Vitex agnus castus For Menopause and PMS

[Guest guest]

Hey Anya,

 

You are just not ready to let go yet - huh? ;-p

 

> > Yes Martin Junior. ;-p

 

Afore we kick off .. Martin has long been aware of the issues he and I

strongly disagree on .. Vitex being one. So this was not a back door

statement .. plus he is on this list.

 

> Two minor corrections, Butch. If, by the above statement you meant to imply

> that I only got into debunking false or dangerous claims since I've known

> Martin, that's false. Back in 96 or 97 I frequently posted a 'faq' of sorts

> on the herbal newsgroup titled " Beware of half-baked herbalists " . I also

> frequented the alt.aromatherapy group from that time, again, challenging

> those who posted 'at fairy tale' baloney. Think I heard of Martin first in

> '99 or so.

 

I meant .. that I see both you and Martin as coming across as slayers

of myths, protectors of the ignorant masses and debunkers, just as you

have sorta stated here. I think that is presumptuous on the part of

both of you as it presumes you have all the answers and I don't think

either of you do. I do think that Martin has more answers than you do.

And I think you think you have more than you really have.

 

Debunkers are not necessarily seekers of truth .. they are often seekers

of falsehoods. That is a lot less strenuous than seeking truth as there

is more false information in the world than there is truth. Its

probable that there is room for both types of seekers .. and some good

can come from both types .. but if one concentrates only on finding

faults they might overlook truth because they can become programmed to

be .. as you said .. a skeptic .. if we can't prove it then we ain't

gonna believe it. I'm ready now to start asking the debunkers to prove

that they're right OR that others are wrong .. and that is gonna be

tough in many instances.

 

Aromatherapy is not a science. Lack of proof of one thing is not proof

of another. Those waiting for scientific research in this industry will

be disappointed .. might be better to take up a more interesting hobby.

 

> So Martin may more appropriately be called a brother-in-arms.

 

If that is what you think then right on. He and I are not far apart on

many issues .. and he knows which ones we will likely never agree on.

Sometimes these negative opinions impact the business efforts of honest

people who don't see things in the same way as the one bad-mouthing a

product they offer. If I thought Vitex was dangerous I would not offer

it .. but those who try to encourage others to not purchase a product I

offer are not going to be seen in a good light by me .. they are not

even friendly adversaries .. and I will not allow them to run their

mouths and then run away without challenge.

 

I'm tired of reading negative remarks on most subjects that pop up.

This has tired me for a long time. So I have decided to not take it in

silence, and the Devil take the rest.

 

For example .. I accept that the tested percentages of use of EO for

dermal application found in Plant Aromatics are valid .. but I don't

accept that an oil not tested should not be used simply because it has

not been proven to be safe. I'll be needing proof that it is unsafe ..

and not accepting that lack of proof that it is safe is sufficient to

conclude that it should not be used. Peppermint is a good example.

 

I intend to post on some other oils in the next few days and weeks, and

I expect to read the same kinds of lame objections to some of them. But

its going to be interesting in that I am going to do all I can to force

the objectors to prove their objections are more than personal opinion.

 

When I reply to a post I try to make as many points as I can .. but long

ago I learned that few who like to argue will take the time to address

them .. to agree or disagree and state WHY they disagree without using

generalizations. Some folks use the excuse that they don't like long

posts .. so we wind up with forty-eleven short ones that do little but

muddy the water.

 

I don't accept as credible your objections to the use of Vitex based on

it being unsafe! I think you object because you personally had a less

than desirable experience and have decided to object regardless of what

may be presented that is contrary to your conclusions .. to include the

well laid out info from Barbara. You used your own negative experience

with Vitex to form a conclusion that nobody should use it .. but Barbara

gave the stats and was clear in that its not for everyone. She stated

that those who had problems should stop sniffing. On the other hand,

the info showing its effective for PMS and hot flashes is overwhelming,

and again, not for all folks to use. Her information is at this URL

 

http://www.aromaticsage.com/volume1/2.html

 

A health care practitioner wrote me today .. he lurks on this list .. he

said he is preparing his own post on the subject and his own experiences

will support what Barbara has presented .. the post is on the way.

 

Something else that bothers me more of late .. be it directed at me or

others .. is comments like .. you are stupid or you are foolish if you

do this or that. When I see that in writing I am going to challenge

that person to put up or shut up. And you started your prejudiced post

against Vitex in just such a manner yesterday. That got me riled before

I got half-way through the post.

 

I doubt that people are foolish or stupid if they don't do as others

think they should. I intend to watch my own writings closely too .. I'm

sure I have made that mistake in the past but it won't happen again

unless I can back up my statement with more than opinion. I think its

wiser to say something MIGHT NOT BE WISE than it is to say its foolish.

 

Since 1995, I have slowly become fed up with the entire route-step

industry of AT .. and the so-called experts on everything. There are no

experts in this industry .. none! Those who have known me during that

time know that I work hard to not be mistaken for an AT Practitioner ..

I am one who produces, exports/imports, performs quality control on,

sells and researches essential oils .. and one who uses EO for me and

mine to help us in ways I THINK are proper. There's a big difference

between a user of EO and an AT Practitioner. I think the practice of AT

in the USA stinks .. but the EO smell real nice .. and they work too.

 

> Oh, I just remembered I gave a lecture on aromatherapy in a Tampa store

> selling oils, back in '87. Title? Delights and Dangers in Essential

> Oils. Of course, Martin's scholarly work and publications have

> surpassed anything I've done, since he's made it the core of his

> professional life. And bless him for it.

 

Good for the folks in that store. I salute both of you .. for what you

have done and what you think you have done. My last lecture to a large

group was the conference in Toronto .. the last one I canceled out on

was the NAHA conference in North Carolina ... after I decided to become

an enemy of NAHA .. I couldn't see being two-faced and presenting at the

conference would have been just that. I have no intentions of EVER

lecturing again .. anywhere .. I'd rather go fishing.

 

This is not a core of my life .. nor a profession even. Its something I

do because I need something to do. I'm a retired US Army Officer who

was a Military Police Officer (primary) and Political Military Analyst

(secondary) which allowed me to perform real world missions in both

peacetime and wartime .. followed by five years as a senior corporate

manager .. then as general manager of another corporation, and the owner

of two businesses I kicked off myself. I don't want to do anything else,

I don't care to impress anyone, and I don't intend to stay in this

business all that much longer.

 

> The other correction, posted here 'cause I can't find it in your other

> dozen posts -- vitex can sure be a tree, hence the name Chaste Berry

> Tree.

 

If its all that important that you be right .. then I will concede even

though I don't agree .. but .. have you seen Vitex growing in the wild?

 

> It can grow to 25', and the branches look very nice when 'cleaned up'.

> It is valued for its beauty as a small understory tree, and the berries

> will be called berries until the end of time. Or until folks start

> calling strawberries strawfruit. That's just the way it is.

 

If that is " just the way it is " .. then I will again concede .. and I

agree that many inaccuracies will continue long after I have gone under

snakes. I believe people will continue to call banana plants as banana

trees till Grabriel blows his trumpet. But so I can have warm fuzzies

that I am not just being a nice and peaceful type, can you provide a

credible reference or two for this information? I'm always prepared to

change my opinion in the face of information contrary to my beliefs.

 

> Anya

> http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady

 

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch http://www.AV-AT.com

 

Who .. by the way .. is gonna put Vitex on SALE after while .. being as

this is Thursday and such.