Guest guest Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 I happen to think that these are important questions and beg to the issues of transparency and ownership after all aren't they asking for our support?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acuprof: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 20:45:08 +0000Re: ABORM Questions David,Once again, we are in partial agreement. I also think that an open discussion is wonderful, and that your questions are fair. However, your questions are being asked within the context created by your earlier posts - namely, that you do not support the process of the ABORM and that you are against specialty boards. Within that context, these questions seem inflammatory, and serve the purpose of " whipping up " public dissent more than seeking actual information. What I am saying is that the ACTUAL answers to your questions are probably readily available if you were to direct them to officials of the organization. Because you chose to post those kinds of questions rhetorically in a public forum (where actual answers are unlikely), instead of directing them toward someone with the actual data you are asking about, it suggests to me that the purpose of asking such things was more polemic than it was earnest.Furthermore, if you (or others who so vocally oppose the ABORM) are genuinely interested in the answers to such questions, I ask again - Why not do your homework and get those questions answered BEFORE assuming the worst and using rhetorical scare tactics to propogate your anti-ABORM agenda?David KarchmerChinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui " <flyingstarsfengshui wrote:>> Good Morning David:> > I actually think having an open discussion on this topic is > wonderful, not private dialogue. If an organization publically > promotes their exam and presents its benefits then its all public. I > thnk all my questions are very basic, fair and normal due process, > especially if I'm going to spend around $1,000.> > I would love to hear responses to our questions here, lets use this > open forum to fully understand the Certificate and how it will be > used and how non-certified Licensed Practitioners will need to > respond to it to the public and healthcare community.> > I do think how Certification is marketed has consequences for each > of us in our profession, why would any practitioner support > something without knowing the details and possible ramifications. > > I'm am ready and willing to listen.> > Thanks for your participation and best wishes,> > David> _______________ Gear up for Halo® 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It’s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live™. http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 Mike, I'll ask you the same thing I asked David and Kath: If you feel these are important questions, why don't you pose them to the people who are able to answer them? Like I said before, I do not question the value or validity of these types of questions. But if people want these questions answered, I just wonder why they are being rhetorically cast over the internet instead being directed to the officials who are actually capable of providing the answers. This is one of the main problems I have with the attacks on the ABORM; a lot of the charges being levied are either baseless, speculative, or just plain wrong. Many of the specific answers are available, but some of the critics of the ABORM prefer to speculate and blog about the nature of their concerns instead of checking to find out if they are genuinely founded. David Karchmer Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > I happen to think that these are important questions and beg to the issues > of transparency and ownership after all aren't they asking for our support?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > : acuprof: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 20:45:08 +0000Re: ABORM Questions > > > > > David,Once again, we are in partial agreement. I also think that an open discussion is wonderful, and that your questions are fair. However, your questions are being asked within the context created by your earlier posts - namely, that you do not support the process of the ABORM and that you are against specialty boards. Within that context, these questions seem inflammatory, and serve the purpose of " whipping up " public dissent more than seeking actual information. What I am saying is that the ACTUAL answers to your questions are probably readily available if you were to direct them to officials of the organization. Because you chose to post those kinds of questions rhetorically in a public forum (where actual answers are unlikely), instead of directing them toward someone with the actual data you are asking about, it suggests to me that the purpose of asking such things was more polemic than it was earnest.Furthermore, if you (or others who so vocally oppose the ABORM) are genuinely interested in the answers to such questions, I ask again - Why not do your homework and get those questions answered BEFORE assuming the worst and using rhetorical scare tactics to propogate your anti-ABORM agenda?David Karchmer--- In Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui " <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:>> Good Morning David:> > I actually think having an open discussion on this topic is > wonderful, not private dialogue. If an organization publically > promotes their exam and presents its benefits then its all public. I > thnk all my questions are very basic, fair and normal due process, > especially if I'm going to spend around $1,000.> > I would love to hear responses to our questions here, lets use this > open forum to fully understand the Certificate and how it will be > used and how non- certified Licensed Practitioners will need to > respond to it to the public and healthcare community.> > I do think how Certification is marketed has consequences for each > of us in our profession, why would any practitioner support > something without knowing the details and possible ramifications. > > I'm am ready and willing to listen.> > Thanks for your participation and best wishes,> > David> _______________ > Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It? s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live?. > http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 OK David, I will let your message be your request. I only hope that as a result of posting it on this internet message board that a red siren will magically go off in Ray Rubio's office so that he will know that you have done so, or perhaps he will just mystically intuit as much and know to log on and respond. --- In Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui " <flyingstarsfengshui wrote: > > Hi David: > > Let this message be my request for ABORM to answer our questions and > address our concerns " here " for our profession and community to see > and understand and respond. > > Best Wishes, > > David > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 Julie, ABORM offers certification in Reproductive Oriental Medicine, not women's health at large. The focus is on the diagnosis and treatment of both men's and women's health in the context of fertility and reproduction. For more specific information, go to www.aborm.org At the bottom of the homepage, you will find a ppt (power point) that describes the Board's mission, purpose, and vision. David Karchmer Chinese Medicine , " Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. " <cariadanam wrote: > > One last question - ABORM seems focused on fertility, is this true or does it span women's health? > Julie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 Chinese Medicine , " Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. " <cariadanam wrote: > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money for the board. > Julie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 David, Sorry to bug you about this but you seemed to be very intelligent on the ABORM and thought that you might want to know these answers as well and you might have an inside on getting this info.Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acuprof: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 01:18:56 +0000Re: ABORM Questions Mike,I'll ask you the same thing I asked David and Kath:If you feel these are important questions, why don't you pose them to the people who are able to answer them?Like I said before, I do not question the value or validity of these types of questions. But if people want these questions answered, I just wonder why they are being rhetorically cast over the internet instead being directed to the officials who are actually capable of providing the answers.This is one of the main problems I have with the attacks on the ABORM; a lot of the charges being levied are either baseless, speculative, or just plain wrong. Many of the specific answers are available, but some of the critics of the ABORM prefer to speculate and blog about the nature of their concerns instead of checking to find out if they are genuinely founded.David Karchmer--- In Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:>> I happen to think that these are important questions and beg to the issues> of transparency and ownership after all aren't they asking for our support?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> > > : acuprof: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 20:45:08 +0000Re: ABORM Questions> > > > > David,Once again, we are in partial agreement. I also think that an open discussion is wonderful, and that your questions are fair. However, your questions are being asked within the context created by your earlier posts - namely, that you do not support the process of the ABORM and that you are against specialty boards. Within that context, these questions seem inflammatory, and serve the purpose of " whipping up " public dissent more than seeking actual information. What I am saying is that the ACTUAL answers to your questions are probably readily available if you were to direct them to officials of the organization. Because you chose to post those kinds of questions rhetorically in a public forum (where actual answers are unlikely), instead of directing them toward someone with the actual data you are asking about, it suggests to me that the purpose of asking such things was more polemic than it was earnest.Furthermore, if you (or others who so vocally oppose the ABORM) are genuinely interested in the answers to such questions, I ask again - Why not do your homework and get those questions answered BEFORE assuming the worst and using rhetorical scare tactics to propogate your anti-ABORM agenda?David KarchmerChinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui " <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:>> Good Morning David:> > I actually think having an open discussion on this topic is > wonderful, not private dialogue. If an organization publically > promotes their exam and presents its benefits then its all public. I > thnk all my questions are very basic, fair and normal due process, > especially if I'm going to spend around $1,000.> > I would love to hear responses to our questions here, lets use this > open forum to fully understand the Certificate and how it will be > used and how non-certified Licensed Practitioners will need to > respond to it to the public and healthcare community.> > I do think how Certification is marketed has consequences for each > of us in our profession, why would any practitioner support > something without knowing the details and possible ramifications. > > I'm am ready and willing to listen.> > Thanks for your participation and best wishes,> > David> > > > > > > > ________> Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It?s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live?.> http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 Heidi, I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility based cases. I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I have to say my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments my patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have training in this area. Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It requires an extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the Western ART system. Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50% better, there really is only one result with patients who are TTC. Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you read their books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have a very different perspective on this then. I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some, but at the end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our patients then it can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics. Equally respectful, Gordon. On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin wrote: > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " Julie Ormonde, > L.Ac. " <cariadanam wrote: > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money for > the board. > > Julie > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 Hi Gordon, could you give us some horror stories? Examples, I am sure, would be helpful. Hugo Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins Chinese Medicine Monday, 10 September, 2007 12:14:39 AM Re: Re: ABORM Questions Heidi, I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility based cases. I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I have to say my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments my patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have training in this area. Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It requires an extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the Western ART system. Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50% better, there really is only one result with patients who are TTC. Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you read their books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have a very different perspective on this then. I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some, but at the end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our patients then it can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics. Equally respectful, Gordon. On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin@sbcgloba l.net> wrote: > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>, > " Julie Ormonde, > L.Ac. " <cariadanam@ ...