Guest guest Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Hi, I have a question about progesterone, estrogen dominance and breast cancer. My confusion is this: in alternative medicine circles, word is that progesterone is protective against breast cancer, and estrogen dominance is really, really bad for that and many other things. So... I get a patient who is perimenopausal, recovering from a mastectomy for invasive carcinoma in the left breast: mucinous type, at least .4 cm. Ductal carcinoma in situ, intermediate-to-high grade, comedo type. So far, she is recovering well. Meanwhile, besides herbs, I start to wonder if checking her hormone levels for estrogen dominance would be a good idea, followed by supplementing with sublingual progesterone if warranted. I asked the most well-known breast cancer specialist here (acupuncturist/herbalist) who is no longer seeing patients (which is the only reason I even treat one or two breast cancer patients - otherwise I always would refer them to him), and he tells me there is evidence that progesterone is an even worse player than estrogen, and that the estrogen- dominance theory is bunk. In no way, shape or form should I give progesterone. I'm wondering if anyone else is up-to-date on this topic and has any other insights to offer, or leads or resources for either confirming or refuting this information. Thanks for any responses! abigail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Hi Abigail, I had the fortune to take a course called Functional Endocrinology with Dr. Corasian from Apex Energetics. The course deals with the question of hormones, feedback loops and the balance we are all striving for from a functional perspective rather than a replacement perspective. The information given during the course is eye opening and can help give reason in a world that tends to look at hormones as good or bad. From my perspective hormonal health is related to the balance of hormones rather than doing away with the bad ones. For this I use a company called Diagnos-techs and use saliva testing. The female hormone panel and an adrenal panel at minimum. Part of the female panel will include a pair of cancer proliferation charts for breast and uterine tendencies. They use the balance of hormones from the data from thousands of tests to chart the tendencies. I really like it and it helps give perspective as to where attention needs to be given. I believe it is a bad idea to suggest that we exclude or give any hormone without first understanding the balance in the patient. As we know, ill health comes from imbalance, and it is balance we strive for. This includes hormones. There are tendencies in our society that push women and men into estrogen dominance, but without finding out what the currant levels are, recommending hormones is a hit or miss proposition that could be deadly. To find out more about the saliva testing, contact Diagnos-techs at _http://www.diagnostechs.com/_ (http://www.diagnostechs.com/) As a side note, it has been suggested that virtually all women with breat problems are low in iodine. Breast tissue supposedly holds more iodine than any tissue other than thyriod. You may choose to do some reading on a product called iodoral. _http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Iodoral.htm_ (http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Iodoral.htm) All the best, Chris In a message dated 8/17/2006 10:23:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, acubabe_2000 writes: Hi, I have a question about progesterone, estrogen dominance and breast cancer. My confusion is this: in alternative medicine circles, word is that progesterone is protective against breast cancer, and estrogen dominance is really, really bad for that and many other things. So... I get a patient who is perimenopausal, recovering from a mastectomy for invasive carcinoma in the left breast: mucinous type, at least .4 cm. Ductal carcinoma in situ, intermediate-to-high grade, comedo type. So far, she is recovering well. Meanwhile, besides herbs, I start to wonder if checking her hormone levels for estrogen dominance would be a good idea, followed by supplementing with sublingual progesterone if warranted. I asked the most well-known breast cancer specialist here (acupuncturist/herbalist) who is no longer seeing patients (which is the only reason I even treat one or two breast cancer patients - otherwise I always would refer them to him), and he tells me there is evidence that progesterone is an even worse player than estrogen, and that the estrogen- dominance theory is bunk. In no way, shape or form should I give progesterone. I'm wondering if anyone else is up-to-date on this topic and has any other insights to offer, or leads or resources for either confirming or refuting this information. Thanks for any responses! abigail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 My understanding is the progesterone is priming the estrogen receptors and therefore is not that great. The idea that it offers protection is not well supported. However, there is increasing research that testosterone has some protective effect and that women may become prone to breast cancer when they age because their testosterone levels go down. I would probably test and discuss that with her. Angela Pf .. - acubabe_2000 Chinese Medicine Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:45 