Guest guest Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Eti wrote: >>>Hello All, I have a patient, 24 year old male, with excessive sweating from armpits, hands and feet. Dripping. constant. He has a history of drug use (ecstasy, marijuana, cocaine) he drinks regularly and eats a diet rich in meats and sweets. He is shaky, anxious. Some agrophobia, restless. Excess dreams, alot of sexual dreaming. vivid dreams. T is swollen, pink red, moisture visible on tongue. P huan mai, ki slightly xu mai. Acupuncture makes it better temporarily. , I have had him on Jin gui shen qi wan for a month or so with no signig=ficant changes. Any suggestions?<<< Eti, This person appears to be qi and yin vacuous with a ying and wei disharmony and probably an overloaded/overtaxed liver. Perhaps Liu Wei Di Huang Wan or Yi Guan Jian along with Gui Zhi Tang or some judicious mixture of pieces and parts of the above will help. I have one teenage patient with a history of drug use, mainly marijuana but also ecstasy and some other drugs I didn't grow up with, who tended to sweat profusely from one armpit only. I put him on Gui Zhi Tang and Xiao Chai Hu Tang along with simple needling of Lu-7 and Liv-2 or Liv-6 as often as possible, and he resolved quickly. However, he had no other particular health concerns. But he isn't old enough to have a long enough history of drug use to develop such problems. Nor does he appear to have a truly addictive personality, so he probably never will use drugs that heavily. But it worries me that so many young people are using drugs while their bodies are still growing. When I started using recreational drugs back in the 1970s I was already more-or-less 'full-growed', at least, and I think that minimized long-term health effects. Anyway, those are my initial thoughts. Joseph Garner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Eti wrote: >>>Hello All, I have a patient, 24 year old male, with excessive sweating from armpits, hands and feet. Dripping. constant. He has a history of drug use (ecstasy, marijuana, cocaine) he drinks regularly and eats a diet rich in meats and sweets. He is shaky, anxious. Some agrophobia, restless. Excess dreams, alot of sexual dreaming. vivid dreams. T is swollen, pink red, moisture visible on tongue. P huan mai, ki slightly xu mai. Acupuncture makes it better temporarily. , I have had him on Jin gui shen qi wan for a month or so with no signig=ficant changes. Any suggestions?? AcuClinic: Acupuncture and Herbs Eti Domb, L.Ac.<<< Eti, Ken's post about lifestyle prompted me to remember other points I meant to make in my post but forgot after getting into the herbs, acupuncture and drug issues. Your patient needs to know that if he continues drinking a lot and eating meats and sweets to apparent excess that his problem will continue in spite of treatment or will return after apparent resolution. And Ken's post and Marnae's presentation at the conference suggest that sexual issues are indeed worth discussing with him. Addictive behaviors in one area tend to beget addictive behaviors in others. He's awfully young to be having this list of ills. And his yin and fluids need replacing (and astringed) ASAP. Joseph Garner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Eti, Your patient brings to mind a sentence attributed to Peng Zhu, the so-called Chinese Methuselah who is cited as a source of various statements and ideas related to Chinese sexual cultivation and the arts of long life: You can take all the herbs and get all the acupuncture and moxibustion you want, but if you don't know the art of yin and yang these things will have no use. Of course by the art of yin and yang we can understand various things but generally it begins with the art of sex, i.e., the union of yin and yang, as it was called in the Ma Wang Dui scrolls. Without seeing and putting my hands on your patient, there's little I can offer in the way of specific advice, but I'd suggest you inquire concerning his sexual activity as well as his overall physical activity. In general, I suspect that his behavior is disordered and he generally is out of control with respect to the circulation and release of forces and fluids throughout his body. Can you get him to study Taiji? I forget where you are located. Are there good Taiji teachers around? He's at a point in his development where he has an opportunity to do something effective about his condition, but he should be told very plainly that his youth no doubt masks more serious problems he can expect to encounter in later life, should he get there. One of the things I've noticed about contemporary life in the so-called developed world, especially the USA, is that it tends to rob people of their future, forcing them into a live for the moment philosophy and lifestyle. Or they feel that by saving money or having a good retirement plan they have somehow provided for their " old age. " But most people do make it to their own future, and lo and behold, all they've got is what they brought with them. I'd