Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Can anyone shed some light, or let me know if they've ever seen this sort of symptom before?? My patient, a 58 year old woman complaining of upper back/neck tension with no specific injury began having upper body " jerks " whenever she tries to relax. These jerks didn't exist before her first acupuncture treatment, but began afterwards. Her muscle tension decreased then, though. The " jerks " come in about 6-10 second intervals and she describes them as feeling like they originate in her traps/upper back. It is a very disconcerting thing to observe. Her whole body moves from the momentum of the " jerk " . It reminds me of a pre-sleep twitch, but every few seconds rather than just once. She is a little kidney qi deficient, liver blood deficient and has stagnant qi & blood in her TW/SI/BL channels. The only other remarkable thing about her is that she is an unusually " cheery " person, almost giddy at times. She admits to having difficulty her whole life with being able to relax and that she carries all of her tension in her upper body (where the twitches originate). She has no history of major physical trauma, or emotional trauma. No fractures, no spine injuries, no head trauma, nothing. The keynotes are, they begin when she tries to physically relax. She can get them to stop when she doesn't breathe (like that's a solution!). Sleeping is difficult because they will go on for 2 or 3 hours. She is going to her internist tomorrow to get evaluated or referred to a neurologist. She doesn't jerk at Any ideas?? Thanks in advance. _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 I meant to add that she doesn't jerk at all during the day, when she's busy and moving around. _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Barb Tuesday, May 23, 2006 4:41 PM Chinese Medicine The " jerks " Can anyone shed some light, or let me know if they've ever seen this sort of symptom before?? My patient, a 58 year old woman complaining of upper back/neck tension with no specific injury began having upper body " jerks " whenever she tries to relax. These jerks didn't exist before her first acupuncture treatment, but began afterwards. Her muscle tension decreased then, though. The " jerks " come in about 6-10 second intervals and she describes them as feeling like they originate in her traps/upper back. It is a very disconcerting thing to observe. Her whole body moves from the momentum of the " jerk " . It reminds me of a pre-sleep twitch, but every few seconds rather than just once. She is a little kidney qi deficient, liver blood deficient and has stagnant qi & blood in her TW/SI/BL channels. The only other remarkable thing about her is that she is an unusually " cheery " person, almost giddy at times. She admits to having difficulty her whole life with being able to relax and that she carries all of her tension in her upper body (where the twitches originate). She has no history of major physical trauma, or emotional trauma. No fractures, no spine injuries, no head trauma, nothing. The keynotes are, they begin when she tries to physically relax. She can get them to stop when she doesn't breathe (like that's a solution!). Sleeping is difficult because they will go on for 2 or 3 hours. She is going to her internist tomorrow to get evaluated or referred to a neurologist. She doesn't jerk at Any ideas?? Thanks in advance. _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Hi Barb, My first thought is liver wind from liver blood. How is her BP? Are there any other signs of liver yang rising? Also, might there any phegm issues, which might block the channels? And what about the over-cheeriness? How are heart pulses? Yehuda Barb <bbeale wrote: Can anyone shed some light, or let me know if they've ever seen this sort of symptom before?? My patient, a 58 year old woman complaining of upper back/neck tension with no specific injury began having upper body " jerks " whenever she tries to relax. These jerks didn't exist before her first acupuncture treatment, but began afterwards. Her muscle tension decreased then, though. The " jerks " come in about 6-10 second intervals and she describes them as feeling like they originate in her traps/upper back. It is a very disconcerting thing to observe. Her whole body moves from the momentum of the " jerk " . It reminds me of a pre-sleep twitch, but every few seconds rather than just once. She is a little kidney qi deficient, liver blood deficient and has stagnant qi & blood in her TW/SI/BL channels. The only other remarkable thing about her is that she is an unusually " cheery " person, almost giddy at times. She admits to having difficulty her whole life with being able to relax and that she carries all of her tension in her upper body (where the twitches originate). She has no history of major physical trauma, or emotional trauma. No fractures, no spine injuries, no head trauma, nothing. The keynotes are, they begin when she tries to physically relax. She can get them to stop when she doesn't breathe (like that's a solution!). Sleeping is difficult because they will go on for 2 or 3 hours. She is going to her internist tomorrow to get evaluated or referred to a neurologist. She doesn't jerk at Any ideas?? Thanks in advance. _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Barb wrote: " .... a 58 year old woman complaining of upper back/neck tension with no specific injury began having upper body " jerks " whenever she tries to relax. These jerks didn't exist before her first acupuncture treatment, but began afterwards. Her muscle tension decreased then, though. " It may help us to understand the problem if you could answer the following: 1. Was this the first treatment she received from you? 2. What was the treatment protocol (specific points) used prior to her experiencing these " spasms " . 