Guest guest Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 >>I priced my services not only to be competitive with my fellow L.Ac.'s but to make them available to more people. While most of my patients are from within 10 miles of my office, I draw from the whole valley with several patients willing to drive an hour or more one way to see me. I make a good living (by keeping my overhead low) and am fairly busy. I've been in practice for over 2 years.<< Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Hi Christopher, Can you detail what you do to keep your overhead low? Thanks, Trish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Hi Trish, I teach practice management at PIHMA so this is a topic dear to my heart. It seems that many of us acupuncturists drop the ball when it comes to the business side of our practice. I wish all of us could be successful making a good living doing what we love. Here are a few things I do to keep my overhead low - 1) I work solo. I don't have an office manager. Save $20 - $30 thousand a year or about $2500 a month. A $54 a month business line comes with voicemail. I may loose a potential patient or two a month because I can't answer the phone right away, but it isn't enough to justify a whole salary. If I was much busier, I would need an office manager, but I just haven't reached that point and I'm not sure I want to. I like keeping my patient load between 25 and 30 patients a week for my own energy and sanity. 2) I have a smaller office space. My rent is $1200 a month for 600 square feet, which is pretty cheap for Scottsdale. 3) I have two treatment rooms, but one of them was going un-used most of the time since I only book one person at a time for a hour (the way I like it). So I sub-leased the other room to a reiki practitioner, reducing my rent effectively to $700 a month. I typically cover my rent within 2 - 4 days of seeing patients. 4) I target my marketing. I only spend money on marketing the produces good results. This means that I track carefully where patients hear of me. 5) My only other expenses are needles, herbs, office supplies and my phone line. On a typical month my total overhead for a month is about $1200. At $65 a patient I need to see about 19 patients a month to break even. I'm currently seeing about 80 - 100 a month. That leaves a net income of about $4000 - $5000 a month. While I won't get rich at that rate, it is a comfortable living doing what I love and not being so busy that I burn out (something very important to keep in mind!). I also teach 2 days a week at the local acupuncture college supplementing my income an additional $800 a month. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 9832 N. Hayden Rd. Suite 215 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of pippa258 Thursday, January 18, 2007 6:35 AM Chinese Medicine Keeping Overhead Low >>I priced my services not only to be competitive with my fellow L.Ac.'s but to make them available to more people. While most of my patients are from within 10 miles of my office, I draw from the whole valley with several patients willing to drive an hour or more one way to see me. I make a good living (by keeping my overhead low) and am fairly busy. I've been in practice for over 2 years.<< Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Hi Christopher, Can you detail what you do to keep your overhead low? Thanks, Trish -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.29/607 - Release 12/28/2006 12:31 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for sheets and gowns...since i am a male practitioner with many female patients and I tend to treat Back Shu points quite regulalrly....it's a big expense but i don't see paper sheeting or gowns as an alternative, either ecologically or comfort wise....my office is cleaned, weekly, for $50-, much better than I could do ....I see 35-45 people a week at a sliding scale of $48-$60... Turiya Hill, L.Ac. Nevada City, Ca.----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Turiya, I wash my own sheets and gowns. Maria K. _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Turiya Hill Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:18 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Keeping Overhead Low For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for sheets and gowns...since i am a male practitioner with many female patients and I tend to treat Back Shu points quite regulalrly....it's a big expense but i don't see paper sheeting or gowns as an alternative, either ecologically or comfort wise....my office is cleaned, weekly, for $50-, much better than I could do ....I see 35-45 people a week at a sliding scale of $48-$60... Turiya Hill, L.Ac. Nevada City, Ca.----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 I'm a single parent....so it becomes, for me, one pretty big extra chore, especially the folding part!!...but thanks for the insight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 No sheets, paper, and yes I use gowns. Hugo --- Turiya Hill <turiya wrote: > For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks > use sheets and gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill _________ The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 I rarely use gowns as I hate doing laundry! Because I practice Master Tung's and Classical Acupuncture, I rarely use the back shu points, local points or Ashi points. I use mainly points below the elbow or knees. This way no extra laundry! Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, PhD chusauli www.chusaulei.com > " Turiya Hill " <turiya >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: Keeping Overhead Low >Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:53:05 -0800 > >I'm a single parent....so it becomes, for me, one pretty big extra chore, >especially the folding part!!...but thanks for the insight > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Turiya, I use neither sheets nor gowns. I use table paper, and have my female clients wear their bras, and I will ask for permission to open them if I need to. I cover my patients with a towel if working in the groin or buttocks regions. Turiya Hill <turiya wrote: For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for sheets and gowns...since i am a male practitioner with many female patients and I tend to treat Back Shu points quite regulalrly....it's a big expense but i don't see paper sheeting or gowns as an alternative, either ecologically or comfort wise....my office is cleaned, weekly, for $50-, much better than I could do .....I see 35-45 people a week at a sliding scale of $48-$60... Turiya Hill, L.Ac. Nevada City, Ca.----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Turiya: I don't use gowns, only a set of sheets. I should use table paper but have not as yet. I don't think you need gowns. What we did in our clinic was take a sheet and wrap it around the patient's neck, covering the chest but still being able to get to the middle of the chest CV 17 and CV 15 (without a bra on). It is a little tricky with the back shu points. I have the patient sit up when I do them and just lift the sheet to start counting TI.... I need them to sit pretty straight with hands in lap. That is the hardest part, they want to bend their neck to help you. I just say I can manage the sheet, but they should sit straight. We really should use paper between patients (we did it at our clinic), but I would not change the sheets, maybe once every 20 patients (whatever you are comfortable with). I have two sheets and a blanket. I always make the patient feel comfortable and private, men and women. I am often in the room when they are changing or dressing. I cover them w ith a sheet the minute they are ready to get on the table and when they are dressing at the end I just fiddle with paperwork while they are dressing. I remember Nikki Bilton saying there was a dynamic around this. Some patients (usually women) request that I leave, and of course I honor this. With 45 people a week you may need the cleaning - you could stretch that to every two weeks or a month and you just do the in between. You guys are seeing a lot more patients than us talky 5E people. My rates are much higher, but if they weren't I couldn't make a living at this. Hope this helps, Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Turiya Hill " <turiya > For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and gowns.?....my > monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for sheets and gowns...since i am a > male practitioner with many female patients and I tend to treat Back Shu points > quite regulalrly....it's a big expense but i don't see paper sheeting or gowns > as an alternative, either ecologically or comfort wise....my office is cleaned, > weekly, for $50-, much better than I could do ....I see 35-45 people a week at > a sliding scale of $48-$60... > > > Turiya Hill, L.Ac. > > Nevada City, Ca.----- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 I decided a few years ago to wash, dry and fold the stuff myself at home. Having raised four kids and spent years washing everything from cloth diapers to soccer uniforms, I don't find it a big deal. It definitely saves money and I like the way I do them better than the way the laundry service did. Peace, Liz Casey - Turiya Hill Chinese Medicine Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:17 PM Re: Keeping Overhead Low For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for sheets and gowns...since i am a male practitioner with many female patients and I tend to treat Back Shu points quite regulalrly....it's a big expense but i don't see paper sheeting or gowns as an alternative, either ecologically or comfort wise....my office is cleaned, weekly, for $50-, much better than I could do .....I see 35-45 people a week at a sliding scale of $48-$60... Turiya Hill, L.Ac. Nevada City, Ca.