Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even) needling)

May 18, 2006

Maybe I read you wrong Ray.....the patients did know that the experiment was

taking place, just like a regular medical study.

Kind regards

Dermot

-

" Ray Ford " <ray

Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:50 AM

RE: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

Dermot,

The qoute below,taken from your post is very interesting BUT unless each

patient knee the 'experiment " was taking place.

I have not seen the documentary but reading between the lines of your post

it seems the patients did not know?

If this WAS the case it is very very bad medicine IMO.These people were

little more than lab rats.Rather than be proud of his claim,the opposite

should be true.This is of course IF THEY DID KNOW,which seems unlikely.This

is blatant and unethical,too horible to contemplate where it might lead,how

on earth did he pull it off.

What next?David Coperfield's home surgery kit ?

Ray Ford

-a knee surgeon in the US who has made an amazing discovery. In an research

trial, he gave a group of his patients a fake operation. He opened them up -

but instead of carrying out the usual procedure - simply sowed them back up

again having done nothing at all. Incredibly, this group of patients did as

well as those who had the real procedure. When asked about this Kathy made

the point that these people got better even though they hadn't received any

treatment at all. But the knee surgeon corrected her - " these people got

better, they got treatment it just wasn't the treatment that they thought

they got "

_____

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:51 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

Our thoughts and our beliefs cause real and scientifically measurable

bio-chemical changes in our bodies and science proves this. The point is

that belief/placebo plays a major role (sometimes the major role) and has

been proven to work on everything from the common cold to cancer. I'm not

saying that placebo alone is more effective than all treatments, all

medications and all surgery. No, that would just be plain silly. But

belief plays a major role in all treatments even drug treatments when drug

has been proven to be effective. Thats why ALL drugs including those used

to treat bacterial infection and hepatitis have to be tested in trials

against a placebo. If belief could be completely discounted, just the way

you completely discounted it in your first e-mail about the monkey

acupuncturists, then drugs trialed for these conditions would not have to be

tested against a placebo. But all proper medical research trials have to be

scientific and not based on any emotional bias and therefore have to take

into consideration placebo (belief).

Drugs are only classified as effective when they are MORE effective than a

placebo. So for example, if the placebo cures 40% of people and the real

medication cures 50% then the medication can be classified as an effective

treatment. That means that such a drug's effectiveness is 80% attributable

to placebo (belief) and only 20% attributable to the real effect of the

drug. It might surprise you just how many drugs are classified as effective

by the FDA and similar bodies, even though the drugs are only marginally

more effective than placebos/belief (perhaps only a few percentage points).

You'd do well to take a fresh look at this and get a fuller understanding of

what the power of belief and intention could mean for your clients.....

If you ever get a chance to see this well put together BBC documentary you

should (see link below). In this documentary the scientist Kathy Sykes met

a knee surgeon in the US who has made an amazing discovery. In an research

trial, he gave a group of his patients a fake operation. He opened them up -

but instead of carrying out the usual procedure - simply sowed them back up

again having done nothing at all. Incredibly, this group of patients did as

well as those who had the real procedure. When asked about this Kathy made

the point that these people got better even though they hadn't received any

treatment at all. But the knee surgeon corrected her - " these people got

better, they got treatment it just wasn't the treatment that they thought

they got "

http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419

<http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=27419 & jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fv

iewer & sessionID=-1147903488051 & entityName=object>

& jsp=prog_pages%2Ftemplate%2Fviewer & sessionID=-1147903488051 & entityName=obje

ct

Kind regards

Dermot

-

" daomsnow " <don83407

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:31 PM

Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

> You're absolutely right, placebo plays a big role in all medicines.

> However, it is not what makes the medicine work when placebo is not

> the cure. It is the medicine. It is not the intent or the belief.

> The next time you get a bacterial infection, or Hepatitis, try " just

> believing " and see where it gets you. I'll take the medicine thank

> you.

>

> Dr. Snow

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Dermot

> O'Connor " <dermot wrote:

>>

>> Don,

>>

>> I think you are missing the point. A monkey wouldn't give a

> patient any

>> confidence in their ability to treat illness. How could a monkey

> have

>> intention of curing their illness. The FACT is that intention and

> the

>> belief that a treatment will work applies to ALL medicine, Oriental

> Medicine

>> and Western Medicine. It might be hard to accept -

> and " conventional "

>> doctors find it particularly hard to accept, but belief that a

> treatment

>> will work plays a hugely significant role in the success or failure

> of any

>> treatment. Scientific studies have shown that broadly speaking

> almost 40%

>> of illnesses are curable by this mental intention alone (on the

> part of the

>> patient) and of the pharmaceuticals that have been proven to work

>> approximately 50% of their " curative " powers has to be attributed

> to this

>> mental belief. This is often disparagingly known as the placebo

> effect,

>> which is frequently misunderstood as a fake cure for an imagined

> illness.

