Happy Birthday America - reply to Butch's post

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/4/2004 10:26:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, jen

writes:

 

> Mind if I debate with you a little on this point? :-P

>

 

Butch loves a good debate. What he will reply I look forward to.

 

However I just wanted to say " Thank You " just for myself. I found your note

to be very interesting, thought provoking and even educational. Thank you very

much. It's nice to end this fourth (It's now 12 am) by reading such a note.

 

K

 

Cheers!

Kathleen Petrides

The Woobey Queen

Our Candles are the Cat's Meow!

http://www.fatcatcandleco.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Snip

 

> And .. as for religious beliefs .. I will mention that George Washington

> was a pious man .. normal it was for his troops to see him heading out

> to the woods to talk to his Commander and request guidance. His actions

> raised the morale of his troops .. and morale was needed at a time when

> one was lucky to have a potato for dinner and a rag to wrap one's feet.

 

 

Hiya Butch, Happy Fourth!

 

Mind if I debate with you a little on this point? :-P

 

To say Washington was a " pious man, " well, we might need to define

what " pious " is.

 

Founding Fathers, such as Washington and Jefferson, (Franklin, John

Adams and others, but for the sake of this argument we'll keep it

short,) were very much products of the time in which they lived - that

is the 18th century. The 18th century is also called the " Age of

Reason. " There's a whole lot of writing on the subject, and it would

take another hard drive to get into it all here but in summary:

 

The universe is fundamentally rational, that is, it can be understood

through the use of reason alone

 

Truth can be arrived at through empirical observation, the use of

reason, and systematic doubt

 

Human experience is the foundation of human understanding of truth;

authority is not to be preferred over experience

 

All human life, both social and individual, can be understood in the

same way the natural world can be understood; once understood, human

life, both social and individual, can be manipulated or engineered in

the same way the natural world can be manipulated or engineered

 

Human history is largely a history of progress

 

Human beings can be improved through education and the development of

their rational facilities

 

Religious doctrines have no place in the understanding of the physical

and human worlds

~~

It is impossible to study and truly understand these men outside of

the context of their own time. And it would be necessary to study not

only what others have written about them, but their own writings

(public and personal correspondence.) to glean any kind of real

understanding of their personal characters.

 

In this context it is quite clear that the four men listed above, are

not Christians, but DEISTS, meaning that they believe in a Creator

God, but not a God who interfered in human affairs.

~~

Deism: (1) The belief in the existence of a God on purely rational

grounds without reliance on revelation or authority; especially in the

17th and 18th centuries. (2) The doctrine that God created the world

and its natural laws, but takes no further part in its functioning.

(Webster's New World Dictionary - Third College Edition)

~~

 

While Washington attended Church, (his own diaries show he attended

about 12 times a year) it is documented that he never did take

communion, while his wife, Mary, did.

 

And from Thomas Jefferson:

 

" Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy

addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it

was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion,

said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian

religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to

force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or

not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He

answered every article of their address particularly, except that,

which he passed over without notice "

(Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572).

 

Who was Asa Green? Chaplain to Congress during Washington's

administration.

 

A closer examination of Washington's public works reveals that he

speaks quite loosely of God, never actually saying " God " or " Jesus "

but always referring to the creator by some euphemistic term such as:

" Great Author " . (FWIW, those terms are frequently used in Deism.) Not

even in his last will and testament is there any mention of Jesus or God.

 

That Washington was observed going into the woods, we do know. To say

to what purpose he went into the woods, *we can only speculate*. To

say that Washington was pious in a CHRISTIAN context is misleading

given the copious amounts in information to the contrary. In his

personal and public correspondence, it it clear that Washington was a

Deist.

 

To imply that our country was founded on Christian values is also

misleading. Both John Locke and Thomas Paine (men who's writings

greatly influenced the FF) were inarguably Deists. Once again, we

must remember the philosophical and ideological zeitgeist of the 18th

century, which was a turning away form the era of faith and reliance

of reason.

 

Thomas Jefferson, perhaps the biggest Deist of them all, said:

 

" The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the

Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed

with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter "

(Works, Vol. iv, p. 365)

 

And from a letter to John Adams:

 

" It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his

doctrines. I am a Materialist. "

 

But this is not to imply that he in anyway opposed to the *teachings*

of Jesus? No

 

" Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I

find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the

most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, of

so much absurdity, so much untruth and imposture, as to pronounce it

impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the

same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross, restore to

him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some and the

roguery of others of his disciples "

 

But to Christianity, or ANY organized religion? Yes:

 

" I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the

world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity]

one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and

mythologies " (Letter to Dr. Woods).