be very interested in knowing how your conversations with this young man go. What do you say? What do you ask? How does he respond? Will he talk with you openly about his sexual behavior? I mean in detailed terms? Can you find our how many times he engages in sexual intercourse in a week? How often does he ejaculate? Does he masturbate? How often. Do his sexual dreams result in ejaculation? How is the quantity of his ejaculate? Overall, what is the quality of his sexual life? Does he find sex enjoyable? How does he feel when he has just finished having sex? Is he exhausted? And how about the emotional dimension of all the foregoing? At what angle does his heart relate to his physical and sexual activities? Maybe it's just the fact that I've spent so much time lately reading, studying, teaching, and working with the materials on Daoist sexual alchemy, but I get the distinct impression from your brief description of the patient that he has sexual issues in play related to the excessive sweating. How is his heart? Is there any slightest irregularity in his pulse? If so, is it regular irregularity or irregular irregularity? Sorry to go on at such length, but I'm right in the middle of writing about these issues, and I would greatly appreciate input from you or anyone on the list related to the kinds of questions and issues I've raised above. And if they don't, in fact, have all that much to do with your patient, so be it. Just some random thoughts your post provoked. Ken > > I have a patient, 24 year old male, with excessive sweating from armpits, hands and feet. Dripping. constant. > > He has a history of drug use (ecstasy, marijuana, cocaine) he drinks regularly and eats a diet rich in meats and sweets. > > He is shaky, anxious. Some agrophobia, restless. Excess dreams, alot of sexual dreaming. vivid dreams. > T is swollen, pink red, moisture visible on tongue. > P huan mai, ki slightly xu mai. > > Acupuncture makes it better temporarily. , I have had him on Jin gui shen qi wan for a month or so with no signig=ficant changes. > > Any suggestions?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Good points, Ken. After looking at your case, Eti, I suspected damage to heart qi. I think you should look at medicinals such as long gu, mu li and the like to astringe sweating, anchor the shen, and harmonize heart and kidney (shao yin, fire and water, yin and yang). A prescription that comes to mind for me is gui zhi jia long gu mu li tang. Remember this prescription is indicated for sexual problems, in line with what Ken was talking about. On Monday, June 16, 2003, at 04:29 PM, dragon90405 wrote: > How is his heart? Is there any slightest > irregularity in his pulse? If so, is it > regular irregularity or irregular irregularity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 i asked him about sexual function. he said he masturbates almost daily and has a high sex drive. he has had severe sleeping problems and cannot sleep without smaoking marijuana. I gave him jin gui shen qi tang jia jian: shengdi, huang qi, shan zhu yu, ze xie, fu ling, rou gui, shan yao, he huan pi, mu li, yuan zhi, bai zi ren, suan zao ren. Eti <zrosenbe wrote: Good points, Ken. After looking at your case, Eti, I suspected damage to heart qi. I think you should look at medicinals such as long gu, mu li and the like to astringe sweating, anchor the shen, and harmonize heart and kidney (shao yin, fire and water, yin and yang).A prescription that comes to mind for me is gui zhi jia long gu mu li tang.Remember this prescription is indicated for sexual problems, in line with what Ken was talking about.On Monday, June 16, 2003, at 04:29 PM, dragon90405 wrote:> How is his heart? Is there any slightest> irregularity in his pulse? If so, is it> regular irregularity or irregular irregularity?Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Joseph, you are quite right. he stopped drinking and hopefully soon will stop smoking and eating lots of junk. I was giving him a prepared version of jin gui shen qi wan but now I am giving him a raw modification. Hopefully his condition will shift, he is willing to cook the herbs and do what it takes. we have good rapport now. Eti Eti,Ken's post about lifestyle prompted me to remember other points I meant to make in my post but forgot after getting into the herbs, acupuncture and drug issues. Your patient needs to know that if he continues drinking a lot and eating meats and sweets to apparent excess that his problem will continue in spite of treatment or will return after apparent resolution. And Ken's post and Marnae's presentation at the conference suggest that sexual issues are indeed worth discussing with him. Addictive behaviors in one area tend to beget addictive behaviors in others. He's awfully young to be having this list of ills. And his yin and fluids need replacing (and astringed) ASAP.Joseph Garner Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Eti, I had a little different thought - with constant dripping, excess / sexual / vivid