Shang han lun: six channels vs six layers

February 28, 2007

Dave,

Interesting to think about..

especially when we bring in Zhang Zhong Jing's voice.

I'm contemplating what you wrote about with the Shang han lun addressing

channel conditions before Organ conditions...

The thing is that we were taught by one teacher of the Shang han lun,

that the six " channel " theory originating from the Su wen:

ie tai yang, yang ming, shao yang, tai yin, shao yin, jue yin,

have to do with " six levels or layers " of disease, not literally " six

channels " .

So for instance, Line 350 (pg 545 Mitchell/ Ye/ Wiseman trans Shang han

lun: On cold damage)

under the Jue yin section:

" When in cold damage, the pulse is slippery and (there is) reversal, (there

is) heat in the interior, and White Tiger Decoction (bai hu tang) governs. "

Bai hu tang is the consummate yang ming layer formula, but is also listed

under the jue yin section.

In the commentary, it is written that (bai hu tang) for clearing interior

repletion heat is called for and

since this is not heat bind, (cheng qi tang) would not be used.

In other words, formulas and the herbs in the formulas do not always

associate " channels entered " with " six pattern / six layer " association. ie

Gui zhi tang (gui zhi (ht,lung,ub), bai shao (lv,sp- not tai yang), etc.

Bai hu tang and Da cheng qi tang are also listed under the yang ming (yang

brightness) disease section:

ie. Line 176 for bai hu tang: " When in cold damage the pulse is floating and

slippery, this (means there is) heat in the exterior and (cold -note that

this may be heat) in the interior. White tiger decoction (bai hu tang)

governs. " " Synopsis: The pulse, signs, and treatment of yang brightness

disease with heat in both the exterior and interior. " (pg. 316-317)

Line 220 for da cheng qi tang: " When in dragover disease of the two yang,

the greater yang disease has ceased and (there is) only tidal heat effusion,

sweat streaming from the extremities, difficult defecation and delirious

speech, precipitation will bring about recovery and (therefore), Major

Qi-Coordinating Decoction (da cheng qi tang) is appropriate. " " Synopsis:

The signs and treatment of dragover disease of the two yang that shifts into

yang brightness organ depletion. " (pg 336-337)

Today, we are taught that bai hu tang is used for " yang ming channel

syndrome " and

da cheng qi tang is used for " yang ming fu syndrome " .

In some way, both formulas and the specific herbs in them, go to their

respective channels and organs,

(four herbs in each formula- that go to several different " channels " )

however, they are both listed under the " yang ming " layer - disease pattern.

I'm wondering if anyone who has a copy of the Shen nong ben cao can tell if

the " channels entered " or " entering channels " are listed and what was the

original term used for these?

Also, historically, the earliest of Chinese Materia medicas, including the

Shen nong ben cao, came after the acupuncture tomes of the Nei Jing Su wen

and Ling shu and Nan Jing.

Was the original impetus to call them " channels entered " derived from the

institution of acupuncture terms into the more recent science/categorization

of herbology?

Was there a shift afterwards, or did this become concreted as the model for

future generations?

Thanks, k.

On 2/27/07, davelcorp <davelcorp wrote:

>

> Could it be as simple as needing to enter the Channel before it can

> enter the Organ? I'm not sure of the direct translation, but the

> english term that is used is 'Entering Channel', which seems to imply

> that it is the entry way to the body.

> If you want to clear a surface condition, TaiYang Syndrome, you need to

> clear the TaiYang channel, not the organs. Gui Zhi Tang, clears the

> channel. An as a matter of speculation, it seems that for the most

> part, Shang Han Lun addresses channel conditions before Organ

> conditions.

> Not sure if this is all correct, but one possible interpretation,

> -David L.

>

> On Feb 27, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Mike Liaw wrote:

>

> > I see citing Jing Luo is more complete as each Jing Luo innervates its

> > corresponding organ.

> >

> > Mike L.

