Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

[Guest guest]

I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this article on

the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

" sham " acupuncture.

 

http://news./s/ap/20070925/ap_on_he_me/back_pain_acupuncture_13;_ylt=Al\

4sdvFVJmD9Py.SqpSk6QEE1vAI

 

Comments?

 

Christopher Vedeler

Oasis Acupuncture

www.oasisacupuncture.com

[Guest guest]

This study was also the focus of a story on ABC's national news tonight:

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3645275 & affil=knxv

 

On 9/24/07, Christopher Vedeler <vedeler wrote:

>

> I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this article on

> the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

> " sham " acupuncture.

>

>

>

http://news./s/ap/20070925/ap_on_he_me/back_pain_acupuncture_13;_ylt=Al\

4sdvFVJmD9Py.SqpSk6QEE1vAI

>

> Comments?

>

> Christopher Vedeler

> Oasis Acupuncture

> www.oasisacupuncture.com

>

>

 

 

 

--

Take care -

 

Kim

 

Om Namah Shivaya

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Very good question Chris.

 

Sham acupuncture can take many forms, for example acupoints not considered

to be beneficial for that disorder, or non acupoints on the skin or even

injectable points (where people get their jabs).

 

We would need to see the full study and see how they selected and

categorised their sham protocol.

 

Kind regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 1189 612512

enquiries

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

Christopher Vedeler

25 September 2007 07:32

Chinese Medicine

Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

 

I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this article on

the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

" sham " acupuncture.

 

http://news./s/ap/20070925/ap_on_he_me/back_pain_acupuncture_13;_yl

t=Al4sdvFVJmD9Py.SqpSk6QEE1vAI

 

Comments?

 

Christopher Vedeler

Oasis Acupuncture

www.oasisacupuncture.com

 

 

Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

 

[Guest guest]

Likewise........just because there is a negative study does not mean that it

was legitimate.

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 9/25/2007 9:46:23 A.M. Central Standard Time,

alonmarcus writes:

 

This may be true but if true acupuncture does not get better result than

sham why does anyone need to study? I do not think we can just dismiss negative

studies

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Tom

 

This is the crux of my experience to be presented at the Fascia Conference

held at Harvard next week by the use of BaGuaFa (use of GuaSha and

BaGuan/cupping).

 

Acupuncture with the capital " A " encompasses all body modalities (including

acupuncture needles) which affects not only the neuro-vascular systems but

possibly as important or maybe even more important the Extra Cellular Matrix -

the complete network of fascia and other connective tissue. As the skin is

one continuous structure from head to toe....so is the fascia.

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 9/25/2007 9:07:48 A.M. Central Standard Time,

tom.verhaeghe writes:

 

" sham " acupuncture always needles at least the mesenchyme - the tissues

which have been suggested by Matsumoto & Birch to be the substrate through

which the exchange of information (qi?) happens in the self-regulating

organism. So needling [the mesenchyme] may activate a homeostatic reflex and

thus cause benefit and initiate the healing process.

Hard to prove any of this, but theoretically I think it makes sense.

 

Best,

 

Tom.

 

 

 

 

 

 

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

as one of my teachers put it:

 

" sham " acupuncture always needles at least the mesenchyme - the tissues

which have been suggested by Matsumoto & Birch to be the substrate through

which the exchange of information (qi?) happens in the self-regulating

organism. So needling [the mesenchyme] may activate a homeostatic reflex and

thus cause benefit and initiate the healing process.

Hard to prove any of this, but theoretically I think it makes sense.

 

Best,

 

Tom.

----

 

Christopher Vedeler

25/09/2007 10:47:29

Chinese Medicine

Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this article on

the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

" sham " acupuncture.

 

http://news./s/ap/20070925/ap_on_he_me/back_pain_acupuncture_13

_ylt=Al4sdvFVJmD9Py.SqpSk6QEE1vAI

 

Comments?

