Guest guest Posted April 28, 2007 Report Share Posted April 28, 2007 What do you all know about the use of cold lasers in dental practices. I can't believe they are not firing up acupuncture points or really moving energy. What concerns me is when they are not trained in acpuncture and are using it. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > Dear Friends, > > Our esteemed member, Dr. Phil Roger's post about the therapeutic benefit of > injecting sub-clinical doses of pharmaceuticals into acupuncture points of > veterinary patients brings up a discussion from a couple of years ago. One of > the great integrative advances in China has been the use of injecting sterile > formulae into acupoints. First of all, what is the legal status in New Mexico > as far as injecting procaine, saline or B12 into acupoints? Second, has there > been any discussion of training (and obviously lobbying state legislators to > allow) DAOMs to inject Chinese medicinals? > > Anybody know anything? > > Yehua > > > > > > > > > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell? > Check outnew cars at Autos. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2007 Report Share Posted April 28, 2007 re: lasers in dental practices lots of people push on acupuncture points for massage, self treatment, etc. who are not trained I'm not sure why this should be a concern. Obviously dentists have developed some protocols that are beneficial to their patients for the work they do. I know nothing of cold laser but I have seen and experienced how well a high powered laser can work therapeutically for musculoskeletal disorders. And you don't have to use acupuncture theory to apply it. You do have to be safe. And of course a solid diagnosis helps in the location of the lesion for treatment. (but then again not always, just like acupuncture.) I too worry about others co-opting 'our' medicine but you have to look rationally at the field of medicine. Light and laser are slowly becoming a big part of 'conventional' medicine. someday probably everyone will have sort of light device in their home for self treatment. my 2cents, Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2007 Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 Thanks, Phil: You are shedding some light on it. Do you think it is safe for a dentist to use this instrument on acupuncture points (even if only on face and/or neck) without any training in acupuncture? Don't you think we need to monitor the pulses when any points are hit? I would think laser, that can go through walls, is much more powerful than pressing a point (e.g. massage - also most of them know more about energy movement in the body). Just teasing this out, Phil. I am really concerned about the long terms safety of it. If you are treating a localized area with cookbook points, not monitoring the pulses, it seems you are changing the entire energy in the body. Couldn't you be making other conditions worse - if you are not monitoring pulses. I agree with you that infared light may be in the patient's home, but I would hope it is monitored by a professional, trained in acupuncture. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- Philip Cusick <pkcusick > re: lasers in dental practices > lots of people push on acupuncture points for massage, self > treatment, etc. who are not trained > > I'm not sure why this should be a concern. Obviously dentists have > developed some protocols that are beneficial to their patients for > the work they do. I know nothing of cold laser but I have seen and > experienced how well a high powered laser can work therapeutically > for musculoskeletal disorders. And you don't have to use acupuncture > theory to apply it. You do have to be safe. And of course a solid > diagnosis helps in the location of the lesion for treatment. (but > then again not always, just like acupuncture.) > > I too worry about others co-opting 'our' medicine but you have to > look rationally at the field of medicine. Light and laser are slowly > becoming a big part of 'conventional' medicine. someday probably > everyone will have sort of light device in their home for self > treatment. > > my 2cents, Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2007 Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 except for LAc in CA who are not allowed to use lasers because some in our profession are hell bent to limit our own scope of practice - Philip Cusick Chinese Medicine Saturday, April 28, 2007 10:18 AM Re: cold lasers by non acpuncturists re: lasers in dental practices lots of people push on acupuncture points for massage, self treatment, etc. who are not trained I'm not sure why this should be a concern. Obviously dentists have developed some protocols that are beneficial to their patients for the work they do. I know nothing of cold laser but I have seen and experienced how well a high powered laser can work therapeutically for musculoskeletal disorders. And you don't have to use acupuncture theory to apply it. You do have to be safe. And of course a solid diagnosis helps in the location of the lesion for treatment. (but then again not always, just like acupuncture.) I too worry about others co-opting 'our' medicine but you have to look rationally at the field of medicine. Light and laser are slowly becoming a big part of 'conventional' medicine. someday probably everyone will have sort of light device in their home for self treatment. my 2cents, Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2007 Report Share Posted April 29, 2007 That's alarming , Marcus. Is CA the only state where acupuncturists are not allowed to use lasers? This is especially crazy since other professions are using it with no Eastern Medicine training. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus > except for LAc in CA who are not allowed to use lasers because some in our > profession are hell bent to limit our own scope of practice > > > > > > > > > > - > Philip Cusick > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, April 28, 2007 10:18 AM > Re: cold lasers by non acpuncturists > > > re: lasers in dental practices > lots of people push on acupuncture points for massage, self > treatment, etc. who are not trained > > I'm not sure why this should be a concern. Obviously dentists have > developed some protocols that are beneficial to their patients for > the work they do. I know nothing of cold laser but I have seen and > experienced how well a high powered laser can work therapeutically > for musculoskeletal disorders. And you don't have to use acupuncture > theory to apply it. You do have to be safe. And of course a solid > diagnosis helps in the location of the lesion for treatment. (but > then again not always, just like acupuncture.) > > I too worry about others co-opting 'our' medicine but you have to > look rationally at the field of medicine. Light and laser are slowly > becoming a big part of 'conventional' medicine. someday probably > everyone will have sort of light device in their home for self > treatment. > > my 2cents, Phil > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2007 Report Share Posted April 30, 2007 Although CA does not explicitly permit the use of low level laser therapy (LLLT) by licensed acupuncturists, the legal status is not entirely clear. Back in 1993, the California Acupuncture Board's legal counsel issued a legal opinion that stated that he did not believe that LLLT was within scope. This year, the CAB's legal counsel indicated that LLLT may be within scope on the grounds that it could be considered a new acupuncture point stimulation device but that these laser devices are all considered " investigational " by the FDA. Due to the FDA Class III investigational classification, LLLT devices may only be distributed to individual practitioners who have approval from an Institutional Review Board (IRB) for investigational clinical use. There are also requirements regarding things such as monitoring investigations, maintaining records, making reports, etc. So the use of LLLT by licensed acupuncturists in CA is not so clear cut. Regarding the question of whether or not LLLT by non-AOM practitioners... Use of LLLT is not the exclusive purview of acupuncture. Quite the opposite. The first use of biostimulation lasers was in 1967 by Endre Mester, MD at Semmelweis University in Hungary. The use as an acupuncture point stimulation device is more recent. Alon is absolutely correct about the desire by some in our profession to prevent the explicit inclusion of " light " or " laser light " in our scope. CSOMA supported a bill (AB 636) in California this year that would have added " light " to our scope. (The bill has now been dropped until next year.) The " light " bill was opposed by the Council of Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine Associations (CAOMA) and by some individuals within the profession on the grounds that LLLT lacked " scientific, evidence- based data... showing the efficacy of such procedures. " The implications of such a statement are chilling. Limitation of our scope to " evidenced based medicine " would apply a far stricter standard to our scope than to any other. Logically, such as standard would not allow for licensed acupuncturists to participate in developing an evidence basis for any new device, therapy, or procedure. We would be confined to the existing evidence base and would have to wait for other professions to prove the efficacy of anything new before we would be allowed to participate in its use. --Bill. -- Bill Mosca, LAc Executive Director California State Oriental Medical Association (CSOMA) 703 Market Street, Suite 250 San Francisco • CA • 94103-2100 [Toll Free Voice]: (800) 477-4564 • [Fax]: (415) 357-1940 : bill • [Website]: csomaonline.org On Apr 29, 2007, at 1:53 PM, anne.crowley wrote: > That's alarming , Marcus. Is CA the only state where > acupuncturists are not allowed to use lasers? This is especially > crazy since other professions are using it with no Eastern Medicine > training. > > Anne > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus >> except for LAc in CA who are not allowed to use lasers because >> some in our >> profession are hell bent to limit our own scope of practice >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> - >> Philip Cusick >> >> Saturday, April 28, 2007 10:18 AM >> Re: cold lasers by non acpuncturists >> >> >> re: lasers in dental practices >> lots of people push on acupuncture points for massage, self >> treatment, etc. who are not trained >> >> I'm not sure why this should be a concern. Obviously dentists have >> developed some protocols that are beneficial to their patients for >> the work they do. I know nothing of cold laser but I have seen and >> experienced how well a high powered laser can work therapeutically >> for musculoskeletal disorders. And you don't have to use >> acupuncture >> theory to apply it. You do have to be safe. And of course a solid >> diagnosis helps in the location of the lesion for treatment. (but >> then again not always, just like acupuncture.) >> >> I too worry about others co-opting 'our' medicine but you have to >> look rationally at the field of medicine. Light and laser are >> slowly >> becoming a big part of 'conventional' medicine. someday probably >> everyone will have sort of light device in their home for self >> treatment. >> >> my 2cents, Phil >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2007 Report Share Posted April 30, 2007 Bill Not only LLLT has almost as much evidence as does acupuncture, how about class IV (high power hot lasers) which are FDA approved heat therapy. We can use heat lamps but because of such people as CAOMA we cant use laser to heat points and joints a technique that works very well. I do not understand why the profession is not boycotting CAOMA and why we do not truly expose their anti CM agenda. - " Bill Mosca " <mosca <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:25 PM Re: Re: cold lasers by non acpuncturists Although CA does not explicitly permit the use of low level laser therapy (LLLT) by licensed acupuncturists, the legal status is not entirely clear. Back in 1993, the California Acupuncture Board's legal counsel issued a legal opinion that stated that he did not believe that LLLT was within scope. This year, the CAB's legal counsel indicated that LLLT may be within scope on the grounds that it could be considered a new acupuncture point stimulation device but that these laser devices are all considered " investigational " by the FDA. Due to the FDA Class III investigational classification, LLLT devices may only be distributed to individual practitioners who have approval from an Institutional Review Board (IRB) for investigational clinical use. There are also requirements regarding things such as monitoring investigations, maintaining records, making reports, etc. So the use of LLLT by licensed acupuncturists