> wrote: > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money for > the board. > > Julie > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 Hugo, I'm glad to hear from you this morning. I was just thinking about you and about the fact that you have not replied to any of the posts I've directed to you. You have also not addressed any of my responses to the posts you have directed toward me. Care to comment? David Karchmer Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Gordon, could you give us some horror stories? Examples, I am sure, would be helpful. > > Hugo > > > Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins > Chinese Medicine > Monday, 10 September, 2007 12:14:39 AM > Re: Re: ABORM Questions > > > > > > > Heidi, > > > > I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility based cases. > > I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I have to say > > my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments my > > patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have training in > > this area. > > > > Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It requires an > > extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the Western > > ART system. > > > > Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50% better, there > > really is only one result with patients who are TTC. > > > > Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you read their > > books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have a very > > different perspective on this then. > > > > I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some, but at the > > end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our patients then it > > can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics. > > > > Equally respectful, > > > > Gordon. > > > > On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin@sbcgloba l.net> wrote: > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>, > > > " Julie Ormonde, > > > L.Ac. " <cariadanam@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not > > > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose > > > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money for > > > the board. > > > > Julie > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 David, I want to clarify two things before addressing your latest post. First, I want to make it clear that I have a vested interest in the outcome of the ABORM process, but I am not an official of the ABORM and I am not a member of the board. Therefore, all of my views and comments are my own and do not represent official board policy. Secondly, I think that you have posed (and continue to pose) some very interesting and valid questions. But as someone who is taking a very vocal stand in this matter, it does not appear to me that you are doing due diligence to actually get your questions answered. Have you contacted the ABORM to get your questions answered? If not, why? If you are genuinely interested in the nuts and bolts of the Board and the certification process, why do you keep posting rhetorical questions on the internet and continue to promote doomsday predictions instead of taking a few minutes to write a letter directly to those who have the ability to answer you? I know that you think that this should be a " public " discussion, but one must at least invite his opponent to the party if you want to call it a debate. If you are asking your questions in earnest, here is a suggestion for how to start your next post: " Dear TCM community, You'll be pleased to know that I contacted Ray Rubio, president of the ABORM with a list of questions that I know are important to you all, and here is what he had to say........................ " --- In Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui " <flyingstarsfengshui wrote: > > Hi Hugo: > > I would like to hear these horror stories too, in detail. If they > are true this is a compentency problem and a license problem. > > Its my feeling too often we accept claims. Is there written > literature of the Experts on this ABORM, the exact strategies, > diagnosis, treatment plans, points, herbs, etc. that they use in > clinic so we can see how what it is they are doing, it is possible > they are just using the basics. > > Is it wise to just accept claimed expertise? I generally would not > concern myself but since they want to set the industry standard with > ceritfication that can have signinficant influence in our industry > its important we find this out. > > It seems they are recommending books to read and know, and I suppose > they are making up a test based on book knowledge. So if anybody has > this specfic info please let us all know so we as licenced > practioners can judge whether they have advanced knoweldge and not > just book knowledge. > > Thanks, > > David Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro > <subincor@> wrote: > > > > Hi Gordon, could you give us some horror stories? Examples, I am > sure, would be helpful. > > > > Hugo > > > > > > Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins@> > > Chinese Medicine > > Monday, 10 September, 2007 12:14:39 AM > > Re: Re: ABORM Questions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heidi, > > > > > > > > I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility > based cases. > > > > I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I > have to say > > > > my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments > my > > > > patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have > training in > > > > this area. > > > > > > > > Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It > requires an > > > > extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the > Western > > > > ART system. > > > > > > > > Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50% > better, there > > > > really is only one result with patients who are TTC. > > > > > > > > Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you > read their > > > > books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have > a very > > > > different perspective on this then. > > > > > > > > I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some, > but at the > > > > end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our > patients then it > > > > can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics. > > > > > > > > Equally respectful, > > > > > > > > Gordon. > > > > > > > > On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin@sbcgloba l.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. > com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>, > > > > > " Julie Ormonde, > > > > > L.Ac. " <cariadanam@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not > > > > > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose > > > > > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money > for > > > > > the board. > > > > > > Julie > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 David, Of course you are free to voice your opinion in any way you choose. However, since this message board is not an official channel of communication for the ABORM, and since you do not wish to ask quesitons directly to the officers of the ABORM, I will have to assume that your questions are meant to be rhetorical and polemical, and are not earnestly asked with the intent of getting real answers. David Karchmer --- In Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui " <flyingstarsfengshui wrote: > > Hi David: > > Well thanks for your advise, I have been around for awhile and can > decide how I want to address this issue. Thanks for passing the > information on to ABORM, much appreciated and now they have the > oppurtunity to directly address our community, hopefully we can have > an informative and meangingful dialogue. > > As participants in the TCM community we have the right to actively > engage in the unfolding of our industry, this type of forum allows us > to communicate on a larger scale and not be isolated and limited by > resources. I suggest all people be active in this and future issues, > regardless of what view one has, in a way we can influence our > profession, yes each of us practitioners is an important part of this > profession and if we choose can participant in guding it. > > Best Wishes, > > David > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 Hugo, As mentioned previously, I am practicing in Ireland, and have no understanding of how the American system of Licensing works. I am only aware of the irish system. And like everything in life, there are good and bad points. For example, it is possible to go to Asia and do a 2-3 month course in acupuncture come back with a paid cert, join one of the organizations and hey presto. You can practice... Medical doctors after an 8 week course can do acupuncture. So very different to the US. Horror