Guest guest Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 I'm mystified. I've suffered from angina for 16 years, and can't seem to make sense out of Dr. Esselstyn's recommendation, to avoid dairy, meat and fish, as a method for the reversal of heart disease. After my diagnosis, 16 years ago, I declined surgery, and shortly thereafter, went on a strict Ornish style diet. I stayed on this diet, religiously, for 4 years. I assume that 4 years would be enough to obtain some relief from heart disease. But, in fact, I had, virtually, crippling angina, 16 years ago, and, after 4 years of obsessively avoiding dairy, meat and fish, on the Ornish diet, I did not see an iota of reduction in my angina. My latest encounter with my cardiologists, reveal that I'm now a candidate for a quadruple bypass, further proof, that those 4 strictly vegetarian years, had zero effect on my progressing arteriosclerosis. It cannot be that avoiding dairy, fish and meat are a sure method for preventing heart disease, otherwise all meat eaters would have heart disease. jp - Fernwoods Fernwoods Sunday, July 12, 2009 1:26 PM << >> Make yourself heart attack proof _The Most Powerful Health Recommendation of Dr. Andrew Weil_ (http://articles.mercola.com/redirect/view.aspx?Email=fernwoods (AT) aol (DOT) com & ReturnUR\ L=http://a rticles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/07/07/The-Most-Powerful-Heal th-Recommendation-of-Dr-Andrew-Weil.aspx) Dr. Weil promotes this as the single most important physical intervention for health. _Make yourself heart attack proof | The Real Food Channel_ (http://www.therealfoodchannel.com/page/25.html) _http://www.therealfoodchannel.com/page/25.html_ (http://www.therealfoodchannel.com/page/25.html) Caldwell Esselstyn MD, chief of surgery at the Cleveland Clinic, discusses his 18-year study whereby he reversed severe heart disease in every patient in his program -- who had all been sent home to die by their cardiologists. Dr. Esselstyn shows you how by changing your diet you can prevent and reverse heart disease. A low-fat plant-based (vegetarian) diet is the key. If you eat no fish, meat , dairy, or oils you will not have heart disease. **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377098x1201454399/aol?redir=http://\ www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd=Jul yExcfooterNO62) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 I think just saying 'meat eaters' is sort of misleading because some people like myself eat meat, but only once a week and then only a little bit. As far as strict vegan goes, that kinda of falls into the category of 'more is not better', and in this case 'none' is not better. I guess the bottom line is moderation, or using lots of moderation and portion control. Just going on the ' all or nothing' virtue is sure to fail. It's like one candy bar isn't going to cause you to be obese, and a little meat is not going to cause clogged arteries. For most people they have a predisposition to develop certain disease processes due to hereditary factors. Some people argue that it's not hereditary factors but it's the way that you were brought up and the food in the household, and that goes back to the nature vs. nurture argument. My personal belief is that it's 'nature', not 'nurture', and I do believe that you developed heart and artery problems due to genetics, not anything you have done unless you were eating steak every day year after year. Then at that point you would have been over the 'moderation' threshold. ________________________________ John Polifronio <counterpnt Thursday, 16 July, 2009 7:25:02 Re: << >> Make yourself heart attack proof I'm mystified. I've suffered from angina for 16 years, and can't seem to make sense out of Dr. Esselstyn's recommendation, to avoid dairy, meat and fish, as a method for the reversal of heart disease. After my diagnosis, 16 years ago, I declined surgery, and shortly thereafter, went on a strict Ornish style diet. I stayed on this diet, religiously, for 4 years. I assume that 4 years would be enough to obtain some relief from heart disease. But, in fact, I had, virtually, crippling angina, 16 years ago, and, after 4 years of obsessively avoiding dairy, meat and fish, on the Ornish diet, I did not see an iota of reduction in my angina. My latest encounter with my cardiologists, reveal that I'm now a candidate for a quadruple bypass, further proof, that those 4 strictly vegetarian years, had zero effect on my progressing arteriosclerosis. It cannot be that avoiding dairy, fish and meat are a sure method for preventing heart disease, otherwise all meat eaters would have heart disease. jp - Fernwoods (AT) aol (DOT) com Fernwoods (AT) aol (DOT) com Sunday, July 12, 2009 1:26 PM << Alternative- Medicine- Forum >> Make yourself heart attack proof _The Most Powerful Health Recommendation of Dr. Andrew