----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 I used to use paper sheets until they became more expensive than cloth. I have been using the same 30 $3 Ikea sheets for close to a year now and they are still doing fine. My policy is that if they get blood on them get retired into rags. So far I have only had this happen once. I launder the sheets about once a week at home. With a good sized washer it is only a single load and so isn't such a big deal. I fold them myself which is the most time consuming part of the process. I use paper protectors for the head and leg pillows which are changed for each patient, but these are very cheap and MUCH easier than changing the pillow cases after each patient. I don't use gowns but use large white towels instead that the patient can drape over themselves. Much cheaper, easier and more versatile. Nightly cleaning and trash removal is included in my rent. If we look at your situation Turiya, say you see 40 patients a week who pay on average $55. That is about $9000 a month gross. Spending $200 for laundry and $50 for cleaning is less than 3% of your gross. This isn't too bad. I pay about that much to process credit cards. If you are busy enough, your time is probably better spent seeing patients than doing laundry so paying for laundry service and cleaning makes sense. If you aren't that busy it shifts the equation. For every practitioner these more mundane tasks can eat up a lot of time and Qi. The question is when are you busy enough that you are eating into time you could be seeing patients? Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 9832 N. Hayden Rd. Suite 215 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Turiya Hill Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:18 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Keeping Overhead Low For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for sheets and gowns...since i am a male practitioner with many female patients and I tend to treat Back Shu points quite regulalrly....it's a big expense but i don't see paper sheeting or gowns as an alternative, either ecologically or comfort wise....my office is cleaned, weekly, for $50-, much better than I could do ....I see 35-45 people a week at a sliding scale of $48-$60... Turiya Hill, L.Ac. Nevada City, Ca.----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Hi All I would just like to point out that laundering your own sheets and gowns may be illegal. This is a municipality issue that is covered by the city/county's health department. If you read health department regulations from San Diego, where I practice, not using a professional cleaning service is clearly illegal. I am not saying there aren't practitioners that do do their own laundry, and I have never heard of anyone getting caught, but they are technically performing an illegal act. But this does bring up another broader point. Like Christopher, I teach part of the Practice Management class locally, and most of my students are shocked to find out that they need to have a safety plan on file (within their office) and a safety permit that is compliant with the local department of health regulations. This includes such issues as having a written needle and other medical waste disposal plan, an escape plan in case of fire, required fire extinguishers, in addition to issues of communicable diseases including mandatory reporting and laundering of durables. Everyone should use this as a reminder to check with their county's health department for any issues related to their practice and make sure they are compliant. Technically, being out of compliance could result in anything from a get in compliance ticket to heavy fines to temporary to permanent shut down of your practice. In reality, I have never heard of these happening to an acupuncturist, but they frequently occur in regard to other medical professionals… Hope this helps a little… ********************************************************************* ***** Dr. Greg Sperber, BMBS, DAOM, MBA, L.Ac. California Licensed Acupuncturist Diplomate in Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM) Greg ********************************************************************* ****** Chinese Medicine , " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler wrote: > > I used to use paper sheets until they became more expensive than cloth. I > have been using the same 30 $3 Ikea sheets for close to a year now and they > are still doing fine. My policy is that if they get blood on them get > retired into rags. So far I have only had this happen once. I launder the > sheets about once a week at home. With a good sized washer it is only a > single load and so isn't such a big deal. I fold them myself which is the > most time consuming part of the process. > > I use paper protectors for the head and leg pillows which are changed for > each patient, but these are very cheap and MUCH easier than changing the > pillow cases after each patient. > > I don't use gowns but use large white towels instead that the patient can > drape over themselves. Much cheaper, easier and more versatile. > > Nightly cleaning and trash removal is included in my rent. > > If we look at your situation Turiya, say you see 40 patients a week who pay > on average $55. That is about $9000 a month gross. Spending $200 for > laundry and $50 for cleaning is less than 3% of your gross. This isn't too > bad. I pay about that much to process credit cards. If you are busy > enough, your time is probably better spent seeing patients than doing > laundry so paying for laundry service and cleaning makes sense. > > If you aren't that busy it shifts the equation. For every practitioner > these more mundane tasks can eat up a lot of time and Qi. The question is > when are you busy enough that you are eating into time you could be seeing > patients? > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > Suite 215 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Chris: Where do you get the paper protectors for the head and leg pillows? I agree with you on time vs. monetary charges. I look at everything this way (home expenses too.) Sometimes though other people just can't do it as well as you. Then there is another tradeoff. Also I used to get the hebbe jebbes about washing sheets with possible Heb B hanging on them in the family laundry machine. They don't get to the washing machine right away - hang in hamper. So I am hoping the virus disappears (if it's even there.) I would have my sheets laundered and I only see 20 a week now and will be expanding that this year. I just want them to do it right. (not much fragrance if at all, use clean hands all the time and don't turn my pastel yellows to red.) Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler > I used to use paper sheets until they became more expensive than cloth. I > have been using the same 30 $3 Ikea sheets for close to a year now and they > are still doing fine. My policy is that if they get blood on them get > retired into rags. So far I have only had this happen once. I launder the > sheets about once a week at home. With a good sized washer it is only a > single load and so isn't such a big deal. I fold them myself which is the > most time consuming part of the process. > > I use paper protectors for the head and leg pillows which are changed for > each patient, but these are very cheap and MUCH easier than changing the > pillow cases after each patient. > > I don't use gowns but use large white towels instead that the patient can > drape over themselves. Much cheaper, easier and more versatile. > > Nightly cleaning and trash removal is included in my rent. > > If we look at your situation Turiya, say you see 40 patients a week who pay > on average $55. That is about $9000 a month gross. Spending $200 for > laundry and $50 for cleaning is less than 3% of your gross. This isn't too > bad. I pay about that much to process credit cards. If you are busy > enough, your time is probably better spent seeing patients than doing > laundry so paying for laundry service and cleaning makes sense. > > If you aren't that busy it shifts the equation. For every practitioner > these more mundane tasks can eat up a lot of time and Qi. The question is > when are you busy enough that you are eating into time you could be seeing > patients? > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > Suite 215 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Turiya > Hill > Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:18 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Keeping Overhead Low > > > > For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and > gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for sheets and > gowns...since i am a male practitioner with many female patients and I tend > to treat Back Shu points quite regulalrly....it's a big expense but i don't > see paper sheeting or gowns as an alternative, either ecologically or > comfort wise....my office is cleaned, weekly, for $50-, much better than I > could do ....I see 35-45 people a week at a sliding scale of $48-$60... > > Turiya Hill, L.Ac. > Nevada City, Ca.----- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 My two Euro, It might not be legal in the states, but I have my patients bring their own sheets. Also my treatment bed/pillows/headrest is of good quality which is really comfy even without sheets and which can be cleaned with an perfume-free alcohol based cleaning solution in case a patient forgets her/his sheets - extremely cheap, easy and safe; and I never have anyone complain about not being provided with sheets. But of course this is standard in Denmark.... maybe it wouldn't work out in the states?! My approach is very similar to Mr. Vedeler's and I am breaking even at about 16 treatments pr. month. This includes everything from rent, over needles, insurance, to advertising (google adwords and phonebook listings only). I have one treatment room, have been in practice for a little less than two years and see about 100 patients per month. I have teamed up with three MDs, one psychotherapist, one physio therapist, one chiropractor/osteopath and one massage therapist with whom I exchange referrals - works really well. Advertizing " specialization " in psycho-emotional problems, chronic diseases (any), gynechological problems, health preservation and personal development (the type of patients I see most of the time are in the internal medicine category) helps too..... Best regards Thomas Sorensen Acupuncturist, PA, RAB Denmark anne.crowley skrev: > > Chris: > > Where do you get the paper protectors for the head and leg pillows? > > I agree with you on time vs. monetary charges. I look at everything > this way (home expenses too.) Sometimes though other people just can't > do it as well as you. Then there is another tradeoff. Also I used to > get the hebbe jebbes about washing sheets with possible Heb B hanging > on them in the family laundry machine. They don't get to the washing > machine right away - hang in hamper. So I am hoping the virus > disappears (if it's even there.) I would have my sheets laundered and > I only see 20 a week now and will be expanding that this year. I just > want them to do it right. (not much fragrance if at all, use clean > hands all the time and don't turn my pastel yellows to red.) > > Anne > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler > <ckvedeler%40access4less.net>> > > I used to use paper sheets until they became more expensive than > cloth. I > > have been using the same 30 $3 Ikea sheets for close to a year now > and they > > are still doing fine. My policy is that if they get blood on them get > > retired into rags. So far I have only had this happen once. I > launder the > > sheets about once a week at home. With a good sized washer it is only a > > single load and so isn't such a big deal. I fold them myself which > is the > > most time consuming part of the process. > > > > I use paper protectors for the head and leg pillows which are > changed for > > each patient, but these are very cheap and MUCH easier than changing the > > pillow cases after each patient. > > > > I don't use gowns but use large white towels instead that the > patient can > > drape over themselves. Much cheaper, easier and more versatile. > > > > Nightly cleaning and trash removal is included in my rent. > > > > If we look at your situation Turiya, say you see 40 patients a week > who pay > > on average $55. That is about $9000 a month gross. Spending $200 for > > laundry and $50 for cleaning is less than 3% of your gross. This > isn't too > > bad. I pay about that much to process credit cards. If you are busy > > enough, your time is probably better spent seeing patients than doing > > laundry so paying for laundry service and cleaning makes sense. > > > > If you aren't that busy it shifts the equation. For every practitioner > > these more mundane tasks can eat up a lot of time and Qi. The > question is > > when are you busy enough that you are eating into time you could be > seeing > > patients? > > > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > > Oasis Acupuncture > > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com> > > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > > Suite 215 > > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > [Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40>] On Behalf Of > Turiya > > Hill > > Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:18 AM > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > Re: Keeping Overhead Low > > > > > > > > For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and > > gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for sheets and > > gowns...since i am a male practitioner with many female patients and > I tend > > to treat Back Shu points quite regulalrly....it's a big expense but > i don't > > see paper sheeting or gowns as an alternative, either ecologically or > > comfort wise....my office is cleaned, weekly, for $50-, much better > than I > > could do ....I see 35-45 people a week at a sliding scale of $48-$60... > > > > Turiya Hill, L.Ac. > > Nevada City, Ca.----- > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Keeping the overhead low is obviously not the path to success, but is a part of the equation to be sure! I find that the best way - at least it has worked for me - is to not try to make money to make ends meet, but to try to help people and make it worthwile for them to stay with you for regular health check-ups/ healt maintainance long after their original complaints have been taken care of. In my experience it is through, of course, good, speedy, lasting results, and good communication with patients, helping them grow as human beings, realizing their potential by taking charge of their lives, empowering them to take responsibility for themselves - all within the vast potential of CM! 25% of my patients decides to come in for monthly treatments to work on their constitution and their potential growth after their initial disease patterns have been dealt with. ....of course this will involve the practioner to be forever cultivating his/her own constitution expanding on his/her growth potential.... Best regards, Thomas Sorensen Acupuncturist, PA, RAB Denmark Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen skrev: > > My two Euro, > > It might not be legal in the states, but I have my patients bring their > own sheets. Also my treatment bed/pillows/headrest is of good quality > which is really comfy even without sheets and which can be cleaned with > an perfume-free alcohol based cleaning solution in case a patient > forgets her/his sheets - extremely cheap, easy and safe; and I never > have anyone complain about not being provided with sheets. But of course > this is standard in Denmark.... maybe it wouldn't work out in the states?! > > My approach is very similar to Mr. Vedeler's and I am breaking even at > about 16 treatments pr. month. This includes everything from rent, over > needles, insurance, to advertising (google adwords and phonebook > listings only). I have one treatment room, have been in practice for a > little less than two years and see about 100 patients per month. > > I have teamed up with three MDs, one psychotherapist, one physio > therapist, one chiropractor/osteopath and one massage therapist with > whom I exchange referrals - works really well. > > Advertizing " specialization " in psycho-emotional problems, chronic > diseases (any), gynechological problems, health preservation and > personal development (the type of patients I see most of the time are in > the internal medicine category) helps too..... > > Best regards > > Thomas Sorensen > Acupuncturist, PA, RAB > Denmark > > anne.crowley <anne.crowley%40comcast.net> skrev: > > > > Chris: > > > > Where do you get the paper protectors for the head and leg pillows? > > > > I agree with you on time vs. monetary charges. I look at everything > > this way (home expenses too.) Sometimes though other people just can't > > do it as well as you. Then there is another tradeoff. Also I used to > > get the hebbe jebbes about washing sheets with possible Heb B hanging > > on them in the family laundry machine. They don't get to the washing > > machine right away - hang in hamper. So I am hoping the virus > > disappears (if it's even there.) I would have my sheets laundered and > > I only see 20 a week now and will be expanding that this year. I just > > want them to do it right. (not much fragrance if at all, use clean > > hands all the time and don't turn my pastel yellows to red.) > > > > Anne > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler > <ckvedeler%40access4less.net> > > <ckvedeler%40access4less.net>> > > > I used to use paper sheets until they became more expensive than > > cloth. I > > > have been using the same 30 $3 Ikea sheets for close to a year now > > and they > > > are still doing fine. My policy is that if they get blood on them get > > > retired into rags. So far I have only had this happen once. I > > launder the > > > sheets about once a week at home. With a good sized washer it is > only a > > > single load and so isn't such a big deal. I fold them myself which > > is the > > > most time consuming part of the process. > > > > > > I use paper protectors for the head and leg pillows which are > > changed for > > > each patient, but these are very cheap and MUCH easier than > changing the > > > pillow cases after each patient. > > > > > > I don't use gowns but use large white towels instead that the > > patient can > > > drape over themselves. Much cheaper, easier and more versatile. > > > > > > Nightly cleaning and trash removal is included in my rent. > > > > > > If we look at your situation Turiya, say you see 40 patients a week > > who pay > > > on average $55. That is about $9000 a month gross. Spending $200 for > > > laundry and $50 for cleaning is less than 3% of your gross. This > > isn't too > > > bad. I pay about that much to process credit cards. If you are busy > > > enough, your time is probably better spent seeing patients than doing > > > laundry so paying for laundry service and