3. Exactly how long after the treatment did they start? 4. Could emotional aspects of anger (repressed) and/or fear be involved? Regards Rossana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 I've treated restless leg syndrome and tics and twitches in many others. I've never kept track of specific numbers but I can tell you that the vast majority were blood deficient which allowed two things to occur: Internal Wind to arise in the meridian and a tightening of the sinews. Two other frequent contributors were Qi Deficiency and presence of Dmap/Phlegm. I've noticed that if stagnation is concurrent with significant deficiency that moving stasis first can provoke lots of jerking; among other effects. Trying tonification first and then local moving of Qi with moxa or moving cup etc. JOE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Her BP is 134/78; pretty normal. No real signs of Liver Yang Rising or phlegm issues. Her heart pulses are a little thin, but not fast. _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Tuesday, May 23, 2006 5:53 PM Chinese Medicine Re: The " jerks " Hi Barb, My first thought is liver wind from liver blood. How is her BP? Are there any other signs of liver yang rising? Also, might there any phegm issues, which might block the channels? And what about the over-cheeriness? How are heart pulses? Yehuda Barb <bbeale wrote: Can anyone shed some light, or let me know if they've ever seen this sort of symptom before?? My patient, a 58 year old woman complaining of upper back/neck tension with no specific injury began having upper body " jerks " whenever she tries to relax. These jerks didn't exist before her first acupuncture treatment, but began afterwards. Her muscle tension decreased then, though. The " jerks " come in about 6-10 second intervals and she describes them as feeling like they originate in her traps/upper back. It is a very disconcerting thing to observe. Her whole body moves from the momentum of the " jerk " . It reminds me of a pre-sleep twitch, but every few seconds rather than just once. She is a little kidney qi deficient, liver blood deficient and has stagnant qi & blood in her TW/SI/BL channels. The only other remarkable thing about her is that she is an unusually " cheery " person, almost giddy at times. She admits to having difficulty her whole life with being able to relax and that she carries all of her tension in her upper body (where the twitches originate). She has no history of major physical trauma, or emotional trauma. No fractures, no spine injuries, no head trauma, nothing. The keynotes are, they begin when she tries to physically relax. She can get them to stop when she doesn't breathe (like that's a solution!). Sleeping is difficult because they will go on for 2 or 3 hours. She is going to her internist tomorrow to get evaluated or referred to a neurologist. She doesn't jerk at Any ideas?? Thanks in advance. _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 The jerks began the evening of her first acupuncture appointment. I did the following: LI4 LI11 GV20 SP6 LV8 LV3, 5 ear needle protocol KD6, Ah Shi points in her traps and inner border of scapula, GB20 BL18/47, BL23/52, GB34, BL62 I don't get any sort of vibe from this woman that anger or fear are involved any more than with any other patient. _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of rossana_lowgren Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:42 PM Chinese Medicine Re: The " jerks " Barb wrote: " .... a 58 year old woman complaining of upper back/neck tension with no specific injury began having upper body " jerks " whenever she tries to relax. These jerks didn't exist before her first acupuncture treatment, but began afterwards. Her muscle tension decreased then, though. " It may help us to understand the problem if you could answer the following: 1. Was this the first treatment she received from you? 2. What was the treatment protocol (specific points) used prior to her experiencing these " spasms " . 3. Exactly how long after the treatment did they start? 4. Could emotional aspects of anger (repressed) and/or fear be involved? Regards Rossana Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2006 Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 Thanks for your help, Joe. _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Joseph Balensi Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:06 AM Chinese Medicine Re: The Jerks I've treated restless leg syndrome and tics and twitches in many others. I've never kept track of specific numbers but I can tell you that the vast majority were blood deficient which allowed two things to occur: Internal Wind to arise in the meridian and a tightening of the sinews. Two other frequent contributors were Qi Deficiency and presence of Dmap/Phlegm. I've noticed that if stagnation is concurrent with significant deficiency that moving stasis first can provoke lots of jerking; among other effects. Trying tonification first and then local moving of Qi with moxa or moving cup etc. JOE Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2006 Report Share Posted May 25, 2006 Thanks for a great, jerky discussion! I have had several patients with all types of jerks, from the more tremor like to those only happening at night. That one was told to take calcium and magnesium supplements, and he found those supplements to make his night time jerks even worse. So that makes me think this question: if indeed there is an aspect of blood deficiency present, which seems likely, then in each patient, which aspect of the blood is actually deficient? What would we say