Guest guest Posted May 6, 2010 Report Share Posted May 6, 2010 Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms and the weather, of have you noticed a connection between the weather and patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? Ashley Brammah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2010 Report Share Posted May 6, 2010 All the time. It is an accepted principle in Chinese medicine that changes in weather can correlate with the development of specific symptoms in patients. Explaining this would require a very in-depth discussion. .. . it is a central theme of such texts as the Shang Han Lun/Treatise on Cold Damage and Wen Bing xue/Warm Disease theory. In warm disease theory, there is the concept of seasonal diseases that appear at specific times of year or with changes in weather, such as wind warmth, spring warmth, summerheat damp, or autumn dryness. .. On May 6, 2010, at 5:09 PM, crawshawbrammah wrote: > Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms and the weather, of have you noticed a connection between the weather and patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? > > Ashley Brammah > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2010 Report Share Posted May 7, 2010 Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms and the weather, of have you noticed a connection between the weather and patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? Ashley Brammah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2010 Report Share Posted May 7, 2010 Hello, Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms and the weather, or have you noticed a connection between the weather and patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? Ashley Brammah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2010 Report Share Posted May 7, 2010 These patients have a combination of Wind-Damp Bi, Wind-Cold Bi, Wind Bi, Wind-Cold-Damp etc. It their tongue and pulse fit, these patients respond amazingly quickly to moxa or moxa on the needle. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine crawshawbrammah Fri, 7 May 2010 15:23:29 +0000 Re: the weather Hello, Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms and the weather, or have you noticed a connection between the weather and patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? Ashley Brammah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2010 Report Share Posted May 7, 2010 Yes such painful obstruction (bi) patients often do have a relationship with the weather, but as Z'ev pointed out there are many many patterns that have influence with the climate / weather. Warm disease theory probably offers the most extensive discussions on this topic. Dryness, damp, heat, cold, etc can all have an effect. The first thing to note is what kind of weather changes affect the patient and note what constitution they have. See how these elements interact. For example, one might always get migraines when the weather becomes more dry. Some always get migraines when it becomes hot. I integrate this thinking on a daily basis in my practice and many times can predict how the patient will present based on current weather patterns. As Z'ev there are very many permutations, but extremely helpful in the clinic. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Donald Snow Friday, May 07, 2010 9:55 AM TCM group RE: Re: the weather These patients have a combination of Wind-Damp Bi, Wind-Cold Bi, Wind Bi, Wind-Cold-Damp etc. It their tongue and pulse fit, these patients respond amazingly quickly to moxa or moxa on the needle. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine crawshawbrammah Fri, 7 May 2010 15:23:29 +0000 Re: the weather Hello, Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms and the weather, or have you noticed a connection between the weather and patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? Ashley Brammah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2010 Report Share Posted May 7, 2010 Changes in weather (between rain and sunshine, cold and warm etc) have a huge effect on people's ability or inability to endure the changes from outside / inside Would you consider this a wei qi issue? It is said that people get sick during the 18 days between seasons. This is considered earth time. Then, there's the Nei jing passages which relate how a problem in the preceding season will follow into the next season. K On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 10:34 AM, < > wrote: > > > Yes such painful obstruction (bi) patients often do have a relationship > with > the weather, but as Z'ev pointed out there are many many patterns that have > influence with the climate / weather. Warm disease theory probably offers > the most extensive discussions on this topic. Dryness, damp, heat, cold, > etc > can all have an effect. > > The first thing to note is what kind of weather changes affect the patient > and note what constitution they have. See how these elements interact. For > example, one might always get migraines when the weather becomes more dry. > Some always get migraines when it becomes hot. I integrate this thinking on > a daily basis in my practice and many times can predict how the patient > will > present based on current weather patterns. As Z'ev there are very many > permutations, but extremely helpful in the clinic. > > -Jason > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>] > On Behalf Of Donald > Snow > Friday, May 07, 2010 9:55 AM > TCM group > RE: Re: the weather > > These patients have a combination of Wind-Damp Bi, Wind-Cold Bi, Wind Bi, > Wind-Cold-Damp etc. It their tongue and pulse fit, these patients respond > amazingly quickly to moxa or moxa on the needle. > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > crawshawbrammah <crawshawbrammah%40hotmail.com> > Fri, 7 May 2010 15:23:29 +0000 > Re: the weather > > Hello, > > Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms and > the weather, or have you noticed a connection between the weather and > patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? > > Ashley Brammah > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2010 Report Share Posted May 8, 2010 Dear Mr Rosenberg, thank you for your reply. I'd like to use some Chinese characters for clarity if that's okay? In the UK there seems to be confusion about what the weather is in terms of & #30149; & #22240;. Of the & #22806; & #24863; the & #20845; & #28139; I've seen described as a collective term for untimely climatic influences. I've seen it translated as the six evils, six pathogens, six abnormal climatic changes. However, isn't there a difference between & #39118; and & #39118; & #37034; , & #23506; and & #23506; & #37034;, & #26257; and & #26257; & #37034; , & #28287; and & #28287; & #37034;, & #29157; and & #29157; & #37034; , & #28779; and & #28779; & #37034;, & #28909; and & #28909; & #37034;? Normally & #39118;, & #23506; and & #28287; etc aren't harmful and thus not pathogenic or & #37034;. And as the theory goes it is only an untimely appearance or when in abundance that they become harmful. However, in the UK when I talk to my colleagues it seems that they conceptualise & #39118; , & #23506; & #26257; & #28287; & #29157; & #28779; & #28909; as & #39118; & #37034; etc. This lack of clarity or insecurity with theory and terminology seems to have an effect on how we diagnose and which formulas we apply. I'm interested in how other people think about the differences between the weather/climate and the & #22806; & #24863; & #20845; & #28139;, are they the same? Also, if we are talking about the & #20845; & #28139; how do you conceive of what happens when they meet the human body, I have an expectation that the response is heterogeneous? Within medical anthropology there are commonly held cross cultural folk and lay beliefs surrounding the interaction of the for want of a better word 'weather' and illness. (I can supply interesting examples and the references for this discourse if you are interested?) I wonder, when patients present with a condition they attribute to the 'weather' if they, and we, as Chinese medicine practitioners are actually talking about the same thing? I'm not looking for the essentialist 'answer' rather the range of opinions, a dialogue perhaps? Kindest regards, Ashley Brammah , <zrosenbe wrote: > > All the time. It is an accepted principle in Chinese medicine that changes in weather can correlate with the development of specific symptoms in patients. Explaining this would require a very in-depth discussion. .. . it is a central theme of such texts as the Shang Han Lun/Treatise on Cold Damage and Wen Bing xue/Warm Disease theory. In warm disease theory, there is the concept of seasonal diseases that appear at specific times of year or with changes in weather, such as wind warmth, spring warmth, summerheat damp, or autumn dryness. .. > > > > > On May 6, 2010, at 5:09 PM, crawshawbrammah wrote: > > > Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms and the weather, of have you noticed a connection between the weather and patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? > > > > Ashley Brammah > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2010 Report Share Posted May 8, 2010 When qi moves outside there is weather, when qi moves inside there are thoughts, feelings, and sensation. In reality there is no " inside " and " outside " . These movements of qi are impersonal and both can condition the self sense. The point of the highest medicine is to liberate the self sense from both movements so that it is at once autonomous (free of conditioning to whatever extent is possible) and engaged in generating creatively in the world (as opposed to merely expressing conditioning). Just some ideas: Damp= inertia, needy Wind= confusion, rumors Cold= fear/contraction Heat= desire/expansion (spacey, not good expansion) Dryness= Loss/grief (I gambled and lost) Fire= Intense desire/mania/unfullfilled desire (denial or habitual indulgence) We are never victims. The presence of these pathogens tend to influence us in these ways but consciousness is always potentially free to make another choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2010 Report Share Posted May 8, 2010 These are great things to think about and reminds us that the medicine was created in a time when the sun lit the room, not electric lamps and when we collected drinking water from rain, springs and wells. I was thinking that it could be a worthwhile project to chart regional health trends... ie. Berkeley CA.... a few weeks in March many people starting coming in waking up at 3am. This phenomenon lasted a couple of weeks and then ended. These people didn't experience this for the whole year, couldn't remember if this happened before. My hypothesis is that the rising yang Qi of the spring-time accounted for patients waking up at the end of the Liver hours at the time of yang within yin. Again, this last month, we've seen a higher incidence of allergies, since allergens are like mushrooms popping up after the rains, when the sun comes out. The last week, a lot of people have mentioned feeling much more sleepy, wanting to sleep deep and long. I'm trying to figure this one out according to what's happening in the environment and group psyche. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with May day.... Has anyone else seen these kinds of trends lately? When we see patterns and things that seem to happen out of the ordinary, we've got to wonder if it's just a natural occurrence and if it's actually just the flow of solar radiation, the earth and moon's gravitational pull and our place in the universe. Isn't the Nei jing, the Chinese version of the Farmer's Almanac? K On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 4:21 AM, Lonny <Revolution wrote: > > > When qi moves outside there is weather, when qi moves inside there are > thoughts, feelings, and sensation. In reality there is no " inside " and > " outside " . These movements of qi are impersonal and both can condition the > self sense. The point of the highest medicine is to liberate the self sense > from both movements so that it is at once autonomous (free of conditioning > to whatever extent is possible) and engaged in generating creatively in the > world (as opposed to merely expressing conditioning). > > Just some ideas: > > Damp= inertia, needy > Wind= confusion, rumors > Cold= fear/contraction > Heat= desire/expansion (spacey, not good expansion) > Dryness= Loss/grief (I gambled and lost) > Fire= Intense desire/mania/unfullfilled desire (denial or habitual > indulgence) > > We are never victims. The presence of these pathogens tend to influence us > in these ways but consciousness is always potentially free to make another > choice. > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2010 Report Share Posted May 8, 2010 Ashley, This sounds like an interesting topic, however I cannot read your characters. Can others? -Jason On Behalf Of crawshawbrammah Saturday, May 08, 2010 3:53 AM Re: the weather Dear Mr Rosenberg, thank you for your reply. I'd like to use some Chinese characters for clarity if that's okay? In the UK there seems to be confusion about what the weather is in terms of & #30149; & #22240;. Of the & #22806; & #24863; the & #20845; & #28139; I've seen described as a collective term for untimely climatic influences. I've seen it translated as the six evils, six pathogens, six abnormal climatic changes. However, isn't there a difference between & #39118; and & #39118; & #37034; , & #23506; and & #23506; & #37034;, & #26257; and & #26257; & #37034; , & #28287; and & #28287; & #37034;, & #29157; and & #29157; & #37034; , & #28779; and & #28779; & #37034;, & #28909; and & #28909; & #37034;? Normally & #39118;, & #23506; and & #28287; etc aren't harmful and thus not pathogenic or & #37034;. And as the theory goes it is only an untimely appearance or when in abundance that they become harmful. However, in the UK when I talk to my colleagues it seems that they conceptualise & #39118; , & #23506; & #26257; & #28287; & #29157; & #28779; & #28909; as & #39118; & #37034; etc. This lack of clarity or insecurity with theory and terminology seems to have an effect on how we diagnose and which formulas we apply. I'm interested in how other people think about the differences between the weather/climate and the & #22806; & #24863; & #20845; & #28139;, are they the same? Also, if we are talking about the & #20845; & #28139; how do you conceive of what happens when they meet the human body, I have an expectation that the response is heterogeneous? Within medical anthropology there are commonly held cross cultural folk and lay beliefs surrounding the interaction of the for want of a better word 'weather' and illness. (I can supply interesting examples and the references for this discourse if you are interested?) I wonder, when patients present with a condition they attribute to the 'weather' if they, and we, as Chinese medicine practitioners are actually talking about the same thing? I'm not looking for the essentialist 'answer' rather the range of opinions, a dialogue perhaps? Kindest regards, Ashley Brammah <%40> , <zrosenbe wrote: > > All the time. It is an accepted principle in Chinese medicine that changes in weather can correlate with the development of specific symptoms in patients. Explaining this would require a very in-depth discussion. .. . it is a central theme of such texts as the Shang Han Lun/Treatise on Cold Damage and Wen Bing xue/Warm Disease theory. In warm disease theory, there is the concept of seasonal diseases that appear at specific times of year or with changes in weather, such as wind warmth, spring warmth, summerheat damp, or autumn dryness. . > > > > > On May 6, 2010, at 5:09 PM, crawshawbrammah wrote: > > > Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms and the weather, of have you noticed a connection between the weather and patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? > > > > Ashley Brammah > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2010 Report Share Posted May 8, 2010 nope. Can't even SEE 'em. :-) And might I suggest that even w/ seeable characters, it would be a magnitude better and more educational to also have the pinyin included (for us first graders). > > > > This sounds like an interesting topic, however I cannot read your > characters. Can others? > > -Jason > > > On Behalf Of crawshawbrammah > Saturday, May 08, 2010 3:53 AM > > Re: the weather > > Dear Mr Rosenberg, > > thank you for your reply. > > I'd like to use some Chinese characters for clarity if that's okay? > > In the UK there seems to be confusion about what the weather is in terms of > & #30149; & #22240;. Of the & #22806; & #24863; the & #20845; & #28139; I've seen > described as a collective term for untimely climatic influences. I've seen > it translated as the six evils, six pathogens, six abnormal climatic > changes. However, isn't there a difference between & #39118; and > & #39118; & #37034; , & #23506; and & #23506; & #37034;, & #26257; > and & #26257; & #37034; , & #28287; and & #28287; & #37034;, & #29157; and > & #29157; & #37034; , & #28779; and & #28779; & #37034;, & #28909; and > & #28909; & #37034;? > > Normally & #39118;, & #23506; and & #28287; etc aren't harmful and thus not > pathogenic or & #37034;. And as the theory goes it is only an untimely > appearance or when in abundance that they become harmful. However, in the UK > when I talk to my colleagues it seems that they conceptualise & #39118; , > & #23506; & #26257; & #28287; & #29157; & #28779; & #28909; as & #39118; & #37034; > etc. This lack of clarity or insecurity with > theory and terminology seems to have an effect on how we diagnose and which > formulas we apply. > > I'm interested in how other people think