A SEASON OF COUGH

[Guest guest]

Dear all colleague,

It seems to me it is the cough season is coming. I have had a few

elders catching it and I 'd like to share my treatments and ideas.

Some coughs are very tough, but I always have luck in these cases.

 

Some patients of mine have thin fluid coming out from their noses "

running noses " , thin phlegm " damp " with severe cough. No headache,

normal eating with good appetite, good sleep and good bowel movement

and besides, there is no pain anywhere. It is getting worse in cold

weather, thin white coating and slippery tongue ( wet ), floating wiry

pulse.

Dx: I viewed this is as the deficiency case ( mostly from yang or

Qi deficiency ) which the body Qi cannot control nor transform the

body fluids properly. With the Yang or Qi deficiency the Wei Qi has no

back up, is unable to defend itself against the invasion ( viruses )in

the upperlayer. The floating wiry pulse represents the obstruction on

the superlayer ( skin ) which may pose some tensions or pains, but

patients had none. So this case is seen as the floating means

outerlayer problem, and the wiry means obstruction ( not wind nor

liver problem in this case ). Wiry here in this case, I see it as the

Qi and body fluids have rushed to the surface and are battling against

the invasion. They are losing the battle and the fluid was unable to

be in control caused dripping nose. However, I viewed this as the

viruses attacked the superlayer channels (not muscles, tendons nor

organs ) from Taiyang and moved deeply into Yangming channels and left

no traces.

Rx: Qi and body fluid is my main concern. But I chose K3 (

regulate Kid and Lu Qi ) for the Lu Qi controlling the fluid has a

deep root in Kidney. Within minutes the cough stopped. This will stop

at least for a few days or several days ( this is an experience .

However, to support my diagnosis I asked my patients to take 6-9

slices of fresh gingerroot, 1 tbs of honey, and 1 cup of hot water,

mixed them thoroughly and drink it while it is hot. Within minutes

this will dry some of the uncontrolled body fluids in the Yangming

channels and dried up the nose.

For further support, I had prescribed " Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan " . I

do not use Si Jun Zi wan, Liu Jun Zi Wan, nor Er Chen Wan because I

think the deep root of deficiency is from the Kidney " prenatal " not

SP-Sto ( postnatal ).

 

Some other cases which had some thick phlegm, difficult to expel.

Rx : S36 was used instead of S40 ( it is up to you ).

1 cup of hot water, 1/2 lemon, 1tbs of honey, mixed them up and

drink while it is hot. THis will dilute the thick phlegm.

Formular in this case : Liu Jun Zi wan. The root of problem is

different from the above case. Phlegm is thick and sticky is from too

much heat evaporating the fluids causing it thickenning. This is the

upperjiao problem and related to the postnatal Qi.

 

GOOD LUCK !!!!!!!!!!!

 

Nam Nguyen

Any ideas, different experiences or different treatments, please

share with our group TCM.

[Guest guest]

Dear Nam

 

I have a question, how do you know that the coughing is caused by viruses?

 

As we know that Autumn is the season of the lungs. Our body uses this

period of time to repair our lungs and dispose the cold energy that we

may be carrying. Coughing and sneezing are mechanisms that allow us

to do such. How does one know that the coughing is caused by viruses

rather than simply our body doing its thing?

 

Instead of stopping the fluid from building, it may be better to just

let it run its course and release through its natural course. Perhaps

add a bit of ginger tea and tons of rest to make sure that the body

gets rid of whatever it is that it's trying to get rid of.

 

Gary

[Guest guest]

Dear Gary,

Weather changes bring all kinds of dust,chemicals, allergents and

microbes in the air. Some microorganisms can cause infections ( most

of them are bacteria as pneumococcus, streptococus,

staphylococcus...)are treated effectively with antibiotics. Others can

cause some kinds of allergic reactions ( most of them are viruses )are

ineffective from all kinds of antibiotics.

Most of my patients are here to see their MDs and had used all

kinds of cough syrups and antibiotics, but ineffecive.

Usually, bacteria infection can manifest with certain fever as

exterior wind heat problem in TCM. Wind Cold in TCM I believe it is

from the viral infection ( from Qi deficiency or weakness of immune

system ). All lack immune system are vulnerable to viral invasion.

