Why are Channels Entered listed for herbs?

[Guest guest]

In acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, it is written that the channels and

zang/fu are connected by root-branch; is this necessarily so for herbal

treatment?

In other words, why did the ancients say that Bai shao goes to the LV/ SP

channels and not the LV/ SP zang/fu? (am I correct here?)

Are we working with an instance of an acupuncturisation of herbalism?

Or is this just my 21st century mind that thinks that most metabolic

functions should occur in the organic tissues instead of the channels?

 

--

'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of

a problem.'

 

Jiddu Krishnamurti

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

<johnkokko wrote:

>

> In acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, it is written that the

channels and

> zang/fu are connected by root-branch; is this necessarily so for herbal

> treatment?

> In other words, why did the ancients say that Bai shao goes to the

LV/ SP

> channels and not the LV/ SP zang/fu? (am I correct here?)

> Are we working with an instance of an acupuncturisation of herbalism?

> Or is this just my 21st century mind that thinks that most metabolic

> functions should occur in the organic tissues instead of the channels?

>

> --

> 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

understanding of

> a problem.'

>

> Jiddu Krishnamurti

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I see citing Jing Luo is more complete as each Jing Luo innervates its

corresponding organ.

 

Mike L.

 

henry_buchtel <henry.buchtel wrote:

Chinese Medicine , " "

<johnkokko wrote:

>

> In acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, it is written that the

channels and

> zang/fu are connected by root-branch; is this necessarily so for herbal

> treatment?

> In other words, why did the ancients say that Bai shao goes to the

LV/ SP

> channels and not the LV/ SP zang/fu? (am I correct here?)

> Are we working with an instance of an acupuncturisation of herbalism?

> Or is this just my 21st century mind that thinks that most metabolic

> functions should occur in the organic tissues instead of the channels?

>

> --

> 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

understanding of

> a problem.'

>

> Jiddu Krishnamurti

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Could it be as simple as needing to enter the Channel before it can

enter the Organ? I'm not sure of the direct translation, but the

english term that is used is 'Entering Channel', which seems to imply

that it is the entry way to the body.

If you want to clear a surface condition, TaiYang Syndrome, you need to

clear the TaiYang channel, not the organs. Gui Zhi Tang, clears the

channel. An as a matter of speculation, it seems that for the most

part, Shang Han Lun addresses channel conditions before Organ

conditions.

Not sure if this is all correct, but one possible interpretation,

-David L.

On Feb 27, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Mike Liaw wrote:

 

> I see citing Jing Luo is more complete as each Jing Luo innervates its

> corresponding organ.

>

> Mike L.

>

> henry_buchtel <henry.buchtel wrote:

> Chinese Medicine , " "

> <johnkokko wrote:

> >

> > In acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, it is written that the

> channels and

> > zang/fu are connected by root-branch; is this necessarily so for

> herbal

> > treatment?

> > In other words, why did the ancients say that Bai shao goes to the

> LV/ SP

> > channels and not the LV/ SP zang/fu? (am I correct here?)

> > Are we working with an instance of an acupuncturisation of

> herbalism?

> > Or is this just my 21st century mind that thinks that most metabolic

> > functions should occur in the organic tissues instead of the

> channels?

> >

> > --

> > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

> understanding of

> > a problem.'

> >

> > Jiddu Krishnamurti

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

John:

 

thanks for raising this issue as it has bothered me, as well. for instance,

when writing formulas, if i want to send the px to work on a specific organ

system, i might think about the entering channels of the herbs, liv, sp,

etc., but i wonder about it going to the channel itself and not the organ,

and what the difference might mean, in the clinical setting. however,

sometimes when tx a channel problem, its helpful to use an herb with the

assoc. entering channel as an envoy eg: for tx bi syn. generally, i use the

info when weighing pluses and minuses of various herbs. i might choose the

herb with the entering channel assoc. with the patients condition.

 

kb

 

 

On 2/27/07, davelcorp <davelcorp wrote:

>

> Could it be as simple as needing to enter the Channel before it can

> enter the Organ? I'm not sure of the direct translation, but the

> english term that is used is 'Entering Channel', which seems to imply

> that it is the entry way to the body.

> If you want to clear a surface condition, TaiYang Syndrome, you need to

> clear the TaiYang channel, not the organs. Gui Zhi Tang, clears the

> channel. An as a matter of speculation, it seems that for the most

> part, Shang Han Lun addresses channel conditions before Organ

> conditions.

> Not sure if this is all correct, but one possible interpretation,

> -David L.

> On Feb 27, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Mike Liaw wrote:

>

> > I see citing Jing Luo is more complete as each Jing Luo innervates its

> > corresponding organ.