 

Christopher Vedeler

Oasis Acupuncture

www.oasisacupuncture.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This may be true but if true acupuncture does not get better result than sham

why does anyone need to study? I do not think we can just dismiss negative

studies

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Tom Verhaeghe

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:07 AM

Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

 

 

as one of my teachers put it:

 

" sham " acupuncture always needles at least the mesenchyme - the tissues

which have been suggested by Matsumoto & Birch to be the substrate through

which the exchange of information (qi?) happens in the self-regulating

organism. So needling [the mesenchyme] may activate a homeostatic reflex and

thus cause benefit and initiate the healing process.

Hard to prove any of this, but theoretically I think it makes sense.

 

Best,

 

Tom.

----

 

Christopher Vedeler

25/09/2007 10:47:29

Chinese Medicine

Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this article on

the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

" sham " acupuncture.

 

http://news./s/ap/20070925/ap_on_he_me/back_pain_acupuncture_13

_ylt=Al4sdvFVJmD9Py.SqpSk6QEE1vAI

 

Comments?

 

Christopher Vedeler

Oasis Acupuncture

www.oasisacupuncture.com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The media seem to be reporting this study in different ways. I sow a line

account on CNN saying the study showed no better result than regular care

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Kim Blankenship

Chinese Medicine

Monday, September 24, 2007 11:46 PM

Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

 

This study was also the focus of a story on ABC's national news tonight:

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3645275 & affil=knxv

 

On 9/24/07, Christopher Vedeler <vedeler wrote:

>

> I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this article on

> the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

> " sham " acupuncture.

>

>

>

http://news./s/ap/20070925/ap_on_he_me/back_pain_acupuncture_13;_ylt=Al\

4sdvFVJmD9Py.SqpSk6QEE1vAI

>

> Comments?

>

> Christopher Vedeler

> Oasis Acupuncture

> www.oasisacupuncture.com

>

>

 

--

Take care -

 

Kim

 

Om Namah Shivaya

 

[Guest guest]

I pleased that we are getting the positive press, but i'm am concerned

about the message about acu that this article/study sends: it doesn't matter

where the needles go (monkeys could do it), could be mere placebo effect.

how do others view the message this article and its findings send out that

sham acu is equallty effective to true acu?

 

kb

 

 

 

On 9/25/07, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

>

> This may be true but if true acupuncture does not get better result than

> sham why does anyone need to study? I do not think we can just dismiss

> negative studies

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

> Tom Verhaeghe

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:07 AM

> Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

>

> as one of my teachers put it:

>

> " sham " acupuncture always needles at least the mesenchyme - the tissues

> which have been suggested by Matsumoto & Birch to be the substrate through

> which the exchange of information (qi?) happens in the self-regulating

> organism. So needling [the mesenchyme] may activate a homeostatic reflex

> and

> thus cause benefit and initiate the healing process.

> Hard to prove any of this, but theoretically I think it makes sense.

>

> Best,

>

> Tom.

> ----

>

> Christopher Vedeler

> 25/09/2007 10:47:29

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

>

> I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this article on

> the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

> " sham " acupuncture.

>

> http://news./s/ap/20070925/ap_on_he_me/back_pain_acupuncture_13

> _ylt=Al4sdvFVJmD9Py.SqpSk6QEE1vAI

>

> Comments?

>

> Christopher Vedeler

> Oasis Acupuncture

> www.oasisacupuncture.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

What this means is that sham acupuncture is just as good as acupuncture done

by those who do not know how to do it. German MD's and Heilpraktikers are

Euro-wide famous for making sure there are little or no requirments on their

training for acupuncture.

Wait a minute. Isn't that sham treatment?

Has anyone actually looked at the study to see how the " practitioners "

actually picked the points, or did differentiation?

 

David Molony

 

In a message dated 9/25/07 12:30:08 PM, acukath writes:

 

 

>

> I pleased that we are getting the positive press, but i'm am concerned

> about the message about acu that this article/study sends: it doesn't matter

> where the needles go (monkeys could do it), could be mere placebo effect.