PM Breast Cancer and Hormones Hi, I have a question about progesterone, estrogen dominance and breast cancer. My confusion is this: in alternative medicine circles, word is that progesterone is protective against breast cancer, and estrogen dominance is really, really bad for that and many other things. So... I get a patient who is perimenopausal, recovering from a mastectomy for invasive carcinoma in the left breast: mucinous type, at least .4 cm. Ductal carcinoma in situ, intermediate-to-high grade, comedo type. So far, she is recovering well. Meanwhile, besides herbs, I start to wonder if checking her hormone levels for estrogen dominance would be a good idea, followed by supplementing with sublingual progesterone if warranted. I asked the most well-known breast cancer specialist here (acupuncturist/herbalist) who is no longer seeing patients (which is the only reason I even treat one or two breast cancer patients - otherwise I always would refer them to him), and he tells me there is evidence that progesterone is an even worse player than estrogen, and that the estrogen- dominance theory is bunk. In no way, shape or form should I give progesterone. I'm wondering if anyone else is up-to-date on this topic and has any other insights to offer, or leads or resources for either confirming or refuting this information. Thanks for any responses! abigail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Breast cancers can be estrogen-receptor or progesterone-receptor positive. or neither,or both. The pathology report should say " ER " and " PR " positive or negative. My understanding is that those thst are ER or PR positive are stimulated to grow by these hormones. In that case, it would not be advisable to take progesterone supplements with a PR postive cancer. Hope this helps -- Susan Kol Goodstein, RN --- Angela Pfaffenberger <angela.pf wrote: > My understanding is the progesterone is priming the > estrogen receptors and therefore is not that great. > The idea that it offers protection is not well > supported. However, there is increasing research > that testosterone has some protective effect and > that women may become prone to breast cancer when > they age because their testosterone levels go down. > I would probably test and discuss that with her. > Angela Pf > > > . > - > acubabe_2000 > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:45 PM > Breast Cancer and Hormones > > > Hi, > > I have a question about progesterone, estrogen > dominance and breast cancer. My > confusion is this: in alternative medicine > circles, word is that progesterone is protective > against breast cancer, and estrogen dominance is > really, really bad for that and many > other things. > > So... I get a patient who is perimenopausal, > recovering from a mastectomy for invasive > carcinoma in the left breast: mucinous type, at > least .4 cm. Ductal carcinoma in situ, > intermediate-to-high grade, comedo type. So far, > she is recovering well. > > Meanwhile, besides herbs, I start to wonder if > checking her hormone levels for estrogen > dominance would be a good idea, followed by > supplementing with sublingual > progesterone if warranted. > > I asked the most well-known breast cancer > specialist here (acupuncturist/herbalist) who is > no longer seeing patients (which is the only > reason I even treat one or two breast cancer > patients - otherwise I always would refer them to > him), and he tells me there is evidence > that progesterone is an even worse player than > estrogen, and that the estrogen- > dominance theory is bunk. In no way, shape or form > should I give progesterone. > > I'm wondering if anyone else is up-to-date on this > topic and has any other insights to > offer, or leads or resources for either confirming > or refuting this information. > Thanks for any responses! > abigail > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 So in estrogen-receptor breast cancers, would phyto-estrogens (eg soy products) be contraindicated as well? tx Karen Kol wrote: > Breast cancers can be estrogen-receptor or > progesterone-receptor positive. or neither,or both. > The pathology report should say " ER " and " PR " positive > or negative. My understanding is that those thst are > ER or PR positive are stimulated to grow by these > hormones. In that case, it would not be advisable to > take progesterone supplements with a PR postive > cancer. Hope this helps -- Susan Kol Goodstein, RN > > --- Angela Pfaffenberger <angela.pf > <angela.pf%40comcast.net>> > wrote: > > > My understanding is the progesterone is priming the > > estrogen receptors and therefore is not that great. > > The idea that it offers protection is not well > > supported. However, there is increasing research > > that testosterone has some protective effect and > > that women may become prone to breast cancer when > > they age because their testosterone levels go down. > > I would probably test and discuss that with her. > > Angela Pf > > > > > > . > > - > > acubabe_2000 > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:45 PM > > Breast Cancer and Hormones > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I have a question about progesterone, estrogen > > dominance and breast cancer. My > > confusion is this: in alternative medicine > > circles, word is that progesterone is protective > > against breast