 

It is apparent that he was opposed to imposing any sort of religious

doctrine on the American people:

 

" ...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus

Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a

great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the

mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and

the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.' "

 

And truly, when I read this - I feel such pride that our FF were so

generous of heart and spirit that they resisted the urge to only share

democracy with the Christians. I am sure that the Pagans, Buddhists,

New Agers, Agnostics, Muslims, Hindus and everyone else must feel that

too. Democracy is NOT just for Christians, it's in the Bill of Rights!

 

Lastly, I wanted to share this strangely prophetic quote, so relevant

to our times:

 

" I doubt whether the people of this country would suffer an execution

for heresy, or a three months' imprisonment for not comprehending the

mysteries of the Trinity. But is the spirit of the people infallible

-- a permanent reliance? Is it government? Is this the kind of

protection we receive in return for the rights we give up? Besides,

the spirit of the times may alter -- will alter. Our rulers will

become corrupt, our people careless. A single zealot may become

persecutor, and better men become his victims. " (Thomas Jefferson,

Notes on Virginia)

 

It seems that Jefferson was attempting to prepare for a day when

religious zealotry would creep back into government, after he and

others strove so diligently to keep it out.

 

I think if ANYONE is spinning in their graves these days - it is

surely Mr Jefferson.

 

>> Religious conviction is a good thing methinks .. if not badly

>>displaced. Better it is to follow a leader who needs spiritual

>>guidance than it is to follow one who thinks they they have all the

>>answers .. but really have NONE!

 

To debate your final your point that our leaders should be men of

religion, I would put forth the argument that our Founding Fathers,

who were so essential to the construction of Freedom and Democracy,

were NOT great men of Christian Religion. Nor did they believe that

religion had a place in Government:

 

" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of

speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to

assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

(Article I, Bill of Rights)

 

In fact they felt so strongly against religion in government that they

made it the first subject in the Bill of Rights.

 

I can say with certainty that John Locke and Thomas Paine (who's

writing greatly influenced the drafting of the Constitution) would

vehemently oppose your statement above.

 

Personally, I disagree because I feel a leader who questions and

examines situations before acting, rather than assuming he has all the

answers and is reactionary, is a good thing. But that's just MHO.

 

Anyway, thanks for inspiring me to spend part of my holiday with my

nose in the writings of these incredible men. I can think of no

better way to cherish our freedom than to remember it's roots.

 

And a Happy Fourth to you all!

 

Respectfully exercising her right to dissent, ;-P

 

JenB

[Guest guest]

Hi JenB

 

WOW!

 

Thank you for sharing that with us:-))

 

> Mind if I debate with you a little on this point? :-P

>

> To say Washington was a " pious man, " well, we might need to define

> what " pious " is.

 

You've put a great deal of effort into this post so I hope you managed to

enjoy at least some of your holiday!

 

It sure puts a different spin on what many people would have us believe:-))

 

Vicki (thankful that there are dissenters in our midst)

 

PS I saw a fabulous program last week about anti nuclear campaigner and

author, Dr Helen Caldicott. There was a brief interview with Martin Sheen

who expressed the sentiment that he was glad that Iraquis will now have the

right to dissent, but now he wasn't so sure about his own rights to do the

same.

[Guest guest]

As a point of interest on George Washington, he was a Freemason, and did,

indeed, believe in a higher being.

 

I cannot swear to this, but I do believe that John Adams and Thomas Jefferson

were Masons, as well. I will check that out with my father later. (Right now

it's 2:00 a.m. and I think my father would most assuredly do me grievous bodily

harm if I called him. Since I don't really want to risk that, I will call him at

a later time today and check on my facts.)

 

If anyone is interested, I can get names of others in history and celebrities

who are Masons. I know for a fact that Red Skelton was a Mason, as is Ernest

Borgnine (in fact Mr. Borgnine is a 33rd degree Mason, which is a very high

honor). Also, Harry Truman was a Master Mason.

 

Barb

 

 

[Guest guest]

We can dissent, but it's getting more difficult.

And, that, IMHO, we need to protect fiercely in our country, or the

terrorists win.

To think we are the only country that has those virtues is wrong. Most

Western European countries have the same, more so right now, for they

are not feeling the heavy weight of terrorism. Betcha, Butch, that the

lines at the German embassies are as long as to the American in Turkey.

About Dr. Caldicott.

28 years ago , I first read her books. Read it, just after I found out

I was pregnant and had massive x-rays, for they assumed the pregnancy

was a tumor who turned out to be Christina.

I learned from Dr.Caldicott's book about the dangers of low level

radiation exposure to a fetus.

Soon after wards moved to northern Michigan and what I thought was the

dome of an observatory, turned out to be one of the oldest nuclear

boiling water reactors in the US..

My heart sank, what had I done, expose my baby to more radiation ?

Move again?