> >

> > Mike L.

> >

> > henry_buchtel <henry.buchtel <henry.buchtel%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " "

> > <johnkokko wrote:

> > >

> > > In acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, it is written that the

> > channels and

> > > zang/fu are connected by root-branch; is this necessarily so for

> > herbal

> > > treatment?

> > > In other words, why did the ancients say that Bai shao goes to the

> > LV/ SP

> > > channels and not the LV/ SP zang/fu? (am I correct here?)

> > > Are we working with an instance of an acupuncturisation of

> > herbalism?

> > > Or is this just my 21st century mind that thinks that most metabolic

> > > functions should occur in the organic tissues instead of the

> > channels?

> > >

> > > --

> > > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

> > understanding of

> > > a problem.'

> > >

> > > Jiddu Krishnamurti

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dear all,

Herbs for channels for Liv or SP.

Please look into the taste, color, and the properties.

Green color will attach to Liver, this is Yin " gathering " , Taste

sour will make the tendon and muscle shrink " Yang " , but the property

of going to the channel depend on its Qi, the warmer the more energy

it expel its Qi outward meaning it will go to the channel as we want.

But in order for it to go to Liv channel. First , green color " leaves

or ripe fruit " , and must have sour taste to perform its function of

contracting. Then warm properties to get theere to the tendons, ligaments.

For Sp, yellow or orange, to gather to Sp, the muscle. Sweet for

nourishing , harmonizing, and transforming, Property will be neutral.

If it is too cold , it will lead the herb deeper to the blood or

bones. If it is too warm it will expel to the upper level " Wei Qi " ,

or skin surface and going the wrong way.

 

Good luck !

Nam Nguyen

[Guest guest]

Hey John and all, any new thoughts about this?

 

I was thinking that if the medicinals affect the channel in the same

way that needling does then (for example) you should be able to treat

lower jaw pain with a medicinal that Enters the LI Channel...

 

Whadaya think? Naive? I'm just studying theory now, no practical

experience...

 

Henry

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<johnkokko wrote:

>

> In acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, it is written that the

channels and

> zang/fu are connected by root-branch; is this necessarily so for herbal

> treatment?

> In other words, why did the ancients say that Bai shao goes to the

LV/ SP

> channels and not the LV/ SP zang/fu? (am I correct here?)

> Are we working with an instance of an acupuncturisation of herbalism?

> Or is this just my 21st century mind that thinks that most metabolic

> functions should occur in the organic tissues instead of the channels?

>

> --

> 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

understanding of

> a problem.'

>

> Jiddu Krishnamurti

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

the theory works, but practically, not sure. maybe a bi px with an LI herb

as an envoy. i will sometimes use that approach. but for pain, acu does

the work, herbs augment the acu.

 

kb

 

 

On 3/8/07, henry_buchtel <henry.buchtel wrote:

>

> Hey John and all, any new thoughts about this?

>

> I was thinking that if the medicinals affect the channel in the same

> way that needling does then (for example) you should be able to treat

> lower jaw pain with a medicinal that Enters the LI Channel...

>

> Whadaya think? Naive? I'm just studying theory now, no practical

> experience...

>

> Henry

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " "

> <johnkokko wrote:

> >

> > In acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, it is written that the

> channels and

> > zang/fu are connected by root-branch; is this necessarily so for herbal

> > treatment?

> > In other words, why did the ancients say that Bai shao goes to the

> LV/ SP

> > channels and not the LV/ SP zang/fu? (am I correct here?)

> > Are we working with an instance of an acupuncturisation of herbalism?

> > Or is this just my 21st century mind that thinks that most metabolic

> > functions should occur in the organic tissues instead of the channels?

> >

> > --

> > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

> understanding of

> > a problem.'

> >

> > Jiddu Krishnamurti

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear colleague,

 

I always think herbs are super-healing as well as the drugs or

chemical therapy if we are using them properly. Our body will treat

them as chemicals. Our food are chemicals!

However, we have learned that herbs are categorized or classified.

This is very important for those who wish to master the herbs. Herbs

are all classified in channels, functions, directions, locations, yin

and yang.

 

We often think we know herbs and we are able to formulate our own

prescriptions which is fine. However, there are some who should be

truthful to themselves if they are good enough in diagnosis or not (

not only in pulses diagnosis, but also in identify the illnesses in

other 3 approaches )in order to render their own formulas as a secret.

 

I 've seen several Acupuncturists have prescribed their formulas. If

it worked, it is a secret formula handed down from so and so... If it

did not work, then the formulas we have learned were all of no value.