stories include Acupuncturists who don't know the difference between: - Luteal Phase and Follecular phases. Or even what day ovulation is, the signs and symptoms to look out for when you ovulate, or the different cervical mucus types showing ovulation. - Cycle lengths of a period, a 28 day cycle, or 25 day cycle or 50 day cycle, and the reasons why this is happening. - The difference between progesterone and estrogene and how they influence fertility. - What the different fertility drugs do to the body in a western and TCM terms, ie Clomid. - What an IUI is, different reasons for 3 or 5 day transfers during IVF or ICSI. - How to treat a patient who has had 3 - 5 recurrent miscarriages, where the patient has never een a heart beat and know what TCM patterns are the cause for this. Or why miscarriage can happen on week 10 or week 12 or week 22. And telling a patient these things happen. Or keep trying, statically your get pregnant eventually. Would you wish for your sister or wife to be treated by this type of Acupuncturist who says they specialise and treat fertility problems. These are just a but a few that I have seen in the last few months. And I know I am going to hear, well we are not western based we are TCM. But this is basic stuff, and if people don't know the basics, then shame on you for telling people you treat fertility, you are doing you patient a dis-service. I have heard a few people talk about the cost, in the last 2-3 years I have gladly spent between 15,000 to 20,000 dollars educating myself by traveling all over the world (Canada, United States, United Kingdom, Portugal) to train and learn from in my view the most amazing and knowledgeable fertility specialists, and I have brought this knowledge back to my clinic and then to my patients. So to me 1000 dollars, if it enhances your clinic and helps you to facilitate the creation of one life for a couple is not a cost. As I said before we are here for our patients not politics. BTW 60% of my current patients are pregnant, out of the last 18 pregnancies we have had one bad experience of a miscarriage that we could do nothing to help. Current rates of miscarriage in Ireland are that 1 in 5 pregnancies will miscarry. Learn from the best, strive to be the best and live life in every breath. Cheers, Gordon. On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof wrote: > > David, > > Of course you are free to voice your opinion in any way you choose. > > However, since this message board is not an official channel of > communication for the ABORM, and since you do not wish to ask > quesitons directly to the officers of the ABORM, I will have to > assume that your questions are meant to be rhetorical and polemical, > and are not earnestly asked with the intent of getting real answers. > > David Karchmer > > --- In > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " flyingstarsfengshui " > <flyingstarsfengshui wrote: > > > > Hi David: > > > > Well thanks for your advise, I have been around for awhile and can > > decide how I want to address this issue. Thanks for passing the > > information on to ABORM, much appreciated and now they have the > > oppurtunity to directly address our community, hopefully we can > have > > an informative and meangingful dialogue. > > > > As participants in the TCM community we have the right to actively > > engage in the unfolding of our industry, this type of forum allows > us > > to communicate on a larger scale and not be isolated and limited > by > > resources. I suggest all people be active in this and future > issues, > > regardless of what view one has, in a way we can influence our > > profession, yes each of us practitioners is an important part of > this > > profession and if we choose can participant in guding it. > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > David > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 David, I really am not sure why you make such comments like: ' I would like to hear these horror stories too, in detail. If they are true this is a compentency problem and a license problem. ' 'if they are true' - what are you trying to imply. Do you believe just because we practice TCM that there can not be horror stories out there. We are human and like western doctors, we all know some good ones, but equally we have heard about bad western doctors. I know some amazing acupuncturists but I also know of some extremely poor ones too..... And David, I completely agree with you, it is the basics we use, the problem is not alot of people do not know the basics.... As I mentioned... And whether it be advanced knowledge, book knowledge, or experienced knowledge, it is knowledge, and if it helps you to help you patient then what is the problem. By the way, the people involved have written the books, so it is then knowledge from their experience. One final question, have you read any of the books? If you had, I don't think you would question any of this. Gordon. On 9/10/07, flyingstarsfengshui <flyingstarsfengshui wrote: > > Hi Hugo: > > I would like to hear these horror stories too, in detail. If they > are true this is a compentency problem and a license problem. > > Its my feeling too often we accept claims. Is there written > literature of the Experts on this ABORM, the exact strategies, > diagnosis, treatment plans, points, herbs, etc. that they use in > clinic so we can see how what it is they are doing, it is possible > they are just using the basics. > > Is it wise to just accept claimed expertise? I generally would not > concern myself but since they want to set the industry standard with > ceritfication that can have signinficant influence in our industry > its important we find this out. > > It seems they are recommending books to read and know, and I suppose > they are making up a test based on book knowledge. So if anybody has > this specfic info please let us all know so we as licenced > practioners can judge whether they have advanced knoweldge and not > just book knowledge. > > Thanks, > > David > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > Hugo Ramiro > <subincor wrote: > > > > Hi Gordon, could you give us some horror stories? Examples, I am > sure, would be helpful. > > > > Hugo > > > > > > Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > Monday, 10 September, 2007 12:14:39 AM > > Re: Re: ABORM Questions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heidi, > > > > > > > > I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility > based cases. > > > > I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I > have to say > > > > my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments > my > > > > patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have > training in > > > > this area. > > > > > > > > Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It > requires an > > > > extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the > Western > > > > ART system. > > > > > > > > Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50% > better, there > > > > really is only one result with patients who are TTC. > > > > > > > > Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you > read their > > > > books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have > a very > > > > different perspective on this then. > > > > > > > > I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some, > but at the > > > > end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our > patients then it > > > > can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics. > > > > > > > > Equally respectful, > > > > > > > > Gordon. > > > > > > > > On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin@sbcgloba l.