Got busy, studying the plant and it's records, the rules and regulations

it was governed by the NRC and before I knew it, I was an intervenor in

a spent fuel expansion process with the NRC that lasted 12 years. Tell

you, it took a good chunk out of my life and I learned more about

nuclear plants, NRC I ever wanted to know.

Was the first one to get an honest emergency planning system for areas

around nuclear plants in the US. I fought hard for 3 years, just to have

the sentence " radiation is more dangerous to children and women of

child bearing age' included in a pamphlet, that is now the standard for

emergency procedures in the US.

Since I live in a very conservative, small town, my actions where not

supported by the people.

How dare this foreign newcomer questions the almighty NRC !

They scrambled in town to find out if I had citizenship ( yes, I did) or

how otherwise to get rid of me.

Threatening phone calls where daily routine, our pet's where poisoned,

warning letters in the mailbox to leave town, axles messed with on our

cars and paperwork received from the NRC by the foot, but it would

contain many blank pages. Not blank pages that might have contained

security information, no, just simple information, that as intervenors

we where entitled to. But it would make it difficult for us to respond

in time to pertinent issues. In those days, without faxes , computers

you could not recover missing pages in days or instantly when a hearing

would be scheduled within days, where you would need the missing

information.

We where rather openly followed when we had little prayer meetings

around the plant in a neighborhood park.

Rumor in town had it that the Nazis send me and the Commies paid me..

It was not easy for my family to have such an outspoken mother and

radical. Having no last name protected my kids from some of the vicious

attacks we adults had to face daily. Hostile check out girls at the

grocery store who told us that their husband worked as security guards

at the plant and had gadgets in their shirt pockets to take radiation

away was common. Teachers who would hint that our kids could do better,

if we just would abandon our 'meddling' where, too.The plant during the

heyday of our intervention paid the employees with $2.00 cash to flood

the town, to show muscle.

My other 2 fellow intervenors got threatened with job loss, a Physician

that helped us to get records of death's , birth defects ( spina

bifida) relating to low radiation, got black balled in this community.

It was not easy.

Could I have done the same in Germany? Yes. ( Of course after Hitler:)

Was it worth it? I don't know. The plant is shut down, we made them put

in millions of Dollars in safety improvement while they where still

operating.

Is it safe now while soot down? No, the worst parts of the plant are

stored in an above storage container, with enough plutonium to built

about 32 HIroshima size bombs right there. In a container that looks so

innocent to all the tourists that flock here and do not know. Because

the plant has only marginal security now and is being dismantled (

except for the above storage container, nobody wants that waster in

their backyard) I shutter to think about what terrorist could do to

our Great Lakes...Chicago, Detroit, they all have mothballed storage

close-by....And our homeland security does not cover the plants, the

NRC does..

During alert orange our valiant Sheriff sends one retired officer to the

plant to stand guard....he knows.Is anyone watching from the Lake? NO,

are their security diameter all those pleasure and fishing powerboats

have to avoid? NO

First call after 9/11 I made to the NRC's emergency guy for this area

in Chicago with the big hope that some of the security and emergency

procedures had improved since my intervention. No, they had not. Made

that call again a few weeks ago, no they had not., yes, some things

where done, but he knows and I know it's marginally at best.

Would I dissent again? You bet, even it it means in a wheelchair, old

and rather worn out.

For I truly believe that we only can keep this country as our

forefathers wanted to, by fighting hard to protect the right of free

speech, to ask questions and to be involved in the political process.

For my parents it was too late to speak out against Hitler when they saw

the writing on the wall, being sucked into a sense of nationalism ,

blind flag waving and a Dictator that came into power on the sly.

>From my friends and relatives in Germany I hear that they are still

loving Americans, but are scared of a totalitarian state developing

here, fueled by the threat of terrorism. The German State is very much

involved in the global threat of terrorism, have a large contingent in

Afghanistan and through independent organizations are doing much work

in Iraq right now to help the innocents of the war. Huge supplies of

medical equipment and medication are donated to the hospitals right now,

while the US machine still lacks in their overworked infrastructure to

get it there.

I understand this post is long and off track, but like Butch, I had

to speak my peace.

BTW, we respect each other greatly, often agreeing to disagree. and

that's what it is all about.

Yesterday, I waved the flag, had a hot dog, corn and watermelon and was

glad to call this country my home now and with that I will honor the

pledge to defend this country's Constitution and land , as I promised

when I became a citizen. To me that does not mean to blindly follow the

leader out of a sense of nationalistic pride, to not let things slide

into laws that cut's our freedom to speak out more and more..

C-M

 

" Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders

of the country who determine the polic, and it's always a simple matter

to drag the people along whether it's democracy, a fascist dictatorship,

or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. voice or no voice, the

people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is

easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and

denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country

to greater danger. "

Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials.

 

"