Ting Li Zi and Shi Chang Pu--visible and invisible phegm. Analogous and complementary?

[Guest guest]

Thanks Kokko,

 

I had seen that in the section " author's comments " in Chen's discussion of

Ting Li Zi, as well. To quote the section in its entirety, " According to Dr

Chen Yuan-Da, TLZ is one of the best and most effective herbs for the treatment

of acute asthma. TLZ has an excellent and immediate action to eliminate

visible phlegm (the sputum in the lungs) and invisible phlegm (the inflammation

and the swelling of the lungs). " I didn't specifically mention it, because here

he's talking about invisible phlegm in the lungs, but I was asking about TLZ's

ability to resolve invisible phlegm misting and blocking the channels, primarily

the heart channel (causing seizures), while at the same time clearing the

visible phlegm gurgling in her throat.

 

Let me cut to the chase: I intuitively feel that there is a relationship,

based upon the following syllogism: 1.If TLZ resolves gurgling phlegm in the

throat, and if 2. TLZ also eliminates invisible phlegm in the lungs as Chen Yuan

Da says, and if 3. Seizures are caused by misting of invisible phlegm in the

channels, and if 4. Seizures are also manifested by drooling and gurgling clear

yet thick pathogenic saliva-like tangible phlegm, should it not follow that TLZ

would effectively treat both manifestations of phlegm in seizures: the visible

(which presents difficulty in swallowing, drooling and gurgling) and the

invisible (which blocks the qi from reaching the head causing the actual

seizures)?

 

Parenthetically do we also not find a similar, though not entirely precise

analogy with Shi Chang Pu? Look at he indication for SCP, in Chen: " Opens

orifices, vaporizes turbid phlegm " while at the same time it, " benefits the

throat " and is used with Pang Da Hai for laryngitis, caused by what? I would

suggest phlegm! I don't have the new Bensky MM, but in the old one he doesn't

even mention the " benefits throat " indication, but he does mentions SCP's use in

combination with Jie Geng and Shi Hu in treating hoarseness with accompanying

sputum in the throat or swollen edemous vocal cords, pretty obviously what we

are talking about. One other glaring omission though, in both MM's, is despite

the above, SCP only opens into the heart and stomach channels. Why not the

lungs?

 

Also, has this train of thought not been followed up in research or clinical

practice? Perhaps someone can contact Chen Yuan Da. Any help out there?

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER

www.traditionaljewishmedicine.com

 

<johnkokko wrote:

Dear Yehuda,

According to the John Chen Materia Medica pg. 743, Ting Li zi, which is

acrid, bitter and very cold, can be used for visible (sputum in the lungs)

and invisible phlegm (inflammation and the swelling in the lungs).

It is a cardiotonic and diuretic. Hope this helps. K.

 

On 8/23/06, wrote:

>

> Dear Friends, teachers, and colleagues,

>

> A little over a year ago, in a different group, I initiated a discussion

> in which the mechanism whereby Wei Ling Xian is able to dissolve or dislodge

> fish bones was discussed. I had asked the question with my wife in mind. As

> some of you may know, she suffers from a seizure disorder. I wondered out

> loud, that if Wei Ling Xian is

> able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would it not also be useful to

> dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum pit qi as well. My experience with her

> seizures supports Chinese medical literature which specifically attributes

> them to " invisible phlegm " misting the channels, for prior to the seizures

> (which occur cyclically every 3

> to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, yet clear pathogenic

> phlegm, which she has difficulty clearing from her throat, and which at

> times drools out of her mouth. During the time that the seizures occur (the

> original seizure is usually followed by

> 3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or so days), it increases

> further, and for the next 4-5 days she has difficulty swallowing because of

> this pathogenic saliva like phlegm in her throat. Recently I've started to

> use an aspirator which does help a

> bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns, swallowing is difficult, and

> when she speaks, she makes gurging sounds like she's under water. She also

> has difficulty hearing and understanding as well, another manifestation of

> the phlegm blocking the channels.

>

> My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is an herb of choice

> when phlegm is manifested with excess and gurgling of phlegm in the

> throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or pleurisy, it also is

> used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary difficulty, and it's

> cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart failure and cor

> pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or articles that demonstrate

> that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible phlegm in excess

> conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in seizure disorders such

> as my wife's?

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Yehuda Frischman

>

>

> http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

>

>

>

> All-new Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done

> faster.

>

>