Is Ting Li Zi ever used to treat invisible phlegm/seizure disorders with excess?

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends, teachers, and colleagues,

 

A little over a year ago, in a different group, I initiated a discussion in

which the mechanism whereby Wei Ling Xian is able to dissolve or dislodge fish

bones was discussed. I had asked the question with my wife in mind. As some of

you may know, she suffers from a seizure disorder. I wondered out loud, that if

Wei Ling Xian is

able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would it not also be useful to

dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum pit qi as well. My experience with her

seizures supports Chinese medical literature which specifically attributes them

to " invisible phlegm " misting the channels, for prior to the seizures (which

occur cyclically every 3

to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, yet clear pathogenic phlegm,

which she has difficulty clearing from her throat, and which at times drools out

of her mouth. During the time that the seizures occur (the original seizure is

usually followed by

3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or so days), it increases further,

and for the next 4-5 days she has difficulty swallowing because of this

pathogenic saliva like phlegm in her throat. Recently I've started to use an

aspirator which does help a

bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns, swallowing is difficult, and when

she speaks, she makes gurging sounds like she's under water. She also has

difficulty hearing and understanding as well, another manifestation of the

phlegm blocking the channels.

 

My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is an herb of choice

when phlegm is manifested with excess and gurgling of phlegm in the

throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or pleurisy, it also is

used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary difficulty, and it's

cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart failure and cor

pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or articles that demonstrate

that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible phlegm in excess

conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in seizure disorders such

as my wife's?

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda Frischman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

 

 

 

All-new Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

 

 

[Guest guest]

As an aside, and perhaps I am stating the obvious, but the classic formula

for plum pit qi is ban xia hou po tang. I was curious if you have tried it,

and whether it had any effect?

 

 

 

Bart Paulding, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of yehuda

frischman

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:04 PM

Chinese Medicine

Is Ting Li Zi ever used to treat invisible phlegm/seizure

disorders with excess?

 

 

 

Dear Friends, teachers, and colleagues,

 

A little over a year ago, in a different group, I initiated a discussion in

which the mechanism whereby Wei Ling Xian is able to dissolve or dislodge

fish bones was discussed. I had asked the question with my wife in mind. As

some of you may know, she suffers from a seizure disorder. I wondered out

loud, that if Wei Ling Xian is

able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would it not also be useful to

dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum pit qi as well. My experience with her

seizures supports Chinese medical literature which specifically attributes

them to " invisible phlegm " misting the channels, for prior to the seizures

(which occur cyclically every 3

to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, yet clear pathogenic

phlegm, which she has difficulty clearing from her throat, and which at

times drools out of her mouth. During the time that the seizures occur (the

original seizure is usually followed by

3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or so days), it increases

further, and for the next 4-5 days she has difficulty swallowing because of

this pathogenic saliva like phlegm in her throat. Recently I've started to

use an aspirator which does help a

bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns, swallowing is difficult, and

when she speaks, she makes gurging sounds like she's under water. She also

has difficulty hearing and understanding as well, another manifestation of

the phlegm blocking the channels.

 

My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is an herb of choice

when phlegm is manifested with excess and gurgling of phlegm in the

throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or pleurisy, it also is

used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary difficulty, and it's

cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart failure and cor

pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or articles that demonstrate

that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible phlegm in excess

conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in seizure disorders such

as my wife's?

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda Frischman

 

 

http://traditionalj <http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/>

ewishmedicine.com/

 

 

 

All-new Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done

faster.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Of course, it is one of the foundation formulae that I use depending upon the

particular stage in her cycle, as there are times when she is more yin

vacuitous, more internal heat, (yes there are signs of both types of heat,

excess and deficiency!),more liver wind, more visible phlegm, more invisible

phegm, more heart fire, more shen disturbance, more lung qi xu, etc., and there

are times when she feel a clumping choking sensation in her throat, and that's

when we would include, for example, hou po, zi su ye. I, together with my

former professor and mentor, Zhang Ji, consult weekly and modify her herbs each

time. The formulas generally have between 15-20 herbs. As an example, here is

this weeks formula (at the time she had had her first seizure in 20 days that

morning and there was abundant clear phlegm, tongue was dry and had a partial

dry black coat,pulses were wiry, choppy and thready: tian ma 9, gou teng 15,

dan nan xing 15, tian zhu huang 9, jiang can 9, di

long 9 chuan bei mu 9, tian hua fen 15, shi chang pu 9, yuan zhi 9, sheng di

huang 15, bai shao yao 15, fu ling 12, ban xia 9, zhu ru 9, mu li 30, and raw

da huang powder between 1-2 g each time with the formula. It is a very complex

pattern and she's suffered a long time, seizures for 16 years and a parkinson's

like tremor for 12 years. But you want to know the good news? She's been

taking Chinese herbs for 6 years now, 3x daily, and her skin is soft, except for

right after seizures, her eyes are clear, her complexion is bright and healthy

looking, and many symptoms such as insomnia, frequent urination, low back pain,

and constipation are dramatically improved. Most importantly the seizures are

less frequent. Now if we could resolve them completely....

