Guest guest Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 Success rates for implatation with IVF hover around 80% in cases of egg donor. Full term pregnancies (i.e. absence of miscarriage) are dependent on age. Older = >incidence of miscarriage. David K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 I was quoting baby rates, implantation without baby is kind of moot - David Karchmer Chinese Medicine Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:44 PM IVF Success Rates Success rates for implatation with IVF hover around 80% in cases of egg donor. Full term pregnancies (i.e. absence of miscarriage) are dependent on age. Older = >incidence of miscarriage. David K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 repeated cycles also increase the numbers - David Karchmer Chinese Medicine Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:44 PM IVF Success Rates Success rates for implatation with IVF hover around 80% in cases of egg donor. Full term pregnancies (i.e. absence of miscarriage) are dependent on age. Older = >incidence of miscarriage. David K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 David, The 80% you mentioned, I just want to clarify something in my head, when you mean implantation do yuu mean the actual implantation and the egg burrowing into the uterus or just the fertilization of egg and transfer? That 80% sees a bit high to me. I would have felt it was much much lower. Considering what the patient would have gone through to get to that stage and all other factors. Thanks David, Gordon. On 9/17/07, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > > repeated cycles also increase the numbers > > > > > > > > > - > David Karchmer > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:44 PM > IVF Success Rates > > Success rates for implatation with IVF hover around 80% in cases of > egg donor. > > Full term pregnancies (i.e. absence of miscarriage) are dependent on > age. Older = >incidence of miscarriage. > > David K. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Gordon, There are essentially 4 factors (as you are probably aware) that contribute to the diagnosis of Infertility: Tubal Factor Ovarian Factor Uterine Factor Male Factor In the case of egg-donation, the problem lies with the woman's eggs (ovarian factor). The 80% success rate that I cited in case of egg donation assumes that the uterine factor is in good shape. When I say " implantation " rate, I mean that the woman becomes pregnant, which is to say that 12-14 days after the donor embryo transfer, she tests positive for pregnancy by way of serum hCG assay. David K. - In Chinese Medicine , " Gordon Mullins " <gordon.mullins wrote: > > David, > > The 80% you mentioned, I just want to clarify something in my head, when you > mean implantation do yuu mean the actual implantation and the egg burrowing > into the uterus or just the fertilization of egg and transfer? That 80% sees > a bit high to me. I would have felt it was much much lower. Considering what > the patient would have gone through to get to that stage and all other > factors. > > Thanks David, > > Gordon. > > On 9/17/07, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > > > > repeated cycles also increase the numbers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > David Karchmer > > To: Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi cine%40> > > Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:44 PM > > IVF Success Rates > > > > Success rates for implatation with IVF hover around 80% in cases of > > egg donor. > > > > Full term pregnancies (i.e. absence of miscarriage) are dependent on > > age. Older = >incidence of miscarriage. > > > > David K. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Also, Egg Donation is generally only utilized in cases of Pre-Mature Ovarian Failure (POF), Hx of Ovarian Cancer or some other disease that has rendered the Ovaries Non-Functional (or for which they have been removed), or some other kind of severe ovarian issue wherein the ovaries are unable to respond to stimulation/super-ovulation. David K. Chinese Medicine , " David Karchmer " <acuprof wrote: > > Gordon, > > There are essentially 4 factors (as you are probably aware) that > contribute to the diagnosis of Infertility: > > Tubal Factor > Ovarian Factor > Uterine Factor > Male Factor > > In the case of egg-donation, the problem lies with the woman's eggs > (ovarian factor). The 80% success rate that I cited in case of egg > donation assumes that the uterine factor is in good shape. > > When I say " implantation " rate, I mean that the woman becomes > pregnant, which is to say that 12-14 days after the donor embryo > transfer, she tests positive for pregnancy by way of serum hCG > assay. > > David K. > > > > - In Chinese Medicine , " Gordon Mullins " > <gordon.mullins@> wrote: > > > > David, > > > > The 80% you mentioned, I just want to clarify something in my > head, when you > > mean implantation do yuu mean the actual implantation and the egg > burrowing > > into the uterus or just the fertilization of egg and transfer? > That 80% sees > > a bit high to me. I would have felt it was much much lower. > Considering what > > the patient would have gone through to get to that stage and all > other > > factors. > > > > Thanks David, > > > > Gordon. > > > > On 9/17/07, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > > > repeated cycles also increase the numbers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > David Karchmer > > > To: > Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi > cine%40> > > > Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:44 PM > > > IVF Success Rates > > > > > > Success rates for implatation with IVF hover around 80% in cases > of > > > egg donor. > > > > > > Full term pregnancies (i.e. absence of miscarriage) are > dependent on > > > age. Older = >incidence of miscarriage. > > > > > > David K. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 what about when you add acu. do you have a general stat on what % acu will increased success of IVF and birth? i remember that acu increases success significantly, but don't recall the numbers. k On 9/16/07, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > > I was quoting baby rates, implantation without baby is kind of moot > > > > > > > > > - > David Karchmer > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:44 PM > IVF Success Rates > > Success rates for implatation with IVF hover around 80% in cases of > egg donor. > > Full term pregnancies (i.e. absence of miscarriage) are dependent on > age. Older = >incidence of miscarriage. > > David K. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 Kath, There are some limited studies into this area (The Paulus et al. study being among the best known.) Diane Cridennda and Dr. Paul Magarelli have also done some fairly estensive research iun Colorado. They are trying to publish the findings of this research. However, because of the many intrinsic variables that occur with acupuncture research, the process has slowed down under peer review. The interesting thing about the Magarelli/Cridennda project is that it was able to account for not only the changes in conception and take home baby rates between the acupuncture and control groups, but through serum blood work that was routinely performed on participants, it was also able to identify a spectrum of possible causative factors. These include diminished cortisol levels in the acupuncture group, for example. More research is definately needed in this area. In order to clearly define acupuncture and OM's role in ART procedures, we need large scale studies with significant sample sizes. This requires solid organization and professional interaction between acupucturists and REI clinics. Let the beating of the dead horse begin when I ask, " Who could possibly facilitate the infrastructure needed to conduct these kinds of research projects? " Hint: Starts with an A and ends in a BORM. David Karchmer -- In Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett, MS, LAc " wrote: > > what about when you add acu. do you have a general stat on what % acu will > increased success of IVF and birth? i remember that acu increases success > significantly, but don't recall the numbers. > > k > > > On 9/16/07, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > > > > I was quoting baby rates, implantation without baby is kind of moot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 David, " Who could possibly facilitate the infrastructure needed to conduct these kinds of research projects? " The ABORM is far from even one study let alone conducting many. How many LAc, TCM org or even schools have received funding or even conducted studies? Why not put more efforts into moving these forward? This idea makes no sense. The current trend is to fund acu research in the medical univ not acupuncture schools although some schools have been able to collaborate with medical univ. For many reasons stated before, this project is a loner and gets us no greater recognition, status or acceptance. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac _______________ More photos; more messages; more whatever – Get MORE with Windows Live™ Hotmail®. NOW with 5GB storage. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM\ _mini_5G_0907 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 Mike, It does make sense because TCM schools are provincial. They are not likely to organize or oversee large scale research projects that require adequate sample sizes. However, a national organization focused on research could potentially fill that role. All of these numbers that people quote are great for patient marketing. " 92% of my patients get pregnant with acupuncture. " " 58% of my patients get pregnant with herbs! " Unfortunately, these types of anecdotal and informal statistics do not represent any kind of actual scientific data, and are therefore unlikely to help create any kind of meaningful place for acupuncture and OM as a standard adjunct to ART procedures. What is needed in order to accomplish this is actual clinical research. This means large scale projects with substantial sample sizes - and, in all likelyhood this means multi city (if not multi state) sized projects. Who is going to do that? AAAOM? NCCAOM? PCOM? OCOM? AOMA? I doubt it. David Karchmer Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > David, > > " Who could possibly facilitate the infrastructure needed to conduct these kinds of research projects? " > > The ABORM is far from even one study let alone conducting > many. How many LAc, TCM org or even schools have received funding or even > conducted studies? Why not put more efforts into moving these forward? > > This idea makes no sense. > > The current trend is to fund acu research in the medical univ not acupuncture > schools although some schools have been able to collaborate with medical univ. > > For many reasons stated before, this project is a loner and gets us no greater > recognition, status or acceptance. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > _______________ > More photos; more messages; more whatever – Get MORE with Windows Live™ Hotmail®. NOW with 5GB storage. > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en- us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_5G_0907 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 David, I disagree with your assessment. Many schools in the past such as PCOM, OCOM and NESA to name a few have all received federal research money to conduct studies on acupuncture. While reproduction is an interesting topic, it is not the first one that comes to mind for getting us noticed or accepted. You will most likely see studies on fertility from a western collaborative organization or medical univ. While you may doubt the schools and acu org, I can definitely say the group you are so found of will not be undertaking such a study any time soon, either. It takes much more then a nice idea to make it happen and this org has not conducted this within a meaningful way (illegitimate) and most likely will not be a contender for any funding. There are many acu org that now want to offer a specialty certification, which is nice for ceu but does little to truly strengthen us. I will take my chance with a DAOM and put focus into better education. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acuprof: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:51:03 +0000Re: IVF Success Rates Mike,It does make sense because TCM schools are provincial. They are not likely to organize or oversee large scale research projects that require adequate sample sizes. However, a national organization focused on research could potentially fill that role.All of these numbers that people quote are great for patient marketing. " 92% of my patients get pregnant with acupuncture. " " 58% of my patients get pregnant with herbs! " Unfortunately, these types of anecdotal and informal statistics do not represent any kind of actual scientific data, and are therefore unlikely to help create any kind of meaningful place for acupuncture and OM as a standard adjunct to ART procedures.What is needed in order to accomplish this is actual clinical research. This means large scale projects with substantial sample sizes - and, in all likelyhood this means multi city (if not multi state) sized projects.Who is going to do that? AAAOM? NCCAOM? PCOM? OCOM? AOMA?I doubt it. David Karchmer--- In Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:>> David,> > " Who could possibly facilitate the infrastructure needed to conduct these kinds of research projects? " > > The ABORM is far from even one study let alone conducting> many. How many LAc, TCM org or even schools have received funding or even > conducted studies? Why not put more efforts into moving these forward? > > This idea makes no sense. > > The current trend is to fund acu research in the medical univ not acupuncture > schools although some schools have been able to collaborate with medical univ. > > For many reasons stated before, this project is a loner and gets us no greater> recognition, status or acceptance. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> ________> More photos; more messages; more whatever – Get MORE with Windows Live™ Hotmail®. NOW with 5GB storage.> http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM\ _mini_5G_0907> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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