Guest guest Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 Recently I have come across several modern references to the use of Spleen points to relax tight muscles. One poster recently mentioned a substance as having a muscle relaxing effect then added: " (Spleen tonic?) " . A progressive practitioner in my area who does some teaching is now teaching the use of SP-9 (Yin Ling Quan) as a point for producing a systemic muscular release. He argues that this occurs via the pivotal role of the pancreas and adrenal glands in blood sugar regulation, especially glycogen metabolism. He therefore uses it for everything from neck and shoulder tension, to lower back pain, to hypertension. One patient we shared had a 30-year history of crippling lower back pain, which he seems to have resolved over a matter of weeks with moxa and intradermal needling of SP-9. My understanding of TCM has been that muscle tension is considered " stagnation " of qi -- due to whatever cause -- and hence of all the zang-fu primarily the Liver is implicated in muscular tension. However, even from a TCM point of view, my colleague's rationale seems sound enough, given the Spleen's association with the flesh (and general influence on muscle tone). What puzzles me, though, is if this link is valid -- that stimulating the islets of langerhans in the pancreas (a direct result of stimulation of SP-9, BTW -- details for another post) and therefore improving glycogen metabolism can produce a cascade of hormonal changes that relax tight muscles, why this is not a noted effect of this point (or any other on the Spleen channel). None of the English texts I'm familiar with make this Spleen/Pancreas-tight muscles connection, nor do standard point indications for the Spleen meridian seem to refer to any muscle (or tendon) relaxing effect. Until recently I have never really considered using the Spleen directly to treat tension- related problems. Maybe I've been missing something obvious. Do others have a view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 It would be interesting to look at what texts you refer to as well as their theories. It sounds like the info you are speaking of is similar to what Kiiko Matsumoto has been teaching and using for years. I would add that she mentions usage of SP 9 for pressure pain at L4/L5 and it is needled in the location and direction that reduces this pain. One should look at internal pathways for more knowledge of distal effects as well as muscles on many channels can be released by points on a huge variety of channels. The SCM comes to mind for spleen pts as well. I would say that blood sugar is something that does need to be considered with this pathway but the location is not your typical TCM textbook. Great stuff though. Pick up her clinical text if you want to learn more about abdomen and meridian therapy. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > michael > Sun, 12 Nov 2006 23:42:29 +0000 > Spleen as muscle relaxant > > Recently I have come across several modern references to the use of Spleen points to relax > tight muscles. One poster recently mentioned a substance as having a muscle relaxing > effect then added: " (Spleen tonic?) " . A progressive practitioner in my area who does some > teaching is now teaching the use of SP-9 (Yin Ling Quan) as a point for producing a > systemic muscular release. He argues that this occurs via the pivotal role of the pancreas > and adrenal glands in blood sugar regulation, especially glycogen metabolism. He > therefore uses it for everything from neck and shoulder tension, to lower back pain, to > hypertension. One patient we shared had a 30-year history of crippling lower back pain, > which he seems to have resolved over a matter of weeks with moxa and intradermal > needling of SP-9. My understanding of TCM has been that muscle tension is considered > " stagnation " of qi -- due to whatever cause -- and hence of all the zang-fu primarily the > Liver is implicated in muscular tension. However, even from a TCM point of view, my > colleague's rationale seems sound enough, given the Spleen's association with the flesh > (and general influence on muscle tone). What puzzles me, though, is if this link is valid -- > that stimulating the islets of langerhans in the pancreas (a direct result of stimulation of > SP-9, BTW -- details for another post) and therefore improving glycogen metabolism can > produce a cascade of hormonal changes that relax tight muscles, why this is not a noted > effect of this point (or any other on the Spleen channel). None of the English texts I'm > familiar with make this Spleen/Pancreas-tight muscles connection, nor do standard point > indications for the Spleen meridian seem to refer to any muscle (or tendon) relaxing effect. > Until recently I have never really considered using the Spleen directly to treat tension- > related problems. Maybe I've been missing something obvious. Do others have a view? > _______________ Search from any Web page with powerful protection. Get the FREE Windows Live Toolbar Today! http://get.live.com/toolbar/overview Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Mike, There are two sources for information on what acupuncture points/ channels and/or Chinese medicinals do in the human body and mind. One is the collected case records and works of Chinese physicians over many centuries, the other is modern research. To conclude that needling Spleen 9 will work as a 'muscle relaxant' cannot be made by Chinese medical theory without fudging details liberally. On the other hand, making physiological connections vis a vis biomedical data is also not a basis for how an acupuncture point works without actual research. It is simply conjecture. On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:58 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > It would be interesting to look at what texts you refer to as well > as their theories. It > sounds like the info you are speaking of is similar to what Kiiko > Matsumoto has been > teaching and using for years. I would add that she mentions usage > of SP 9 for pressure > pain at L4/L5 and it is needled in the location and direction that > reduces this pain. One > should look at internal pathways for more knowledge of distal > effects as well as muscles > on many channels can be released by points on a huge variety of > channels. The SCM comes > to mind for spleen pts as well. I would say that blood sugar is > something that does need > to be considered with this pathway but the location is not your > typical TCM textbook. > Great stuff though. Pick up her clinical text if you want to learn > more about abdomen and > meridian therapy. > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > ________________________________ > > Chinese Medicine > > michael > > Sun, 12 Nov 2006 23:42:29 +0000 > > Spleen as muscle relaxant > > > > Recently I have come across several modern references to the use > of Spleen points to relax > > tight muscles. One poster recently mentioned a substance as > having a muscle relaxing > > effect then added: " (Spleen tonic?) " . A progressive practitioner > in my area who does some > > teaching is now teaching the use of SP-9 (Yin Ling Quan) as a > point for producing a > > systemic muscular release. He argues that this occurs via the > pivotal role of the pancreas > > and adrenal glands in blood sugar regulation, especially glycogen > metabolism. He > > therefore uses it for everything from neck and shoulder tension, > to lower back pain, to > > hypertension. One patient we shared had a 30-year history of > crippling lower back pain, > > which he seems to have resolved over a matter of weeks with moxa > and intradermal > > needling of SP-9. My understanding of TCM has been that muscle > tension is considered > > " stagnation " of qi -- due to whatever cause -- and hence of all > the zang-fu primarily the > > Liver is implicated in muscular tension. However, even from a TCM > point of view, my > > colleague's rationale seems sound enough, given the Spleen's > association with the flesh > > (and general influence on muscle tone). What puzzles me, though, > is if this link is valid -- > > that stimulating the islets of langerhans in the pancreas (a > direct result of stimulation of > > SP-9, BTW -- details for another post) and therefore improving > glycogen metabolism can > > produce a cascade of hormonal changes that relax tight muscles, > why this is not a noted > > effect of this point (or any other on the Spleen channel). None > of the English texts I'm > > familiar with make this Spleen/Pancreas-tight muscles connection, > nor do standard point > > indications for the Spleen meridian seem to refer to any muscle > (or tendon) relaxing effect. > > Until recently I have never really considered using the Spleen > directly to treat tension- > > related problems. Maybe I've been missing something obvious. Do > others have a view? > > > > ________ > Search from any Web page with powerful protection. Get the FREE > Windows Live Toolbar Today! > http://get.live.com/toolbar/overview > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Zev, I was not making the argument that sp9 was a " muscle relaxant " point. But my comment about its usage clinically for tension of the SCM or lowback is born out of clinical experience and classical internal trajectories. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > zrosenbe > Sun, 12 Nov 2006 21:18:49 -0800 > Re: Spleen as muscle relaxant > > Mike, > There are two sources for information on what acupuncture points/ > channels and/or Chinese medicinals do in the human body and mind. > One is the collected case records and works of Chinese physicians > over many centuries, the other is modern research. To conclude that > needling Spleen 9 will work as a 'muscle relaxant' cannot be made by > Chinese medical theory without fudging details liberally. On the > other hand, making physiological connections vis a vis biomedical > data is also not a basis for how an acupuncture point works without > actual research. It is simply conjecture. > > On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:58 