 

Thank you for your concern and intelligent suggestion,

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER

www.traditionaljewishmedicine.com

 

 

gbp <gbp3 wrote:

As an aside, and perhaps I am stating the obvious, but the classic

formula

for plum pit qi is ban xia hou po tang. I was curious if you have tried it,

and whether it had any effect?

 

Bart Paulding, LAc

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of yehuda

frischman

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:04 PM

Chinese Medicine

Is Ting Li Zi ever used to treat invisible phlegm/seizure

disorders with excess?

 

Dear Friends, teachers, and colleagues,

 

A little over a year ago, in a different group, I initiated a discussion in

which the mechanism whereby Wei Ling Xian is able to dissolve or dislodge

fish bones was discussed. I had asked the question with my wife in mind. As

some of you may know, she suffers from a seizure disorder. I wondered out

loud, that if Wei Ling Xian is

able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would it not also be useful to

dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum pit qi as well. My experience with her

seizures supports Chinese medical literature which specifically attributes

them to " invisible phlegm " misting the channels, for prior to the seizures

(which occur cyclically every 3

to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, yet clear pathogenic

phlegm, which she has difficulty clearing from her throat, and which at

times drools out of her mouth. During the time that the seizures occur (the

original seizure is usually followed by

3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or so days), it increases

further, and for the next 4-5 days she has difficulty swallowing because of

this pathogenic saliva like phlegm in her throat. Recently I've started to

use an aspirator which does help a

bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns, swallowing is difficult, and

when she speaks, she makes gurging sounds like she's under water. She also

has difficulty hearing and understanding as well, another manifestation of

the phlegm blocking the channels.

 

My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is an herb of choice

when phlegm is manifested with excess and gurgling of phlegm in the

throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or pleurisy, it also is

used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary difficulty, and it's

cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart failure and cor

pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or articles that demonstrate

that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible phlegm in excess

conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in seizure disorders such

as my wife's?

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda Frischman

 

 

http://traditionalj <http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/>

ewishmedicine.com/

 

 

All-new Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done

faster.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Does anyone know of studies or articles that demonstrate

that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible phlegm in excess

conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in seizure disorders such

as my wife's?

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda Frischman

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Yehuda,

According to the John Chen Materia Medica pg. 743, Ting Li zi, which is

acrid, bitter and very cold, can be used for visible (sputum in the lungs)

and invisible phlegm (inflammation and the swelling in the lungs).

It is a cardiotonic and diuretic. Hope this helps. K.

 

On 8/23/06, wrote:

>

> Dear Friends, teachers, and colleagues,

>

> A little over a year ago, in a different group, I initiated a discussion

> in which the mechanism whereby Wei Ling Xian is able to dissolve or dislodge

> fish bones was discussed. I had asked the question with my wife in mind. As

> some of you may know, she suffers from a seizure disorder. I wondered out

> loud, that if Wei Ling Xian is

> able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would it not also be useful to

> dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum pit qi as well. My experience with her

> seizures supports Chinese medical literature which specifically attributes

> them to " invisible phlegm " misting the channels, for prior to the seizures

> (which occur cyclically every 3

> to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, yet clear pathogenic

> phlegm, which she has difficulty clearing from her throat, and which at

> times drools out of her mouth. During the time that the seizures occur (the

> original seizure is usually followed by

> 3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or so days), it increases

> further, and for the next 4-5 days she has difficulty swallowing because of

> this pathogenic saliva like phlegm in her throat. Recently I've started to

> use an aspirator which does help a

> bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns, swallowing is difficult, and

> when she speaks, she makes gurging sounds like she's under water. She also

> has difficulty hearing and understanding as well, another manifestation of

> the phlegm blocking the channels.

>

> My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is an herb of choice

> when phlegm is manifested with excess and gurgling of phlegm in the

> throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or pleurisy, it also is

> used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary difficulty, and it's

> cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart failure and cor

> pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or articles that demonstrate

> that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible phlegm in excess

> conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in seizure disorders such

> as my wife's?