> how do others view the message this article and its findings send out that

> sham acu is equallty effective to true acu?

>

> kb

>

> On 9/25/07, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

> >

> > This may be true but if true acupuncture does not get better result than

> > sham why does anyone need to study? I do not think we can just dismiss

> > negative studies

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > www.integrativeheal www.integr ww

> > -

> > Tom Verhaeghe

> > Traditional_Traditional_<wbrTraditional_Tra<Traditional_Traditional_<

> wbrTraditional_<wbTra>

> > Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:07 AM

> > Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

> >

> > as one of my teachers put it:

> >

> > " sham " acupuncture always needles at least the mesenchyme - the tissues

> > which have been suggested by Matsumoto & Birch to be the substrate through

> > which the exchange of information (qi?) happens in the self-regulating

> > organism. So needling [the mesenchyme] may activate a homeostatic reflex

> > and

> > thus cause benefit and initiate the healing process.

> > Hard to prove any of this, but theoretically I think it makes sense.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> > Tom.

> > -- -

> >

> > Christopher Vedeler

> > 25/09/2007 10:47:29

> > Traditional_Traditional_<wbrTraditional_Tra<Traditional_Traditional_<

> wbrTraditional_<wbTra>

> > Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

> >

> > I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this article on

> > the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

> > " sham " acupuncture.

> >

> > http://news.http://newhttp://news.<whttp://nehttp://news.http://news.ht

> > _ylt=Al4sdvFVJmD9Py _ylt=Al4sdvFV

> >

> > Comments?

> >

> > Christopher Vedeler

> > Oasis Acupuncture

> > www.oasisacupunctur www.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Then you have to wonder why, if “monkeys can do it” why such vast

differences in results vary from practitioner to practitioner.

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Kath

Bartlett, MS, LAc

Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:29 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

 

 

I pleased that we are getting the positive press, but i'm am concerned

about the message about acu that this article/study sends: it doesn't matter

where the needles go (monkeys could do it), could be mere placebo effect.

how do others view the message this article and its findings send out that

sham acu is equallty effective to true acu?

 

kb

 

On 9/25/07, Alon Marcus <HYPERLINK

" alonmarcus%40wans.net " alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) -net> wrote:

>

> This may be true but if true acupuncture does not get better result than

> sham why does anyone need to study? I do not think we can just dismiss

> negative studies

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> www.integrativeheal-thmedicine.-com

> -

> Tom Verhaeghe

> HYPERLINK

" Chinese Medicine%40 " Traditional_-Chinese_

Medicine- (AT) (DOT) -com<Traditional_-Chinese_Medicine-%40.-com

>

> Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:07 AM

> Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

>

> as one of my teachers put it:

>

> " sham " acupuncture always needles at least the mesenchyme - the tissues

> which have been suggested by Matsumoto & Birch to be the substrate through

> which the exchange of information (qi?) happens in the self-regulating

> organism. So needling [the mesenchyme] may activate a homeostatic reflex

> and

> thus cause benefit and initiate the healing process.

> Hard to prove any of this, but theoretically I think it makes sense.

>

> Best,

>

> Tom.

> -----

>

> Christopher Vedeler

> 25/09/2007 10:47:29

> HYPERLINK

" Chinese Medicine%40 " Traditional_-Chinese_

Medicine- (AT) (DOT) -com<Traditional_-Chinese_Medicine-%40.-com

>

> Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

>

> I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this article on

> the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

> " sham " acupuncture.

>

> HYPERLINK

" http://news./s/ap/20070925/ap_on_he_me/back_pain_acupuncture_13 " ht

tp://news.-/-s/ap/20070925/-ap_on_he_-me/back_pain_-acupuncture_-13

> _ylt=Al4sdvFVJmD9Py-.SqpSk6QEE1vAI

>

> Comments?