> >

> > henry_buchtel <henry.buchtel <henry.buchtel%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " "

> > <johnkokko wrote:

> > >

> > > In acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, it is written that the

> > channels and

> > > zang/fu are connected by root-branch; is this necessarily so for

> > herbal

> > > treatment?

> > > In other words, why did the ancients say that Bai shao goes to the

> > LV/ SP

> > > channels and not the LV/ SP zang/fu? (am I correct here?)

> > > Are we working with an instance of an acupuncturisation of

> > herbalism?

> > > Or is this just my 21st century mind that thinks that most metabolic

> > > functions should occur in the organic tissues instead of the

> > channels?

> > >

> > > --

> > > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

> > understanding of

> > > a problem.'

> > >

> > > Jiddu Krishnamurti

> > >

February 28, 2007

John,

The Shen nong ben cao jing doesn't have the concept of entering

channels. Herbal medicine originally developed according to a

different model than the systematic correspondences of Su Wen, Ling

Shu and Nan Jing, which were the model for acupuncture/moxabustion.

Herbs and prescriptions were almost exclusively associated with

symptoms and ailments at this point.

The concept of 'gui jing' or channel entry vis a vis herbal

medicine began during the Song dynasty through the work of Zhang Yuan-

su, who was a teacher of Li Dong-yuan. The Song-Jin-Yuan dynasty

period, from approximately the 12th to 13th century was a renaissance

period for Chinese medicine, when systematic correspondence was

applied to herbal medicine, finally. The Shang Han Lun also became

mainstream at this time.

Paul Unschuld's work " " published by Paradigm

Press also discusses these developments as well.

On Feb 27, 2007, at 9:10 PM, wrote:

> I'm wondering if anyone who has a copy of the Shen nong ben cao can

> tell if

> the " channels entered " or " entering channels " are listed and what

> was the

> original term used for these?

>

> Also, historically, the earliest of Chinese Materia medicas,

> including the

> Shen nong ben cao, came after the acupuncture tomes of the Nei Jing

> Su wen

> and Ling shu and Nan Jing.

> Was the original impetus to call them " channels entered " derived

> from the

> institution of acupuncture terms into the more recent science/

> categorization

> of herbology?

>

> Was there a shift afterwards, or did this become concreted as the

> model for

> future generations?

February 28, 2007

> I'm wondering if anyone who has a copy of the Shen nong ben cao can

tell if

> the " channels entered " or " entering channels " are listed and what

was the

> original term used for these?

Channel entry for medicinals wasn't developed at the time of the Shen

Nong Ben Cao Jing. Channel entry didn't emerge until about a thousand

years later, during the Song dynasty, and has been debated ever since.

Channel entry is still inconsistent across different texts, even core

curriculum textbooks in Chinese. Incidentally, the term in Chinese is

literally " returning channels, " usually rendered as entering channels

in English.

Eric

February 28, 2007

Eric,

I would like to hear more about your understanding of ¡°gui1.¡± Have you

found Chinese sources/ people discuss channels as ¡°returning¡± ¨C This

seems a bit peculiar to me.

For those unfamiliar, the Chinese characters are (¹é¾, gui1 jing1). Jing1

is of course ¡°channel.¡± In modern times Gui1¡¯s first usage and dictionary

entry is the common ¡°return¡±, but it also has the popular modern meaning

of to ¡°belong.¡±

Clearly ¡°entering channels¡± makes sense as a translation, but why did the

Chinese choose the word ¡°gui1¡±?

Interestingly, in classical medical Chinese it can be understood in a few

ways. From the Nei Jing (su wen) Chapter 5 it has a physiological usage of

to ¡°nourish¡± or ¡°support¡±, or as one of my teaches put it ¡°turn into¡±.

For example (wei4 gui1 xing2, xing2 gui1 qi4¡). ¡°Flavor nourishes the

physical form, and the physical form supports the qi4.¡± Although I have

found some controversy on this passage, as in most parts of the NeiJing, the

large majority of commentaries that I have found agree on gui1 meaning the

above. Could this help understand ¡°gui1 jing1¡±?