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > It would be interesting to look at what texts you refer to as well > > as their theories. It > > sounds like the info you are speaking of is similar to what Kiiko > > Matsumoto has been > > teaching and using for years. I would add that she mentions usage > > of SP 9 for pressure > > pain at L4/L5 and it is needled in the location and direction that > > reduces this pain. One > > should look at internal pathways for more knowledge of distal > > effects as well as muscles > > on many channels can be released by points on a huge variety of > > channels. The SCM comes > > to mind for spleen pts as well. I would say that blood sugar is > > something that does need > > to be considered with this pathway but the location is not your > > typical TCM textbook. > > Great stuff though. Pick up her clinical text if you want to learn > > more about abdomen and > > meridian therapy. > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > ________________________________ > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @> > > > michael<michael > > > Sun, 12 Nov 2006 23:42:29 +0000 > > > Spleen as muscle relaxant > > > > > > Recently I have come across several modern references to the use > > of Spleen points to relax > > > tight muscles. One poster recently mentioned a substance as > > having a muscle relaxing > > > effect then added: " (Spleen tonic?) " . A progressive practitioner > > in my area who does some > > > teaching is now teaching the use of SP-9 (Yin Ling Quan) as a > > point for producing a > > > systemic muscular release. He argues that this occurs via the > > pivotal role of the pancreas > > > and adrenal glands in blood sugar regulation, especially glycogen > > metabolism. He > > > therefore uses it for everything from neck and shoulder tension, > > to lower back pain, to > > > hypertension. One patient we shared had a 30-year history of > > crippling lower back pain, > > > which he seems to have resolved over a matter of weeks with moxa > > and intradermal > > > needling of SP-9. My understanding of TCM has been that muscle > > tension is considered > > > " stagnation " of qi -- due to whatever cause -- and hence of all > > the zang-fu primarily the > > > Liver is implicated in muscular tension. However, even from a TCM > > point of view, my > > > colleague's rationale seems sound enough, given the Spleen's > > association with the flesh > > > (and general influence on muscle tone). What puzzles me, though, > > is if this link is valid -- > > > that stimulating the islets of langerhans in the pancreas (a > > direct result of stimulation of > > > SP-9, BTW -- details for another post) and therefore improving > > glycogen metabolism can > > > produce a cascade of hormonal changes that relax tight muscles, > > why this is not a noted > > > effect of this point (or any other on the Spleen channel). None > > of the English texts I'm > > > familiar with make this Spleen/Pancreas-tight muscles connection, > > nor do standard point > > > indications for the Spleen meridian seem to refer to any muscle > > (or tendon) relaxing effect. > > > Until recently I have never really considered using the Spleen > > directly to treat tension- > > > related problems. Maybe I've been missing something obvious. Do > > others have a view? > > > > > > > ________ > > Search from any Web page with powerful protection. Get the FREE > > Windows Live Toolbar Today! > > http://get.live.com/toolbar/overview > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Mike, I was referring to the original post which claimed that the physiological relationship of the pancreas and blood sugar levels was the rationale for Sp 9 and its use for muscle tension. Z'ev On Nov 13, 2006, at 5:46 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > Zev, > I was not making the argument that sp9 was a " muscle relaxant " > point. But my comment about its usage clinically for tension > of the SCM or lowback is born out of clinical experience and > classical internal trajectories. > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Thanks Z'ev, Mike and others I'm usually the first to resist attempts to synthesise traditional theory with Western biomedicine, but on this point the modern investigations appear to have some foundation, so perhaps I should explain a little more. While my colleague has studied Kiiko Matsumoto's work, he's also been involved peripherally in some of the meridian " mapping " taking place in the US using Dr Yoshiaki Omura's bi-digital o-ring test (BDORT), which as people are possibly aware appears to have accurately mapped the entire meridian circuit - and more. Using this method it seems that many other aspects of TCM theory can be tested, including accurate point location and point affinities. Most significantly, the BDORT testing, which its proponents believe is gold-standard reproducible, and is possibly heading more towards Western application than Eastern, shows that the meridians are where Chinese medicine (and qi gong) has been saying