>

> Christopher Vedeler

> Oasis Acupuncture

> www.oasisacupunctur-e.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Anyone have a link to a study that shows efficacy is related to who performed

acupuncture (hours of acu education)?

I cannot seem to find it. ThanksMike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

http://club.live.com/seekadoo.aspx?icid=seek_wlmailtextlink

 

 

[Guest guest]

My thots:

 

1. Any press is good press. Seems to be true, because if you're in the press, by

default you are important.

2. Beyond achieving importance, there has got to be education, and that will

_not_ happen through the press.

3. Education will happen through doctor -> patient relationships, PERIOD.

 

Keep at it, everyone!

 

ps1 - of course Doc->Px relationships are of many different sorts, i.e.

seminars, mini-courses, actual treatments, grade school curricula and so on

(even Doc->Px->media as in Oprah. But again, it was still a doc->px relationship

that brought that piece of education about).

ps2 - education does not happen via media because media is not interested in

resolutions, but rather in stirring up the poop. Pomeranz, Beck and many others

have demonstrated the WESTERN CONCRETE REALITY of acu channels and points

already. Have to wait for the grandstanding to die down so " we " can see the

results.

 

Hugo

 

 

Barbara Beale <bbeale

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, 25 September, 2007 10:31:00 AM

RE: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

Then you have to wonder why, if “monkeys can do it” why such vast

differences in results vary from practitioner to practitioner.

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Kath

Bartlett, MS, LAc

Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:29 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

 

 

I pleased that we are getting the positive press, but i'm am concerned

about the message about acu that this article/study sends: it doesn't matter

where the needles go (monkeys could do it), could be mere placebo effect.

how do others view the message this article and its findings send out that

sham acu is equallty effective to true acu?

 

kb

 

On 9/25/07, Alon Marcus <HYPERLINK

" alonmarcus%40wans.net " alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) -net> wrote:

>

> This may be true but if true acupuncture does not get better result than

> sham why does anyone need to study? I do not think we can just dismiss

> negative studies

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> www.integrativeheal-thmedicine.-com

> -

> Tom Verhaeghe

> HYPERLINK

" Chinese Medicine%40 " Traditional_-Chinese_

Medicine- (AT) (DOT) -com<Traditional_-Chinese_Medicine-%40.-com

>

> Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:07 AM

> Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

>

> as one of my teachers put it:

>

> " sham " acupuncture always needles at least the mesenchyme - the tissues

> which have been suggested by Matsumoto & Birch to be the substrate through

> which the exchange of information (qi?) happens in the self-regulating

> organism. So needling [the mesenchyme] may activate a homeostatic reflex

> and

> thus cause benefit and initiate the healing process.

> Hard to prove any of this, but theoretically I think it makes sense.

>

> Best,

>

> Tom.

> -----

>

> Christopher Vedeler

> 25/09/2007 10:47:29

> HYPERLINK

" Chinese Medicine%40 " Traditional_-Chinese_

Medicine- (AT) (DOT) -com<Traditional_-Chinese_Medicine-%40.-com

>

> Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

>

> I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this article on

> the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

> " sham " acupuncture.

>

> HYPERLINK

" http://news./s/ap/20070925/ap_on_he_me/back_pain_acupuncture_13 " ht

tp://news.-/-s/ap/20070925/-ap_on_he_-me/back_pain_-acupuncture_-13

> _ylt=Al4sdvFVJmD9Py-.SqpSk6QEE1vAI

>

> Comments?

>

> Christopher Vedeler

> Oasis Acupuncture

> www.oasisacupunctur-e.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

I understand, Alon, and I'm not dismissing this study (is it really

negative?) but I'm also saying that there is probably still a lot going on

that we cannot yet fully explain.

Stephen Birch has commented quite extensively on some of these German

studies- have you read his comments? Are we actually talking about a new

study here or about the one that was published some time ago, with similar

results (AP=shamAP)?

 

Tom.