Well this idea of ¡°nourish¡± makes sense for tonic herbs, but what about a

medicinal that clears something from a channel. I am just riffing here, but

maybe the channels are nourished with the property of the medicinal? if

there is cold in a channel then one nourishes it with the warmth (from

something like wu zhu yu) to eliminate the cold. The Bladder is nourished

with the properties of Gui zhi to help transform edema.

Therefore I find that this classical usage may give a bit more insight into

our discussion at hand, and why I don¡¯t understand ¡°returning¡± as a

literal Chinese translation.

What do others think?

-

_____

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Eric

Brand

Wednesday, February 28, 2007 1:00 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Shang han lun: six channels vs six layers

> I'm wondering if anyone who has a copy of the Shen nong ben cao can

tell if

> the " channels entered " or " entering channels " are listed and what

was the

> original term used for these?

Channel entry for medicinals wasn't developed at the time of the Shen

Nong Ben Cao Jing. Channel entry didn't emerge until about a thousand

years later, during the Song dynasty, and has been debated ever since.

Channel entry is still inconsistent across different texts, even core

curriculum textbooks in Chinese. Incidentally, the term in Chinese is

literally " returning channels, " usually rendered as entering channels

in English.

Eric

February 28, 2007

Chinese Medicine , " "

<johnkokko wrote:

> I'm wondering if anyone who has a copy of the Shen nong ben cao can

tell if the " channels entered " or " entering channels " are listed and

what was the original term used for these?

>

> Also, historically, the earliest of Chinese Materia medicas, including

the

> Shen nong ben cao, came after the acupuncture tomes of the Nei Jing Su

wen and Ling shu and Nan Jing.

> Was the original impetus to call them " channels entered " derived from

the institution of acupuncture terms into the more recent

science/categorization of herbology?

>

> Was there a shift afterwards, or did this become concreted as the

model for future generations?

>

> Thanks, k.

>

About the history of " Gui Jing " my Herbology textbook* says-

The development of " Gui Jing Theory " can be traced back to pre-Qin

Dynasty literature and documents such as <<Rites of the Zhou Dynasty>>

as well as those written since the Qin-Han such as <<Nei Jing>> <<Shen

Nong Ben Cao Jing>> <<Ming Yi Bie Lu>> <<Qian Jin Yao Fang>> and

numerous other medical documents which expound extensively on the

concept of the " Wu Wei " (five flavors?) having functions of " fixed

orientation and position " , which can be viewed as the first sign

(origin) of " Gui Jing Theory. "

The use of different herbs for each of the Six Jing in <<Shang Han

Lun>> established a sound foundation for " Gui Jing Theory. " The medical

texts <<Shi Liao Ben Cao>> <<Ben Cao Shi Yi>> <<Ben Cao Yan Yi>> <<Su

Shen Liang Fang>> of the Tang-Song period all have sections discussing

medical herbs " fixed orientation and position " function as also having

a " Gui (return to) Jing " function, as well as gradually linking Zangfu

and Jingluo together. [in these books] " Gui Jing Theory " appears in an

embryonic form.

In the Jin-Yuan period, Zhang JieGu, the representive member of the

" Yi Shui " (Easy water?) school of thought, in his book <<Zhen Zhu

Nang>>, formally used " Gui Jing " as an important property of medical

herbs and discussed it further. Wang Hao Gu in <<Tang Ye Ben Cao>> and

Xu Yan Chun in <<Ben Cao Fa Hui>> compiled the opinions regarding " Gui

Jing " of the medical professionals of the Jin-Yuan period, indicating

that systematic " Gui Jing Theory " had already been firmly established.

In the Ming Dynasty, Liu WenTai's <<Ben Cao Pin Hui Jing Yao>> and

Jia JiuRu's <<Yao Pin Hua Yi>> all took " Xing Mou (Moves a certain)

Jing " and " Ru Mou (enters a certain) Jing " and used them as fixed items

when discussing the properties of medical herbs.