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. > com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>, > > > > > " Julie Ormonde, > > > > > L.Ac. " <cariadanam@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not > > > > > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose > > > > > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money > for > > > > > the board. > > > > > > Julie > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 I contacted ABORM through their website and got an email back from Ray Rubio. He discusses some questions that were raised here, as well as some that I had. Anyway, thought others might be interested. <<<Sean - Thanks for you interest in the ABORM. I will try to answer your questions as thoroughly as possible. 1. The ABORM specifically avoided offering training courses linked to the exam as this is an inherent conflict of interest. In other words, if someone is offering training courses leading to a certification, it is in that instructor's interest to make sure that everyone passes the certification exam, or people will stop signing up for the courses. This is why, for example, the NCCAOM exam is separate from the training (acupuncture school), and not everyone who completes acupuncture school goes on to pass the exam and practice. You should also note that the ABORM is a non-profit, and not run by any individual. Every penny earned goes back into serving the public and the profession. The ABORM also spent the last three years having Board Members go around the USA and Canada to attend and evaluate all of the CEU courses being offered related to reproductive medicine, obgyn, and urology/male factor. We did this to make sure that our exam was reflective of what was being taught and offered at these courses, and we determined that there were no shortage of courses and training related to infertility - from beginning to advanced. What was missing, was some sort of evaluation tool that someone who wished to demonstrate competency might avail themselves of if they wanted to call themselves a specialist in infertility. 2. Although website lists the reference texts and categories of competency only briefly, a more detailed exam study guide is mailed out with every aborm registrant's acceptance letter. 3. The requirements for maintaining the specialty are 20 CEU's pertaining to reproductive medicine every two years, and $200 to maintain membership. These CEU's may be part of the aborm fellow's regular CEU requirement, or in addition to them, it's up to the individual. I hope this answers most of your questions, but please feel free to write with any more, Warmest regards, Ray Rubio, D.A.O.M., L Ac. President ABORM>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 David, what are you talking about? I have a job, and I also need my free time on weekends when I can get it. You're so eager. Anyway, as much as I might love to flood the board with my posts, I should be more demure. I will post on the most important things and try to keep it to that only. Hugo David Karchmer <acuprof Chinese Medicine Monday, 10 September, 2007 8:55:17 AM Re: ABORM Questions Hugo, I'm glad to hear from you this morning. I was just thinking about you and about the fact that you have not replied to any of the posts I've directed to you. You have also not addressed any of my responses to the posts you have directed toward me. Care to comment? David Karchmer Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@.. .> wrote: > > Hi Gordon, could you give us some horror stories? Examples, I am sure, would be helpful. > > Hugo > > > Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins@ ...> > > Monday, 10 September, 2007 12:14:39 AM > Re: Re: ABORM Questions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heidi, > > > > I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility based cases. > > I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I have to say > > my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments my > > patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have training in > > this area. > > > > Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It requires an > > extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the Western > > ART system. > > > > Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50% better, there > > really is only one result with patients who are TTC. > > > > Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you read their > > books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have a very > > different perspective on this then. > > > > I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some, but at the > > end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our patients then it > > can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics. > > > > Equally respectful, > > > > Gordon. > > > > On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin@ sbcgloba l.net> wrote: > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>, > > > " Julie Ormonde, > > > L.Ac. " <cariadanam@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not > > > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose > > > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money for > > > the board. > > > > Julie > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 Hey...I thought we agreed to go Western and spell out our acronyms from now on! (ART = Assisted Reproductive Technology, TTC = Trying to Conceive, right?) I'm a new practitioner, which is why I follow this group with interest but rarely post. I'm here to learn from more experienced people. I realize my education has just begun, and I read everything I can (I have read Lyttleton, now Lewis is on my list). I have closely followed this discussion, and I'm still forming my opinion on ABORM and other specialty groups. I just felt the need to mention the influence of money, to which our noble profession is not immune. Please continue the discussion, as it helps me with my TTLS (Trying to Learn Syndrome)! Heidi Irwin, LAc Chinese Medicine , " Gordon Mullins " <gordon.mullins wrote: > > Heidi, > > I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility based cases. > I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I have to say > my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments my > patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have training in > this area. > > Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It requires an > extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the Western > ART system. > > Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50% better, there > really is only one result with patients who are TTC. > > Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you read their > books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have a very > different perspective on this then. > > I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some, but at the > end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our patients then it > can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics. > > Equally respectful, > > Gordon. > > On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin wrote: > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medic ine%40>, > > " Julie Ormonde, > > L.Ac. " <cariadanam@> wrote: > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not > > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose > > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money for > > the board. > > > Julie > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 I think ABORM should focus instead on providing quality CEUs than trying to certify people. I personally have studied with 3 of the ABORM staff and my question is why should a practitioner (I don't necissarily mean me) who already has a successful practice treating women ( & men) for infertility, now have to shell out loads of money to be certified by people they may have no connection to? How about all those