Cough and sneezing are mechanism of defense system to expel the

allergents, not pathogens. If they can expel all pathogens then how

can we get diseases or infected. To me I think they are reflect

mechanism in some ways but not a defense mechanism.

I do not think if we are coughing severely or have running nose all

times, our MDs or TCM will say this will be OK, leave them alone.

Dust, viruses and chemicals in the air are our pathogens depends

on the location of our habitats and our energies, lifestyles, we get

infected in different forms.

Get a ginger tea and plentiful of rest may not be enough, but you

can try............ This sounds like a flu treatment ( however, a flu

or influenza is some kinds of viral infection and will be resolved by

itself in 10 days or in 3wks ). Furthermore, the cough and running

nose I had seen people had it for years without any complications, but

is very annoying.

 

Thanks Gary for your questions... I probably need more help in giving

your good answers, my vocabulary is very limited...... If someone out

here can help Gary out in this matter, this is greatly appreciated.

 

Nam Nguyen

 

 

 

The infections caused by bacteria --- In

Chinese Medicine , " Gary Wu "

<mcmhealth wrote:

>

> Dear Nam

>

> I have a question, how do you know that the coughing is caused by

viruses?

>

> As we know that Autumn is the season of the lungs. Our body uses this

> period of time to repair our lungs and dispose the cold energy that we

> may be carrying. Coughing and sneezing are mechanisms that allow us

> to do such. How does one know that the coughing is caused by viruses

> rather than simply our body doing its thing?

>

> Instead of stopping the fluid from building, it may be better to just

> let it run its course and release through its natural course. Perhaps

> add a bit of ginger tea and tons of rest to make sure that the body

> gets rid of whatever it is that it's trying to get rid of.

>

> Gary

>

[Guest guest]

gary,

 

please help me understand your reasoning.

 

it is my understanding that cough of any kind

is considered a pathology of qi counterflow.

 

coughing looses qi, how can that be " a good thing " ?

 

are you thinking cough is a form of " detox " of the lungs?

 

thanks so much,

jean

 

 

> As we know that Autumn is the season of the lungs. Our body uses

this

> period of time to repair our lungs and dispose the cold energy

that we

> may be carrying. Coughing and sneezing are mechanisms that allow

us

> to do such. How does one know that the coughing is caused by

viruses

> rather than simply our body doing its thing?

[Guest guest]

Dear Nam and Jean

 

In the Huangdi Neijing, I think it's translated to the " Inner Canon of

Yellow Emperor " or " Basic Questions of Internal Medicine " , there is a

section that talks exclusively about coughing, the causes and uses of

it. In the scripture, it says that coughing can be caused by every

Zang and Fu. The Wind Illness (Fung Xie), which includes 2 parts, the

Wind Cold (Or Cold Energy), and Xie Qi (External Infection) that each

Zang and Fu carries may be transferred to the lungs and will cause

coughing, however, such coughs should not be considered caused by the

lungs. The scripture also indicates clearly the times during the year

that your internal organ will be damaged by cold energy. If cold

energy enters in spring, the liver will be damaged, if in summer, the

heart will be damaged, if in mid-summer, the spleen will be damaged,

if in autumn, the lungs will be damaged, and finally, if in winter,

the kidney will be damaged.

 

The whole thing goes on and on and talks about various types of cough.

I am not going to post it all here since it's just too much

information. But the point I am making is that there are many

different types of coughing and many different causes for coughing. I

don't think it is accurate that we over-generalize coughing.

" Coughing as a pathology of qi counterflow or coughing is a mechanism

for disposing allergents " may be one of the many things that is true

about coughing, but not all. To see the big picture, we will have to

be able to tell what the patient's general body energy level is. If

the patient is healthy, then the coughing may be just the body

disposing the cold energy. If the patient's body energy is low, say

at the level of Ying Yang depletion, then the coughing may be quite

hazardous.

 

As for the season change, I am not quite familiar on the changes in

the amount of allergents and microorganisms for each season. But I

was under the impression that as the weather gets colder, like from

summer to autumn, there is actually less allergents in the air. From

winter to spring is another story as the temperature rises and

allergies become more frequent. Again, I may be completely wrong on

this as this is just my personal observation.

 

Thanks for your kind replies. More input from others is appreciated.

 

Gary

[Guest guest]

Hi Gary,

 

This is fascinating, about the different organs and seasons regarding cough.

Thank you for posting this.