They claimed it will be ashamed for those who learn them!!!! If this

is an attitude of an Acupucnturist or Herbalist, then I am not

surprising that M.D will treat herbs with no respects and they want to

control them. Whoever thinks like this, I think this is an

unprofessional conduct......

 

Anyhow, let's work together in this approach and see if we can come up

with something new.

 

No matter what herbs are ( either yin or yang, up or down , in or out

) we must understand them and or memorize them.

If we have no Qi or weak Qi ( Stomach Qi or Kid Qi... ), those herbs

will not be transformed into their forms as we want. Let's say herbs

are properly prepared and the transformation made as needed by

decoction. Again we are facing another problem. When this prepared

herbs enter our body, how does it absorb, enter the channels or organs

since we have no or weak Qi to guide it. THis is a disaster!!!

 

Ex: Sheng Di Huang ( strong Yin, descending, entering deep into

blood, essence and bones, slow-heavy moving, cooling ... ) prepared to

enter our body... Will it be transformed into its property as

described above???????????????

I will say no. Unless we have Qi, good strong Qi to transform it and

absorb it properly. If we do not have good Qi, everything comes in

our body will be reacted as foreign objects. We cannot fight against

it or expel it, we are in danger.

 

Again, my point is to use any herb either in singular or in formular,

we must identify the patient's Qi. I always find for Qi first.

 

If there is pathogenic factor and the Qi is strong, I would expel the

pathogen first " in the morning " , and strengthen the Qi immediately

at night. This usually does not work......... Usually, I use some Qi

strenghtening together of pathogen eliminator for I think eventhough

the Qi is strong, but not strong enough to expel or eradicate the

pathogens.

 

For those who are inexperienced in herbs or formulas. I strongly

suggested the use of the patent formulas and use them with care. My

way of approach and visualization may help some of you.

[Guest guest]

Henry, John,

Gui jing/channel entry as an internal (herbal) medicine concept

first appeared in the Song dynasty works of Zhang Yuan-su. For the

first time, medicinals were said to home to specific channels. As

Paul Unschuld describes it, Zhang " attributed functions not to

qualities, but to particular (medicinals). He emphasized that the

effect of the substance depended on which conduit (channel) it

entered. " This development allowed internal medicine to be united

with acupuncture/moxabustion and the theories of systematic

correspondence that had been developed in the Su Wen and Nan Jing.

However, the gui jing theory was somewhat speculative, and if one

looks at different materia medicas, specific medicinals are often

said to enter different channels. Also, channel entry is usually

assumed by which viscera or bowel is affected, not really taking the

flow of the channel system into account. There are, of course, clear

exceptions to this, as medicinals such as fu zi/aconite or bing pian/

borneol can be felt flowing through the body if one takes enough of

them. Finally, there is clearly a difference between sticking a

needle or lighting a moxa on a specific channel or hole from taking

herbs through the digestive system, although herbal medicines can be

applied externally to channels in a similar manner.

 

We've heard about the 'herbalization' of acupuncture. Perhaps

this is the 'acupuncturization' of herbalism!

 

 

On Mar 8, 2007, at 5:19 PM, henry_buchtel wrote:

 

> Hey John and all, any new thoughts about this?

>

> I was thinking that if the medicinals affect the channel in the same

> way that needling does then (for example) you should be able to treat

> lower jaw pain with a medicinal that Enters the LI Channel...

>

> Whadaya think? Naive? I'm just studying theory now, no practical

> experience...

>

> Henry

>

> Chinese Medicine , " "

> <johnkokko wrote:

> >

> > In acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, it is written that the

> channels and

> > zang/fu are connected by root-branch; is this necessarily so for

> herbal

> > treatment?

> > In other words, why did the ancients say that Bai shao goes to the

> LV/ SP

> > channels and not the LV/ SP zang/fu? (am I correct here?)

> > Are we working with an instance of an acupuncturisation of

> herbalism?

> > Or is this just my 21st century mind that thinks that most metabolic

> > functions should occur in the organic tissues instead of the

> channels?

> >

> > --

> > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

> understanding of

> > a problem.'

> >

> > Jiddu Krishnamurti

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

<johnkokko wrote:

>

> In acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, it is written that the

channels and

> zang/fu are connected by root-branch;

 

The word " connection " is already a materialistic western

interpretation, it implies attached like a string. I'd prefer

a picture like " the ocean is connected to the pebbles "

or the water is connected to the bathtub.

 

>is this necessarily so for herbal

> treatment?

Yes, the principles are the same.

 

> In other words, why did the ancients say that Bai shao goes to the

LV/ SP

> channels and not the LV/ SP zang/fu? (am I correct here?)

 

When reading Gui-Jing (entering?-channel) the " jing " -channel

character is short for Zang-Fu-Jing-Luo.

