group requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> absolutely necessary.

> >

> >

> >

> >

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Guest guest

DrGRPorter wrote:

<snip>

> seems to be a distinct speaking in this group towards letting

> everyone " go their own way " and that every opinion or proposition is

> okay if everyone has their own truth.

 

Hi Dr. Porter!

 

Wow, deja vu all over again! Too many old liberal arts grads in TCM.

 

" . . . the principal infatuations of today revolve around the social

sciences, those disciplines that can accommodate any opinion and about

which the most reckless conjecture cannot be discredited. "

 

Bragging rights to whoever can identify the source. Won't be that hard.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

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Guest guest

Pete,

 

I am not sure of what you speak as many people, myself included, think that

this is the most conservative time we have ever known (for me since Nixon).

We need new ideas and ways to address problems (healthcare for us) not the

same old conservative rhetoric about how wonderful things are while they

continue to decline. I think that we have become stagnant or conservative

within our profession as well. There is a growing disconnect w/i the

profession that has some moving us forward (doctoral programs and

integrative education come to mind) and others wanting to try to wait things

out in hopes that this terrible time will pass us by. I do not think we can

last if we remain focused upon our fears. Let's get more progressive in

this battle as many things that need to change are interconnected. This

reminds me of the title, " The Web That Has No Weaver " .

 

The one thing that we have not done well is to provide support for

individual choice (professional practice) and yet move the profession

forward as a whole.

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

 

>petetheisen <petetheisen

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: The place of research in TCM (an idea)

>Fri, 24 Mar 2006 03:31:56 -0500

>

>DrGRPorter wrote:

><snip>

> > seems to be a distinct speaking in this group towards letting

> > everyone " go their own way " and that every opinion or proposition is

> > okay if everyone has their own truth.

>

>Hi Dr. Porter!

>

>Wow, deja vu all over again! Too many old liberal arts grads in TCM.

>

> " . . . the principal infatuations of today revolve around the social

>sciences, those disciplines that can accommodate any opinion and about

>which the most reckless conjecture cannot be discredited. "

>

>Bragging rights to whoever can identify the source. Won't be that hard.

>

>Regards,

>

>Pete

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Guest guest

Good ol' Spiro Agnew. Now on that note, remember listers, the list is

non-political.

 

Thanks,

 

Mark (list owner)

 

Quoting petetheisen <petetheisen:

 

> Hi Dr. Porter!

>

> Wow, deja vu all over again! Too many old liberal arts grads in TCM.

>

> " . . . the principal infatuations of today revolve around the social

> sciences, those disciplines that can accommodate any opinion and about

> which the most reckless conjecture cannot be discredited. "

>

> Bragging rights to whoever can identify the source. Won't be that hard.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

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