Guest guest Posted February 15, 2002 Report Share Posted February 15, 2002 Thus it would seem a fine distinction to completely rule out damp accumulation in the lung.>>>>Also i thought Todd was asking about upper warmer? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 David ' my mistake alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 Hi all friends. I would like to point out just an idea: - the phlegm is a result of long therm Qi, or Xue or fluids (Jin Ye), and them it gets stucked and become a phlegm; - the invisible phlegm can also be caused by emotional disorders leading to a stagnation of the Qi; So, if it is formed by a " Dehydration process " one should not use diuretic herbs... I think a good book for this discussion is the one from Steven Clavey. Phisiology and Pathology of the fluids in the TCM. Yours, Jean Joaquim, DVM, MS www.bioethicus.com.br > > > > Dear Friends, teachers, and colleagues, > > > > A little over a year ago, in a different group, I > initiated a > discussion in which the mechanism whereby Wei Ling > Xian is able to > dissolve or dislodge fish bones was discussed. I had > asked the > question with my wife in mind. As some of you may > know, she suffers > from a seizure disorder. I wondered out loud, that > if Wei Ling Xian > is > > able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would > it not also be > useful to dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum pit > qi as well. My > experience with her seizures supports Chinese > medical literature > which specifically attributes them to " invisible > phlegm " misting the > channels, for prior to the seizures (which occur > cyclically every 3 > > to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, > yet clear > pathogenic phlegm, which she has difficulty clearing > from her > throat, and which at times drools out of her mouth. > During the time > that the seizures occur (the original seizure is > usually followed by > > 3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or so > days), it > increases further, and for the next 4-5 days she has > difficulty > swallowing because of this pathogenic saliva like > phlegm in her > throat. Recently I've started to use an aspirator > which does help a > > bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns, > swallowing is > difficult, and when she speaks, she makes gurging > sounds like she's > under water. She also has difficulty hearing and > understanding as > well, another manifestation of the phlegm blocking > the channels. > > > > My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is an > herb of choice > > when phlegm is manifested with excess and gurgling > of phlegm in > the > > throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or > pleurisy, it also > is > > used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary > difficulty, and it's > > cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart > failure and cor > > pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or articles > that > demonstrate > > that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible > phlegm in excess > > conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in > seizure disorders > such > > as my wife's? > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Yehuda Frischman > > > > > > > > > > Jean G. Fernandes Joaquim DMV, MS Botucatu - SP - Brazil F: 014-81238149 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Dear Dr. Yehuda Frischman, First of all, sorry for the poor english. In my first paragraph I forget the word “- the phlegm is a result of long therm stagnation of Qi, or Xue or fluids (Jin Ye), and them it gets stucked and become a phlegm”. The word phlegm for me means “sticky”. Such discussion is very important since phlegm is one of the most important agent causing disease in TCM. And one of the most not well-known. In the literature, the cause of phlegm is absence of Yang Qi, which causes impairment of the circulation. So the fluids (Jin Ye) get stuck on the organs and at some luo channel which is related with the emotional status of the patient. At this point, the dehydration process starts. Many of our treatment lead the patient to cure, because of the movement of Yang and Qi, despite the fact that no one has thought about the phlegm. So, in the treatment, two points are important: - to improve the Yang Qi; - to nourish the yin or the fluids. This can be done addressing the San Jiao and the Shen (kidney luo channel); Concluding, I would say that I prefer to enforce the lung them use diuretic herbs. If the lung is weak, the Qi can not descend to the kidney. If the kidney is weak, it causes an accumulation of misty in the lungs. Reinforcing the kidney and the lungs CREAT a diuretic effect, which is different from using diuretic herb. I have done it and patient with LAE (multiple sclerosis) with could not swallow the saliva. Finally, points like: St40, Sp9, CV22, CV17, Pc6, Lu9 and H7 (Bhudda points) and Lu5 will help, I guess. Sorry for being long. Yours, Jean Joaquim --- wrote: > Dear Dr. Joaquim, > > I would concur with your analysis that the > pathogenesis of phlegm is the result of dehydration. > It is for this reason that it would be > contraindicated to use an herb like Ting Li Zi for > an extended period of time, and certainly not > alone!. However, in reviewing the indications and > mechanism of TLZ--both Chen and Bensky agree > (quoting Chen): " It is most effective excess-type > coughing and wheezing, gurgling sounds in the throat > and chest fullness and congestion with discomfort > ...caused by accumulation of phlegm in the lungs. " > In other words, once phlegm has already accumulated > in the throat to the point where one actually hears > it as a gurgling sound, then I would contend that a > short term course of Ting Li Zi, included in a > balanced formula of other herbs to transform phlegm > and stop coughing, enriching yin, and clearing heat > would be indicated. Furthermore, I still contend > that there appears to be a connection between the > invisible phlegm misting the heart > channel, and the coexistance of this gurgling > phlegm in the throat. I recognize that invisible > phlegm certainly has an emotional component, (see > the indications of Ban Xie Hou po tang!), as Clavey > contends, but is it not possible that the two types > of phlegm are indeed related and coexist not by > coincidence but by common pathogenesis? I again > refer you to the indications for Shi Chang pu as I > mentioned in a previous post, not only vaporizing > phlegm blocking the sensory orifices, but also > transforming turbid dampness. > > Sincerely, > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER > www.traditionaljewishmedicine.com > > > " Dr. Jean G. F. Joaquim " <jeanvet > wrote: > > Hi all friends. > I would like to point out just an idea: > - the phlegm is a result of long therm Qi, or Xue or > fluids (Jin Ye), and them it gets stucked and become > a > phlegm; > - the invisible phlegm can also be caused by > emotional > disorders leading to a stagnation of the Qi; > So, if it is formed by a " Dehydration process " one > should not use diuretic herbs... > I think a good book for this discussion is the one > from Steven Clavey. Phisiology and Pathology of the > fluids in the TCM. > Yours, > Jean Joaquim, DVM, MS > www.bioethicus.com.br > > > > > > > Dear Friends, teachers, and colleagues, > > > > > > A little over a year ago, in a different group, > I > > initiated a > > discussion in which the mechanism whereby Wei Ling > > Xian is able to > > dissolve or dislodge fish bones was discussed. I > had > > asked the > > question with my wife in mind. As some of you may > > know, she suffers > > from a seizure disorder. I wondered out loud, that > > if Wei Ling Xian > > is > > > able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would > > it not also be > > useful to dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum > pit > > qi as well. My > > experience with her seizures supports Chinese > > medical literature > > which specifically attributes them to " invisible > > phlegm " misting the > > channels, for prior to the seizures (which occur > > cyclically every 3 > > > to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, > > yet clear > > pathogenic phlegm, which she has difficulty > clearing > > from her > > throat, and which at times drools out of her > mouth. > > During the time > > that the seizures occur (the original seizure is > > usually followed by > > > 3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or > so > > days), it > > increases further, and for the next 4-5 days she > has > > difficulty > > swallowing because of this pathogenic saliva like > > phlegm in her > > throat. Recently I've started to use an aspirator > > which does help a > > > bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns, > > swallowing is > > difficult, and when she speaks, she makes gurging > > sounds like she's > > under water. She also has difficulty hearing and > > understanding as > > well, another manifestation of the phlegm blocking > > the channels. > > > > > > My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is > an > > herb of choice > > > when phlegm is manifested with excess and > gurgling > > of phlegm in > > the > > > throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or > > pleurisy, it also > > is > > > used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary > > difficulty, and it's > > > cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart > > failure and cor > > > pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or > articles > > that > > demonstrate > > > that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible > > phlegm in excess > > > conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in > > seizure disorders > > such > > > as my wife's? > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Yehuda Frischman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jean G. Fernandes Joaquim > DMV, MS > Botucatu - SP - Brazil > F: 014-81238149 > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam > protection around > > > > > > > > http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/ > > > > > Get on board. You're invited to try the new > Mail. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Jean G. Fernandes Joaquim DMV, MS Botucatu - SP - Brazil F: 014-81238149 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Thanks, Jean. That was a great analysis and helped me with my thinking for my patients. Anne Dr. Jean G. F. Joaquim wrote: > > Dear Dr. Yehuda Frischman, > First of all, sorry for the poor english. In my first > paragraph I forget the word " - the phlegm is a result > of long therm stagnation of Qi, or Xue or fluids (Jin > Ye), and them it gets stucked and become a phlegm " . > > The word phlegm for me means " sticky " . Such discussion > is very important since phlegm is one of the most > important agent causing disease in TCM. And one of the > most not well-known. In the literature, the cause of > phlegm is absence of Yang Qi, which causes impairment > of the circulation. So the fluids (Jin Ye) get stuck > on the organs and at some luo channel which is related > with the emotional status of the patient. At this > point, the dehydration process starts. Many of our > treatment lead the patient to cure, because of the > movement of Yang and Qi, despite the fact that no one > has thought about the phlegm. > So, in the treatment, two points are important: > - to improve the Yang Qi; > - to nourish the yin or the fluids. This can be done > addressing the San Jiao and the Shen (kidney luo > channel); > Concluding, I would say that I prefer to enforce the > lung them use diuretic herbs. If the lung is weak, the > Qi can not descend to the kidney. If the kidney is > weak, it causes an accumulation of misty in the lungs. > Reinforcing the kidney and the lungs CREAT a diuretic > effect, which is different from using diuretic herb. I > have done it and patient with LAE (multiple sclerosis) > with could not swallow the saliva. > Finally, points like: St40, Sp9, CV22, CV17, Pc6, Lu9 > and H7 (Bhudda points) and Lu5 will help, I guess. > Sorry for being long. > Yours, > Jean Joaquim > > --- > <%40>> wrote: > > > Dear Dr. Joaquim, > > > > I would concur with your analysis that the > > pathogenesis of phlegm is the result of dehydration. > > It is for this reason that it would be > > contraindicated to use an herb like Ting Li Zi for > > an extended period of time, and certainly not > > alone!. However, in reviewing the indications and > > mechanism of TLZ--both Chen and Bensky agree > > (quoting Chen): " It is most effective excess-type > > coughing and wheezing, gurgling sounds in the throat > > and chest fullness and congestion with discomfort > > ...caused by accumulation of phlegm in the lungs. " > > In other words, once phlegm has already accumulated > > in the throat to the point where one actually hears > > it as a gurgling sound, then I would contend that a > > short term course of Ting Li Zi, included in a > > balanced formula of other herbs to transform phlegm > > and stop coughing, enriching yin, and clearing heat > > would be indicated. Furthermore, I still contend > > that there appears to be a connection between the > > invisible phlegm misting the heart > > channel, and the coexistance of this gurgling > > phlegm in the throat. I recognize that invisible > > phlegm certainly has an emotional component, (see > > the indications of Ban Xie Hou po tang!), as Clavey > > contends, but is it not possible that the two types > > of phlegm are indeed related and coexist not by > > coincidence but by common pathogenesis? I again > > refer you to the indications for Shi Chang pu as I > > mentioned in a previous post, not only vaporizing > > phlegm blocking the sensory orifices, but also > > transforming turbid dampness. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER > > www.traditionaljewishmedicine.com > > > > > > " Dr. Jean G. F. Joaquim " <jeanvet > <jeanvet%40>> > > wrote: > > > > Hi all friends. > > I would like to point out just an idea: > > - the phlegm is a result of long therm Qi, or Xue or > > fluids (Jin Ye), and them it gets stucked and become > > a > > phlegm; > > - the invisible phlegm can also be caused by > > emotional > > disorders leading to a stagnation of the Qi; > > So, if it is formed by a " Dehydration process " one > > should not use diuretic herbs... > > I think a good book for this discussion is the one > > from Steven Clavey. Phisiology and Pathology of the > > fluids in the TCM. > > Yours, > > Jean Joaquim, DVM, MS > > www.bioethicus.com.br > > > > > > > > > > Dear Friends, teachers, and colleagues, > > > > > > > > A little over a year ago, in a different group, > > I > > > initiated a > > > discussion in which the mechanism whereby Wei Ling > > > Xian is able to > > > dissolve or dislodge fish bones was discussed. I > > had > > > asked the > > > question with my wife in mind. As some of you may > > > know, she suffers > > > from a seizure disorder. I wondered out loud, that > > > if Wei Ling Xian > > > is > > > > able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would > > > it not also be > > > useful to dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum > > pit > > > qi as well. My > > > experience with her seizures supports Chinese > > > medical literature > > > which specifically attributes them to " invisible > > > phlegm " misting the > > > channels, for prior to the seizures (which occur > > > cyclically every 3 > > > > to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, > > > yet clear > > > pathogenic phlegm, which she has difficulty > > clearing > > > from her > > > throat, and which at times drools out of her > > mouth. > > > During the time > > > that the seizures occur (the original seizure is > > > usually followed by > > > > 3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or > > so > > > days), it > > > increases further, and for the next 4-5 days she > > has > > > difficulty > > > swallowing because of this pathogenic saliva like > > > phlegm in her > > > throat. Recently I've started to use an aspirator > > > which does help a > > > > bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns, > > > swallowing is > > > difficult, and when she speaks, she makes gurging > > > sounds like she's > > > under water. She also has difficulty hearing and > > > understanding as > > > well, another manifestation of the phlegm blocking > > > the channels. > > > > > > > > My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is > > an > > > herb of choice > > > > when phlegm is manifested with excess and > > gurgling > > > of phlegm in > > > the > > > > throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or > > > pleurisy, it also > > > is > > > > used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary > > > difficulty, and it's > > > > cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart > > > failure and cor > > > > pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or > > articles > > > that > > > demonstrate > > > > that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible > > > phlegm in excess > > > > conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in > > > seizure disorders > > > such > > > > as my wife's? > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > Yehuda Frischman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jean G. Fernandes Joaquim > > DMV, MS > > Botucatu - SP - Brazil > > F: 014-81238149 > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam > > protection around > > <> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/ > <http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/> > > > > > > > > > > Get on board. You're invited to try the new > > Mail. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > Jean G. Fernandes Joaquim > DMV, MS > Botucatu - SP - Brazil > F: 014-81238149 > > > > > <> > > -- Anne C. Crowley <blazing.valley =============================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Dear Dr. Jean, Remember that there are two terms for phlegm in Chinese: tan2 which is the thick, sticky variety and yin3, which is the term for the thinner and less visible form of tan, and is used to describe invisible phlegm and Wiseman translates as Rheum. I would contend that these two " types " of phlegm are significantly different, and at the same time related. Tan2 I would agree is usually the result of a dehydration from either heat, wind or both. However, Yin3 has a different pathogenesis. As Wiseman explains, phlegm rheum is the result of accumulation of fluid. I would view this as a swamping and a gumming up of the qi, actually a cold process, with the fluids becoming viscous and not moving. This, I would agree with you is exactly blocking the yang qi. But the point I want to emphasize is that this blockage of the yang qi is a cold pattern, rather than a hot one as the first one is. What I would theorize, is that often these two patterns occur simultaneously, and that both forms of viscosity, the one which comes from stagnation (cold) and the one that comes from wind and heat often coexist, as I think is the case with seizure and gurgling. So when you have a combination of internal liver wind fanning the flames of already existant heart fire, while at the same time you have yang qi cold vacuity preventing the spleen from transforming and transporting, you can have a complex pattern presenting with both Tan and Yin. In such a case, IMO, we would need to drive out and purge the pathogenic phlegm heat (remember ting li zi is acrid (moving) as well as bitter and cold) , while at the same time supplementing, warming and supporting the spleen yang qi. Respectfully, Yehuda " Dr. Jean G. F. Joaquim " <jeanvet wrote: Dear Dr. Yehuda Frischman, First of all, sorry for the poor english. In my first paragraph I forget the word “- the phlegm is a result of long therm stagnation of Qi, or Xue or fluids (Jin Ye), and them it gets stucked and become a phlegm”. The word phlegm for me means “sticky”. Such discussion is very important since phlegm is one of the most important agent causing disease in TCM. And one of the most not well-known. In the literature, the cause of phlegm is absence of Yang Qi, which causes impairment of the circulation. So the fluids (Jin Ye) get stuck on the organs and at some luo channel which is related with the