cleaning makes sense. > > > > > > If you aren't that busy it shifts the equation. For every practitioner > > > these more mundane tasks can eat up a lot of time and Qi. The > > question is > > > when are you busy enough that you are eating into time you could be > > seeing > > > patients? > > > > > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > > > Oasis Acupuncture > > > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com> > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com>> > > > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > > > Suite 215 > > > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > [Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>] On Behalf Of > > Turiya > > > Hill > > > Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:18 AM > > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > Re: Keeping Overhead Low > > > > > > > > > > > > For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and > > > gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for > sheets and > > > gowns...since i am a male practitioner with many female patients and > > I tend > > > to treat Back Shu points quite regulalrly....it's a big expense but > > i don't > > > see paper sheeting or gowns as an alternative, either ecologically or > > > comfort wise....my office is cleaned, weekly, for $50-, much better > > than I > > > could do ....I see 35-45 people a week at a sliding scale of > $48-$60... > > > > > > Turiya Hill, L.Ac. > > > Nevada City, Ca.----- > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Tom: How long do your sessions run. You have only one room, so you treat one at a time? How many do you see in a day, week? How many days do you work. Thanks, Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen <> > My two Euro, > > It might not be legal in the states, but I have my patients bring their > own sheets. Also my treatment bed/pillows/headrest is of good quality > which is really comfy even without sheets and which can be cleaned with > an perfume-free alcohol based cleaning solution in case a patient > forgets her/his sheets - extremely cheap, easy and safe; and I never > have anyone complain about not being provided with sheets. But of course > this is standard in Denmark.... maybe it wouldn't work out in the states?! > > My approach is very similar to Mr. Vedeler's and I am breaking even at > about 16 treatments pr. month. This includes everything from rent, over > needles, insurance, to advertising (google adwords and phonebook > listings only). I have one treatment room, have been in practice for a > little less than two years and see about 100 patients per month. > > I have teamed up with three MDs, one psychotherapist, one physio > therapist, one chiropractor/osteopath and one massage therapist with > whom I exchange referrals - works really well. > > Advertizing " specialization " in psycho-emotional problems, chronic > diseases (any), gynechological problems, health preservation and > personal development (the type of patients I see most of the time are in > the internal medicine category) helps too..... > > Best regards > > Thomas Sorensen > Acupuncturist, PA, RAB > Denmark > > anne.crowley skrev: > > > > Chris: > > > > Where do you get the paper protectors for the head and leg pillows? > > > > I agree with you on time vs. monetary charges. I look at everything > > this way (home expenses too.) Sometimes though other people just can't > > do it as well as you. Then there is another tradeoff. Also I used to > > get the hebbe jebbes about washing sheets with possible Heb B hanging > > on them in the family laundry machine. They don't get to the washing > > machine right away - hang in hamper. So I am hoping the virus > > disappears (if it's even there.) I would have my sheets laundered and > > I only see 20 a week now and will be expanding that this year. I just > > want them to do it right. (not much fragrance if at all, use clean > > hands all the time and don't turn my pastel yellows to red.) > > > > Anne > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler > > <ckvedeler%40access4less.net>> > > > I used to use paper sheets until they became more expensive than > > cloth. I > > > have been using the same 30 $3 Ikea sheets for close to a year now > > and they > > > are still doing fine. My policy is that if they get blood on them get > > > retired into rags. So far I have only had this happen once. I > > launder the > > > sheets about once a week at home. With a good sized washer it is only a > > > single load and so isn't such a big deal. I fold them myself which > > is the > > > most time consuming part of the process. > > > > > > I use paper protectors for the head and leg pillows which are > > changed for > > > each patient, but these are very cheap and MUCH easier than changing the > > > pillow cases after each patient. > > > > > > I don't use gowns but use large white towels instead that the > > patient can > > > drape over themselves. Much cheaper, easier and more versatile. > > > > > > Nightly cleaning and trash removal is included in my rent. > > > > > > If we look at your situation Turiya, say you see 40 patients a week > > who pay > > > on average $55. That is about $9000 a month gross. Spending $200 for > > > laundry and $50 for cleaning is less than 3% of your gross. This > > isn't too > > > bad. I pay about that much to process credit cards. If you are busy > > > enough, your time is probably better spent seeing patients than doing > > > laundry so paying for laundry service and cleaning makes sense. > > > > > > If you aren't that busy it shifts the equation. For every practitioner > > > these more mundane tasks can eat up a lot of time and Qi. The > > question is > > > when are you busy enough that you are eating into time you could be > > seeing > > > patients? > > > > > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > > > Oasis Acupuncture > > > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com> > > > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > > > Suite 215 > > > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > [Chinese Medicine > > <Chinese Medicine%40>] On Behalf Of > > Turiya > > > Hill > > > Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:18 AM > > > Chinese Medicine > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > Re: Keeping Overhead Low > > > > > > > > > > > > For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and > > > gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for sheets and > > > gowns...since i am a male practitioner with many female patients and > > I tend > > > to treat Back Shu points quite regulalrly....it's a big expense but > > i don't > > > see paper sheeting or gowns as an alternative, either ecologically or > > > comfort wise....my office is cleaned, weekly, for $50-, much better > > than I > > > could do ....I see 35-45 people a week at a sliding scale of $48-$60... > > > > > > Turiya Hill, L.Ac. > > > Nevada City, Ca.----- > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 I agree with this approach Thomas. I also refer to other practitioners for specific issues e.g. rolfing, osteopath, hynotherapy. that they can do in additon to acupuncture. I have a lot of steady clients like you describe. I find that the most enjoyable part of my work. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen <> > Keeping the overhead low is obviously not the path to success, but is a > part of the equation to be sure! > > I find that the best way - at least it has worked for me - is to not try > to make money to make ends meet, but to try to help people and make it > worthwile for them to stay with you for regular health check-ups/ healt > maintainance long after their original complaints have been taken care > of. In my experience it is through, of course, good, speedy, lasting > results, and good communication with patients, helping them grow as > human beings, realizing their potential by taking charge of their lives, > empowering them to take responsibility for themselves - all within the > vast potential of CM! 25% of my patients decides to come in for monthly > treatments to work on their constitution and their potential growth > after their initial disease patterns have been dealt with. > > ...of course this will involve the practioner to be forever cultivating > his/her own constitution expanding on his/her growth potential.... > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > Acupuncturist, PA, RAB > Denmark > > > Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen skrev: > > > > My two Euro, > > > > It might not be legal in the states, but I have my patients bring their > > own sheets. Also my treatment bed/pillows/headrest is of good quality > > which is really comfy even without sheets and which can be cleaned with > > an perfume-free alcohol based cleaning solution in case a patient > > forgets her/his sheets - extremely cheap, easy and safe; and I never > > have anyone complain about not being provided with sheets. But of course > > this is standard in Denmark.... maybe it wouldn't work out in the states?! > > > > My approach is very similar to Mr. Vedeler's and I am breaking even at > > about 16 treatments pr. month. This includes everything from rent, over > > needles, insurance, to advertising (google adwords and phonebook > > listings only). I have one treatment room, have been in practice for a > > little less than two years and see about 100 patients per month. > > > > I have teamed up with three MDs, one psychotherapist, one physio > > therapist, one chiropractor/osteopath and one massage therapist with > > whom I exchange referrals - works really well. > > > > Advertizing " specialization " in