 

As for seasonal allergens, I believe this varies from place to place. Where I

live in northern Arizona, we have different seasonal allergens in spring,

summer, fall and winter. The junipers apparently have two blooming seasons

here, spring and autumn, and this is the most frequent allergic offender

locally. We also have ragweed blooming from late summer through the first

frost. Fall and winter bring molds and fungi. Spring brings pollen from the

trees. I continue to be surprised at how severe and common allergies are here,

in the high desert, where, presumably, little grows. But it is also greatly

windy here, and I think the wind factor accounts for the severity of the allergy

symptoms we see here. The severity and yaer-round cycle of allergies is more

extreme here than both the east and west coasts of the US, where I had spent

most of my life. By the coasts, allergies seem to occur mostly in summer and

early autumn.

 

Something I have seen frequently here is severe allergies turning into acute

respiratory infections - allergic bronchitis, allergic strep throat, etc. I

myself have twice had allergic reactions after weeding this year, which caused

the lymph nodes around UB-10, GB-20, and ST-11 to swell like balloons, with

intense itching and pain, with no systemic symptoms. It took about a week for

the swelling to resolve. I didn't even know we had lymph nodes in those places,

nor that they could swell so large!

 

 

 

Gary Wu <mcmhealth wrote: Dear Nam and Jean

 

In the Huangdi Neijing, I think it's translated to the " Inner Canon of

Yellow Emperor " or " Basic Questions of Internal Medicine " , there is a

section that talks exclusively about coughing, the causes and uses of

it. In the scripture, it says that coughing can be caused by every

Zang and Fu. The Wind Illness (Fung Xie), which includes 2 parts, the

Wind Cold (Or Cold Energy), and Xie Qi (External Infection) that each

Zang and Fu carries may be transferred to the lungs and will cause

coughing, however, such coughs should not be considered caused by the

lungs. The scripture also indicates clearly the times during the year

that your internal organ will be damaged by cold energy. If cold

energy enters in spring, the liver will be damaged, if in summer, the

heart will be damaged, if in mid-summer, the spleen will be damaged,

if in autumn, the lungs will be damaged, and finally, if in winter,

the kidney will be damaged.

 

The whole thing goes on and on and talks about various types of cough.

I am not going to post it all here since it's just too much

information. But the point I am making is that there are many

different types of coughing and many different causes for coughing. I

don't think it is accurate that we over-generalize coughing.

" Coughing as a pathology of qi counterflow or coughing is a mechanism

for disposing allergents " may be one of the many things that is true

about coughing, but not all. To see the big picture, we will have to

be able to tell what the patient's general body energy level is. If

the patient is healthy, then the coughing may be just the body

disposing the cold energy. If the patient's body energy is low, say

at the level of Ying Yang depletion, then the coughing may be quite

hazardous.

 

As for the season change, I am not quite familiar on the changes in

the amount of allergents and microorganisms for each season. But I

was under the impression that as the weather gets colder, like from

summer to autumn, there is actually less allergents in the air. From

winter to spring is another story as the temperature rises and

allergies become more frequent. Again, I may be completely wrong on

this as this is just my personal observation.

 

Thanks for your kind replies. More input from others is appreciated.

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Gary,

 

Would you mind providing the chapter in the Nei Jing where it talks

about that? I would like to read further.

 

Many Thanks

 

David Toone, MSOM, L.Ac.

 

 

On Sep 30, 2007, at 11:15 AM, wrote:

 

> Hi Gary,

>

> This is fascinating, about the different organs and seasons

> regarding cough. Thank you for posting this.

>

> As for seasonal allergens, I believe this varies from place to

> place. Where I live in northern Arizona, we have different seasonal

> allergens in spring, summer, fall and winter. The junipers

> apparently have two blooming seasons here, spring and autumn, and

> this is the most frequent allergic offender locally. We also have

> ragweed blooming from late summer through the first frost. Fall and

> winter bring molds and fungi. Spring brings pollen from the trees.

> I continue to be surprised at how severe and common allergies are

> here, in the high desert, where, presumably, little grows. But it

> is also greatly windy here, and I think the wind factor accounts

> for the severity of the allergy symptoms we see here. The severity

> and yaer-round cycle of allergies is more extreme here than both

> the east and west coasts of the US, where I had spent most of my

> life. By the coasts, allergies seem to occur mostly in summer and

> early autumn.