Weil_ (http://articles. mercola.com/ redirect/ view.aspx? Email=fernwoods@ aol.com & ReturnUR L=http:// a rticles.mercola. com/sites/ articles/ archive/2009/ 07/07/The- Most-Powerful- Heal th-Recommendation- of-Dr-Andrew- Weil.aspx) Dr. Weil promotes this as the single most important physical intervention for health. _Make yourself heart attack proof | The Real Food Channel_ (http://www.therealf oodchannel. com/page/ 25.html) _http://www.therealf oodchannel. com/page/ 25.html_ (http://www.therealf oodchannel. com/page/ 25.html) Caldwell Esselstyn MD, chief of surgery at the Cleveland Clinic, discusses his 18-year study whereby he reversed severe heart disease in every patient in his program -- who had all been sent home to die by their cardiologists. Dr. Esselstyn shows you how by changing your diet you can prevent and reverse heart disease. A low-fat plant-based (vegetarian) diet is the key. If you eat no fish, meat , dairy, or oils you will not have heart disease. ************ **An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122237 7098x1201454399/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd=Jul yExcfooterNO62) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 , " John Polifronio " <counterpnt wrote: > > I'm mystified. I've suffered from angina for 16 years, and can't > seem to make sense out of Dr. Esselstyn's recommendation, to avoid > dairy, meat and fish, as a method for the reversal of heart > disease. After my diagnosis, 16 years ago, I declined surgery, > and shortly thereafter, went on a strict Ornish style diet. I > stayed on this diet, religiously, for 4 years. I assume that 4 > years would be enough to obtain some relief from heart disease. > But, in fact, I had, virtually, crippling angina, 16 years ago, > and, after 4 years of obsessively avoiding dairy, meat and fish, > on the Ornish diet, I did not see an iota of reduction in my > angina. My latest encounter with my cardiologists, reveal that > I'm now a candidate for a quadruple bypass, further proof, that > those 4 strictly vegetarian years, had zero effect on my > progressing arteriosclerosis. > > It cannot be that avoiding dairy, fish and meat are a sure method > for preventing heart disease, otherwise all meat eaters would have > heart disease. Ornish always credits the Ornish diet for his system's success, but it actually involves much more than that. The Ornish program also includes smoking cessation, exercise, and meditation/stress management. The Ornish diet tends to raise triglycerides and lower HDL, so it could be more accurate to say that the Ornish program works not because of the diet but *in spite* of it. Dr. Michael Eades' Protein Power blog has a number of entries that debunk the Ornish diet. Do a search on " Ornish " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Actually living your life as a vegan is very healthy and there is no need to eat meat. You can get enough protein in your diet thru plants and beans. I am living proof. I am a vegan. Eating meat is a choice and I choose not to eat any animal flesh especially since I am an animal right activist. ---- lynnzy 7/20/2009 9:05:51 PM Re: << >> Make yourself heart attack proof I think just saying 'meat eaters' is sort of misleading because some people like myself eat meat, but only once a week and then only a little bit As far as strict vegan goes, that kinda of falls into the category of 'more is not better', and in this case 'none' is not better. I guess the bottom line is moderation, or using lots of moderation and portion control. Just going on the ' all or nothing' virtue is sure to fail. It's like one candy bar isn't going to cause you to be obese, and a little meat is not going to cause clogged arteries. For most people they have a predisposition to develop certain disease processes due to hereditary factors. Some people argue that it's not hereditary factors but it's the way that you were brought up and the food in the household, and that goes back to the nature vs. nurture argument. My personal belief is that it's 'nature', not 'nurture , and I do believe that you developed heart and artery problems due to genetics, not anything you have done unless you were eating steak every day year after year. Then at that point you would have been over the 'moderation threshold. ________________________________ John Polifronio <counterpnt Thursday, 16 July, 2009 7:25:02 Re: << >> Make yourself heart attack proof I'm mystified. I've suffered from angina for 16 years, and can't seem to make sense out of Dr. Esselstyn's recommendation, to avoid dairy, meat and fish, as a method for the reversal of heart disease. After my diagnosis, 16 years ago, I declined surgery, and shortly thereafter, went on a strict Ornish style diet. I stayed on this diet, religiously, for 4 years. I assume that 4 years would be enough to obtain some relief from