cancer, and estrogen dominance is > > really, really bad for that and many > > other things. > > > > So... I get a patient who is perimenopausal, > > recovering from a mastectomy for invasive > > carcinoma in the left breast: mucinous type, at > > least .4 cm. Ductal carcinoma in situ, > > intermediate-to-high grade, comedo type. So far, > > she is recovering well. > > > > Meanwhile, besides herbs, I start to wonder if > > checking her hormone levels for estrogen > > dominance would be a good idea, followed by > > supplementing with sublingual > > progesterone if warranted. > > > > I asked the most well-known breast cancer > > specialist here (acupuncturist/herbalist) who is > > no longer seeing patients (which is the only > > reason I even treat one or two breast cancer > > patients - otherwise I always would refer them to > > him), and he tells me there is evidence > > that progesterone is an even worse player than > > estrogen, and that the estrogen- > > dominance theory is bunk. In no way, shape or form > > should I give progesterone. > > > > I'm wondering if anyone else is up-to-date on this > > topic and has any other insights to > > offer, or leads or resources for either confirming > > or refuting this information. > > Thanks for any responses! > > abigail > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > <> > > > >------ > > > >Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release 8/18/2006 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 I've always advised my patients with estrogen-sensitive cancer to avoid soy products. But I've heard others argue that since soy and other phytos are weak estrogen mimetics, it's better to have the phytoestrogen occupying the receptor site than the real deal. Avery On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 04:47:08 -0400, karen <tryfan wrote: > So in estrogen-receptor breast cancers, would phyto-estrogens (eg soy > products) be contraindicated as well? > tx > Karen > > Kol wrote: > >> Breast cancers can be estrogen-receptor or >> progesterone-receptor positive. or neither,or both. >> The pathology report should say " ER " and " PR " positive >> or negative. My understanding is that those thst are >> ER or PR positive are stimulated to grow by these >> hormones. In that case, it would not be advisable to >> take progesterone supplements with a PR postive >> cancer. Hope this helps -- Susan Kol Goodstein, RN >> >> --- Angela Pfaffenberger <angela.pf >> <angela.pf%40comcast.net>> >> wrote: >> >> > My understanding is the progesterone is priming the >> > estrogen receptors and therefore is not that great. >> > The idea that it offers protection is not well >> > supported. However, there is increasing research >> > that testosterone has some protective effect and >> > that women may become prone to breast cancer when >> > they age because their testosterone levels go down. >> > I would probably test and discuss that with her. >> > Angela Pf >> > >> > >> > . >> > - >> > acubabe_2000 >> > Chinese Medicine >> <Chinese Medicine%40> >> > Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:45 PM >> > Breast Cancer and Hormones >> > >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > I have a question about progesterone, estrogen >> > dominance and breast cancer. My >> > confusion is this: in alternative medicine >> > circles, word is that progesterone is protective >> > against breast cancer, and estrogen dominance is >> > really, really bad for that and many >> > other things. >> > >> > So... I get a patient who is perimenopausal, >> > recovering from a mastectomy for invasive >> > carcinoma in the left breast: mucinous type, at >> > least .4 cm. Ductal carcinoma in situ, >> > intermediate-to-high grade, comedo type. So far, >> > she is recovering well. >> > >> > Meanwhile, besides herbs, I start to wonder if >> > checking her hormone levels for estrogen >> > dominance would be a good idea, followed by >> > supplementing with sublingual >> > progesterone if warranted. >> > >> > I asked the most well-known breast cancer >> > specialist here (acupuncturist/herbalist) who is >> > no longer seeing patients (which is the only >> > reason I even treat one or two breast cancer >> > patients - otherwise I always would refer them to >> > him), and he tells me there is evidence >> > that progesterone is an even worse player than >> > estrogen, and that the estrogen- >> > dominance theory is bunk. In no way, shape or form >> > should I give progesterone. >> > >> > I'm wondering if anyone else is up-to-date on this >> > topic and has any other insights to >> > offer, or leads or resources for either confirming >> > or refuting this information. >> > Thanks for any responses! >> > abigail >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been >> > removed] >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> <> >> >> >> >> ------ >> >> >> >> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: >> 8/18/2006 >> >> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 The mainstream literature has expressed caution on this subject, suggesting that women with ER positive breast cancers avoid soy supplements and perhaps limit soy foods. For another perspective, see Susun Weed's " Breast Cancer? Breast Health! " . She's an American herbalist who feels phyto-estrogens are not problematic. Might be worth emailing (she has an intersting