 

Gui-Jing (entering-channel)is a further classification to specify the

quality of action of a herbal on the human bodies Zang-Fu-Jing-Luo.

 

Gui: the ancient meaning was " a woman getting married " , from there it

developed towards " to return (home), to come back, to give back, to

gather, flow together (stream), to be responsible, to belong to " .

Now you deside if " enter " is a sufficient translation.

 

 

> Are we working with an instance of an acupuncturisation of

herbalism?

An acupuncturisation in terms of qi-flow, guiding qi, manipulating

qi, yes. Some move the qi, some move blood, some move phlegm.

Qi is always involved.

[Guest guest]

Hi meester Johansen and all,

 

My teacher has always shown a preference for saying returning/gathering when

talking about " entering the channels " . This is just the latest example of how

accurate understanding of the language deepens our understanding of our

medicine.

 

Hugo

 

tayfx <aajohansen wrote:

Gui-Jing (entering-channel)is a further classification to specify the

quality of action of a herbal on the human bodies Zang-Fu-Jing-Luo.

 

Gui: the ancient meaning was " a woman getting married " , from there it

developed towards " to return (home), to come back, to give back, to

gather, flow together (stream), to be responsible, to belong to " .

Now you deside if " enter " is a sufficient translation.

 

 

 

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

wrote:

>>In other words, why did the ancients say that Bai shao goes to the

LV/ SP channels and not the LV/ SP zang/fu? (am I correct here?) Are

we working with an instance of an acupuncturisation of herbalism?

 

(Some of this is better explained in Z'ev's later message.)

 

Yes. Remember, as Unschuld documents, most of the parameters of herbs

as we know them stem from the neo-con(fucian) assimilation of herbal

medicine into the " system of correspondences " during the

Song-Jin-Yuan (10th-13th Centuries). Prior to that, they were classed

as upper/middle/lower ranks (nourishing/symptomatic/toxic " drugs " ),

and by type, i.e. stones/minerals, animal products, plants, etc.

 

In fact, the ben caos, from ShenNong through Li ShiZhen, were

structured by this latter scheme (by type of material). Last

weekend's Jeffery Yuen workshop on tongue diagnosis was in effect a

study of the WenBing school/theory, which made tongue diagnosis what

we know it as today " it's all about heat " . I asked him about this,

recalling the big list of heat-related categories that we have all

learned clear heat, fire, blood-heat, toxic-heat, summer-heat,

etc. a major part of 1st year TCM study. Jeffery confirmed that

these are about 300 years old, direct out of WenBing.

 

Then again, when discussing classical authors (e.g. 4 great masters,

or wenbing authors) who were herbal based, Jeffery will often

translat their treatment principles into acupuncture terms, overtly

" acupunctureizing " them, which he believes is a worthwhile exercise,

inherent in the richness of CM. For instance, he will add ATx

" formulas " when discussing the ShangHanLun, noting that these are a

major part of the legacy of Tang-era commentaries on the SHL.

 

In fact, his interpretation is that the richness of acupuncture was

developed from neijing/nanjing through Tang times. Thereafter the

Song-jin-yuan explorations and Ming consolidation simplified the

diverse channel traditions down to the primary channels (plus Ren and

Du the 14 channels, and with the increased focus on zangfu), and

needling down to the fililform type. He characterizes this as an

attempt to make ATx more " user-friendly " , to downplay the various

techniques like " fire-needles " (red-hot needles in sinew-channel Tx)

and bleeding (Luo-channel Tx) which apparently, in early forms of

application, were pretty strong treatments. (Today, we still use

those classical treatments, but as indirect, non-scaring moxa, and

more gentle plum-blossom and light bleeding than may have been the

earlier usages.)

 

 

 

 

--

 

 

Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/716 - Release 3/9/2007 6:53 PM

[Guest guest]

Chris,

If you can lead me to any source texts on SHL approaches to

acupuncture, or Jeffrey's own work on this, it would be greatly

appreciated. I am especially interested on any links from Nan Jing

to herbal medicine, as I have been working on a Nan Jing commentary

for some years now.

 

Thanks,

 

 

On Mar 10, 2007, at 2:39 AM, wrote:

 

>

> Then again, when discussing classical authors (e.g. 4 great masters,

> or wenbing authors) who were herbal based, Jeffery will often

> translat their treatment principles into acupuncture terms, overtly

> " acupunctureizing " them, which he believes is a worthwhile exercise,

> inherent in the richness of CM. For instance, he will add ATx

> " formulas " when discussing the ShangHanLun, noting that these are a

> major part of the legacy of Tang-era commentaries on the SHL.