Bonghan Ducts revisited

May 1, 2007

Hi Yehuda, Mike & All,

Yehuda wrote:

> Here's the link to the article:

> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1810370

> Thanks for the impetus of getting this to you goes to our esteemed

> member, Mike Bowser, who sent me a voluminous amount of information on

> the Bonghan ducts, asked me if I could post it to the group, but then

> I found this great article that really summarizes everything. All the

> best, Yehuda

The article [Evid Based Complement Alternat Med. 2007 March; 4(1):

77-82. Published online 2006 August 30. doi: 10.1093/ecam/nel057.

2006 The Author(s). Use of Magnetic Nanoparticles to Visualize

Threadlike Structures Inside Lymphatic Vessels of Rats Hyeon-Min Johng,1

Jung Sun Yoo,1 Tae-Jong Yoon,2 Hak-Soo Shin,1 Byung-Cheon Lee,1,3

Changhoon Lee,1 Jin-Kyu Lee,2 and Kwang-Sup Soh1 1Biomedical Physics

Laboratory, FPRD School of Physics and Astronomy, 2Materials Chemistry

Laboratory School of Chemistry and 3Research Institute of Basic Sciences

Seoul National University, Seoul, Korea Corresponding author. For reprints

and all correspondence: Kwang-Sup Soh, Biomedical Physics Laboratory,

School of Physics, Seoul National University, Seoul 151-747, Korea. Tel:

+82-2-880-7750; Fax: +82-2-878-9172; E-mail: kssoh

Received December 16, 2005; Accepted July 25, 2006. ] is most interesting.

The authors state near the end of the article:

" In this series of development the current work using nanoparticles is

significant in the sense that it provides a direct visual demonstration of the

threadlike structure. In addition, this technology has promising potential for

tracing the new circulatory system when relevant techniques become more

developed because the movement of nanoparticles can be easily controlled

by a magnetic field. Once the new circulatory system has been traced, the

information can be applied for drug delivery to internal organs through

acupuncture meridians with traceable and controllable means. "

Phil's comment: Based on the data in the article, we are a light-years

[pardon the pun!] away from confirming the existence of an integrated 3-D

network of Channels that corresponds anatomically or functionally with the

classical Jingluo system.

Best regards,

May 1, 2007

I have to agree with Phil. Although the article was very interesting

to read, I still cannot understand the need for a physical model to

explain acupuncture channels. In my opinion, a much better model is

an informational model, such as the one developed by Dr. Yoshio

Manaka and explained in his book, " Chasing the Dragon's

Tail " (Paradigm Press). Basically, he sees the body and its

physiological structures as 'hardware', and the channel system as

'software'. They are not dependent on structures, but on systematic

relationships of interactions of body systems. They are the built-in

'intelligence' of the body.

On May 1, 2007, at 5:41 AM, wrote:

>

> Phil's comment: Based on the data in the article, we are a light-years

> [pardon the pun!] away from confirming the existence of an

> integrated 3-D

> network of Channels that corresponds anatomically or functionally

> with the

> classical Jingluo system.

May 2, 2007

Zev,

Maybe this is what is really the mai and we are simply starting to

access it. It might not be a necessity although I happen to think it

will make our profession more accepted and may lead to better

clinical outcomes when we understand it more completely. There

are many graduates from different schools that for one reason or

another have never really accepted the classical ideas of the mai

and most likely will not until someone can show it to them. In other

words, we may continue to be a fragmented profession over this

simple and fundamental issue much like the chiropractors on

subluxation. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

: zrosenbe:

Tue, 1 May 2007 11:40:22 -0700Re: Bonghan Ducts revisited

I have to agree with Phil. Although the article was very interesting to read, I

still cannot understand the need for a physical model to explain acupuncture

channels. In my opinion, a much better model is an informational model, such as

the one developed by Dr. Yoshio Manaka and explained in his book, " Chasing the

Dragon's Tail " (Paradigm Press). Basically, he sees the body and its

physiological structures as 'hardware', and the channel system as 'software'.

They are not dependent on structures, but on systematic relationships of

interactions of body systems. They are the built-in 'intelligence' of the

body.On May 1, 2007, at 5:41 AM, wrote:>> Phil's

comment: Based on the data in the article, we are a light-years> [pardon the

pun!] away from confirming the existence of an > integrated 3-D> network of

Channels that corresponds anatomically or functionally > with the> classical

Jingluo system.