In the Qing Dynasty, Shen JinAo, in his book <<Yao Yao Fen Ji>>,

first listed each herb's " Gui Jing " properties as " Primary Treatment "

then described the herb's properties. In addition, he used the names of

the Five Zang and Six Fu. <<Song Ya Yi Jing>>, <<Wu Zhong Yao Xing>>

systematically summarized which herbs " return " to which of the Twelve

Jing Mai. <<Ben Cao Fen Jing>>, <<De Pei Ben Cao>> again provide a list

and revise which herbs " return " to which of the Non-Jing Eight Mai. The

rise of the Warm Disease school of thought also gave birth to the new

concept of " returning to " " Wei, Qi, Ying, Xue " and the Triple Burner.

[with this] " Gui Jing Theory " attained perfection.

(my translation)

* " Traditional Chinese Pharmacology " Standard High Level TCM Textbook

Series published by the China TCM Publishing House. Used without

permission!

Curious that at various times " Gui Jing " referred to Zhang Zhong Jing's

Six Jing (layers) as well as the twelve Jing Mai (channels) of

acupuncture...

Are there any sources that say, for example, Bai Shao returns to Foot

JueYin Liver Jing and Foot TaiYin Spleen Jing?

Henry

February 28, 2007

Dear Colleague,

Six channels, 5 element, Yin-Yang, Extra Vessels, Muscle channels,

Tendon Channels, Meridians or Collaterals, Qi-Blood, and other

Miscellaneous concepts or theories are references for us to visualize

and to get start from that angle, not to follow the exact pattern.

I have seen in seminars, the professors were very proud of themselves

they came from this school and that...... and then presented

themselves teaching in just a corner of wisdom, ignored the rest. What

ashamed!!!

In California, during the summerime I had a friend " professional

Acupuncturist " diagnose a patients based on Shang Han Lun.

A patient revealed, symptoms of extreme heat, big pulse-rapid,

headache, constipation, profuse sweating,insomnia, dry tongue, big thirst.

He said this is Yangming stage and prescribed the Bai Hu Tang.

All problems got worse! Then he used different formula " his secret "

and the problem solved. He told me : Oh! Zang Jong Zinh was wrong

about this problem. If I continued to use his formula, I may go into

jail!!!

I received that as an offense. First, I know you are not well in

theory of all diseases no matter that your background as an Electrical

Engineer.

Shang Han Lun is a pathway of pathogenic cold invading the exterior

then through the channels if not properly treated. You are treating a

disease occured in Summer heat, California which is odd and you blamed

on his wisdom...... There must be more for him to teach us, but in

papers somehow he could not detail all what he want us to learn, but

at least it is a reference for us to learn to adopt or to avoid his

formulas depend on a situation. His way and his approach is not the

only one. However, if you analyze some of the herbs, formulars and

diseases he used in each situation is extremely amazing. I do not

think you are well famous enough to make judgment about him or his

knowledge, but study more carefully and find out.

I wish all of us look into all illnesses and diseases with care and

render treatments, not to blame others.........

Another case from seminar : High Blood Pressure.

The professor proudly presented , I am from this and this school of....

Why do we have high blood pressure? All come from blood heat!!!!

We have to clear the heat, tonify Yin and elimate toxin!!!! A must!

I asked : Blood pressure treatment in this way may get worse or fatal?

In Westerm medicine : diuretic ( sedate YIn ), dilate the vessels (

Yang ) and some potassium to compensate for the loss in urination.

If we tonify yin, the vessels can get more constriction " Yin

properties " , the blood may get thicker " Yin prop " , Blood gets

thicker " Yin prop " and now we are tonify YIN???....... Some patients

or most patients who are with Yin deficiency with heat, clearing heat

is destroying Yang energy, life will end there. TOxin ? Where is the

symptom of toxin???

This is the analogy for someone who is caused by medications, drugs,

food or acute conditions is fine and it must be used for a short time.

I do not think she was happy when I said so. But that is what I

experience........