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Yehuda Frischman

>

>

> http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

>

>

>

> All-new Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done

> faster.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , yehuda

frischman < wrote:

>

> Dear Friends, teachers, and colleagues,

>

> A little over a year ago, in a different group, I initiated a

discussion in which the mechanism whereby Wei Ling Xian is able to

dissolve or dislodge fish bones was discussed. I had asked the

question with my wife in mind. As some of you may know, she suffers

from a seizure disorder. I wondered out loud, that if Wei Ling Xian

is

> able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would it not also be

useful to dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum pit qi as well. My

experience with her seizures supports Chinese medical literature

which specifically attributes them to " invisible phlegm " misting the

channels, for prior to the seizures (which occur cyclically every 3

> to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, yet clear

pathogenic phlegm, which she has difficulty clearing from her

throat, and which at times drools out of her mouth. During the time

that the seizures occur (the original seizure is usually followed by

> 3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or so days), it

increases further, and for the next 4-5 days she has difficulty

swallowing because of this pathogenic saliva like phlegm in her

throat. Recently I've started to use an aspirator which does help a

> bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns, swallowing is

difficult, and when she speaks, she makes gurging sounds like she's

under water. She also has difficulty hearing and understanding as

well, another manifestation of the phlegm blocking the channels.

>

> My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is an herb of choice

> when phlegm is manifested with excess and gurgling of phlegm in

the

> throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or pleurisy, it also

is

> used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary difficulty, and it's

> cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart failure and cor

> pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or articles that

demonstrate

> that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible phlegm in excess

> conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in seizure disorders

such

> as my wife's?

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Yehuda Frischman

 

> http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

>

>

>

> All-new Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get

things done faster.

>

>

[Guest guest]

In Ten Lectures on the use of Formulas, by Jaio Shu-de page 402, the formula

Kong Xian Dan is referenced to treat Phlegm Drool. “Phlegm Drool confounds

the heart and forms epilepsy.” This second herb listed in the formula is

Ting Li Zi. So I would guess its worth a try.

 

 

 

Bart Paulding, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of yehuda

frischman

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:04 PM

Chinese Medicine

Is Ting Li Zi ever used to treat invisible phlegm/seizure

disorders with excess?

 

 

 

Dear Friends, teachers, and colleagues,

 

A little over a year ago, in a different group, I initiated a discussion in

which the mechanism whereby Wei Ling Xian is able to dissolve or dislodge

fish bones was discussed. I had asked the question with my wife in mind. As

some of you may know, she suffers from a seizure disorder. I wondered out

loud, that if Wei Ling Xian is

able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would it not also be useful to

dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum pit qi as well. My experience with her

seizures supports Chinese medical literature which specifically attributes

them to " invisible phlegm " misting the channels, for prior to the seizures

(which occur cyclically every 3

to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, yet clear pathogenic

phlegm, which she has difficulty clearing from her throat, and which at

times drools out of her mouth. During the time that the seizures occur (the

original seizure is usually followed by

3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or so days), it increases

further, and for the next 4-5 days she has difficulty swallowing because of

this pathogenic saliva like phlegm in her throat. Recently I've started to

use an aspirator which does help a

bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns, swallowing is difficult, and

when she speaks, she makes gurging sounds like she's under water. She also

has difficulty hearing and understanding as well, another manifestation of

the phlegm blocking the channels.

 

My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is an herb of choice

when phlegm is manifested with excess and gurgling of phlegm in the

throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or pleurisy, it also is

used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary difficulty, and it's

cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart failure and cor

pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or articles that demonstrate

that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible phlegm in excess

conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in seizure disorders such

as my wife's?

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda Frischman

 

 

http://traditionalj <http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/>

ewishmedicine.com/

 

 

 

All-new Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done

faster.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

> In Ten Lectures on the use of Formulas, by Jaio Shu-de page 402, the

> formula Kong Xian Dan is referenced to treat Phlegm Drool. Phlegm

> Drool confounds HT and forms epilepsy. This second herb listed in the

> formula is Tinglizi.... Bart

 

Kong Xian Dan (Control Mucus Special Pill / Drool-Controlling Elixir) is

listed at http://www.tcmcollege.com/herbfula.htm under the " Chase

Water " Formula Class:

7-5-1/Shi Zao Tang

7-5-1A/Kong Xian Dan

7-5-2/Yu Gong San

7-5-2A/Dao Shui Wan

 

http://www.tcmassistant.com/formula_k.html says:

Kong Xian Dan (Control Mucus Special Pill)

 

Class: Purgative; Subclass: Drive Out Excess Water; Source/Author:

San Yin Ji Yi Bing Zheng Fang Lun (Discussion of Illnesses, Patterns,

and Formulas Related to the Unification of the Three Etiologies)

Other names:

 

Recipe: Gansui (Radix Euphorbiae Kansui) 33.33%; Daji (Herba Seu

Radix Circii Japonici) (Herba seu Radix Cirsii Japonici) 33.33%; Baijiezi

(Semen Sinapsis Albae) 33.33%

 

Actions: Eliminates Phlegm; Purges congested fluids

 

Indications: Phlegm lurking above and below the diaphragm that

obstructs the Qi mechanism.