website) her to get more information. -- Kol karen <tryfan wrote: So in estrogen-receptor breast cancers, would phyto-estrogens (eg soy products) be contraindicated as well? tx Karen Kol wrote: > Breast cancers can be estrogen-receptor or > progesterone-receptor positive. or neither,or both. > The pathology report should say " ER " and " PR " positive > or negative. My understanding is that those thst are > ER or PR positive are stimulated to grow by these > hormones. In that case, it would not be advisable to > take progesterone supplements with a PR postive > cancer. Hope this helps -- Susan Kol Goodstein, RN > > --- Angela Pfaffenberger <angela.pf > <angela.pf%40comcast.net>> > wrote: > > > My understanding is the progesterone is priming the > > estrogen receptors and therefore is not that great. > > The idea that it offers protection is not well > > supported. However, there is increasing research > > that testosterone has some protective effect and > > that women may become prone to breast cancer when > > they age because their testosterone levels go down. > > I would probably test and discuss that with her. > > Angela Pf > > > > > > . > > - > > acubabe_2000 > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:45 PM > > Breast Cancer and Hormones > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I have a question about progesterone, estrogen > > dominance and breast cancer. My > > confusion is this: in alternative medicine > > circles, word is that progesterone is protective > > against breast cancer, and estrogen dominance is > > really, really bad for that and many > > other things. > > > > So... I get a patient who is perimenopausal, > > recovering from a mastectomy for invasive > > carcinoma in the left breast: mucinous type, at > > least .4 cm. Ductal carcinoma in situ, > > intermediate-to-high grade, comedo type. So far, > > she is recovering well. > > > > Meanwhile, besides herbs, I start to wonder if > > checking her hormone levels for estrogen > > dominance would be a good idea, followed by > > supplementing with sublingual > > progesterone if warranted. > > > > I asked the most well-known breast cancer > > specialist here (acupuncturist/herbalist) who is > > no longer seeing patients (which is the only > > reason I even treat one or two breast cancer > > patients - otherwise I always would refer them to > > him), and he tells me there is evidence > > that progesterone is an even worse player than > > estrogen, and that the estrogen- > > dominance theory is bunk. In no way, shape or form > > should I give progesterone. > > > > I'm wondering if anyone else is up-to-date on this > > topic and has any other insights to > > offer, or leads or resources for either confirming > > or refuting this information. > > Thanks for any responses! > > abigail > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > <> > > > >------------------------- > > > >Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release 8/18/2006 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 Regarding phytoestrogens, I don't think anyone really knows yet. Perhaps those foods such as tofu taken in small amounts had a beneficial effect, but when taken out of context and chemically isolated, that many not be true. Dazein or genisteine (isoflavones)cause some breast cancer cells to grow in a test tube and so did resveratrol, another phytoestrogen. However, these same compounds also have beneficial cancer fighting and cardioprotective functions through antioxidative and other properties. I just did a detailed presentation on this, so e-mail me if you want more information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 Hi, My personal experience with using the slightest amounts of natural progesterone cream and paying attention to my symptoms, is that when I have just had some acupuncture treatment and am more in balance, the progesterone cream seemed to throw me out of balance again. Conversely, when I have not had a treatment, the progesterone cream was useful. Checking into hormone balance may be helpful, and balancing from the perspective of pulse, tongue and three jiao may possibly be more useful for the patient with adequate treatment to keep her body producing the correct balance. Sandy River, LAc Maine > > Hi, > > > > I have a question about progesterone, estrogen > > dominance and breast cancer. My > > confusion is this: in alternative medicine > > circles, word is that progesterone is protective > > against breast cancer, and estrogen dominance is > > really, really bad for that and many > > other things. > > > > So... I get a patient who is perimenopausal, > > recovering from a mastectomy for invasive > > carcinoma in the left breast: mucinous type, at > > least .4 cm. Ductal carcinoma in situ, > > intermediate-to-high grade, comedo type. So far, > > she is recovering well. > > > > Meanwhile, besides herbs, I start to wonder if > > checking her hormone levels for estrogen > > dominance would be a good idea, followed by > > supplementing with sublingual > > progesterone if warranted. > > > > I asked the most well-known breast cancer > > specialist here (acupuncturist/herbalist) who is > > no longer seeing patients (which is the only > > reason I even treat one or two breast cancer > > patients - otherwise I always would refer them to > > him), and he tells me there is evidence > > that