May 2, 2007

Mike,

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I feel no need to cater to an

intellectual fashion, i.e. scientism, to try to explain the channels

in a way that they are probably not intended to be. By this I mean

the generations of physicians who worked with Chinese medical

principles in an effective manner. I don't think that we have to

have a physiological basis for every concept in medicine. Perhaps at

some point an informational, systems theory model will become

widespread enough that channel theory will be understood beyond the

limitations of what is conventional 'wisdom' at this point.

On May 1, 2007, at 8:48 PM, mike Bowser wrote:

> Zev,

>

> Maybe this is what is really the mai and we are simply starting to

> access it. It might not be a necessity although I happen to think it

> will make our profession more accepted and may lead to better

> clinical outcomes when we understand it more completely. There

> are many graduates from different schools that for one reason or

> another have never really accepted the classical ideas of the mai

> and most likely will not until someone can show it to them. In other

> words, we may continue to be a fragmented profession over this

> simple and fundamental issue much like the chiropractors on

> subluxation. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> To:

> Chinese Medicine:zrosenbe

> te: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:40:22 -0700Re: Bonghan Ducts

> revisited

>

> I have to agree with Phil. Although the article was very

> interesting to read, I still cannot understand the need for a

> physical model to explain acupuncture channels. In my opinion, a

> much better model is an informational model, such as the one

> developed by Dr. Yoshio Manaka and explained in his book, " Chasing

> the Dragon's Tail " (Paradigm Press). Basically, he sees the body

> and its physiological structures as 'hardware', and the channel

> system as 'software'. They are not dependent on structures, but on

> systematic relationships of interactions of body systems. They are

> the built-in 'intelligence' of the body.On May 1,

> 2007, at 5:41 AM, wrote:>> Phil's comment: Based on the

> data in the article, we are a light-years> [pardon the pun!] away

> from confirming the existence of an > integrated 3-D> network of

> Channels that corresponds anatomically or functionally > with the>

> classical Jingluo system.[Non-text portions of this messa

> ________

> Discover the new Windows Vista

> http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en-US & form=QBRE

>

May 2, 2007

Zev,

I agree but want to point out that this might include a physical

structure in the grand scheme of things as well. This is a complex

issue and not simply a need to cater but in reality we live in a modern

world and need to learn to adapt to this as well. Adaption or adoption

of new ideas is what made Chinese medicine but it seems that our

current state of affairs seems to lack this interest. I applaud the creation

of new ideas or application, mostly they seem to come from SE Asia

(China, Korea or Japan), few seem to originate from the west. Any ideas

on how to change this? Whether we in the west want to acknowledge this work

or similar works, it is happening and with it will come change that we cannot

stop

and might in fact create a divide within the profession. The Tao is about

change. We can either make it smoothly or not. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

: zrosenbe:

Tue, 1 May 2007 21:10:08 -0700Re: Bonghan Ducts revisited

Mike,I don't mean to sound harsh, but I feel no need to cater to an intellectual

fashion, i.e. scientism, to try to explain the channels in a way that they are

probably not intended to be. By this I mean the generations of physicians who

worked with Chinese medical principles in an effective manner. I don't think

that we have to have a physiological basis for every concept in medicine.

Perhaps at some point an informational, systems theory model will become

widespread enough that channel theory will be understood beyond the limitations

of what is conventional 'wisdom' at this point.On May 1, 2007, at

8:48 PM, mike Bowser wrote:> Zev,>> Maybe this is what is really the mai and we

are simply starting to> access it. It might not be a necessity although I happen

to think it> will make our profession more accepted and may lead to better>

clinical outcomes when we understand it more completely. There> are many

graduates from different schools that for one reason or> another have never

really accepted the classical ideas of the mai> and most likely will not until

someone can show it to them. In other> words, we may continue to be a fragmented

profession over this> simple and fundamental issue much like the chiropractors

on> subluxation. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac>> >

Chinese Medicine:zrosenbe > te:

Tue, 1 May 2007 11:40:22 -0700Re: Bonghan Ducts > revisited>> I

have to agree with Phil. Although the article was very > interesting to read, I

still cannot understand the need for a > physical model to explain acupuncture

channels. In my opinion, a > much better model is an informational model, such

as the one > developed by Dr. Yoshio Manaka and explained in his book, " Chasing

> the Dragon's Tail " (Paradigm Press). Basically, he sees the body > and its

physiological structures as 'hardware', and the channel > system as 'software'.