Let's define Blood pressure. Blood is fluid. Gas and fluid has

pressure expanding in all direction equally. Pressure in blood, liquid

depend on its density, weight and volume.

Because of its thickness ( Aspirin , or other similar generics ) the

thinner must be used " Yang property " , Volume, Vessel dilator " Yang

Prop " , Weight, Diuretics " less fluid less weight, Unblock Yang, or

Yin sedate whatever we called " minerals Potassium " Yang pro " . The

treatments were instant effects and can be used for a long time. But

we are using in reverse! I had a friend using Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin...

other Zhi Ba Di Huang Wan .. some Ling Jiao Gou Teng Tang and they got

better with one time, then got worse and worse...

All I am presenting here are true cases.

Why don't we look into reality! We are reading books and think we are

the top of the world!!! It is crazy... Think! They are only for

references even though with your instructors. They are making their

sales and they are selling their books. We must use our wisdom,

reason, analyze then carefully apply.

Some or most cases of high blood pressure they do not have heat

symptoms nor excess symptoms. These are elderly. We must look into

Yang and encourage Yang to break down the thickness of blood, expand

the vessels, clear the plaque in the arteries and moisterize all the

vessels or nourish them. We are also look into excess problems too.

But open our eyes and see further!!!!!!!! This is my experience in

treatment of BP.

Thanks all !

February 28, 2007

> I would like to hear more about your understanding of ¡°gui1.¡± Have you

> found Chinese sources/ people discuss channels as ¡°returning¡± ¨C This

> seems a bit peculiar to me.

No, no one discusses it as 'returning.' I wasn't making any point

about the meaning of 'gui' in CM, just translating the word literally

based upon its most common colloquial use. No particular relevance to

its wider meanings, just common habit of pointing out which character

is being discussed by using English instead of the Chinese method of

saying 'the gui as in danggui, etc.'

Eric

February 28, 2007

Eric, and Jason,

Actually, when I see " entering " a channel, the first Chinese expression poped

up in my mind is Ru4 rather than Gui1. Ru4 x Jing is about as commonly used as

Gui1 x Jing in my experience.

BTW, Eric, are you familiar with the research work of Prof. Wang WK in herbs

Gui Jing using his pulse taking device? I'd like to hear your comment on that.

Mike L.

Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote:

> I would like to hear more about your understanding of ¡°gui1.¡± Have

you

> found Chinese sources/ people discuss channels as ¡°returning¡± ¨C This

> seems a bit peculiar to me.

No, no one discusses it as 'returning.' I wasn't making any point

about the meaning of 'gui' in CM, just translating the word literally

based upon its most common colloquial use. No particular relevance to

its wider meanings, just common habit of pointing out which character

is being discussed by using English instead of the Chinese method of

saying 'the gui as in danggui, etc.'

Eric

Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels

in 45,000 destinations on Travel to find your fit.

February 28, 2007

> Actually, when I see " entering " a channel, the first Chinese

expression poped up in my mind is Ru4 rather than Gui1. Ru4 x Jing is

about as commonly used as Gui1 x Jing in my experience.

Yes, both expression styles are common, but I think the ultimate

meaning is synonymous for all practical purposes. Of course, 'ru' is

closer to the literally meaning of entering than 'gui' as a single

word, but in the compound terms I don't know of any difference in

nuance where channel entry is concerned.

> BTW, Eric, are you familiar with the research work of Prof. Wang

WK in herbs Gui Jing using his pulse taking device? I'd like to hear

your comment on that.

No, the only pulse taking device that I am familiar with is one that

Dr. Chang Hen-Hong (the Vice Superintendent of Chang Gung Memorial

Hospital in Taoyuan, Taiwan) is involved with researching. I'm not

informed about the technology that you are referring to.

Best,

Eric

March 1, 2007

Henry,

Interesting stuff. Which text are you referring to?

-Jason

_____

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

henry_buchtel

Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:04 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Shang han lun: six channels vs six layers

Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40>

Chinese_Medicine , " "