 

----

 

Alon Marcus

25/09/2007 19:44:25

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

This may be true but if true acupuncture does not get better result than

sham why does anyone need to study? I do not think we can just dismiss

negative studies

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Tom Verhaeghe

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:07 AM

Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

as one of my teachers put it:

 

" sham " acupuncture always needles at least the mesenchyme - the tissues

which have been suggested by Matsumoto & Birch to be the substrate through

which the exchange of information (qi?) happens in the self-regulating

organism. So needling [the mesenchyme] may activate a homeostatic reflex and

thus cause benefit and initiate the healing process.

Hard to prove any of this, but theoretically I think it makes sense.

 

Best,

 

Tom.

----

 

Christopher Vedeler

25/09/2007 10:47:29

Chinese Medicine

Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this article on

the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

" sham " acupuncture.

 

http://news./s/ap/20070925/ap_on_he_me/back_pain_acupuncture_13

_ylt=Al4sdvFVJmD9Py.SqpSk6QEE1vAI

 

Comments?

 

Christopher Vedeler

Oasis Acupuncture

www.oasisacupuncture.com

 

 

[Guest guest]

this is an assoc. press piece. it would be helpful if we could find out

what the study is that was quoted, and get a copy of it. not sure how to do

that. . .

i'm guessing it's a recent study, hence the newsworthy item.

 

k

 

 

On 9/25/07, Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe wrote:

>

>

> I understand, Alon, and I'm not dismissing this study (is it really

> negative?) but I'm also saying that there is probably still a lot going on

> that we cannot yet fully explain.

> Stephen Birch has commented quite extensively on some of these German

> studies- have you read his comments? Are we actually talking about a new

> study here or about the one that was published some time ago, with similar

> results (AP=shamAP)?

>

> Tom.

>

> ----

>

> Alon Marcus

> 25/09/2007 19:44:25

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

>

> This may be true but if true acupuncture does not get better result than

> sham why does anyone need to study? I do not think we can just dismiss

> negative studies

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

> Tom Verhaeghe

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:07 AM

> Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

>

> as one of my teachers put it:

>

> " sham " acupuncture always needles at least the mesenchyme - the tissues

> which have been suggested by Matsumoto & Birch to be the substrate through

>

> which the exchange of information (qi?) happens in the self-regulating

> organism. So needling [the mesenchyme] may activate a homeostatic reflex

> and

> thus cause benefit and initiate the healing process.

> Hard to prove any of this, but theoretically I think it makes sense.

>

> Best,

>

> Tom.

> ----

>

> Christopher Vedeler

> 25/09/2007 10:47:29

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

>

> I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this article on

> the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

> " sham " acupuncture.

>

> http://news./s/ap/20070925/ap_on_he_me/back_pain_acupuncture_13

> _ylt=Al4sdvFVJmD9Py.SqpSk6QEE1vAI

>

> Comments?

>

> Christopher Vedeler

> Oasis Acupuncture

> www.oasisacupuncture.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Tom

Its a new study. Where can i read Birch's comments?

Alon

 

Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe wrote:

 

I understand, Alon, and I'm not dismissing this study (is it really

negative?) but I'm also saying that there is probably still a lot going on

that we cannot yet fully explain.

Stephen Birch has commented quite extensively on some of these German

studies- have you read his comments? Are we actually talking about a new

study here or about the one that was published some time ago, with similar

results (AP=shamAP)?

 

Tom.

 

----

 

Alon Marcus

25/09/2007 19:44:25

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

This may be true but if true acupuncture does not get better result than

sham why does anyone need to study? I do not think we can just dismiss

negative studies

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Tom Verhaeghe

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:07 AM

Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

as one of my teachers put it:

 

" sham " acupuncture always needles at least the mesenchyme - the tissues

which have been suggested by Matsumoto & Birch to be the substrate through

which the exchange of information (qi?) happens in the self-regulating

organism. So needling [the mesenchyme] may activate a homeostatic reflex and

thus cause benefit and initiate the healing process.