they are for more than 20 centuries. This is no surprise, except to Western medicine. But this mapping is also revealing several interesting phenomena -- firstly that in line with the experience of practitioners and the more recent work in the shiatsu field of Canadian Ted Saito (who has mapped three pathways for each meridian depending on degrees of disharmony), the meridians and points move about when there is a problem in the system. Like any " electrical " field, they can distort when subject to interference. I'd be very interested in others' views on this, although I was intending to raise it as a separate topic. The point for this discussion, however, is that the BDORT shows a clear resonance between the Spleen meridian and the pancreas organ (not the spleen). Again, this is no particular surprise. It further shows resonance between the point SP-9 and the islets of langerhans. Proponents therefore are proceeding on the basis that acute sensitivity (pressure pain) on this point may be diagnostic for an insulin/blood sugar disharmony. The rest of the " muscle relaxant " theory relates to glycogen build-up and resultant hyper-tonicity in the muscle tissue, which can be released by improving the performance of the pancreas/Liver/adrenal gland (whichever is malfunctioning in the glycogen metabolism pathways). Having scant interest in Western physiology, I don't know how valid this idea might be, whether it is indeed pure conjecture, or whether there might be some aspects of TCM theory or practice that I had overlooked that might support it. Michael Ellis The Lantern Journal of Traditional www.thelantern.com.au Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Dear Michael, Now that you have filled in the gaps, I find this to be very interesting indeed. I like that the BDORT does show a flexible, movable 'grid' with fluent locations of acupuncture points, as this confirms my clinical experience as well as other Japanese sources I've read. Thank you, On Nov 13, 2006, at 1:35 PM, Michael at The Lantern wrote: > Thanks Z'ev, Mike and others > I'm usually the first to resist attempts to synthesise traditional > theory with Western biomedicine, but on this point the modern > investigations appear to have some foundation, so perhaps I should > explain a little more. While my colleague has studied Kiiko > Matsumoto's > work, he's also been involved peripherally in some of the meridian > " mapping " taking place in the US using Dr Yoshiaki Omura's bi-digital > o-ring test (BDORT), which as people are possibly aware appears to > have > accurately mapped the entire meridian circuit - and more. Using this > method it seems that many other aspects of TCM theory can be tested, > including accurate point location and point affinities. Most > significantly, the BDORT testing, which its proponents believe is > gold-standard reproducible, and is possibly heading more towards > Western application than Eastern, shows that the meridians are where > Chinese medicine (and qi gong) has been saying they are for more than > 20 centuries. This is no surprise, except to Western medicine. But > this > mapping is also revealing several interesting phenomena -- firstly > that > in line with the experience of practitioners and the more recent work > in the shiatsu field of Canadian Ted Saito (who has mapped three > pathways for each meridian depending on degrees of disharmony), the > meridians and points move about when there is a problem in the system. > Like any " electrical " field, they can distort when subject to > interference. I'd be very interested in others' views on this, > although > I was intending to raise it as a separate topic. The point for this > discussion, however, is that the BDORT shows a clear resonance between > the Spleen meridian and the pancreas organ (not the spleen). Again, > this is no particular surprise. It further shows resonance between the > point SP-9 and the islets of langerhans. Proponents therefore are > proceeding on the basis that acute sensitivity (pressure pain) on this > point may be diagnostic for an insulin/blood sugar disharmony. The > rest > of the " muscle relaxant " theory relates to glycogen build-up and > resultant hyper-tonicity in the muscle tissue, which can be > released by > improving the performance of the pancreas/Liver/adrenal gland > (whichever is malfunctioning in the glycogen metabolism pathways). > Having scant interest in Western physiology, I don't know how valid > this idea might be, whether it is indeed pure conjecture, or whether > there might be some aspects of TCM theory or practice that I had > overlooked that might support it. > > Michael Ellis > The Lantern Journal of Traditional > www.thelantern.com.au > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Michael, Looks interesting. Could you post some citations where we might read more about this approach? I did a quick Google search, but what I mostly found was a fairly biased wikipedia article, which speaks more to the level of activity over at Quackwatch than it does to the specifics of the