Researching Pattern Diagnosis: JAMA IBS Study (was pregnancy...)

[Guest guest]

Here is the famous IBS paper. (Individualized formulas were reported not

significantly more effective than standard ones.)

 

JAMA. 1998 Nov 11;280(18):1585-9 http://tinyurl.com/osdle

 

Cheers,

 

Jonah Hershowitz

 

> Message: 18

> Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:47:53 -0800

> " " <alonmarcus

> Re: Re: pregnancy tx's

>

> the basically had both individual dx and fixed formula pt. The patients

received their herbs from a pharmacy that would either give a placebo or the

real formula.

> That is one example of a well done study on CM. There are many ways we can

study CM and still keep the integrity of CM as well as the scientific

method. Anything else is an excuse

>

>

>

--

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[Guest guest]

To me, the more important fact is the statement following what Jonah quoted:

On follow-up 14 weeks after completion of treatment, only the individualized

CHM treatment group maintained improvement.

 

Mike L.

 

Jonah <jonah wrote:

Here is the famous IBS paper. (Individualized formulas were reported not

significantly more effective than standard ones.)

 

JAMA. 1998 Nov 11;280(18):1585-9 http://tinyurl.com/osdle

 

Cheers,

 

Jonah Hershowitz

 

> Message: 18

> Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:47:53 -0800

> " " <alonmarcus

> Re: Re: pregnancy tx's

>

> the basically had both individual dx and fixed formula pt. The patients

received their herbs from a pharmacy that would either give a placebo or the

real formula.

> That is one example of a well done study on CM. There are many ways we can

study CM and still keep the integrity of CM as well as the scientific

method. Anything else is an excuse

>

>

>

--

Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f

 

Sponsor:

Volo Lisbona A/R con Opodo da 193€ tutto incluso!

Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=4936 & d=20060323

 

 

 

 

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and adjust

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[Guest guest]

the effects were quite modest however

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Mike Liaw

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:14 AM

Re: Researching Pattern Diagnosis: JAMA IBS Study (was

pregnancy...)

 

 

To me, the more important fact is the statement following what Jonah quoted:

On follow-up 14 weeks after completion of treatment, only the individualized

CHM treatment group maintained improvement.

 

Mike L.

 

Jonah <jonah wrote:

Here is the famous IBS paper. (Individualized formulas were reported not

significantly more effective than standard ones.)

 

JAMA. 1998 Nov 11;280(18):1585-9 http://tinyurl.com/osdle

 

Cheers,

 

Jonah Hershowitz

 

> Message: 18

> Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:47:53 -0800

> " " <alonmarcus

> Re: Re: pregnancy tx's

>

> the basically had both individual dx and fixed formula pt. The patients

received their herbs from a pharmacy that would either give a placebo or the

real formula.

> That is one example of a well done study on CM. There are many ways we can

study CM and still keep the integrity of CM as well as the scientific

method. Anything else is an excuse

>

>

>

--

Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f

 

Sponsor:

Volo Lisbona A/R con Opodo da 193? tutto incluso!

Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=4936 & d=20060323

 

 

 

 

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ha!

 

This is one of my points. . ..

 

Mike and I interpret the data to mean that individualized treatment

works better in the long run (am I right Mike?)

 

You interpret it as modest improvement, therefore not significant?

 

Interpretation of data is unavoidable, the observer is a fact of life

in research.

 

 

On Mar 23, 2006, at 9:55 AM, wrote:

 

> the effects were quite modest however

>

>

>

>

>

>

> To me, the more important fact is the statement following what

> Jonah quoted:

> On follow-up 14 weeks after completion of treatment, only the

> individualized CHM treatment group maintained improvement.

>

> Mike L.

>

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

Exactly.

Individualized treatment is a treasure.

 

Mike L.

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

Ha!

 

This is one of my points. . ..

 

Mike and I interpret the data to mean that individualized treatment

works better in the long run (am I right Mike?)

 

You interpret it as modest improvement, therefore not significant?

 

Interpretation of data is unavoidable, the observer is a fact of life

in research.

 

 

On Mar 23, 2006, at 9:55 AM, wrote:

 

> the effects were quite modest however

>

>

>

>

>

>

> To me, the more important fact is the statement following what

> Jonah quoted:

> On follow-up 14 weeks after completion of treatment, only the

> individualized CHM treatment group maintained improvement.

>

> Mike L.

>

 

 

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Zev

I did not say not significant. I said modest that is a totally different issue

and i believe a patient focused one. It is definitely significant, and for us as

professionals quite important, but when you look at the actual numbers you see

the improvements were quite modest. The degree of improvement to me is just as

impotent as statistical significance when assessing any treatment. Zev meth can

be quite objective and that is why is needed to moderate any observer bias

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:57 AM

Re: Researching Pattern Diagnosis: JAMA IBS Study (was

pregnancy...)

 

 

Ha!

 

This is one of my points. . ..

 

Mike and I interpret the data to mean that individualized treatment

works better in the long run (am I right Mike?)

 

You interpret it as modest improvement, therefore not significant?

 

Interpretation of data is unavoidable, the observer is a fact of life

in research.

 

On Mar 23, 2006, at 9:55 AM, wrote:

 

> the effects were quite modest however

>

>

>

>

>

>

> To me, the more important fact is the statement following what

> Jonah quoted:

> On follow-up 14 weeks after completion of treatment, only the

> individualized CHM treatment group maintained improvement.

>

> Mike L.

>

 

 

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Alon,

I had to look a few times at your post. I assume you mean math,

as meth is hardly objective. Blows out the brain pretty quickly, I

think.

 

Z'ev

On Mar 23, 2006, at 11:58 AM, wrote:

 

> Zev

> I did not say not significant. I said modest that is a totally

> different issue and i believe a patient focused one. It is

> definitely significant, and for us as professionals quite

> important, but when you look at the actual numbers you see the

> improvements were quite modest. The degree of improvement to me is

> just as impotent as statistical significance when assessing any

> treatment. Zev meth can be quite objective and that is why is

> needed to moderate any observer bias

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

zev

obviously

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:03 PM

Re: Researching Pattern Diagnosis: JAMA IBS Study (was

pregnancy...)

 

 

Dear Alon,

I had to look a few times at your post. I assume you mean math,

as meth is hardly objective. Blows out the brain pretty quickly, I

think.

 

Z'ev

On Mar 23, 2006, at 11:58 AM, wrote:

 

> Zev

> I did not say not significant. I said modest that is a totally

> different issue and i believe a patient focused one. It is

> definitely significant, and for us as professionals quite

> important, but when you look at the actual numbers you see the

> improvements were quite modest. The degree of improvement to me is

> just as impotent as statistical significance when assessing any

> treatment. Zev meth can be quite objective and that is why is

> needed to moderate any observer bias