psycho-emotional problems, chronic > > diseases (any), gynechological problems, health preservation and > > personal development (the type of patients I see most of the time are in > > the internal medicine category) helps too..... > > > > Best regards > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > Acupuncturist, PA, RAB > > Denmark > > > > anne.crowley <anne.crowley%40comcast.net> skrev: > > > > > > Chris: > > > > > > Where do you get the paper protectors for the head and leg pillows? > > > > > > I agree with you on time vs. monetary charges. I look at everything > > > this way (home expenses too.) Sometimes though other people just can't > > > do it as well as you. Then there is another tradeoff. Also I used to > > > get the hebbe jebbes about washing sheets with possible Heb B hanging > > > on them in the family laundry machine. They don't get to the washing > > > machine right away - hang in hamper. So I am hoping the virus > > > disappears (if it's even there.) I would have my sheets laundered and > > > I only see 20 a week now and will be expanding that this year. I just > > > want them to do it right. (not much fragrance if at all, use clean > > > hands all the time and don't turn my pastel yellows to red.) > > > > > > Anne > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > > " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler > > <ckvedeler%40access4less.net> > > > <ckvedeler%40access4less.net>> > > > > I used to use paper sheets until they became more expensive than > > > cloth. I > > > > have been using the same 30 $3 Ikea sheets for close to a year now > > > and they > > > > are still doing fine. My policy is that if they get blood on them get > > > > retired into rags. So far I have only had this happen once. I > > > launder the > > > > sheets about once a week at home. With a good sized washer it is > > only a > > > > single load and so isn't such a big deal. I fold them myself which > > > is the > > > > most time consuming part of the process. > > > > > > > > I use paper protectors for the head and leg pillows which are > > > changed for > > > > each patient, but these are very cheap and MUCH easier than > > changing the > > > > pillow cases after each patient. > > > > > > > > I don't use gowns but use large white towels instead that the > > > patient can > > > > drape over themselves. Much cheaper, easier and more versatile. > > > > > > > > Nightly cleaning and trash removal is included in my rent. > > > > > > > > If we look at your situation Turiya, say you see 40 patients a week > > > who pay > > > > on average $55. That is about $9000 a month gross. Spending $200 for > > > > laundry and $50 for cleaning is less than 3% of your gross. This > > > isn't too > > > > bad. I pay about that much to process credit cards. If you are busy > > > > enough, your time is probably better spent seeing patients than doing > > > > laundry so paying for laundry service and cleaning makes sense. > > > > > > > > If you aren't that busy it shifts the equation. For every practitioner > > > > these more mundane tasks can eat up a lot of time and Qi. The > > > question is > > > > when are you busy enough that you are eating into time you could be > > > seeing > > > > patients? > > > > > > > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > > > > Oasis Acupuncture > > > > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com> > > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com>> > > > > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > > > > Suite 215 > > > > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > > > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > [Chinese Medicine > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>] On Behalf Of > > > Turiya > > > > Hill > > > > Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:18 AM > > > > Chinese Medicine > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > Re: Keeping Overhead Low > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and > > > > gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for > > sheets and > > > > gowns...since i am a male practitioner with many female patients and > > > I tend > > > > to treat Back Shu points quite regulalrly....it's a big expense but > > > i don't > > > > see paper sheeting or gowns as an alternative, either ecologically or > > > > comfort wise....my office is cleaned, weekly, for $50-, much better > > > than I > > > > could do ....I see 35-45 people a week at a sliding scale of > > $48-$60... > > > > > > > > Turiya Hill, L.Ac. > > > > Nevada City, Ca.----- > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 " I have teamed up with three MDs, one psychotherapist, one physio therapist, one chiropractor/osteopath and one massage therapist with whom I exchange referrals - works really well. " Thanks Thomas! This is the best way to build your practice. When I started teaming up with other health care practitioners from MD's to Naturopaths, massage therapists to even other acupuncturists my practice started doing much better. I refer to them and they refer to me. The patient wins by getting the best possible care and the practitioners win by treating what they do best. I believe that once you are in practice for a few years, a healthy practice will be at least 50% referral based. Networking with others is the best and healthiest way to build one's practice IMO. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 9832 N. Hayden Rd. Suite 215 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 There is a downside to this approach. In the past I've worked with what in Colorado we called " rainbow clinics " , where there was an M.D. who would do the referrals and sign off on insurance papers for the other practitioners (chiropractor, acupuncturist, psychologist, rolfer, etc.). My experience is that patients became confused by the different modalities and often conflicting advice given by different practitioners, and that practitioners were often stymied by being unable to speak their minds and give their opinions on what they considered to be appropriate therapeutics as opposed to overkill (too many modalities at the same time). It also, in my opinion, makes Chinese medicine look like just another technique. I think that any multi-disciplinary clinic needs an overall focus, whether biomedical, Chinese, or chiropractic, and a leader(s) who establishes the vision of the clinic. For example, there is a longevity clinic in Denver that has several practitioners who work with an M.D. with a focus on preventative medicine and longevity, he has even written a book on the subject. Then other practitioners can serve the overall needs of the clinic. If I were to do such a clinic again, I would insist on it being based on Chinese medical care principles, and that any other modalities would have to conform to those principles. Otherwise there is the potential for therapeutic chaos. On Jan 19, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. wrote: > " I have teamed up with three MDs, one psychotherapist, one physio > therapist, one chiropractor/osteopath and one massage therapist with > whom I exchange referrals - works really well. " > > Thanks Thomas! This is the best way to build your practice. When I > started teaming up with other health care practitioners from MD's to > Naturopaths, massage therapists to even other acupuncturists my > practice > started doing much better. I refer to them and they refer to me. The > patient wins by getting the best possible care and the > practitioners win > by treating what they do best. > > I believe that once you are in practice for a few years, a healthy > practice will be at least 50% referral based. > > Networking with others is the best and healthiest way to build one's > practice IMO. > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > Suite 215 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Hi Anne, I get them here: http://www.barringtonequipment.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=2287 <http://www.barringtonequipment.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=2287 & DEPARTME NT_ID=138> & DEPARTMENT_ID=138 I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks that way about cost vs. benefit. All my business background is hard to shake. I nice shot of bleach will kill anything on my sheets. My sheets don't last as long, but I get them for $3 each anyway. I'd rather not have to worry about it. I'm getting better at letting go of trying to control every aspect of my practice. I'm finding it much more fun and my practice is doing better when I let go of a lot of the mundane stuff. Other than my central vision, I don't think there is much I can do better than others can do for my practice. My long term goal is to expand and invite several L.Ac.'s, Reiki practitioners and massage therapists in so we can all work together for the benefit of the patients just like most MD's do. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 9832 N. Hayden Rd. Suite 215 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of anne.crowley Friday, January 19, 2007 6:05 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Keeping Overhead Low Chris: Where do you get the paper protectors for the head and leg pillows? I agree with you on time vs. monetary charges. I look at everything this way (home expenses too.) Sometimes though other people just can't do it as well as you. Then there is another tradeoff. Also I used to get the hebbe jebbes about washing sheets with possible Heb B hanging on them in the family laundry machine. They don't get to the washing machine right away - hang in hamper. So I am hoping the virus disappears (if it's even there.) I would have my sheets laundered and I only see 20 a week now and will be expanding that this year. I just want them to do it right. (not much fragrance if at all, use clean hands all the time and don't turn my pastel yellows to red.) Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler@access4le <ckvedeler%40access4less.net> ss.net> > I used to use paper sheets until they became more expensive than cloth. I > have been using the same 30 $3 Ikea sheets for close to a year now and they > are still doing fine. My policy is that if they get blood on them get > retired into rags. So far I have only had this happen once. I launder the > sheets about once a week at home. With a good sized washer it is only a > single load and so isn't such a big deal. I fold them myself which is the > most time consuming part of the process. > > I use paper protectors for the head and leg pillows which are changed for > each patient, but these are very cheap and MUCH easier than changing the > pillow cases after each patient. > > I don't use gowns but use large white towels instead that the patient can > drape over themselves. Much cheaper, easier and more versatile. > > Nightly cleaning and trash removal is included in my rent. > > If we look at your situation Turiya, say you see 40 patients a week who pay > on average $55. That is about $9000 a month gross. Spending $200 for > laundry and $50 for cleaning is less than 3% of your gross. This isn't too > bad. I pay about that much to process credit cards. If you are busy > enough, your time is probably better spent seeing patients than doing > laundry so paying for laundry service and cleaning makes sense. > > If you aren't that busy it shifts the equation. For every practitioner > these more mundane tasks can eat up a lot of time and Qi. The question is > when are you busy enough that you are eating into time you could be seeing > patients? > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacu <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com> puncture.com > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > Suite 215 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine > [Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of Turiya > Hill > Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:18 AM > Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine > Re: Keeping Overhead Low > > > > For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and > gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for sheets and > gowns...since i am a male practitioner with many female patients and I tend > to treat Back Shu points quite regulalrly....it's a big expense but i don't > see paper sheeting or gowns as an alternative, either ecologically or > comfort wise....my office is cleaned, weekly, for $50-, much better than I > could do ....I see 35-45 people a week at a sliding scale of $48-$60... > > Turiya Hill, L.Ac. > Nevada City, Ca.----- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Ms. Crowley, I only have one treatment room, so, yes, I only treat one patient at a time... I think it is time to expand soon though.. First visits are 60-90 minutes and follow-ups are 20-60 minutes depending on how much time is needed - I have patients who needs to talk a lot, to be heard, so I take the time if needed. The length of treatments vary a lot since I treat very actively constantly palpating the abdomen as well as distal points monitoring the pulse at wrist as well as on other locations/De Qi/Qi Dao observing the pre- and post as the NeiJing recommends - frequently changing points for treatment which produces at least two significant results: The patient often has a need to be touched - not sexually or anything like that, but the " therapeutic " touch in most cases produce an interesting effect a type of relaxation that promotes healing - patients really feel cared for! And of course there's the active pulse reading that makes sure that Qi is guided most effeciently at any given time producing again rather significant results and keeping me alert and on my toes... I am at the clinic monday through friday from 7 am to app 5 pm everyday seeing about 20-30 patients during one week. When I am not treating patients I am taking care of book keeping, returning phone calls, talking to my lovely wife and children on the internet phone and studying. If it wasn't because I have a wonderful family I would probably live in the clinic ;p After my family this is what I love the most.... Best regards, Thomas Sorensen Acupuncturist, PA, RAB Denmark anne.crowley skrev: > Tom: > > How long do your sessions run. You have only one room, so you treat one at a time? How many do you see in a day, week? How many days do you work. > > Thanks, > > Anne > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen <> > >> My two Euro, >> >> It might not be legal in the states, but I have my patients bring their >> own sheets. Also my treatment bed/pillows/headrest is of good quality >> which is really comfy even without sheets and which can be cleaned with >> an perfume-free alcohol based cleaning solution in case a patient >> forgets her/his sheets - extremely cheap, easy and safe; and I never >> have anyone complain about not being provided with sheets. But of course >> this is standard in Denmark.... maybe it wouldn't work out in the states?! >> >> My approach is very similar to Mr. Vedeler's and I am breaking even at >> about 16 treatments pr. month. This includes everything from rent, over >> needles, insurance, to advertising (google adwords and phonebook >> listings only). I have one treatment room, have been in practice for a >> little less than two years and see about 100 patients per month. >> >> I have teamed up with three MDs, one psychotherapist, one physio >> therapist, one chiropractor/osteopath and one massage therapist with >> whom I exchange referrals - works really well. >> >> Advertizing " specialization " in psycho-emotional problems, chronic >> diseases (any), gynechological problems, health preservation and >> personal development (the type of patients I see most of the time are in >> the internal medicine category) helps too..... >> >> Best regards >> >> Thomas Sorensen >> Acupuncturist, PA, RAB >> Denmark >> >> anne.crowley skrev: >> >>> Chris: >>> >>> Where do you get the paper protectors for the head and leg pillows? >>> >>> I agree with you on time vs. monetary charges. I look at everything >>> this way (home expenses too.) Sometimes though other people just can't >>> do it as well as you. Then there is another tradeoff. Also I used to >>> get the hebbe jebbes about washing sheets with possible Heb B hanging >>> on them in the family laundry machine. They don't get to the washing >>> machine right away - hang in hamper. So I am hoping the virus >>> disappears (if it's even there.) I would have my sheets laundered and >>> I only see 20 a week now and will be expanding that this year. I just >>> want them to do it right. (not much fragrance if at all, use clean >>> hands all the time and don't turn my pastel yellows to red.) >>> >>> Anne >>> -------------- Original message ---------------------- >>> " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler >>> <ckvedeler%40access4less.net>> >>> >>>> I used to use paper sheets until they became more expensive than >>>> >>> cloth. I >>> >>>> have been using the same 30 $3 Ikea sheets for close to a year now >>>> >>> and they >>> >>>> are still doing fine. My policy is that if they get blood on them get >>>> retired into rags. So far I have only had this happen once. I >>>> >>> launder the >>> >>>> sheets about once a week at home. With a good sized washer it is only a >>>> single load and so isn't such a big deal. I fold them myself which >>>> >>> is the >>> >>>> most time consuming part of the process. >>>> >>>> I use paper protectors for the head and leg pillows which are >>>> >>> changed for >>> >>>> each patient, but these are very cheap and MUCH easier than changing the >>>> pillow cases after each patient. >>>> >>>> I don't use gowns but use large white towels instead that the >>>> >>> patient can >>> >>>> drape over themselves. Much cheaper, easier and more versatile. >>>> >>>> Nightly cleaning and trash removal is included in my rent. >>>> >>>> If we look at your situation Turiya, say you see 40 patients a week >>>> >>> who pay >>> >>>> on average $55. That is about $9000 a month gross. Spending $200 for >>>> laundry and $50 for cleaning is less than 3% of your gross. This >>>> >>> isn't too >>> >>>> bad. I pay about that much to process credit cards. If you are busy >>>> enough, your time is probably better spent seeing patients than doing >>>> laundry so paying for laundry service and cleaning makes sense. >>>> >>>> If you aren't that busy it shifts the equation. For every practitioner >>>> these more mundane tasks can eat up a lot of time and Qi. The >>>> >>> question is >>> >>>> when are you busy enough that you are eating into time you could be >>>> >>> seeing >>> >>>> patients? >>>> >>>> Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. >>>> Oasis Acupuncture >>>> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com> >>>> 9832 N. Hayden Rd. >>>> Suite 215 >>>> Scottsdale, AZ 85258 >>>> Phone: (480) 991-3650 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Chinese Medicine >>>> >>> <Chinese Medicine%40> >>> >>>> [Chinese Medicine >>>> >>> <Chinese Medicine%40>] On Behalf Of >>> Turiya >>> >>>> Hill >>>> Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:18 AM >>>> Chinese Medicine >>>> >>> <Chinese Medicine%40> >>> >>>> Re: Keeping Overhead Low >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and >>>> gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for sheets and >>>> gowns...since i am a male practitioner with many female patients and >>>> >>> I tend >>> >>>> to treat Back Shu points quite regulalrly....it's a big expense but >>>> >>> i don't >>> >>>> see paper sheeting or gowns as an alternative, either ecologically or >>>> comfort wise....my office is cleaned, weekly, for $50-, much better >>>> >>> than I >>> >>>> could do ....I see 35-45 people a week at a sliding scale of $48-$60... >>>> >>>> Turiya Hill, L.Ac. >>>> Nevada City, Ca.