technique. Avery On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:35:04 -0500, Michael at The Lantern <michael wrote: > Thanks Z'ev, Mike and others > I'm usually the first to resist attempts to synthesise traditional > theory with Western biomedicine, but on this point the modern > investigations appear to have some foundation, so perhaps I should > explain a little more. While my colleague has studied Kiiko Matsumoto's > work, he's also been involved peripherally in some of the meridian > " mapping " taking place in the US using Dr Yoshiaki Omura's bi-digital > o-ring test (BDORT), which as people are possibly aware appears to have > accurately mapped the entire meridian circuit - and more. Using this > method it seems that many other aspects of TCM theory can be tested, > including accurate point location and point affinities. Most > significantly, the BDORT testing, which its proponents believe is > gold-standard reproducible, and is possibly heading more towards > Western application than Eastern, shows that the meridians are where > Chinese medicine (and qi gong) has been saying they are for more than > 20 centuries. This is no surprise, except to Western medicine. But this > mapping is also revealing several interesting phenomena -- firstly that > in line with the experience of practitioners and the more recent work > in the shiatsu field of Canadian Ted Saito (who has mapped three > pathways for each meridian depending on degrees of disharmony), the > meridians and points move about when there is a problem in the system. > Like any " electrical " field, they can distort when subject to > interference. I'd be very interested in others' views on this, although > I was intending to raise it as a separate topic. The point for this > discussion, however, is that the BDORT shows a clear resonance between > the Spleen meridian and the pancreas organ (not the spleen). Again, > this is no particular surprise. It further shows resonance between the > point SP-9 and the islets of langerhans. Proponents therefore are > proceeding on the basis that acute sensitivity (pressure pain) on this > point may be diagnostic for an insulin/blood sugar disharmony. The rest > of the " muscle relaxant " theory relates to glycogen build-up and > resultant hyper-tonicity in the muscle tissue, which can be released by > improving the performance of the pancreas/Liver/adrenal gland > (whichever is malfunctioning in the glycogen metabolism pathways). > Having scant interest in Western physiology, I don't know how valid > this idea might be, whether it is indeed pure conjecture, or whether > there might be some aspects of TCM theory or practice that I had > overlooked that might support it. > > > > > > Michael Ellis > The Lantern Journal of Traditional > www.thelantern.com.au > > -- Avery L. Jenkins, DC, FIAMA, DACBN Chiropractic Physician Fellow, International Academy of Medical Acupuncturists Diplomate, American Clinical Board of Nutrition www.docaltmed.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 I agree with Mike. I am using Sp 9 a lot now, because of Kiiko's work. Not only does it release L4/5, but also the trapezius. GB 21 is the point that is held to find the correct location of Sp 9, which should loosen it. It also helps a bit with lateral hip pain. Then ofcourse as a local point for the knees...I think I even use it more than Sp 6. Gabrielle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Dear Avery Yes, I'll endeavour to get together what web references I can on the BDORT and its findings. To begin with, a very, very basic explanation on Tetsuro Saito's college website of his " three degrees " of meridian movement: http://www.shinso-shiatsu.com/index.php/en/content/C32/ Saito is a former student of Shizuto Masunaga, the founder of " zen " shiatsu 30 years ago, shortly before he died, who is most famous for describing " extensions " to the classical meridian system, an idea adopted by adherents of his shiatsu school that effectively sidelined shiatsu among mainstream energetic therapies (ie acupuncture). Saito is now saying that he has been able to map the classical meridian system, describing three distinct positions for each meridian. That is, each meridian has a normal pathway (first degree) which it follows in health. It also has a second pathway it commonly moves towards when an imbalance/disharmony appears at the channel level, and a third pathway (third degree position) when a meridian's associated organ becomes diseased. The pathways move by only small degrees in some segments, but quite considerably in others. Not only do the meridians move about, but also their diagnostic points and areas. If confirmed, this is a real problem for those who use palpation diagnosis! Saito has not used the bi-digital o-ring test, BTW, but another test known to Japanese acupuncturists as the " Dr Irie finger test " , but it seems both tests come up with the same maps. Saito's work appears to explain many things, such as why Japanese and Chinese acupuncturists locate some points differently, why Masunaga