in CA is not so clear cut. Regarding the question of whether or not LLLT by non-AOM practitioners... Use of LLLT is not the exclusive purview of acupuncture. Quite the opposite. The first use of biostimulation lasers was in 1967 by Endre Mester, MD at Semmelweis University in Hungary. The use as an acupuncture point stimulation device is more recent. Alon is absolutely correct about the desire by some in our profession to prevent the explicit inclusion of " light " or " laser light " in our scope. CSOMA supported a bill (AB 636) in California this year that would have added " light " to our scope. (The bill has now been dropped until next year.) The " light " bill was opposed by the Council of Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine Associations (CAOMA) and by some individuals within the profession on the grounds that LLLT lacked " scientific, evidence- based data... showing the efficacy of such procedures. " The implications of such a statement are chilling. Limitation of our scope to " evidenced based medicine " would apply a far stricter standard to our scope than to any other. Logically, such as standard would not allow for licensed acupuncturists to participate in developing an evidence basis for any new device, therapy, or procedure. We would be confined to the existing evidence base and would have to wait for other professions to prove the efficacy of anything new before we would be allowed to participate in its use. --Bill. -- Bill Mosca, LAc Executive Director California State Oriental Medical Association (CSOMA) 703 Market Street, Suite 250 San Francisco • CA • 94103-2100 [Toll Free Voice]: (800) 477-4564 • [Fax]: (415) 357-1940 : bill • [Website]: csomaonline.org On Apr 29, 2007, at 1:53 PM, anne.crowley wrote: > That's alarming , Marcus. Is CA the only state where > acupuncturists are not allowed to use lasers? This is especially > crazy since other professions are using it with no Eastern Medicine > training. > > Anne > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus >> except for LAc in CA who are not allowed to use lasers because >> some in our >> profession are hell bent to limit our own scope of practice >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> - >> Philip Cusick >> >> Saturday, April 28, 2007 10:18 AM >> Re: cold lasers by non acpuncturists >> >> >> re: lasers in dental practices >> lots of people push on acupuncture points for massage, self >> treatment, etc. who are not trained >> >> I'm not sure why this should be a concern. Obviously dentists have >> developed some protocols that are beneficial to their patients for >> the work they do. I know nothing of cold laser but I have seen and >> experienced how well a high powered laser can work therapeutically >> for musculoskeletal disorders. And you don't have to use >> acupuncture >> theory to apply it. You do have to be safe. And of course a solid >> diagnosis helps in the location of the lesion for treatment. (but >> then again not always, just like acupuncture.) >> >> I too worry about others co-opting 'our' medicine but you have to >> look rationally at the field of medicine. Light and laser are >> slowly >> becoming a big part of 'conventional' medicine. someday probably >> everyone will have sort of light device in their home for self >> treatment. >> >> my 2cents, Phil >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2007 Report Share Posted April 30, 2007 Bill and others, As long as we are discussing transparency of organizations or agendas, what is the CAOMA really about and who decides their agenda? How does one become a member or get involved to make changes to such an archaic stance?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en-US & form=QBRE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Mike, The organizational politics in California are far too complex to convey in an email. This is the stuff that doctoral theses in sociology are made of. In short, CAOMA is composed of nine or so smaller associations that tend to identify along Asian ethnic lines: several Chinese organizations, one Korean, one Japanese, one Vietnamese, etc. CAOMA's policies are ostensibly defined by these constituent organizations, but the exact decision-making mechanisms are not entirely apparent from the outside. Complicating matters significantly is the fact that the vast majority of the members of these constituent orgs are non-native English speakers. This tends to concentrate influence in the hands of those with the strongest language skills. CSOMA participated in CAOMA at one point in time but has not participated as a CAOMA member for some years now. We do, however, make a concerted effort to keep a dialog open with them. What can we do? Well, for one, join a state-level association in whatever state you practice in. In California, CSOMA has been the largest state-level association, but the vast majority of practitioners still belong to no state association. I'd recommend that every practitioner find a state association that best represents their personal views and interests and join it. There is power in numbers and is no better way to ensure that your interests and perspectives are represented. If you or anyone would like to discuss the details of the political situation in California, please feel free to ring me at the number below anytime. A phone conversation is probably the most efficient way to fairly and accurately convey the complexity of California's professional landscape. --Bill. -- Bill Mosca, LAc Executive Director California State Oriental Medical Association (CSOMA) 703 Market Street, Suite 250 San Francisco • CA • 94103-2100 [Toll Free Voice]: (800) 477-4564 • [Fax]: (415) 357-1940 : bill • [Website]: csomaonline.org On Apr 30, 2007, at 9:03 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > Bill and others, > As long as we are discussing transparency of organizations or > agendas, what > is the CAOMA really about and who decides their agenda? How does > one become > a member or get involved to make changes to such an archaic stance? > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en-US & form=QBRE > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Bill, Thanks for the info and I will keep you in mind when I return to CA in a couple of years. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world & mkt=en-US & form=QBRE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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