They are not dependent on structures, but on > systematic relationships of

interactions of body systems. They are > the built-in 'intelligence' of the

body.On May 1, > 2007, at 5:41 AM, wrote:>> Phil's

comment: Based on the > data in the article, we are a light-years> [pardon the

pun!] away > from confirming the existence of an > integrated 3-D> network of >

Channels that corresponds anatomically or functionally > with the> > classical

Jingluo system.[Non-text portions of this messa>

________> Discover the new

Windows Vista>

http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en-US & form=QBRE>>

May 2, 2007

The problem with this concept is that it seems to be applying 19th

century biological science to what is probably a late-20th century

physics problem. I am positive acupuncture can be explained without

resorting to the supernatural. I am quite hopeful that physics will

lend a hand in identifying what, if anything, the channels are

composed of. I personally like the hypothesis that the channel system

is a web of standing EM waves which interact with each other and form

" nodes " at the points. The whole body, of course, also has inputs, but

the effects are much stronger at these superpositions (not

superstitions! . This couls also explain nonlocal effects, since the

effects of stimulating a point could have a nonlinear effect on the

system, and create a change in the waves at many different areas.

Anyway, a lot more interesting than a bunch of tubes.

-Ben Hawes, L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Mike,

> I don't mean to sound harsh, but I feel no need to cater to an

> intellectual fashion, i.e. scientism, to try to explain the channels

> in a way that they are probably not intended to be. By this I mean

> the generations of physicians who worked with Chinese medical

> principles in an effective manner. I don't think that we have to

> have a physiological basis for every concept in medicine. Perhaps at

> some point an informational, systems theory model will become

> widespread enough that channel theory will be understood beyond the

> limitations of what is conventional 'wisdom' at this point.

>

> On May 1, 2007, at 8:48 PM, mike Bowser wrote:

>

> > Zev,

> >

> > Maybe this is what is really the mai and we are simply starting to

> > access it. It might not be a necessity although I happen to think it

> > will make our profession more accepted and may lead to better

> > clinical outcomes when we understand it more completely. There

> > are many graduates from different schools that for one reason or

> > another have never really accepted the classical ideas of the mai

> > and most likely will not until someone can show it to them. In other

> > words, we may continue to be a fragmented profession over this

> > simple and fundamental issue much like the chiropractors on

> > subluxation. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> >

> > To:

> > Chinese Medicine:zrosenbe

> > te: Tue, 1 May:40:22 -0700Re: Bonghan Ducts

> > revisited

> >

> > I have to agree with Phil. Although the article was very

> > interesting to read, I still cannot understand the need for a

> > physical model to explain acupuncture channels. In my opinion, a

> > much better model is an informational model, such as the one

> > developed by Dr. Yoshio Manaka and explained in his book, " Chasing

> > the Dragon's Tail " (Paradigm Press). Basically, he sees the body

> > and its physiological structures as 'hardware', and the channel

> > system as 'software'. They are not dependent on structures, but on

> > systematic relationships of interactions of body systems. They are

> > the built-in 'intelligence' of the body.On May 1,

> > 2007, at 5:41 AM, wrote:>> Phil's comment: Based on the

> > data in the article, we are a light-years> [pardon the pun!] away

> > from confirming the existence of an > integrated 3-D> network of

> > Channels that corresponds anatomically or functionally > with the>

> > classical Jingluo system.[Non-text portions of this messa

> > ________

> > Discover the new Windows Vista

> > http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista & mkt=en-US & form=QBRE

> >

May 3, 2007

Hi Benjamin...forgive my uppityness on this topic!

How is it " probably a late-20th century physics problem " ? The implications

there are enormous. I can understand that you feel excited by these implications

and so on...however, I feel that the logic behind your statement is not firm.

Without knowing the territory it can be difficult (impossible?) to set the

borders for a map. It might be more accurate to say that mechanistic biology

impinges upon the " problem " . It might also be mroe accurate to say that

late-20th century physics impinges upon the " problem " . To place the problem of

" what " the jingluo are largely under the umbrella of " late-20th century physics "

is a little rash. Whether tubes are more interesting than standing waves,

interference patterns, etc, is largely irrelevant, though I am also more

interested by the physics ramifications than I am by a pseudo-lymphatic network.

In our late-20th century it is very easy to forget that CM is largely about the

Tao...we musn't lose sight of that and become technicians. For a western

psychoanalytical presentation on this problem of " people vs physicality " please

refer to the following article:

http://tinyurl.com/38su7g

Thanks for your time and patience, Benjamin and all,

Hugo

" Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac. " <bhawes

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, 2 May, 2007 12:52:32 PM

Re: Bonghan Ducts revisited