Hard to prove any of this, but theoretically I think it makes sense.

 

Best,

 

Tom.

----

 

Christopher Vedeler

25/09/2007 10:47:29

Chinese Medicine

Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this article on

the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

" sham " acupuncture.

 

http://news./s/ap/20070925/ap_on_he_me/back_pain_acupuncture_13

_ylt=Al4sdvFVJmD9Py.SqpSk6QEE1vAI

 

Comments?

 

Christopher Vedeler

Oasis Acupuncture

www.oasisacupuncture.com

 

 

[Guest guest]

Kath,

 

If you are talking about the study quoted last night on ABC news, I

believe this is it.

 

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/17/1892?

maxtoshow= & HITS=10 & hits=10 & RESULTFORMAT= & fulltext=acupuncture & searchi

d=1 & FIRSTINDEX=0 & resourcetype=HWCIT

 

David K

 

***************************************************************

 

-- In Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett,

MS, LAc " wrote:

>

> this is an assoc. press piece. it would be helpful if we could

find out

> what the study is that was quoted, and get a copy of it. not sure

how to do

> that. . .

> i'm guessing it's a recent study, hence the newsworthy item.

>

> k

>

[Guest guest]

Attached you will find the " study " in question. I believe this is a, not

surptisingly, mish-mash of Western diagnostic physiatric criteria

sprinkled with an unacceptably unverifiable acupuncture method (e.g.

points from a " prescribed list " ?- The paper merits a critical look.

 

 

 

________________________________

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

acuman1

Tuesday, September 25, 2007 3:08 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

 

 

What this means is that sham acupuncture is just as good as acupuncture

done

by those who do not know how to do it. German MD's and Heilpraktikers

are

Euro-wide famous for making sure there are little or no requirments on

their

training for acupuncture.

Wait a minute. Isn't that sham treatment?

Has anyone actually looked at the study to see how the " practitioners "

actually picked the points, or did differentiation?

 

David Molony

 

In a message dated 9/25/07 12:30:08 PM, acukath

<acukath%40gmail.com> writes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

There are several lurking variables in this type of study. Ted

Kaptchuk has gone to great lengths to demonstrate the inefficiency of

using a sham protocol with acu, and one can postulate that any

modality that has physical contact as a major form of the treatment

(ie. chiro, trigger point, physical therapy) has the difficulty if

not inability to address the relationship of the practitioner and the

patient as a contributing factor. This variable alone and there are

more, dismisses these studies, neither sham nor " real " acupuncture

demonstrate that they can separate from this interaction. It's just

that simple.

Tymothy

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus wrote:

>

> The media seem to be reporting this study in different ways. I sow a

line account on CNN saying the study showed no better result than

regular care

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

> Kim Blankenship

> Chinese Medicine

> Monday, September 24, 2007 11:46 PM

> Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

>

>

> This study was also the focus of a story on ABC's national news

tonight:

>

> http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3645275 & affil=knxv

>

> On 9/24/07, Christopher Vedeler <vedeler wrote:

> >

> > I get my news from news. I was surprised to find this

article on

> > the top on the health care news. I'm always curious what constitutes

> > " sham " acupuncture.

> >

> >

> >

http://news./s/ap/20070925/ap_on_he_me/back_pain_acupuncture_13;_ylt=Al\

4sdvFVJmD9Py.SqpSk6QEE1vAI

> >

> > Comments?

> >

> > Christopher Vedeler

> > Oasis Acupuncture

> > www.oasisacupuncture.com

> >

> >

>

> --

> Take care -

>

> Kim

>

> Om Namah Shivaya

>

>

[Guest guest]

am i missing something? where's the study here?

 

kb

 

 

On 9/25/07, mihail.calalb <mihail.calalb wrote:

>

> Attached you will find the " study " in question. I believe this is a, not

> surptisingly, mish-mash of Western diagnostic physiatric criteria

> sprinkled with an unacceptably unverifiable acupuncture method (e.g.