emotional status of the patient. At this point, the dehydration process starts. Many of our treatment lead the patient to cure, because of the movement of Yang and Qi, despite the fact that no one has thought about the phlegm. So, in the treatment, two points are important: - to improve the Yang Qi; - to nourish the yin or the fluids. This can be done addressing the San Jiao and the Shen (kidney luo channel); Concluding, I would say that I prefer to enforce the lung them use diuretic herbs. If the lung is weak, the Qi can not descend to the kidney. If the kidney is weak, it causes an accumulation of misty in the lungs. Reinforcing the kidney and the lungs CREAT a diuretic effect, which is different from using diuretic herb. I have done it and patient with LAE (multiple sclerosis) with could not swallow the saliva. Finally, points like: St40, Sp9, CV22, CV17, Pc6, Lu9 and H7 (Bhudda points) and Lu5 will help, I guess. Sorry for being long. Yours, Jean Joaquim --- wrote: > Dear Dr. Joaquim, > > I would concur with your analysis that the > pathogenesis of phlegm is the result of dehydration. > It is for this reason that it would be > contraindicated to use an herb like Ting Li Zi for > an extended period of time, and certainly not > alone!. However, in reviewing the indications and > mechanism of TLZ--both Chen and Bensky agree > (quoting Chen): " It is most effective excess-type > coughing and wheezing, gurgling sounds in the throat > and chest fullness and congestion with discomfort > ...caused by accumulation of phlegm in the lungs. " > In other words, once phlegm has already accumulated > in the throat to the point where one actually hears > it as a gurgling sound, then I would contend that a > short term course of Ting Li Zi, included in a > balanced formula of other herbs to transform phlegm > and stop coughing, enriching yin, and clearing heat > would be indicated. Furthermore, I still contend > that there appears to be a connection between the > invisible phlegm misting the heart > channel, and the coexistance of this gurgling > phlegm in the throat. I recognize that invisible > phlegm certainly has an emotional component, (see > the indications of Ban Xie Hou po tang!), as Clavey > contends, but is it not possible that the two types > of phlegm are indeed related and coexist not by > coincidence but by common pathogenesis? I again > refer you to the indications for Shi Chang pu as I > mentioned in a previous post, not only vaporizing > phlegm blocking the sensory orifices, but also > transforming turbid dampness. > > Sincerely, > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER > www.traditionaljewishmedicine.com > > > " Dr. Jean G. F. Joaquim " <jeanvet > wrote: > > Hi all friends. > I would like to point out just an idea: > - the phlegm is a result of long therm Qi, or Xue or > fluids (Jin Ye), and them it gets stucked and become > a > phlegm; > - the invisible phlegm can also be caused by > emotional > disorders leading to a stagnation of the Qi; > So, if it is formed by a " Dehydration process " one > should not use diuretic herbs... > I think a good book for this discussion is the one > from Steven Clavey. Phisiology and Pathology of the > fluids in the TCM. > Yours, > Jean Joaquim, DVM, MS > www.bioethicus.com.br > > > > > > > Dear Friends, teachers, and colleagues, > > > > > > A little over a year ago, in a different group, > I > > initiated a > > discussion in which the mechanism whereby Wei Ling > > Xian is able to > > dissolve or dislodge fish bones was discussed. I > had > > asked the > > question with my wife in mind. As some of you may > > know, she suffers > > from a seizure disorder. I wondered out loud, that > > if Wei Ling Xian > > is > > > able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would > > it not also be > > useful to dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum > pit > > qi as well. My > > experience with her seizures supports Chinese > > medical literature > > which specifically attributes them to " invisible > > phlegm " misting the > > channels, for prior to the seizures (which occur > > cyclically every 3 > > > to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, > > yet clear > > pathogenic phlegm, which she has difficulty > clearing > > from her > > throat, and which at times drools out of her > mouth. > > During the time > > that the seizures occur (the original seizure is > > usually followed by > > > 3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or > so > > days), it > > increases further, and for the next 4-5 days she > has > > difficulty > > swallowing because of this pathogenic saliva like > > phlegm in her > > throat. Recently I've started to use an aspirator > > which does help a > > > bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns, > > swallowing is > > difficult, and when she speaks, she makes gurging > > sounds like she's > > under water. She also has difficulty hearing and > > understanding as > > well, another manifestation of the phlegm blocking > > the channels. > > > > > > My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is > an > > herb of choice > > > when phlegm is manifested with excess and > gurgling > > of phlegm in > > the > > > throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or > > pleurisy, it also > > is > > > used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary > > difficulty, and it's > > > cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart > > failure and cor > > > pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or > articles > > that > > demonstrate > > > that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible > > phlegm in excess > > > conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in > > seizure disorders > > such > > > as my wife's? > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Yehuda Frischman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jean G. Fernandes Joaquim > DMV, MS > Botucatu - SP - Brazil > F: 014-81238149 > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam > protection around > > > > > > > > http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/ > > > > > Get on board. You're invited to try the new > Mail. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Jean G. Fernandes Joaquim DMV, MS Botucatu - SP - Brazil F: 014-81238149 http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/ Get your email and more, right on the new .com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Hi Dr. Yehuda I really appreciate your coments. Thank you for the explanation. Sincerely. Jean Joaquim --- wrote: > Dear Dr. Jean, > > Remember that there are two terms for phlegm in > Chinese: tan2 which is the thick, sticky variety > and yin3, which is the term for the thinner and > less visible form of tan, and is used to describe > invisible phlegm and Wiseman translates as Rheum. I > would contend that these two " types " of phlegm are > significantly different, and at the same time > related. Tan2 I would agree is usually the result > of a dehydration from either heat, wind or both. > However, Yin3 has a different pathogenesis. As > Wiseman explains, phlegm rheum is the result of > accumulation of fluid. I would view this as a > swamping and a gumming up of the qi, actually a > cold process, with the fluids becoming viscous and > not moving. This, I would agree with you is exactly > blocking the yang qi. But the point I want to > emphasize is that this blockage of the yang qi is a > cold pattern, rather than a hot one as the first one > is. What I would theorize, is that often these two > patterns occur simultaneously, and > that both forms of viscosity, the one which comes > from stagnation (cold) and the one that comes from > wind and heat often coexist, as I think is the case > with seizure and gurgling. So when you have a > combination of internal liver wind fanning the > flames of already existant heart fire, while at the > same time you have yang qi cold vacuity preventing > the spleen from transforming and transporting, you > can have a complex pattern presenting with both Tan > and Yin. In such a case, IMO, we would need to > drive out and purge the pathogenic phlegm heat > (remember ting li zi is acrid (moving) as well as > bitter and cold) , while at the same time > supplementing, warming and supporting the spleen > yang qi. > > Respectfully, > > Yehuda > Jean G. Fernandes Joaquim DMV, MS Botucatu - SP - Brazil F: 014-81238149 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > Dear Dr. Jean, > > Remember that there are two terms for phlegm in Chinese: tan2 which is the thick, sticky variety and yin3, which is the term for the thinner and less visible form of tan, and is used to describe invisible phlegm and Wiseman translates as Rheum. The difference between phlegm (tan) and rheum (yin) does not connote a difference of visibility or invisibility. Nothing to do with that. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Dear Eric, I stand corrected. Thank you for that clarification. As you say, the 1996 edition of Fundamentals of CM, by Wiseman and Ellis says, " Nowadays, the term phegm-rheum...tends to be used in the narrow sense of propping rheum (zhi1 yin3). The clear, thin phlegm drool associating with propping rheum is the classical form of rheum, as opposed to the thicker form of phlegm. Rheum is generally said to be a thinner form of phlegm, but in practice this clear distinction is not always rigidly made. Phlegm-rheum (propping rheum) generally forms a cold phlegm pattern.... " Eric <smilinglotus wrote: Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > Dear Dr. Jean, > > Remember that there are two terms for phlegm in Chinese: tan2 which is the thick, sticky variety and yin3, which is the term for the thinner and less visible form of tan, and is used to describe invisible phlegm and Wiseman translates as Rheum. The difference between phlegm (tan) and rheum (yin) does not connote a difference of visibility or invisibility. Nothing to do with that. Eric http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/ Get on board. You're invited to try the new Mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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