about the differences between the > weather/climate and the & #22806; & #24863; & #20845; & #28139;, are they the > same? Also, if we are talking about the & #20845; & #28139; how do you conceive > of what happens when they meet the human body, I have an expectation that > the response is heterogeneous? > > Within medical anthropology there are commonly held cross cultural folk and > lay beliefs surrounding the interaction of the for want of a better word > 'weather' and illness. (I can supply interesting examples and the references > for this discourse if you are interested?) I wonder, when patients present > with a condition they attribute to the 'weather' if they, and we, as Chinese > medicine practitioners are actually talking about the same thing? I'm not > looking for the essentialist 'answer' rather the range of opinions, a > dialogue perhaps? > > Kindest regards, > > Ashley Brammah > > > <%40> , > <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > All the time. It is an accepted principle in Chinese medicine that changes > in weather can correlate with the development of specific symptoms in > patients. Explaining this would require a very in-depth discussion. .. . it > is a central theme of such texts as the Shang Han Lun/Treatise on Cold > Damage and Wen Bing xue/Warm Disease theory. In warm disease theory, there > is the concept of seasonal diseases that appear at specific times of year or > with changes in weather, such as wind warmth, spring warmth, summerheat > damp, or autumn dryness. . > > > > > > > > > > On May 6, 2010, at 5:09 PM, crawshawbrammah wrote: > > > > > Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms > and the weather, of have you noticed a connection between the weather and > patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? > > > > > > Ashley Brammah > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2010 Report Share Posted May 9, 2010 I'd love to respond, but I guess I'll have to wait until you resubmit with the characters or translation. . Z'ev On May 8, 2010, at 2:52 AM, crawshawbrammah wrote: > Dear Mr Rosenberg, > > thank you for your reply. > > I'd like to use some Chinese characters for clarity if that's okay? > > In the UK there seems to be confusion about what the weather is in terms of & #30149; & #22240;. Of the & #22806; & #24863; the & #20845; & #28139; I've seen described as a collective term for untimely climatic influences. I've seen it translated as the six evils, six pathogens, six abnormal climatic changes. However, isn't there a difference between & #39118; and & #39118; & #37034; , & #23506; and & #23506; & #37034;, & #26257; and & #26257; & #37034; , & #28287; and & #28287; & #37034;, & #29157; and & #29157; & #37034; , & #28779; and & #28779; & #37034;, & #28909; and & #28909; & #37034;? > > Normally & #39118;, & #23506; and & #28287; etc aren't harmful and thus not pathogenic or & #37034;. And as the theory goes it is only an untimely appearance or when in abundance that they become harmful. However, in the UK when I talk to my colleagues it seems that they conceptualise & #39118; , & #23506; & #26257; & #28287; & #29157; & #28779; & #28909; as & #39118; & #37034; etc. This lack of clarity or insecurity with > theory and terminology seems to have an effect on how we diagnose and which formulas we apply. > > I'm interested in how other people think about the differences between the weather/climate and the & #22806; & #24863; & #20845; & #28139;, are they the same? Also, if we are talking about the & #20845; & #28139; how do you conceive of what happens when they meet the human body, I have an expectation that the response is heterogeneous? > > Within medical anthropology there are commonly held cross cultural folk and lay beliefs surrounding the interaction of the for want of a better word 'weather' and illness. (I can supply interesting examples and the references for this discourse if you are interested?) I wonder, when patients present with a condition they attribute to the 'weather' if they, and we, as Chinese medicine practitioners are actually talking about the same thing? I'm not looking for the essentialist 'answer' rather the range of opinions, a dialogue perhaps? > > Kindest regards, > > Ashley Brammah > > , <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > All the time. It is an accepted principle in Chinese medicine that changes in weather can correlate with the development of specific symptoms in patients. Explaining this would require a very in-depth discussion. .. . it is a central theme of such texts as the Shang Han Lun/Treatise on Cold Damage and Wen Bing xue/Warm Disease theory. In warm disease theory, there is the concept of seasonal diseases that appear at specific times of year or with changes in weather, such as wind warmth, spring warmth, summerheat damp, or autumn dryness. .. > > > > > > > > > > On May 6, 2010, at 5:09 PM, crawshawbrammah wrote: > > > > > Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms and the weather, of have you noticed a connection between the weather and patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? > > > > > > Ashley Brammah > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2010 Report Share Posted May 9, 2010 Hello, Before I try again does anyone know the correct coding type to view Chinese characters in this forum, apart from posting as an attachment? I hope the choice of translation is acceptable. By way of introduction, in the UK there seems to be confusion about what `the weather' is in terms of a cause of disease - bing yin. Of the external causes of disease, the six excesses or liu yin, are commonly attributed to untimely climactic influences. However, isn't there a difference between wind and pathogenic wind (wind evil) feng xie, cold and pathogenic cold han xie etc. Normally, wind, cold, damp. dry etc aren't considered harmful and thus are not pathogenic or xie, I have seen it expressed that it is only an untimely appearance or when in abundance that they become harmful? In on-line conversation regarding this topic one person expressed the opinion that " The 6 qi (wind, cold, damp, fire, dry, summerheat) are natural and normal when average strength and in their own seasons. We need them and they are good " and similarly drew a distinction between normal and pathogenic weather. interestingly they used the term 'weather' within that context. However, when I talk to colleagues in the UK it seems that they often conceptualise all weather as evil – xie and retroactively or post hoc associate any `stiff neck' as proof of, for example feng xie. What I'm interested in is – How other people think about what `the weather' or the six evils are (are they even synonymous?)