> points from a " prescribed list " ?- The paper merits a critical look.

>

> ________________________________

>

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>]

> On Behalf Of

> acuman1 <acuman1%40aol.com>

> Tuesday, September 25, 2007 3:08 PM

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

>

> What this means is that sham acupuncture is just as good as acupuncture

> done

> by those who do not know how to do it. German MD's and Heilpraktikers

> are

> Euro-wide famous for making sure there are little or no requirments on

> their

> training for acupuncture.

> Wait a minute. Isn't that sham treatment?

> Has anyone actually looked at the study to see how the " practitioners "

> actually picked the points, or did differentiation?

>

> David Molony

>

> In a message dated 9/25/07 12:30:08 PM, acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>

> <acukath% <acukath%25>40gmail.com> writes:

>

>

[Guest guest]

thanks, david.

 

it sure is vague on the details. . .

 

kath

 

 

On 9/25/07, David Karchmer <acuprof wrote:

>

> Kath,

>

> If you are talking about the study quoted last night on ABC news, I

> believe this is it.

>

> http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/17/1892?

> maxtoshow= & HITS=10 & hits=10 & RESULTFORMAT= & fulltext=acupuncture & searchi

> d=1 & FIRSTINDEX=0 & resourcetype=HWCIT

>

> David K

>

> ***************************************************************

>

> -- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " Kath Bartlett,

> MS, LAc " wrote:

> >

> > this is an assoc. press piece. it would be helpful if we could

> find out

> > what the study is that was quoted, and get a copy of it. not sure

> how to do

> > that. . .

> > i'm guessing it's a recent study, hence the newsworthy item.

> >

> > k

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Apologies to the group for having forgotten the restrictions. Here is the

link:

Arch Intern Med. 2007;167:1892-1898.

Regards,

Mihail Calalb

 

 

 

 

mihail.calalb

Tue 9/25/2007 3:26 PM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

 

Attached you will find the " study " in question. I believe this is a, not

surprisingly, mish-mash of Western diagnostic physiatric criteria

sprinkled with an unacceptably unverifiable acupuncture method (e.g.

points from a " prescribed list " ?- The paper merits a critical look.

 

________________________________

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

acuman1

Tuesday, September 25, 2007 3:08 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

What this means is that sham acupuncture is just as good as acupuncture

done

by those who do not know how to do it. German MD's and Heilpraktikers

are

Euro-wide famous for making sure there are little or no requirments on

their

training for acupuncture.

Wait a minute. Isn't that sham treatment?

Has anyone actually looked at the study to see how the " practitioners "

actually picked the points, or did differentiation?

 

David Molony

 

In a message dated 9/25/07 12:30:08 PM, acukath

<acukath%40gmail.com> writes:

 

 

[Guest guest]

Could you perhaps upload the study to the file section of this group-

attachments do not come through on this list.

 

Thanks,

 

Tom.

 

 

----

 

mihail.calalb

25/09/2007 23:31:44

Chinese Medicine

RE: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

Attached you will find the " study " in question. I believe this is a, not

surptisingly, mish-mash of Western diagnostic physiatric criteria

sprinkled with an unacceptably unverifiable acupuncture method (e.g.

points from a " prescribed list " ?- The paper merits a critical look.

 

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[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

I have sent you a copy of the Birch article that appeared in JCM.

 

Tom.

 

----

 

Alon Marcus

25/09/2007 23:12:07

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture and back pain in the news!

 

Hi Tom

Its a new study. Where can i read Birch's comments?

Alon

 

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[Guest guest]

I think it's great news. Non-acupuncturist called me and said " did you

hear the great news about acupuncture " . A lot of the general public

views this study as good news for acupuncture. The only negativity or

dismissal I am hearing about it are coming from the usual skeptics and

uh L.Ac.'s.

Bottom line is ACUPUNCTURE works twice as good than standard medical care.

 

Thanks,

Elie

TCM Directory

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