heart disease. But, in fact, I had, virtually, crippling angina, 16 years ago, and, after 4 years of obsessively avoiding dairy, meat and fish, on the Ornish diet, I did not see an iota of reduction in my angina. My latest encounter with my cardiologists, reveal that I'm now a candidate for a quadruple bypass, further proof, that those 4 strictly vegetarian years, had zero effect on my progressing arteriosclerosis. It cannot be that avoiding dairy, fish and meat are a sure method for preventing heart disease, otherwise all meat eaters would have heart disease jp - Fernwoods (AT) aol (DOT) com Fernwoods (AT) aol (DOT) com Sunday, July 12, 2009 1:26 PM << Alternative- Medicine- Forum >> Make yourself heart attack proof _The Most Powerful Health Recommendation of Dr. Andrew Weil_ (http://articles. mercola.com/ redirect/ view.aspx? Email=fernwoods@ aol com & ReturnUR L=http:// a rticles.mercola. com/sites/ articles/ archive/2009/ 07/07/The- Most-Powerful- Heal th-Recommendation- of-Dr-Andrew- Weil.aspx) Dr. Weil promotes this as the single most important physical intervention for health. _Make yourself heart attack proof | The Real Food Channel_ (http://www.therealf oodchannel. com/page/ 25.html) _http://www.therealf oodchannel. com/page/ 25.html_ (http://www.therealf oodchannel. com/page/ 25.html) Caldwell Esselstyn MD, chief of surgery at the Cleveland Clinic, discusses his 18-year study whereby he reversed severe heart disease in every patient in his program -- who had all been sent home to die by their cardiologists. Dr. Esselstyn shows you how by changing your diet you can prevent and reverse heart disease. A low-fat plant-based (vegetarian) diet is the key. If you eat no fish, meat , dairy, or oils you will not have heart disease. ************ **An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122237 7098x1201454399/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd=Jul yExcfooterNO62) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Hi Alex Interesting. I've gotten involved in various exercise programs, and invariably failed to achieve results in any of them, for the simple reason, that, though my angina does not prevent me from doing most tasks, it is virtually impossible for me to exercise with any efficiency. I suspect that all these approaches to angina, especially those that place great emphasis on exercise, fail to deal with a " class " of angina sufferers, where the pain becomes unendurable before any profit can be gotten from the exercise. I suspect that this group represents 1 in 30 angina patients. I'm always amazed to see how other so called angina patients, proceed to exercise in many hospital settings or other group efforts, as if they didn't have the angina. I suspect that they've had surgery, or have very mild cases of the condition. I don't smoke. So that leaves the meditation/stress management, as the only remaining of the suggestions you've given for the real reasons the Ornish " diet " seems to work, in many instances. Thanks for your help. jp - Alex Stanley Sunday, July 19, 2009 9:31 AM Re: << >> Make yourself heart attack proof , " John Polifronio " <counterpnt wrote: > > I'm mystified. I've suffered from angina for 16 years, and can't > seem to make sense out of Dr. Esselstyn's recommendation, to avoid > dairy, meat and fish, as a method for the reversal of heart > disease. After my diagnosis, 16 years ago, I declined surgery, > and shortly thereafter, went on a strict Ornish style diet. I > stayed on this diet, religiously, for 4 years. I assume that 4 > years would be enough to obtain some relief from heart disease. > But, in fact, I had, virtually, crippling angina, 16 years ago, > and, after 4 years of obsessively avoiding dairy, meat and fish, > on the Ornish diet, I did not see an iota of reduction in my > angina. My latest encounter with my cardiologists, reveal that > I'm now a candidate for a quadruple bypass, further proof, that > those 4 strictly vegetarian years, had zero effect on my > progressing arteriosclerosis. > > It cannot be that avoiding dairy, fish and meat are a sure method > for preventing heart disease, otherwise all meat eaters would have > heart disease. Ornish always credits the Ornish diet for his system's success, but it actually involves much more than that. The Ornish program also includes smoking cessation, exercise, and meditation/stress management. The Ornish diet tends to raise triglycerides and lower HDL, so it could be more accurate to say that the Ornish program works not because of the diet but *in spite* of it. Dr. Michael Eades' Protein Power blog has a number of entries that debunk the Ornish diet. Do a search on " Ornish " . Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.21/2252 - Release 07/21/09 05:58:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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