>

> Something I have seen frequently here is severe allergies turning

> into acute respiratory infections - allergic bronchitis, allergic

> strep throat, etc. I myself have twice had allergic reactions after

> weeding this year, which caused the lymph nodes around UB-10,

> GB-20, and ST-11 to swell like balloons, with intense itching and

> pain, with no systemic symptoms. It took about a week for the

> swelling to resolve. I didn't even know we had lymph nodes in those

> places, nor that they could swell so large!

>

>

>

> Gary Wu <mcmhealth wrote: Dear Nam and Jean

>

> In the Huangdi Neijing, I think it's translated to the " Inner Canon of

> Yellow Emperor " or " Basic Questions of Internal Medicine " , there is a

> section that talks exclusively about coughing, the causes and uses of

> it. In the scripture, it says that coughing can be caused by every

> Zang and Fu. The Wind Illness (Fung Xie), which includes 2 parts, the

> Wind Cold (Or Cold Energy), and Xie Qi (External Infection) that each

> Zang and Fu carries may be transferred to the lungs and will cause

> coughing, however, such coughs should not be considered caused by the

> lungs. The scripture also indicates clearly the times during the year

> that your internal organ will be damaged by cold energy. If cold

> energy enters in spring, the liver will be damaged, if in summer, the

> heart will be damaged, if in mid-summer, the spleen will be damaged,

> if in autumn, the lungs will be damaged, and finally, if in winter,

> the kidney will be damaged.

>

> The whole thing goes on and on and talks about various types of cough.

> I am not going to post it all here since it's just too much

> information. But the point I am making is that there are many

> different types of coughing and many different causes for coughing. I

> don't think it is accurate that we over-generalize coughing.

> " Coughing as a pathology of qi counterflow or coughing is a mechanism

> for disposing allergents " may be one of the many things that is true

> about coughing, but not all. To see the big picture, we will have to

> be able to tell what the patient's general body energy level is. If

> the patient is healthy, then the coughing may be just the body

> disposing the cold energy. If the patient's body energy is low, say

> at the level of Ying Yang depletion, then the coughing may be quite

> hazardous.

>

> As for the season change, I am not quite familiar on the changes in

> the amount of allergents and microorganisms for each season. But I

> was under the impression that as the weather gets colder, like from

> summer to autumn, there is actually less allergents in the air. From

> winter to spring is another story as the temperature rises and

> allergies become more frequent. Again, I may be completely wrong on

> this as this is just my personal observation.

>

> Thanks for your kind replies. More input from others is appreciated.

>

> Gary

>

> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

> Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese

> medicine and acupuncture, click, http://

> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>

> http://

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

> the group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> absolutely necessary.

>

[Guest guest]

thank you gary for your further elaboration.

interestingly enough, i was reading the HDNJ recently so i

could talk to my patients about autumn and how to prepare

for winter and spring.

i did read the passage you posted.

 

i enjoy hearing how others interpret passages.

 

i for one, would never consider " cough " as a treatment

method to expel cold (i think that is what you are saying).

 

as far as seasonal allergy treatments, try local, raw

unprocessed honey and/or pollen. while not TCM, the

honey has been shown to decrease the symptoms of allergies.

(i'm also a part-time beekeeper).

 

be well and thank you for sharing your thoughts.

jean

[Guest guest]

Dear Gary,

It is good that we can go back to Huang Ti for reference, but it is

the reference, not a sole diagnosis.

The geographic areas and time are different than where we are at

this time. Beside, there are all kinds of pathogens in different

period and in those periods might not have discovered. The best for us

to learn is to observe, gather all information, analyze and then put

in practice.

The cough as you had mention probably is a part of reflect mechanism

when are choking from food or from inhalation of some strong chemicals

or some kinds of gases. But if the cough persists days after days we

should not ignore it and claim that as as defensive mechanism. Some

lung abscesses, inflammation cancers or another cause could also be a

claim.

Upper Respiratory Tract can be easily attacked by exopathogenic

factors, but it can be caused by the lifestyle ( metal problem,

depression, anger, dietary, chemical imbalance, enviorment factors,

weather.... ). We should observe at all angles not assuming.