about that for someone in whom the magnesium supplement actually worked? And otherwise, what would we say about the person in whom the mag supplement did not work? I am a novice with Chinese herbal diagnosis, and I wonder if my question is even valid. Is there a finer distinction to be made once one has defined the presence of Blood Deficiency? Thanks for your consideration, Sandy Sandy Laurel River, LAc 193 Front Street, Suite 2 Farmington, ME 04938 207-778-9700 mountainlaurel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2006 Report Share Posted May 25, 2006 Hi all, Part Two of 'The Development of Wind Aetiology in ' deals with tremors. Below is an extract from part two, which will be published in June's issue of Times. Zhang Zhongjing describes in the classical text 'Synopsis of Prescriptions of the Golden Chamber' how external wind affects the liver; " When the liver is affected by pathogenic wind, the patient feels pain on both flanks and walks with his back bent. His head shakes and eyelids jump. He begins to show a preference for sweet food " (Luo 1995). It wasn't until later; during the Song and Yuan dynasties that internal wind was formulated and these preceding symptoms were categorised as being induced by an internal wind rather than an external pathogen. The mechanisms of internal wind patterns have a clear scale of severity. Blood deficiency patterns cause a mild internal imbalance, yin deficiency with yang rising leads to a stronger imbalance and in cases of extreme heat, the greatest imbalance is seen. In blood deficiency patterns, a quantity of qi becomes unanchored and it floats about as wind. In yin deficiency patterns, yang becomes involved, making the imbalance worse because the volume of qi has increased. In extreme heat patterns, the heat is strong enough to break the link between qi and blood, allowing an abundant amount of qi available to become wind (Scott 2003). The treatment methods used for extreme heat patterns illustrates this as they involve anchoring (settling) the qi down with heavy minerals, such as Dai Zhe Shi (Haematitum), Mu Li (Concha Ostreae) and Long Gu (Os Draconis), to reunite the connection with qi and blood and quell internal wind. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM, MATCM Editor Times +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries www.chinesemedicinetimes.com <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sandy L River 25 May 2006 14:10 Chinese Medicine Re: the jerks Thanks for a great, jerky discussion! I have had several patients with all types of jerks, from the more tremor like to those only happening at night. That one was told to take calcium and magnesium supplements, and he found those supplements to make his night time jerks even worse. So that makes me think this question: if indeed there is an aspect of blood deficiency present, which seems likely, then in each patient, which aspect of the blood is actually deficient? What would we say about that for someone in whom the magnesium supplement actually worked? And otherwise, what would we say about the person in whom the mag supplement did not work? I am a novice with Chinese herbal diagnosis, and I wonder if my question is even valid. Is there a finer distinction to be made once one has defined the presence of Blood Deficiency? Thanks for your consideration, Sandy Sandy Laurel River, LAc 193 Front Street, Suite 2 Farmington, ME 04938 207-778-9700 mountainlaurel Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2006 Report Share Posted May 26, 2006 Hi Sandy I have often considered this question. I have diagnosed blood deficiency and then found varying types of deficiency when the patient had a blood test, from neutropenia to anaemia and many cases where no deficiency was found in the blood test. All I can do then is treat blood deficiency with acupuncture (I don't use Chinese herbs) and ensure that the patient is eating a balanced diet and to that end I often recommend they eat Liver regularly as well as good organic produce/fruit/vegetables. I also think that blood deficiency is linked to hormonal imbalance sometimes rather than a simple nutrient deficiency or of course the nutrient deficiency may cause the hormone imbalance! Food intolerance testing has sometimes been helpful as ridding the patient of intolerances seems to allow a better uptake of nutrients, this is especially true of Coeliac disease. I would be most interested to hear how other practitioners deal with this very common syndrome. Regards Susie > > Message 2 > " Sandy L River " mountainlaurel > Thu May 25, 2006 6:52am(PDT) > Re: the jerks > > Thanks for a great, jerky discussion! > I have had several patients with all types of jerks, from the > more tremor like to those only happening at night. That one was > told to take calcium and magnesium supplements, and he found > those supplements to make his night time jerks even worse. So > that makes me think this question: if indeed there is an aspect > of blood deficiency present, which seems likely, then in each > patient, which aspect of the blood is actually deficient? What > would we say about that for someone in whom the magnesium > supplement actually worked? And otherwise, what would we say > about the person in whom the mag supplement did not work? I am a > novice with Chinese herbal diagnosis, and I wonder if my question > is even valid. Is there a finer distinction to be made once one > has defined the presence of Blood Deficiency? > Thanks for your consideration, > Sandy > > Sandy Laurel River, LAc > 193 Front Street, Suite 2 > Farmington, ME 04938 > 207-778-9700 > mountainlaurel > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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