>> The placebo effect is in fact the opposite, it's a real and proven

> cure for

>> a scientifically confirmed illness. Why this is the case is still

> a

>> complete mystery but there isn't anything wrong or illegitimate

> with

>> harnessing this powerful effect.

>>

>> Kind regards

>>

>> Dermot

>>

>> -

>> " daomsnow " <don83407

>> <Chinese Medicine >

>> Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:18 AM

>> Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral

> (Even)

>> needling)

>>

>> I have many students that believe the practioners intention to be

>> important in acupuncture. However, I don't at all share that view.

>> If I treat someone and they or I MUST believe it (or intend it to

>> work), then we are not practicing medicine at all.

>>

>> Let me explain. If you have, for instance, pheumonia from strep and

>> I give you amoxycillan. Do you or the patient have to believe that

>> it will work? Or will it work despite you intent of belief? Of

>> course you know the answer to that one.

>>

>> Therefore, I posit that if I selected the correct point in an

>> acupuncture prescription and taught a monkey how to insert the

> needle

>> into that point, the result would be identical to that which a

>> trained acupuncturist would get. That is the result of a true

>> medicine. If one has to believe in it to work, then we are

>> practicing nothing but faith healing. And that is not what I

>> practice, nor do I believe it is what any of us practice. We

>> practice Oriental Medicine; a true medicine.

>>

>> Respectfully,

>>

>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, MSTOM, L.Ac.

>>

>> In Chinese Medicine , " "

>> <@> wrote:

>> >

>> > Hi David

>> >

>> > > If the order of needling is not important ...

>> >

>> > I asked for evidence (other than from the original texts) that

>> needling order

>> > really IS important.

>> >

>> > > ... then why are the ancient texts written a certain way?

>> >

>> > Probably because the original writers BELIEVED that the order was

>> > important.

>> >

>> > We know that TCM had a significant basis in Shamanism/magic

>> > (numerology, Yi-Intention, etc). If one believes (rightly or

>> wrongly) that

>> > something is necessary, one does it that way.

>> >

>> > > Why are Li Shi Zhen's protocols a certain way only? Why are the

>> Ghost

>> > > points used in a specific protocol, 1st trinity, 2nd trinity

> etc?

>> >

>> > See above. If one believes that one can detetch Ghost- / Demonic-

>> > possession / attachment, it is also necessary to believe in the

> way

>> one can /

>> > must use to do that.

>> >

>> > > You think that a medicine that describes 20+ needling

> techniques,

>> which

>> > > places an onus on practioner intent, would ascribe anything,

>> > > specifically needling order to whimsy or to what is closest to

> the

>> > > acupuncturist's body as they are working? David Appleton L.Ac

>> >

>> > Today, many AP practitioners use no needles; indeed some claim

> that

>> laser

>> > or guasha is even more powerful than needling.

>> >

>> > IMO, there is no one school or method of AP; it is highly

> flexible.

>> IMO, AP

>> > given by a trained professional (especially one trained in

>> Shamanism) works

>> > on many levels - spirit, psyche and soma. No two acupuncturists

>> that I have

>> > observed (whether treating humans or animals) do it exactly the

>> same way.

>> > It is highly individual to each practitioner. All hold certain

>> concepts in

>> > common, but may disagree on other concepts.

>> >

>> > I am trying to get to the core importance of AP: Is it

>> > (a) the POINTS used,

>> > (b) the ORDER and METHODS USED at the same points, or

>> > © the THOUGHT/Yi/Intention/confidence used when concentrating on

>> > those points that is most important?

>> >

>> > Assuming that the points chosen are relevant to the patient's

>> problems, my

>> > gut says © is the most important factor. But I am open to being

>> shown to

>> > be wrong in that.

>> >

>> > Best regards,

>> >

>>

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May 18, 2006

Hi Dermot,

I understand what you are saying.In a single or double blind study the

patients are aware that they MAY receive a placebo, this is common,it is

ethics.I know they are not told WHEN they are receiving it,that would be

pointless,I agree.I really was pointing out that the same applies to our

medicine,that is to say,IF we are aware of a placebo effect and want to

enhance it INTENTIONALLY then I think our clients have a right to know and I

do discuss this with new patients,I believe that we could be guilty of

manipulation if we do not.In your post you said you would like to increase

the effect,I think your clients need to know that.

As for the surgery on the knees,I had not seen it,I just found it hard to

believe ANYONE would volunteer for the possibility of Sham Surgery,maybe its

just me.

Ray Ford

_____

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Dermot

O'Connor

Thursday, May 18, 2006 10:18 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Needling ORDER and Method (BU v XIE v Neutral (Even)

needling)

Ray,

Sorry but what you are saying isn't quite true. In a single-blind or double

blind placebo study you simply can't tell the patients when they are

receiving the placebo. If you do then it just isn't a blinded study

anymore.

It was a thoroughly scientific study, people knew that they were potentially

going to receive " sham " surgery. Regardless of that, the results were the

same between the two groups. If you tell someone they are receiving a

placebo then the belief in the treatment disappears and along with it the

potential healing power.

Regards