? Everybody talks about it/them, clinicians and patients, but I wonder if we are even talking about the same thing? The way patients and practitioners understand how the six evils `cause' disease? This idea of causation seems to be contested knowledge within the Chinese medicine community. What is this interaction between the six excesses and the body? As I mentioned previously, I'm not looking for an essential `answer', (there will be different currents of thought) rather the range of opinion. Kindest Regards, Ashley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2010 Report Share Posted May 9, 2010 Normal climatic influences can be pathogenic when a person's qi is weak. They won't affect a person who has strong zheng qi and wei qi. - Bill , " crawshawbrammah " <crawshawbrammah wrote: > > Hello, > > Before I try again does anyone know the correct coding type to view Chinese characters in this forum, apart from posting as an attachment? I hope the choice of translation is acceptable. > > By way of introduction, in the UK there seems to be confusion about what `the weather' is in terms of a cause of disease - bing yin. Of the external causes of disease, the six excesses or liu yin, are commonly attributed to untimely climactic influences. However, isn't there a difference between wind and pathogenic wind (wind evil) feng xie, cold and pathogenic cold han xie etc. Normally, wind, cold, damp. dry etc aren't considered harmful and thus are not pathogenic or xie, I have seen it expressed that it is only an untimely appearance or when in abundance that they become harmful? > > In on-line conversation regarding this topic one person expressed the opinion that " The 6 qi (wind, cold, damp, fire, dry, summerheat) are natural and normal when average strength and in their own seasons. We need them and they are good " > > and similarly drew a distinction between normal and pathogenic weather. interestingly they used the term 'weather' within that context. > > However, when I talk to colleagues in the UK it seems that they often conceptualise all weather as evil – xie and retroactively or post hoc associate any `stiff neck' as proof of, for example feng xie. > > What I'm interested in is – > > How other people think about what `the weather' or the six evils are (are they even synonymous?)? Everybody talks about it/them, clinicians and patients, but I wonder if we are even talking about the same thing? > > The way patients and practitioners understand how the six evils `cause' disease? This idea of causation seems to be contested knowledge within the Chinese medicine community. > > What is this interaction between the six excesses and the body? > > > As I mentioned previously, I'm not looking for an essential `answer', (there will be different currents of thought) rather the range of opinion. > > Kindest Regards, > > Ashley > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2010 Report Share Posted May 9, 2010 It seems as though illness arises when we can't transition with the changes in the weather, just like not being able to deal with the changes in life (stress). Going with the Dao, flow is like floating down the river and not trying to fight the waves. K On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:19 PM, bill_schoenbart <plantmed2 wrote: > > > Normal climatic influences can be pathogenic when a person's qi is weak. > They won't affect a person who has strong zheng qi and wei qi. > > - Bill > > > --- In <%40>, > " crawshawbrammah " <crawshawbrammah wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > Before I try again does anyone know the correct coding type to view > Chinese characters in this forum, apart from posting as an attachment? I > hope the choice of translation is acceptable. > > > > By way of introduction, in the UK there seems to be confusion about what > `the weather' is in terms of a cause of disease - bing yin. Of the external > causes of disease, the six excesses or liu yin, are commonly attributed to > untimely climactic influences. However, isn't there a difference between > wind and pathogenic wind (wind evil) feng xie, cold and pathogenic cold han > xie etc. Normally, wind, cold, damp. dry etc aren't considered harmful and > thus are not pathogenic or xie, I have seen it expressed that it is only an > untimely appearance or when in abundance that they become harmful? > > > > In on-line conversation regarding this topic one person expressed the > opinion that " The 6 qi (wind, cold, damp, fire, dry, summerheat) are natural > and normal when average strength and in their own seasons. We need them and > they are good " > > > > and similarly drew a distinction between normal and pathogenic weather. > interestingly they used the term 'weather' within that context. > > > > However, when I talk to colleagues in the UK it seems that they often > conceptualise all weather as evil – xie and retroactively or post hoc > associate any `stiff neck' as proof of, for example feng xie. > > > > What I'm interested in is – > > > > How other people think about what `the weather' or the six evils are (are > they even synonymous?)