Chinese practitioners from mainland China that come over here, with more training than most of us? Why should they have to fit in some mold that is being imposed upon them? If the practitioner is already confident in their skills, why should s/he have to then recertify with ABORM? Why all this insanity trying to control a market, telling the public if they dont' go to a " certified " acu/herb " dr " they're not getting quality care? I mean, even new graduates, presented with a patient for ANYTHING, may have success treating it. Or not. It's part of growing in your practice. The Tao Te Ching basically says let people alone; don't try to impose laws upon them. ABORM is trying to set up a structure that I don't believe fits with the TCM model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 : -) Haven't seen that agreement.... But good point... Gordon. On 9/10/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin wrote: > > Hey...I thought we agreed to go Western and spell out our acronyms > from now on! (ART = Assisted Reproductive Technology, TTC = Trying to > Conceive, right?) > I'm a new practitioner, which is why I follow this group with > interest but rarely post. I'm here to learn from more experienced > people. I realize my education has just begun, and I read everything > I can (I have read Lyttleton, now Lewis is on my list). I have > closely followed this discussion, and I'm still forming my opinion on > ABORM and other specialty groups. I just felt the need to mention the > influence of money, to which our noble profession is not immune. > Please continue the discussion, as it helps me with my TTLS (Trying > to Learn Syndrome)! > > Heidi Irwin, LAc > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " Gordon Mullins " > > <gordon.mullins wrote: > > > > Heidi, > > > > I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility > based cases. > > I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I > have to say > > my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments my > > patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have > training in > > this area. > > > > Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It > requires an > > extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the > Western > > ART system. > > > > Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50% > better, there > > really is only one result with patients who are TTC. > > > > Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you > read their > > books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have a > very > > different perspective on this then. > > > > I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some, but > at the > > end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our patients > then it > > can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics. > > > > Equally respectful, > > > > Gordon. > > > > On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin wrote: > > > > > > --- In > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > <Traditional_Chinese_Medic > ine%40>, > > > " Julie Ormonde, > > > L.Ac. " <cariadanam@> wrote: > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not > > > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose > > > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money for > > > the board. > > > > Julie > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 Julie, one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-profit just means they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying the board members, so presumably the money is going to pay the board members, costs of administering the exam & printing those $1,000 certificates, and any advertising costs. i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture for the board. although i do not have reason to believe that the board members do not have altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at least one board member, randine lewis has been quite successful at turning a profit with books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in other words, capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive here. just noting facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for me. kb On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam wrote: > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not cheap in > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose pockets? I am > concerned this could just be a way to make money for the board. > Julie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 Kath, Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts " something that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for the board, " and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board members??? " These are your facts? What you presume, and that which " smacks? " I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that you are CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that you " do not mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then go on to claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing nothing of the kind. As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are designed to be completely transparent. I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you want real facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board and ask them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and call Ray Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f salary he intends to draw. But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based assumptions as data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing those assumptions as facts! Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett, MS, LAc " wrote: > > Julie, > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-profit just means > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying the board members, > so presumably the money is going to pay the board members, costs of > administering the exam & printing those $1,000 certificates, and any > advertising costs. > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture for the board. > although i do not have reason to believe that the board members do not have > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at least one board > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at turning a profit with > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in other words, > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive here. just noting > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for me. > > kb > > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam wrote: > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not cheap in > > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose pockets? I am > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for the board. > > Julie > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 david: just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses your liver qi, resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately. rather, wait an hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and then decide if the email requires a response. if so, you can then respond with less emotion. (i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit, sometime i do hit reply and send without pausing). hope this helps, kb On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof wrote: > > Kath, > > Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts " something > that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for the board, " > and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board members??? " > > These are your facts? What you presume, and that which " smacks? " > > I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that you are > CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that you " do not > mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then go on to > claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing nothing of > the kind. > > As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are designed to > be completely transparent. > > I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you want real > facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board and ask > them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and call Ray > Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f salary he > intends to draw. > > But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based assumptions as > data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing those > assumptions as facts! > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " Kath Bartlett, > MS, LAc " wrote: > > > > Julie, > > > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-profit > just means > > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying the > board members, > > so presumably the money is going to pay the board members, costs of > > administering the exam & printing those $1,000 certificates, and > any > > advertising costs. > > > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture for the > board. > > although i do not have reason to believe that the board members do > not have > > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at least one > board > > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at turning a > profit with > > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in other > words, > > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive here. > just noting > > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for me. > > > > kb > > > > > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam wrote: > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not > cheap in > > > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose pockets? > I am > > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for the board. > > > Julie > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 Well Kath, You're right. It irritates me. Because you are certainly not the first to make negative assumptions about the financial motives of the people involved with ABORM or Reproductive OM at large. But, you are the first that I have seen who described those assumptions as facts. And had you bothered to do so, you would have been the first one to do any fact-checking before publishing your assumptions all over the internet. Now pass the GOD DAMNED Xiao Yao San!!!! Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett, MS, LAc " wrote: > > david: > > just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses your liver qi, > resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately. rather, wait an > hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and then decide if the > email requires a response. if so, you can then respond with less emotion. > (i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit, sometime i do hit > reply and send without pausing). > > hope this helps, > > kb > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof wrote: > > > > Kath, > > > > Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts " something > > that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for the board, " > > and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board members??? " > > > > These are your facts? What you presume, and that which " smacks? " > > > > I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that you are > > CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that you " do not > > mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then go on to > > claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing nothing of > > the kind. > > > > As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are designed to > > be completely transparent. > > > > I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you want real > > facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board and ask > > them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and call Ray > > Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f salary he > > intends to draw. > > > > But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based assumptions as > > data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing those > > assumptions as facts! > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi cine%40>, > > " Kath Bartlett, > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote: > > > > > > Julie, > > > > > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-profit > > just means > > > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying the > > board members, > > > so presumably the money is going to pay the board members, costs of > > > administering the exam & printing those $1,000 certificates, and > > any > > > advertising costs. > > > > > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture for the > > board. > > > although i do not have reason to believe that the board members do > > not have > > > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at least one > > board > > > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at turning a > > profit with > > > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in other > > words, > > > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive here. > > just noting > > > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for me. > > > > > > kb > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam@> wrote: > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not > > cheap in > > > > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose pockets? > > I am > > > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for the board. > > > > Julie > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 david: i don't think we are allowed to say the D-word on the TCM site. hope you find the xiao yao wan soon. meanwhile, massage liv3 k On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof wrote: > > Well Kath, > > You're right. It irritates me. Because you are certainly not the > first to make negative assumptions about the financial motives of > the people involved with ABORM or Reproductive OM at large. > > But, you are the first that I have seen who described those > assumptions as facts. And had you bothered to do so, you would have > been the first one to do any fact-checking before publishing your > assumptions all over the internet. > > Now pass the GOD DAMNED Xiao Yao San!!!! > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " Kath Bartlett, > MS, LAc " wrote: > > > > david: > > > > just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses your liver > qi, > > resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately. rather, > wait an > > hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and then decide > if the > > email requires a response. if so, you can then respond with less > emotion. > > (i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit, sometime i > do hit > > reply and send without pausing). > > > > hope this helps, > > > > kb > > > > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof wrote: > > > > > > Kath, > > > > > > Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts " something > > > that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for the > board, " > > > and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board > members??? " > > > > > > These are your facts? What you presume, and that which " smacks? " > > > > > > I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that you are > > > CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that you " do > not > > > mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then go on > to > > > claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing > nothing of > > > the kind. > > > > > > As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are designed > to > > > be completely transparent. > > > > > > I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you want > real > > > facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board and ask > > > them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and call > Ray > > > Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f salary > he > > > intends to draw. > > > > > > But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based > assumptions as > > > data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing those > > > assumptions as facts! > > > > > > --- In > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi > cine%40>, > > > " Kath Bartlett, > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Julie, > > > > > > > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-profit > > > just means > > > > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying the > > > board members, > > > > so presumably the money is going to pay the board members, > costs of > > > > administering the exam & printing those $1,000 certificates, > and > > > any > > > > advertising costs. > > > > > > > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture for the > > > board. > > > > although i do not have reason to believe that the board > members do > > > not have > > > > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at least > one > > > board > > > > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at turning a > > > profit with > > > > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in other > > > words, > > > > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive here. > > > just noting > > > > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for me. > > > > > > > > kb > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is > not > > > cheap in > > > > > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose > pockets? > > > I am > > > > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for the > board. > > > > > Julie > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 Kath, I'll take your medical advice. Thanks. Since you " presume " that my condition " smacks " of Liver Qi stagnation, it MUST be a fact. Right? David Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett, MS, LAc " wrote: > > david: > > i don't think we are allowed to say the D-word on the TCM site. > > hope you find the xiao yao wan soon. meanwhile, massage liv3 > > k > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof wrote: > > > > Well Kath, > > > > You're right. It irritates me. Because you are certainly not the > > first to make negative assumptions about the financial motives of > > the people involved with ABORM or Reproductive OM at large. > > > > But, you are the first that I have seen who described those > > assumptions as facts. And had you bothered to do so, you would have > > been the first one to do any fact-checking before publishing your > > assumptions all over the internet. > > > > Now pass the GOD DAMNED Xiao Yao San!!!! > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi cine%40>, > > " Kath Bartlett, > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote: > > > > > > david: > > > > > > just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses your liver > > qi, > > > resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately. rather, > > wait an > > > hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and then decide > > if the > > > email requires a response. if so, you can then respond with less > > emotion. > > > (i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit, sometime i > > do hit > > > reply and send without pausing). > > > > > > hope this helps, > > > > > > kb > > > > > > > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Kath, > > > > > > > > Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts " something > > > > that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for the > > board, " > > > > and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board > > members??? " > > > > > > > > These are your facts? What you presume, and that which " smacks? " > > > > > > > > I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that you are > > > > CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that you " do > > not > > > > mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then go on > > to > > > > claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing > > nothing of > > > > the kind. > > > > > > > > As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are designed > > to > > > > be completely transparent. > > > > > > > > I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you want > > real > > > > facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board and ask > > > > them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and call > > Ray > > > > Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f salary > > he > > > > intends to draw. > > > > > > > > But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based > > assumptions as > > > > data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing those > > > > assumptions as facts! > > > > > > > > --- In > > Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi cine%40> > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi > > cine%40>, > > > > " Kath Bartlett, > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Julie, > > > > > > > > > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for- profit > > > > just means > > > > > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying the > > > > board members, > > > > > so presumably the money is going to pay the board members, > > costs of > > > > > administering the exam & printing those $1,000 certificates, > > and > > > > any > > > > > advertising costs. > > > > > > > > > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture for the > > > > board. > > > > > although i do not have reason to believe that the board > > members do > > > > not have > > > > > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at least > > one > > > > board > > > > > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at turning a > > > > profit with > > > > > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in other > > > > words, > > > > > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive here. > > > > just noting > > > > > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for me. > > > > > > > > > > kb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is > > not > > > > cheap in > > > > > > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose > > pockets? > > > > I am > > > > > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for the > > board. > > > > > > Julie > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 David, It has been my experience that on most internet boards, the individual making any claims or advocating something, is the one responsible to find the information and post it about the subject that they brought up. (I know that is a confusing sentence, but I am tired right now) In other words, if you are the one that brought up ABORM on this board, you are the one that is responsible for finding the answers. It is poor form to advocate something as being good or the future of our profession, and then tell everyone else that they have to do the research on the organization that you brought up and would logically be more familer with than anyone else here. " Contact them and get the answers yourself " in not considered to be polite. If you brought this up, then supply the answers if you can, if not tell us that you can't and then drop it. R. L. Baddorf LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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