 

Symptoms: Cough with sticky-thick sputum; Piercing pain in the neck;

Ptyalism; Severe pain in the lower back; Sudden, piercing pain in the

chest; Tension of the muscles that evolves into a burning, piercing pain;

Cold extremities; Drowsiness; Lethargy; Pain of the extremities; Poor

appetite; Reduced thirst; Severe, unremitting headache; Stertorous

breathing, at night; Tongue with a sticky-greasy coating; Slippery-Wiry

pulse (Hua Xian)

 

Preparation: PILLS: Grind the ingredients into powder and form into

small pills with water.

 

Administration/Dosage schedule: PILLS: 1-2 g doses, at bedtime, with

warm water.

 

Contraindications: Weak patients. Pregnancy.

 

Warning: Never combine with Radix Glycyrrhizae (Gan Cao).

 

NOTE: There is no Tinglizi in the formula listed in the TCMAssistant

page. Also, the Chinese site

http://www.wanfangdata.com.cn/qikan/periodical.articles/sxzy/sxzy2004/

0405/040531.htm agrees with the TCM Assistant ingredients [Gansui,

Daji & Baijiezi]

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I stand corrected. It’s his Wu Zi Wu Pi Huo Yu Li Shui Tang – Five Seed

Five Peel Stasis Quickening Water Disinhibiting Tea- that contains Ting Li

Zi. It was getting late.

 

 

 

Bart

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Phil

Rogers

Friday, August 25, 2006 4:15 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Is Ting Li Zi ever used to treat invisible phlegm/seizure

disorders with excess?

 

 

 

Hi

 

> In Ten Lectures on the use of Formulas, by Jaio Shu-de page 402, the

> formula Kong Xian Dan is referenced to treat Phlegm Drool. Phlegm

> Drool confounds HT and forms epilepsy. This second herb listed in the

> formula is Tinglizi.... Bart

 

Kong Xian Dan (Control Mucus Special Pill / Drool-Controlling Elixir) is

listed at http://www.tcmcolle <http://www.tcmcollege.com/herbfula.htm>

ge.com/herbfula.htm under the " Chase

Water " Formula Class:

7-5-1/Shi Zao Tang

7-5-1A/Kong Xian Dan

7-5-2/Yu Gong San

7-5-2A/Dao Shui Wan

 

http://www.tcmassis <http://www.tcmassistant.com/formula_k.html>

tant.com/formula_k.html says:

Kong Xian Dan (Control Mucus Special Pill)

 

Class: Purgative; Subclass: Drive Out Excess Water; Source/Author:

San Yin Ji Yi Bing Zheng Fang Lun (Discussion of Illnesses, Patterns,

and Formulas Related to the Unification of the Three Etiologies)

Other names:

 

Recipe: Gansui (Radix Euphorbiae Kansui) 33.33%; Daji (Herba Seu

Radix Circii Japonici) (Herba seu Radix Cirsii Japonici) 33.33%; Baijiezi

(Semen Sinapsis Albae) 33.33%

 

Actions: Eliminates Phlegm; Purges congested fluids

 

Indications: Phlegm lurking above and below the diaphragm that

obstructs the Qi mechanism.

 

Symptoms: Cough with sticky-thick sputum; Piercing pain in the neck;

Ptyalism; Severe pain in the lower back; Sudden, piercing pain in the

chest; Tension of the muscles that evolves into a burning, piercing pain;

Cold extremities; Drowsiness; Lethargy; Pain of the extremities; Poor

appetite; Reduced thirst; Severe, unremitting headache; Stertorous

breathing, at night; Tongue with a sticky-greasy coating; Slippery-Wiry

pulse (Hua Xian)

 

Preparation: PILLS: Grind the ingredients into powder and form into

small pills with water.

 

Administration/Dosage schedule: PILLS: 1-2 g doses, at bedtime, with

warm water.

 

Contraindications: Weak patients. Pregnancy.

 

Warning: Never combine with Radix Glycyrrhizae (Gan Cao).

 

NOTE: There is no Tinglizi in the formula listed in the TCMAssistant

page. Also, the Chinese site

http://www.wanfangd

<http://www.wanfangdata.com.cn/qikan/periodical.articles/sxzy/sxzy2004/>

ata.com.cn/qikan/periodical.articles/sxzy/sxzy2004/

0405/040531.htm agrees with the TCM Assistant ingredients [Gansui,

Daji & Baijiezi]

 

Best regards,