found " extensions " to classical meridians (although he did so without the benefit of either of these mapping methods, presumably through an extraordinary sensitivity to qi flow) and bearing out clinical experience that points often do not appear exactly where the chart says they should. The BDORT people have taken this idea a great deal further and done extensive mapping and testing of points and diagnostic areas (mapping mu points to create " live " hara palpation maps, and so on). As a complete newcomer to this group, I'm in the dark as to previous discussion in this area. Is this new to everyone or not? Anyhow, will post more specific references as soon as I can get them together. Michael Michael Ellis The Lantern Journal of Traditional www.thelantern.com.au Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Would there be more info on this work available? I also find this interesting. Thanks Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > zrosenbe > Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:44:10 -0800 > Re: Re: Spleen as muscle relaxant > > Dear Michael, > Now that you have filled in the gaps, I find this to be very > interesting indeed. I like that the BDORT does show a flexible, > movable 'grid' with fluent locations of acupuncture points, as this > confirms my clinical experience as well as other Japanese sources > I've read. > Thank you, > > On Nov 13, 2006, at 1:35 PM, Michael at The Lantern wrote: > > Thanks Z'ev, Mike and others > > I'm usually the first to resist attempts to synthesise traditional > > theory with Western biomedicine, but on this point the modern > > investigations appear to have some foundation, so perhaps I should > > explain a little more. While my colleague has studied Kiiko > > Matsumoto's > > work, he's also been involved peripherally in some of the meridian > > " mapping " taking place in the US using Dr Yoshiaki Omura's bi-digital > > o-ring test (BDORT), which as people are possibly aware appears to > > have > > accurately mapped the entire meridian circuit - and more. Using this > > method it seems that many other aspects of TCM theory can be tested, > > including accurate point location and point affinities. Most > > significantly, the BDORT testing, which its proponents believe is > > gold-standard reproducible, and is possibly heading more towards > > Western application than Eastern, shows that the meridians are where > > Chinese medicine (and qi gong) has been saying they are for more than > > 20 centuries. This is no surprise, except to Western medicine. But > > this > > mapping is also revealing several interesting phenomena -- firstly > > that > > in line with the experience of practitioners and the more recent work > > in the shiatsu field of Canadian Ted Saito (who has mapped three > > pathways for each meridian depending on degrees of disharmony), the > > meridians and points move about when there is a problem in the system. > > Like any " electrical " field, they can distort when subject to > > interference. I'd be very interested in others' views on this, > > although > > I was intending to raise it as a separate topic. The point for this > > discussion, however, is that the BDORT shows a clear resonance between > > the Spleen meridian and the pancreas organ (not the spleen). Again, > > this is no particular surprise. It further shows resonance between the > > point SP-9 and the islets of langerhans. Proponents therefore are > > proceeding on the basis that acute sensitivity (pressure pain) on this > > point may be diagnostic for an insulin/blood sugar disharmony. The > > rest > > of the " muscle relaxant " theory relates to glycogen build-up and > > resultant hyper-tonicity in the muscle tissue, which can be > > released by > > improving the performance of the pancreas/Liver/adrenal gland > > (whichever is malfunctioning in the glycogen metabolism pathways). > > Having scant interest in Western physiology, I don't know how valid > > this idea might be, whether it is indeed pure conjecture, or whether > > there might be some aspects of TCM theory or practice that I had > > overlooked that might support it. > > > > Michael Ellis > > The Lantern Journal of Traditional > > www.thelantern.com.au > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 Zev, Thanks for clarifying. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > zrosenbe > Mon, 13 Nov 2006 07:52:13 -0800 > Re: Spleen as muscle relaxant > > Mike, > I was referring to the original post which claimed that the > physiological relationship of the pancreas and blood sugar levels was > the rationale for Sp 9 and its use for muscle tension. > Z'ev > On Nov 13, 2006, at 5:46 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > Zev, > > I was not making the argument that sp9 was a " muscle relaxant " > > point. But my comment about its usage clinically for tension > > of the SCM or lowback is born out of clinical experience and > > classical internal trajectories. > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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