? Everybody talks about it/them, clinicians and > patients, but I wonder if we are even talking about the same thing? > > > > The way patients and practitioners understand how the six evils `cause' > disease? This idea of causation seems to be contested knowledge within the > Chinese medicine community. > > > > What is this interaction between the six excesses and the body? > > > > > > As I mentioned previously, I'm not looking for an essential `answer', > (there will be different currents of thought) rather the range of opinion. > > > > Kindest Regards, > > > > Ashley > > > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 Hi Ashley, Pinyin is much easier than dealing with the encoding problem. When you combine Pinyin and English, the characters are abundantly clear to anyone who cares about them. For example, when you say " feng xie " (wind evil) and " liu yin " (six excesses), you are combining English with standard terminology from Wiseman's Practical Dictionary. Everyone who reads both Chinese and English instantly knows what you are talking about and the conversation remains accessible to people that don't read Chinese. The internet as a whole tends to get sticky when it comes to displaying Chinese characters correctly, and the are no exception (no attachments get through to the group either). For example, in your last post I couldn't see the characters despite trying every encoding choice on Firefox, even with a computer in China that was running Chinese Windows. Rather than having multiple followup posts trying to figure out encoding, the simple combination of Pinyin and English works for 99% of the issues that we might discuss here (unless it is a long quote or a word that is particular prone to problems due to the same pinyin but different characters). Even a nuanced meaning can be expressed with the most simplistic translation for the sake of conveying the proper characters. For example, my Chinese name is Bai Xiao Long ( & #30333; & #25928; & #40845;). If I say Bai (white) Xiao (effective) Long (dragon), anyone that reads Chinese would know which Bai, which Xiao, and which Long we are talking about. Of course, in real life the meaning of my name is more nuanced, basically it means " Mr. Brand (Mr. White) respectfully emulates the dragon, " or you could say " white guy that respectfully emulates the dragon " ; in this context, Xiao is used with the meaning of Xiao Fa (to respectfully emulate) rather than Xiao Guo (efficacy), but the character is the same so saying White Effective Dragon instantly translates back to Bai Xiao Long with the correct characters in Chinese. Anything in Chinese can be easily expressed this way, a bicycle is a Zi Xing Che (self-moving vehicle), the TCM disease called Bai Tou Wen could be rendered as " big head warmth " or " massive head scourge, " anyone that knows the subject knows what you mean. A " Huo Che " (fire car) is of course correctly translated as a train, but no matter how ridiculous a literal translation sounds it can convey the right characters to anyone that knows Chinese without messing around with all the encoding problems. As for your question, with the Pinyin and Wiseman terminology it is totally clear what you are talking about. I wouldn't claim to be an authority on this subject, but basically wind, dampness, cold, etc. are all natural qualities in nature. When we talk about the Liu Yin (six excesses) as a cause of disease, we are talking about these natural climactic factors being rather extreme. Wind, summerheat, cold, etc are not inherently " good " things but the body has no negative response to them unless they are relatively extreme relative to the capacity of one's constitution. In other words, nature's natural forces aren't inherently bad, but they can be too powerful at times. Powerful forces of nature (dampness, dryness, heat, summerheat, cold, and wind) can overwhelm the body can become a cause of disease. If there is no disease, the body and its environment are in a state of relative balance. If this balance is thrown off, there is disease. In other words, cold, heat, etc are not inherently evil, they are just the natural yin/yang forces of nature. Nature is not inherently " evil " (xie). If there is disease caused by cold, then we call that cold evil. If it is cold but the person is healthy, it is still cold out but we wouldn't diagnose the person as suffering from cold evil. Evil (xie) implies that the system is out of balance and a disease process is involved. Without weather, there would be no life. But sometimes the weather gets a little out of hand or the person's constitution can't handle it. My two cents, Eric Brand , " crawshawbrammah " <crawshawbrammah wrote: > > Hello, > > Before I try again does anyone know the correct coding type to view Chinese characters in this forum, apart from posting as an attachment? I hope the choice of translation is acceptable. > > By way of introduction, in the UK there seems to be confusion about what `the weather' is in terms of a cause of disease - bing yin. Of the external causes of disease, the six excesses or liu yin, are commonly attributed to untimely climactic influences. However, isn't there a difference between wind and pathogenic wind (wind evil) feng xie, cold and pathogenic cold han xie etc. Normally, wind, cold, damp. dry etc aren't considered harmful and thus are not pathogenic or xie, I have seen it expressed that it is only an untimely appearance or when in abundance that they become harmful? > > In on-line conversation regarding this topic one person expressed the opinion that " The 6 qi (wind, cold, damp, fire, dry, summerheat) are natural and normal when average strength and in their own seasons. We need them and they are good " > > and similarly drew a distinction between normal and pathogenic weather. interestingly they used the term 'weather' within that context. > > However, when I talk to colleagues in the UK it seems that they often conceptualise all weather as evil – xie and retroactively or post hoc associate any `stiff neck' as proof of, for example feng xie. > > What I'm interested in is – > > How other people think about what `the weather' or the six evils are (are they even synonymous?)