----- >>>> >>>> >>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Mr. Rosenberg, That is true. However it is our responsibility as exponents of CM to let the people we work with know exactly what we stand for as well as we do with our patients. Not just to team up with other therapists or MDs just to get referrals. We have to, as far as possible, choose the people we work with as carefully as we listen to the pulses in a patient. I have taken initiative to invite the people with whom I " exchange referrals " with to meet on a regular basis to discuss our views on health care and to analyze our different strengths and weaknesses of our different, but similar, approaches in order to reinstate the patient as the single most important thing in the modern health care system. We are all benefitting from these meetings - especially the patients. And I definitely sense that there's much respect for CM and a genuine desire to understand it better. The MDs I work with have a clear sense of what their role in health care is: to help patients survive (ie provide diabetics with insulin etc) and recognize CM as a way of truly helping people to take responsibility for their own health as well as providing solutions for ie the chronicly ill. Also many of the patients I refer out does not stop receiving acupuncture treatments because they, maybe in other ways than they expected, are feeling benefits. Best regards, Thomas Sorensen Acupuncturist, PA, RAB Denmark skrev: > > There is a downside to this approach. In the past I've worked with > what in Colorado we called " rainbow clinics " , where there was an M.D. > who would do the referrals and sign off on insurance papers for the > other practitioners (chiropractor, acupuncturist, psychologist, > rolfer, etc.). My experience is that patients became confused by the > different modalities and often conflicting advice given by different > practitioners, and that practitioners were often stymied by being > unable to speak their minds and give their opinions on what they > considered to be appropriate therapeutics as opposed to overkill (too > many modalities at the same time). > > It also, in my opinion, makes Chinese medicine look like just another > technique. > > I think that any multi-disciplinary clinic needs an overall focus, > whether biomedical, Chinese, or chiropractic, and a leader(s) who > establishes the vision of the clinic. For example, there is a > longevity clinic in Denver that has several practitioners who work > with an M.D. with a focus on preventative medicine and longevity, he > has even written a book on the subject. Then other practitioners can > serve the overall needs of the clinic. If I were to do such a clinic > again, I would insist on it being based on Chinese medical care > principles, and that any other modalities would have to conform to > those principles. Otherwise there is the potential for therapeutic > chaos. > > > On Jan 19, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. wrote: > > > " I have teamed up with three MDs, one psychotherapist, one physio > > therapist, one chiropractor/osteopath and one massage therapist with > > whom I exchange referrals - works really well. " > > > > Thanks Thomas! This is the best way to build your practice. When I > > started teaming up with other health care practitioners from MD's to > > Naturopaths, massage therapists to even other acupuncturists my > > practice > > started doing much better. I refer to them and they refer to me. The > > patient wins by getting the best possible care and the > > practitioners win > > by treating what they do best. > > > > I believe that once you are in practice for a few years, a healthy > > practice will be at least 50% referral based. > > > > Networking with others is the best and healthiest way to build one's > > practice IMO. > > > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > > Oasis Acupuncture > > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/ > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/>> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com> > > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > > Suite 215 > > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Mr. Vedeler, Funny how that is! I have experienced that myself - the more I concern myself with securing an income the more difficult it becomes somehow NB: A good friend of mine, a master gunsmith from Downey, CA, close to L.A., Patrick Mathews once told me that: " You don't make money - you make customers! " That stuck with me - not to compare patients with customers though - I think that would a huge mistake and as such I don't offer discounted treatments. I do offer people who request it sliding scale like arrangements. Best regards, Thomas Sorensen Acupuncturist, PA, RAB Denmark Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. skrev: > > If the only focus is to keep overhead low, then surely you will not > succeed. You can not spend any money at all on overhead and just go out > of business. My practice is an extension of myself. I need to invest > in the things that make it healthy and strong and not in the things that > bring it down or drain it. > > Thomas I agree with what you said about not trying to make money. I try > to focus on being of service, being a stand for my patients health, > being a stable and strong shoulder to cry on when needed. When I focus > only on the money, my business tends to decline. When I focus on being > of service my business tends to flourish. People can feel your > intention when you treat. I believe that who we are as practitioners > (our own personal development) is at least as important as what we know > and what our skill level is with TCM. > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/ <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/>> > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com> > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > Suite 215 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > [Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40>] On Behalf Of > Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen > Friday, January 19, 2007 7:13 AM > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > Re: Keeping Overhead Low > > Keeping the overhead low is obviously not the path to success, but is a > part of the equation to be sure! > > I find that the best way - at least it has worked for me - is to not try > > to make money to make ends meet, but to try to help people and make it > worthwile for them to stay with you for regular health check-ups/ healt > maintainance long after their original complaints have been taken care > of. In my experience it is through, of course, good, speedy, lasting > results, and good communication with patients, helping them grow as > human beings, realizing their potential by taking charge of their lives, > > empowering them to take responsibility for themselves - all within the > vast potential of CM! 25% of my patients decides to come in for monthly > treatments to work on their constitution and their potential growth > after their initial disease patterns have been dealt with. > > ...of course this will involve the practioner to be forever cultivating > his/her own constitution expanding on his/her growth potential.... > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > Acupuncturist, PA, RAB > Denmark > > Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen skrev: > > > > My two Euro, > > > > It might not be legal in the states, but I have my patients bring > their > > own sheets. Also my treatment bed/pillows/headrest is of good quality > > which is really comfy even without sheets and which can be cleaned > with > > an perfume-free alcohol based cleaning solution in case a patient > > forgets her/his sheets - extremely cheap, easy and safe; and I never > > have anyone complain about not being provided with sheets. But of > course > > this is standard in Denmark.... maybe it wouldn't work out in the > states?! > > > > My approach is very similar to Mr. Vedeler's and I am breaking even at > > about 16 treatments pr. month. This includes everything from rent, > over > > needles, insurance, to advertising (google adwords and phonebook > > listings only). I have one treatment room, have been in practice for a > > little less than two years and see about 100 patients per month. > > > > I have teamed up with three MDs, one psychotherapist, one physio > > therapist, one chiropractor/osteopath and one massage therapist with > > whom I exchange referrals - works really well. > > > > Advertizing " specialization " in psycho-emotional problems, chronic > > diseases (any), gynechological problems, health preservation and > > personal development (the type of patients I see most of the time are > in > > the internal medicine category) helps too..... > > > > Best regards > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > Acupuncturist, PA, RAB > > Denmark > > > > anne.crowley@ <anne.crowley%40comcast.net> comcast.net > <anne.crowley%40comcast.net> skrev: > > > > > > Chris: > > > > > > Where do you get the paper protectors for the head and leg pillows? > > > > > > I agree with you on time vs. monetary charges. I