progesterone is an even worse player than > > estrogen, and that the estrogen- > > dominance theory is bunk. In no way, shape or form > > should I give progesterone. > > > > I'm wondering if anyone else is up-to-date on this > > topic and has any other insights to > > offer, or leads or resources for either confirming > > or refuting this information. > > Thanks for any responses! > > abigail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 yes, my understanding also is that we cannot and should not assume that the benefit of the foods, such as tofu, can be gained from powders and isolated ingredients. If the breast cancer is estrogen positive, very low fat diets, exercise, and weight loss can be beneficial; I think that is more important than supplements. Some European and Japanese research points to the cancer fighting effects of enzymes, especially nattokinase. I found that research so convincing that I started to take the stuff myself as a preventative. One more thing. Some research looked into breast tissue samples from women with cancer, they sampled the healthy breast, and took tissue samples from a matched non cancer group, and they found that the fatty tissue was different. The healthy fatty acids, such as GLA and omega 3 seem to have a preventative effect. I thought this was most interesting because they are also the agents that prevent breast pain in PMS. And both the breast pain and the cancer are usually related to stagnation in TCM. Angela Pf .. - gabriellemathieu Chinese Medicine Monday, August 21, 2006 11:42 AM Re: Breast Cancer and Hormones Regarding phytoestrogens, I don't think anyone really knows yet. Perhaps those foods such as tofu taken in small amounts had a beneficial effect, but when taken out of context and chemically isolated, that many not be true. Dazein or genisteine (isoflavones)cause some breast cancer cells to grow in a test tube and so did resveratrol, another phytoestrogen. However, these same compounds also have beneficial cancer fighting and cardioprotective functions through antioxidative and other properties. I just did a detailed presentation on this, so e-mail me if you want more information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 susan, this really confirms my position-belief that we can't adequately design formulae sans some communication c our pt's oncologist. what are your thoughts on this? thanks so much, lynn [fernandkol] wrote: Breast cancers can be estrogen-receptor or progesterone-receptor positive. or neither,or both. The pathology report should say " ER " and " PR " positive or negative. My understanding is that those thst are ER or PR positive are stimulated to grow by these hormones. In that case, it would not be advisable to take progesterone supplements with a PR postive cancer. Hope this helps -- Susan Kol Goodstein, RN --- Angela Pfaffenberger <angela.pf wrote: > My understanding is the progesterone is priming the > estrogen receptors and therefore is not that great. > The idea that it offers protection is not well > supported. However, there is increasing research > that testosterone has some protective effect and > that women may become prone to breast cancer when > they age because their testosterone levels go down. > I would probably test and discuss that with her. > Angela Pf > > > . > - > acubabe_2000 > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:45 PM > Breast Cancer and Hormones > > > Hi, > > I have a question about progesterone, estrogen > dominance and breast cancer. My > confusion is this: in alternative medicine > circles, word is that progesterone is protective > against breast cancer, and estrogen dominance is > really, really bad for that and many > other things. > > So... I get a patient who is perimenopausal, > recovering from a mastectomy for invasive > carcinoma in the left breast: mucinous type, at > least .4 cm. Ductal carcinoma in situ, > intermediate-to-high grade, comedo type. So far, > she is recovering well. > > Meanwhile, besides herbs, I start to wonder if > checking her hormone levels for estrogen > dominance would be a good idea, followed by > supplementing with sublingual > progesterone if warranted. > > I asked the most well-known breast cancer > specialist here (acupuncturist/herbalist) who is > no longer seeing patients (which is the only > reason I even treat one or two breast cancer > patients - otherwise I always would refer them to > him), and he tells me there is evidence > that progesterone is an even worse player than > estrogen, and that the estrogen- > dominance theory is bunk. In no way, shape or form > should I give progesterone. > > I'm wondering if anyone else is up-to-date on this > topic and has any other insights to > offer, or leads or resources for either confirming > or refuting this information. > Thanks for any responses! > abigail > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 This is true, however, one shouldn't design prescriptions for cancer patients solely on such considerations as hormonal balance. On Aug 22, 2006, at 1:57 AM, J. Lynn Detamore wrote: > susan, this really confirms my position-belief that we can't > adequately design formulae sans some communication c our pt's > oncologist. what are your thoughts on this? thanks so much, lynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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