dreams.. I was thinking of 'first clear the excess and then tonify the deficiencies'. With this presentation and some of the info about lifestyle, I might be trying to r/o excess damp or phlegm with heat. Anxiety is often present in people with drug use (self-medicating and side effect of some drugs). I think in the gold Maciocia book, in his 'Maciocia's Interpretation of Dreams' section (that's a joke, in case anyone takes me seriously) he says that dreams associated with sex are related to the Liver. One formula I like in this vien is Wen Dan Jia Huang Lian Tang. You also might want to check to see if your patient is brushing their tongue. I find a lot of people with thick tongue coats are in the habit of burshing their tounge, reducing the coat. As a side note - I don't know if a rooted thick tongue coating will be removed by vigorous brushing or not, but my guess is that it would be. I've had a patient recently with a similar background (but different MC) who has recently been turning the corner. I think my patient taught me to be more patient (oops.. no pun intended). Initial results were not great, but I persisted, and things seem to be doing well now, which is consistent with what I heard from peers to expect when treating patients like this. Geoff > __________ > > Message: 16 > Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:37:18 -0700 (PDT) > Eti Domb <etidomb > excessive sweating > > Hello All, > > I have a patient, 24 year old male, with excessive sweating > from armpits, hands and feet. Dripping. constant. > > He has a history of drug use (ecstasy, marijuana, cocaine) he > drinks regularly and eats a diet rich in meats and sweets. > > He is shaky, anxious. Some agrophobia, restless. Excess > dreams, alot of sexual dreaming. vivid dreams. > T is swollen, pink red, moisture visible on tongue. > P huan mai, ki slightly xu mai. > > Acupuncture makes it better temporarily. , I have had him on > Jin gui shen qi wan for a month or so with no signig=ficant changes. > > Any suggestions?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Good idea, Geoff, I will try that formula or something similiar depending on what results I see this week from the raw formula he is taking. Geoffrey Hudson <list wrote: Eti,I had a little different thought - with constant dripping, excess /sexual / vivid dreams.. I was thinking of 'first clear the excess andthen tonify the deficiencies'. With this presentation and some of theinfo about lifestyle, I might be trying to r/o excess damp or phlegmwith heat. Anxiety is often present in people with drug use(self-medicating and side effect of some drugs). I think in the goldMaciocia book, in his 'Maciocia's Interpretation of Dreams' section(that's a joke, in case anyone takes me seriously) he says that dreamsassociated with sex are related to the Liver. One formula I like inthis vien is Wen Dan Jia Huang Lian Tang.You also might want to check to see if your patient is brushing theirtongue. I find a lot of people with thick tongue coats are in the habitof burshing their tounge, reducing the coat. As a side note - I don't know if a rooted thick tongue coating will beremoved by vigorous brushing or not, but my guess is that it would be.I've had a patient recently with a similar background (but different MC)who has recently been turning the corner. I think my patient taught meto be more patient (oops.. no pun intended). Initial results were notgreat, but I persisted, and things seem to be doing well now, which isconsistent with what I heard from peers to expect when treating patientslike this.Geoff> __________> > Message: 16> Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:37:18 -0700 (PDT)> Eti Domb <etidomb> excessive sweating> > Hello All,> > I have a patient, 24 year old male, with excessive sweating > from armpits, hands and feet. Dripping. constant. > > He has a history of drug use (ecstasy, marijuana, cocaine) he > drinks regularly and eats a diet rich in meats and sweets. > > He is shaky, anxious. Some agrophobia, restless. Excess > dreams, alot of sexual dreaming. vivid dreams. > T is swollen, pink red, moisture visible on tongue. > P huan mai, ki slightly xu mai. > > Acupuncture makes it better temporarily. , I have had him on > Jin gui shen qi wan for a month or so with no signig=ficant changes. > > Any suggestions??Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Also in line with the Jin Gui Yao Lue. Marnae At 05:10 PM 6/16/2003 -0700, you wrote: Good points, Ken. After looking at your case, Eti, I suspected damage to heart qi. I think you should look at medicinals such as long gu, mu li and the like to astringe sweating, anchor the shen, and harmonize heart and kidney (shao yin, fire and water, yin and yang). A prescription that comes to mind for me is gui zhi jia long gu mu li tang. Remember this prescription is indicated for sexual problems, in line with what Ken was talking about. On Monday, June 16, 2003, at 04:29 PM, dragon90405 wrote: > How is his heart? Is there any slightest > irregularity in his pulse? If so, is it > regular irregularity or irregular irregularity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Ken, dragon90405 <yulong wrote: How does he respond? When I inquired he became nervous and his sweat increased but he did talk to me honestly. I asked him while he was on the table. Will he talk withyou openly about his sexual behavior?I mean in detailed terms? I can inquire more next time during the interview... Can you findour how many times he engages in sexualintercourse in a week? I will ask, I think its every few days when in a relationship, and he feels like its not enough. How often doeshe ejaculate? Does he masturbate? Masturbation when no relationship every day/other day. Howoften.Do his sexual dreams result in ejaculation? NoneHow is the quantity of his ejaculate? I will askOverall, what is the quality of his sexuallife? Does he find sex enjoyable? Howdoes he feel when he has just finishedhaving sex? Is he exhausted? I will askI will report next week after I see him. EtiAcuClinic: Acupuncture and HerbsEti Domb, L.Ac.1281 University Ave, Suite ESan Diego, CA 92103619.543.9280 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 I was wondering if there is any generic acupuncture treatment for excessive sweating. Only other symptom in this 50 year old healthy male is urinary retention which is worse with stress and actually caused him to use Uroxatal for a while to relieve the symptoms. Acupuncture treatments seemed to relieve the urinary symptoms, but not the sweating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 At 08:55 AM 11/16/2006, " RIck Botto " <rickbotto wrote: >I was wondering if there is any generic acupuncture treatment for >excessive sweating.... In terms of standard point functions, I learned, from multiple sources: To affect sweating (either promote or reduce): Ki-7 -- FuLiu To induce/promote: add LI-4 -- HeGu To reduce/astringe: add Ht-6 -- YinXi and also a SanJiao point on the hand to add for excessive/spontaneous/night sweats, but I can't recall it exactly and my reference books are at the clinic (DSL/email here at home) -- check actions/functions in Ellis, Wiseman & Boss " Fundamentals of Chinese Acupuncture " or others here probably supply the specific point. -- Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.6/536 - Release 11/16/2006 3:51 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 What's the pattern analysis? Usually, sweating in the day is associated with a deficiency of Qi whilst at night its associated with a deficiency of Yin. Attilio Chinese Medicine , < wrote: > > At 08:55 AM 11/16/2006, " RIck Botto " <rickbotto > wrote: > > >I was wondering if there is any generic acupuncture treatment for > >excessive sweating.... > > In terms of standard point functions, I learned, from multiple sources: > > To affect sweating (either promote or reduce): Ki-7 -- FuLiu > > To induce/promote: add LI-4 -- HeGu > > To reduce/astringe: add Ht-6 -- YinXi > > and also a SanJiao point on the hand to add for > excessive/spontaneous/night sweats, but I can't recall it exactly and > my reference books are at the clinic (DSL/email here at home) -- > check actions/functions in Ellis, Wiseman & Boss " Fundamentals of > Chinese Acupuncture " > or others here probably supply the specific point. > > > > > > -- > > > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.6/536 - Release Date: 11/16/2006 3:51 PM > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 Hi Rick, What point combination did you use for the urinary retention. I have a similar case, 24 years old male, in which I diagnosed the urinary retention with a underlying liver qi stagnation pattern ,but didn't get significant results. 2006/11/16, RIck Botto <rickbotto: > > I was wondering if there is any generic acupuncture treatment for > excessive sweating. Only other symptom in this 50 year old healthy > male is urinary retention which is worse with stress and actually > caused him to use Uroxatal for a while to relieve the symptoms. > Acupuncture treatments seemed to relieve the urinary symptoms, but not > the sweating. > > __ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 For the urinary retention, from overactive sphincter muscle according to his urologist, I used ST36, KI3, KI7, CV4, GV20, then had the patient turn over to stimulate BL18, BL20, BL23. He was 100% symptom free for a month, treated once a week. On the fifth visit he said there was some pressure sensation, but it was mild and he had not resorted to taking the medication again. We will see next week if the treatments hold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Patient sweats all day long. It is not night sweats. It is worse with stress, not limited to hands and feet although these are certainly a problem. Strong, healthy, vibrant person, doesn't seem like Qi deficiency. Other options? Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > > What's the pattern analysis? Usually, sweating in the day is > associated with a deficiency of Qi whilst at night its associated > with a deficiency of Yin. > > Attilio > > > Chinese Medicine , > <@> wrote: > > > > At 08:55 AM 11/16/2006, " RIck Botto " <rickbotto@> > > wrote: > > > > >I was wondering if there is any generic acupuncture treatment for > > >excessive sweating.... > > > > In terms of standard point functions, I learned, from multiple > sources: > > > > To affect sweating (either promote or reduce): Ki-7 -- > FuLiu > > > > To induce/promote: add LI-4 -- HeGu > > > > To reduce/astringe: add Ht-6 -- YinXi > > > > and also a SanJiao point on the hand to add for > > excessive/spontaneous/night sweats, but I can't recall it exactly > and > > my reference books are at the clinic (DSL/email here at home) -- > > check actions/functions in Ellis, Wiseman & Boss " Fundamentals of > > Chinese Acupuncture " > > or others here probably supply the specific point. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.6/536 - Release Date: > 11/16/2006 3:51 PM > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Stress and worry are associated with the Spleen. Sweating in the day is associated with a deficinecy of Qi, or the Spleen as the Spleen and Stomach are the source of Qi and Blood. Check if there are any other Spleen deficinecy symptoms such as poor appetite, weight loss, pale face, poor digestion, irregular bowel movements, tiredness, poor memory, thick white coating on the tongue and a slippery pulse. If so, then strengthen the Spleen and astringe Yin loss. Attilio Chinese Medicine , " RIck Botto " <rickbotto wrote: > > Patient sweats all day long. It is not night sweats. It is worse > with stress, not limited to hands and feet although these are > certainly a problem. Strong, healthy, vibrant person, doesn't seem > like Qi deficiency. Other options? > > Chinese Medicine , " Attilio > DAlberto " <attiliodalberto@> wrote: > > > > What's the pattern analysis? Usually, sweating in the day is > > associated with a deficiency of Qi whilst at night its associated > > with a deficiency of Yin. > > > > Attilio > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > At 08:55 AM 11/16/2006, " RIck Botto " <rickbotto@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > >I was wondering if there is any generic acupuncture treatment for > > > >excessive sweating.... > > > > > > In terms of standard point functions, I learned, from multiple > > sources: > > > > > > To affect sweating (either promote or reduce): Ki-7 -- > > FuLiu > > > > > > To induce/promote: add LI-4 -- HeGu > > > > > > To reduce/astringe: add Ht-6 -- YinXi > > > > > > and also a SanJiao point on the hand to add for > > > excessive/spontaneous/night sweats, but I can't recall it exactly > > and > > > my reference books are at the clinic (DSL/email here at home) - - > > > check actions/functions in Ellis, Wiseman & Boss " Fundamentals of > > > Chinese Acupuncture " > > > or others here probably supply the specific point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.6/536 - Release Date: > > 11/16/2006 3:51 PM > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Rick, Thanks for answering. In your first email you stated that the patient is healthy and the urinary retention becomes worse with stress. That seems like pattern of qi stagnation, why then did you choose supplementing points? What was your pattern differentiation and the treatment strategy? Thanks, Guy 2006/11/18, RIck Botto <rickbotto: > For the urinary retention, from overactive sphincter muscle according > to his urologist, I used ST36, KI3, KI7, CV4, GV20, then had the > patient turn over to stimulate BL18, BL20, BL23. He was 100% symptom > free for a month, treated once a week. On the fifth visit he said > there was some pressure sensation, but it was mild and he had not > resorted to taking the medication again. We will see next week if the > treatments hold. > > > > . > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 HI Rick I think Attilio's question is an important one....what was your pattern discrimination? What have you tried so far and what were the results of these attempts? Stress and frustration are associated with Liver Wood and lead to Qi stagnation which can transform into Heat (heat could lead to sweat). If stress triggers the problem, this implicates some form of Wood imbalance being present. Do the other symptoms/signs support this? Or did Wood issues not pan out? Stephen Woodley LAc RIck Botto <rickbotto wrote: Patient sweats all day long. It is not night sweats. It is worse with stress, not limited to hands and feet although these are certainly a problem. Strong, healthy, vibrant person, doesn't seem like Qi deficiency. Other options? Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > > What's the pattern analysis? Usually, sweating in the day is > associated with a deficiency of Qi whilst at night its associated > with a deficiency of Yin. > > Attilio > > Recent Activity 9 New Members 1 New Files Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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