? Everybody talks about it/them, clinicians and patients, but I wonder if we are even talking about the same thing? > > The way patients and practitioners understand how the six evils `cause' disease? This idea of causation seems to be contested knowledge within the Chinese medicine community. > > What is this interaction between the six excesses and the body? > > > As I mentioned previously, I'm not looking for an essential `answer', (there will be different currents of thought) rather the range of opinion. > > Kindest Regards, > > Ashley > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 Hi Eric, thanks for your detailed description of the translation problem , I'll adopt your advice in the future. In thinking about what you've said and have a few questions. I have interjected them in bold into your reply, I hope this will make the process easier to follow? I wouldn't claim to be an authority on this subject, but basically wind, dampness, cold, etc. are all natural qualities in nature. What people refer to as the 6 qi? When we talk about the Liu Yin (six excesses) as a cause of disease, we are talking about these natural climactic factors being rather extreme. Wind, summerheat, cold, etc are not inherently " good " things but the body has no negative response there is a response, we feel the heat, cold, drafts etc? to them unless they are relatively extreme relative to the capacity of one's constitution. There is an interrelationship between the 6 qi the liu yin and the individual. What aspects of one's constitution are related to the liu yin? In other words, nature's natural forces aren't inherently bad, but they can be too powerful at times. Powerful forces of nature (dampness, dryness, heat, summerheat, cold, and wind) can overwhelm the body can become a cause of disease. When you say 'a cause of disease' I would like to make an academic distinction between illness and disease. Illness meaning the subjective symptomatic experience of the patient and disease as the conceptualised pattern of symptoms recognised by a medical expert - Chinese clinician, Biomedical Doctor, shaman etc. Drapetomania is a wonderful example of how two groups of people might consider a group of symptoms from diametrical positions. So I'm suggesting that if disease is a cultural construct, from what perspective are you suggesting that the 'powerful forces of nature (dampness, dryness, heat, summerheat, cold, and wind) can overwhelm the body can become a cause of disease' When you say 'cause' do you mean causative? Feng xie is causative of a specific condition or symptom that Chinese physicians would describe as a disease? How do these forces 'overwhelm the body' ? What do you think actually happens when people have symptoms they associate with the Liu Yin and Chinese Physicians attribute a disease to the Liu Yin, what is the process by which the symptoms arise? Kindest Regards, Ashley If there is no disease, the body and its environment are in a state of relative balance. If this balance is thrown off, there is disease. In other words, cold, heat, etc are not inherently evil, they are just the natural yin/yang forces of nature. Nature is not inherently " evil " (xie). If there is disease caused by cold, then we call that cold evil. If it is cold but the person is healthy, it is still cold out but we wouldn't diagnose the person as suffering from cold evil. Evil (xie) implies that the system is out of balance and a disease process is involved. > > Without weather, there would be no life. But sometimes the weather gets a little out of hand or the person's constitution can't handle it. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 An interesting connection of bi syndromes and digestion can be found in an article on Leaky Gut by Jake Fratkin, wherein, he mentions how poor digestion can lead to influx of undigested proteins that can influence joint spaces. You can find the article at his website. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine Fri, 7 May 2010 11:34:44 -0600 RE: Re: the weather Yes such painful obstruction (bi) patients often do have a relationship with the weather, but as Z'ev pointed out there are many many patterns that have influence with the climate / weather. Warm disease theory probably offers the most extensive discussions on this topic. Dryness, damp, heat, cold, etc can all have an effect. The first thing to note is what kind of weather changes affect the patient and note what constitution they have. See how these elements interact. For example, one might always get migraines when the weather becomes more dry. Some always get migraines when it becomes hot. I integrate this thinking on a daily basis in my practice and many times can predict how the patient will present based on current weather patterns. As Z'ev there are very many permutations, but extremely helpful in the clinic. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Donald Snow Friday, May 07, 2010 9:55 AM TCM group RE: Re: the weather These patients have a combination of Wind-Damp Bi, Wind-Cold Bi, Wind Bi, Wind-Cold-Damp etc. It their tongue and pulse fit, these patients respond amazingly quickly to moxa or moxa on the needle. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine crawshawbrammah Fri, 7 May 2010 15:23:29 +0000 Re: the weather Hello, Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms and the weather, or have you noticed a connection between the weather and patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? Ashley Brammah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 It has been quite cool here up in the north lately following a more temperate spring. This is quite common to this area. Moxa and warm foods need to be brought back into usage as the yang qi of the body needs this. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Traditional Medicine > don83407 > Fri, 7 May 2010 10:54:39 -0500 > RE: Re: the weather > > > These patients have a combination of Wind-Damp Bi, Wind-Cold Bi, Wind Bi, Wind-Cold-Damp etc. It their tongue and pulse fit, these patients respond amazingly quickly to moxa or moxa on the needle. > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > Chinese Medicine > crawshawbrammah > Fri, 7 May 2010 15:23:29 +0000 > Re: the weather > > > > > > Hello, > > Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms and the weather, or have you noticed a connection between the weather and patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? > > Ashley Brammah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2010 Report Share Posted May 11, 2010 Ashley, can you indulge me and send your original message with all the characters? You will need to do this within a browser like safari, firefox etc... at the bottom will be a language option. Do it as simplified chinese. Doug , " crawshawbrammah " <crawshawbrammah wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2010 Report Share Posted May 11, 2010 Michael, I've seen this too. In winter, I prescribed Fu zi and Gui zhi. In the beginning of spring (March)... a lot of Chai hu based formulas The last couple of weeks, again more Shen qi wan, and blood tonics based on the weather here and the way our bodies react to the changes. Summer should be interesting. In the Bay area, we get an Indian summer. Berkeley has a mediterranean climate, so we don't see snow and not that many extremes. K On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 8:21 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote: > > > > It has been quite cool here up in the north lately following a more > temperate spring. This is quite common to this area. Moxa and warm foods > need to be brought back into usage as the yang qi of the body needs this. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > To: Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > don83407 <don83407%40msn.com> > > Fri, 7 May 2010 10:54:39 -0500 > > > RE: Re: the weather > > > > > > These patients have a combination of Wind-Damp Bi, Wind-Cold Bi, Wind Bi, > Wind-Cold-Damp etc. It their tongue and pulse fit, these patients respond > amazingly quickly to moxa or moxa on the needle. > > > > > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > > > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > crawshawbrammah <crawshawbrammah%40hotmail.com> > > Fri, 7 May 2010 15:23:29 +0000 > > Re: the weather > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms > and the weather, or have you noticed a connection between the weather and > patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? > > > > Ashley Brammah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2010 Report Share Posted May 11, 2010 Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko wrote: > > Isn't the Nei jing, the Chinese version of the Farmer's Almanac? > > K Oh! I thought it was the I Ching that was the original model for Poor Richard's Almanac... Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2010 Report Share Posted May 11, 2010 As the I jing came before the Nei jing, and Poor Richard's Almanac (1732-1758) came before the Old Farmer's Almanac (1818-) we're both right. K On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 10:14 PM, zedbowls <zaranski wrote: > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > <johnkokko wrote: > > > > > Isn't the Nei jing, the Chinese version of the Farmer's Almanac? > > > > K > > Oh! I thought it was the I Ching that was the original model for Poor > Richard's Almanac... > > Z > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2010 Report Share Posted May 11, 2010 John, I find it interesting that some classical sources say to supplement yin in the cold season and yang in the warm season. Arnaud Versluys spoke recently how he takes fu zi prescriptions in the early summertime to build yang for the winter. On May 10, 2010, at 9:37 PM, wrote: > Michael, > I've seen this too. In winter, I prescribed Fu zi and Gui zhi. > In the beginning of spring (March)... a lot of Chai hu based formulas > The last couple of weeks, again more Shen qi wan, and blood tonics > based on the weather here and the way our bodies react to the changes. > Summer should be interesting. In the Bay area, we get an Indian summer. > Berkeley has a mediterranean climate, so we don't see snow > and not that many extremes. > > K > > > > > On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 8:21 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote: > >> >> >> >> It has been quite cool here up in the north lately following a more >> temperate spring. This is quite common to this area. Moxa and warm foods >> need to be brought back into usage as the yang qi of the body needs this. >> >> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc >> >>> To: Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> >>> don83407 <don83407%40msn.com> >>> Fri, 7 May 2010 10:54:39 -0500 >> >>> RE: Re: the weather >>> >>> >>> These patients have a combination of Wind-Damp Bi, Wind-Cold Bi, Wind Bi, >> Wind-Cold-Damp etc. It their tongue and pulse fit, these patients respond >> amazingly quickly to moxa or moxa on the needle. >>> >>> >>> >>> Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. >>> >>> >>> >>> To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> >>> crawshawbrammah <crawshawbrammah%40hotmail.com> >>> Fri, 7 May 2010 15:23:29 +0000 >>> Re: the weather >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Have you noticed patients reporting a connection between their symptoms >> and the weather, or have you noticed a connection between the weather and >> patients reporting of symptoms. How do you understand this correlation? >>> >>> Ashley Brammah >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.