look at everything > > > this way (home expenses too.) Sometimes though other people just > can't > > > do it as well as you. Then there is another tradeoff. Also I used to > > > get the hebbe jebbes about washing sheets with possible Heb B > hanging > > > on them in the family laundry machine. They don't get to the washing > > > machine right away - hang in hamper. So I am hoping the virus > > > disappears (if it's even there.) I would have my sheets laundered > and > > > I only see 20 a week now and will be expanding that this year. I > just > > > want them to do it right. (not much fragrance if at all, use clean > > > hands all the time and don't turn my pastel yellows to red.) > > > > > > Anne > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > > " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler@access4le > <ckvedeler%40access4less.net> ss.net > > <ckvedeler%40access4less.net> > > > <ckvedeler%40access4less.net>> > > > > I used to use paper sheets until they became more expensive than > > > cloth. I > > > > have been using the same 30 $3 Ikea sheets for close to a year now > > > and they > > > > are still doing fine. My policy is that if they get blood on them > get > > > > retired into rags. So far I have only had this happen once. I > > > launder the > > > > sheets about once a week at home. With a good sized washer it is > > only a > > > > single load and so isn't such a big deal. I fold them myself which > > > is the > > > > most time consuming part of the process. > > > > > > > > I use paper protectors for the head and leg pillows which are > > > changed for > > > > each patient, but these are very cheap and MUCH easier than > > changing the > > > > pillow cases after each patient. > > > > > > > > I don't use gowns but use large white towels instead that the > > > patient can > > > > drape over themselves. Much cheaper, easier and more versatile. > > > > > > > > Nightly cleaning and trash removal is included in my rent. > > > > > > > > If we look at your situation Turiya, say you see 40 patients a > week > > > who pay > > > > on average $55. That is about $9000 a month gross. Spending $200 > for > > > > laundry and $50 for cleaning is less than 3% of your gross. This > > > isn't too > > > > bad. I pay about that much to process credit cards. If you are > busy > > > > enough, your time is probably better spent seeing patients than > doing > > > > laundry so paying for laundry service and cleaning makes sense. > > > > > > > > If you aren't that busy it shifts the equation. For every > practitioner > > > > these more mundane tasks can eat up a lot of time and Qi. The > > > question is > > > > when are you busy enough that you are eating into time you could > be > > > seeing > > > > patients? > > > > > > > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > > > > Oasis Acupuncture > > > > http://www.oasisacu <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com>> puncture.com > <http://www.oasisacu <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com>> puncture.com> > > <http://www.oasisacu <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com>> puncture.com > <http://www.oasisacu <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com>> puncture.com>> > > > > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > > > > Suite 215 > > > > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > > > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ > <Chinese Medicine%40> > Chinese_Medicine > <Chinese_Medicine%40> > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > [Traditional_ > <Chinese Medicine%40> > Chinese_Medicine > <Chinese_Medicine%40> > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>] On Behalf > Of > > > Turiya > > > > Hill > > > > Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:18 AM > > > > Traditional_ > <Chinese Medicine%40> > Chinese_Medicine > <Chinese_Medicine%40> > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > Re: Keeping Overhead Low > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For anyone listening to this thread....do you folks use sheets and > > > > gowns.?....my monthly launrdry bill is close to $150-$200 for > > sheets and > > > > gowns...since i am a male practitioner with many female patients > and > > > I tend > > > > to treat Back Shu points quite regulalrly....it's a big expense > but > > > i don't > > > > see paper sheeting or gowns as an alternative, either ecologically > or > > > > comfort wise....my office is cleaned, weekly, for $50-, much > better > > > than I > > > > could do ....I see 35-45 people a week at a sliding scale of > > $48-$60... > > > > > > > > Turiya Hill, L.Ac. > > > > Nevada City, Ca.----- > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Thomas, All your points are well taken, and it sounds like you work in an ideal manner for an integrative clinic. However, too many multi- disciplinary clinics here in San Diego are just together because of the convenience of rent and referrals, with little or no consideration as to coordinating the different modalities. Potential chaos, any way you look at it. Yes, there are exceptions in the U.S. as well, but it is an important issue to point out. On Jan 19, 2007, at 1:00 PM, Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > Mr. Rosenberg, > > That is true. However it is our responsibility as exponents of CM > to let > the people we work with know exactly what we stand for as well as > we do > with our patients. Not just to team up with other therapists or MDs > just > to get referrals. We have to, as far as possible, choose the people we > work with as carefully as we listen to the pulses in a patient. > > I have taken initiative to invite the people with whom I " exchange > referrals " with to meet on a regular basis to discuss our views on > health care and to analyze our different strengths and weaknesses > of our > different, but similar, approaches in order to reinstate the > patient as > the single most important thing in the modern health care system. > We are > all benefitting from these meetings - especially the patients. And I > definitely sense that there's much respect for CM and a genuine desire > to understand it better. The MDs I work with have a clear sense of > what > their role in health care is: to help patients survive (ie provide > diabetics with insulin etc) and recognize CM as a way of truly helping > people to take responsibility for their own health as well as > providing > solutions for ie the chronicly ill. > > Also many of the patients I refer out does not stop receiving > acupuncture treatments because they, maybe in other ways than they > expected, are feeling benefits. > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > Acupuncturist, PA, RAB > Denmark > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 Mr. Rosenberg, We are not in an integrative clinic as such - sorry if that was the idea I gave you. We are all working independantly out of our own private practices and only share the vision of a different type of health care system more geared towards the individual patient and not towards the health industry. This is our incentive for referring to each other. I do believe that you are right when you write that the socalled integrative clinics mosten times spell chaos and you stand a big risk loosing your integrity if you are not extremely careful! I would hate myself if I one day found myself compromising CM.... Best regards, Thomas Sorensen Acupuncturist, PA, RAB Denmark skrev: > > Thomas, > All your points are well taken, and it sounds like you work in an > ideal manner for an integrative clinic. However, too many multi- > disciplinary clinics here in San Diego are just together because of > the convenience of rent and referrals, with little or no > consideration as to coordinating the different modalities. Potential > chaos, any way you look at it. Yes, there are exceptions in the U.S. > as well, but it is an important issue to point out. > > > On Jan 19, 2007, at 1:00 PM, Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > > > Mr. Rosenberg, > > > > That is true. However it is our responsibility as exponents of CM > > to let > > the people we work with know exactly what we stand for as well as > > we do > > with our patients. Not just to team up with other therapists or MDs > > just > > to get referrals. We have to, as far as possible, choose the people we > > work with as carefully as we listen to the pulses in a patient. > > > > I have taken initiative to invite the people with whom I " exchange > > referrals " with to meet on a regular basis to discuss our views on > > health care and to analyze our different strengths and weaknesses > > of our > > different, but similar, approaches in order to reinstate the > > patient as > > the single most important thing in the modern health care system. > > We are > > all benefitting from these meetings - especially the patients. And I > > definitely sense that there's much respect for CM and a genuine desire > > to understand it better. The MDs I work with have a clear sense of > > what > > their role in health care is: to help patients survive (ie provide > > diabetics with insulin etc) and recognize CM as a way of truly helping > > people to take responsibility for their own health as well as > > providing > > solutions for ie the chronicly ill. > > > > Also many of the patients I refer out does not stop receiving > > acupuncture treatments because they, maybe in other ways than they > > expected, are feeling benefits. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > Acupuncturist, PA, RAB > > Denmark > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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