The cases I presented earlier are samples of clinical results in my

office, a narrow scape of one individual experience. Other TCM may

have come across and viewed them in different corners, but the fact

is, how sucessfully can we treat them.......... As I had stated in

previous writing, SOME COUGH ARE VERY TOUGH. Many of us, TCM, are

still facing the headache of this problem.

 

However,Gary, I should thank to you that you had looked into it and

aired your view. The more information gathered , observation ,

analysis and practicallity will bring us closer to become experts.

 

Thanks,

GOOD LUCK !!!

Nam Nguyen

[Guest guest]

Dear David

 

In Huangdi Neijing there is a specific chapter regarding coughing.

It's called " Ke Lun chapter " (Excuse my pin-yin). It's chapter 38 in

my edition, you can try to see if it's the same as yours.

 

My opinion on the Huangdi Neijing is that there are many many

different ways of interpreting the scripture and from my experience it

is difficult to find text that's written by someone who truly

understands the scripture completely. It's perhaps one of the most

fascinating literature that's out there and some of the concepts it

holds just seems way past its time.

 

I am actually a bit surprised that the idea of coughing being a

mechanism for expelling cold energy seems new to some. From my

understanding, cold energy are stored in various forms, gas being one

of them. Sneezing and coughing are one of the ways of disposing the

gas form of cold energy, phlegm and nasal mucus being the liquid.

Again, this is my interpretation of cold energy and it has for the

most part been consistent amongst the TCM practitioners that I have

been in contact with. However, because I am from Taiwan, almost all

of the TCM practitioners I know are also from Taiwan and various parts

of China. Perhaps the concepts differ from place to place because of

different backgrounds.

 

The idea of body's various symptoms being signs of healing is not that

uncommon even outside of TCM. I believe the term is " Healing Crisis "

in modern medicine. The term refers to patients developing symptoms

of illness yet they are actually signs of healing. I believe that

such concept is relatively new (Or perhaps just new to me? ha) and is

actually quite similar to some of the TCM concepts. Perhaps later on

I can elaborate more on this as it's quite interesting.

 

Gary

[Guest guest]

Hi all (please excuse if this is a repost),

There is probably more agreement on this topic than seems evident. I thought

I'd give a shot at bringing things together.

 

There is no mistaking a pathological cough as being healthy and vice versa.

There is no mistaking a deficiency kidney-not-grasping-the-qi breath release to

a cough that is expelling an excess pathogen. On the other hand, small coughs to

expel some saliva from the bronchial tubes are almost exactly the same as the

small coughs expelling stress that we hear in quiet exam rooms. Of course, the

former is substantial and the latter insubstantial.

 

Having said that, it is easy to forget that the body's natural reactions can

themselves be used. This is one of the reasons I believe that everyone who

practices CM should learn Tai Chi, Qi Gong, at least some calligraphy, and at

least some of the language. In this instance, the practice of Qi Gong makes it

very evident that coughing can expel pathogenic factors. There are whole Qi Gong

sets built around this purpose.

 

Hope that this also gives some insight,

Hugo

 

 

Gary Wu <mcmhealth

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, 2 October, 2007 9:59:53 AM

Re: A SEASON OF COUGH

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear David

 

 

 

In Huangdi Neijing there is a specific chapter regarding coughing.

 

It's called " Ke Lun chapter " (Excuse my pin-yin). It's chapter 38 in

 

my edition, you can try to see if it's the same as yours.

 

 

 

My opinion on the Huangdi Neijing is that there are many many

 

different ways of interpreting the scripture and from my experience it

 

is difficult to find text that's written by someone who truly

 

understands the scripture completely. It's perhaps one of the most

 

fascinating literature that's out there and some of the concepts it

 

holds just seems way past its time.

 

 

 

I am actually a bit surprised that the idea of coughing being a

 

mechanism for expelling cold energy seems new to some. From my

 

understanding, cold energy are stored in various forms, gas being one

 

of them. Sneezing and coughing are one of the ways of disposing the

 

gas form of cold energy, phlegm and nasal mucus being the liquid.

 

Again, this is my interpretation of cold energy and it has for the

 

most part been consistent amongst the TCM practitioners that I have

 

been in contact with. However, because I am from Taiwan, almost all

 

of the TCM practitioners I know are also from Taiwan and various parts

 

of China. Perhaps the concepts differ from place to place because of

 

different backgrounds.

 

 

 

The idea of body's various symptoms being signs of healing is not that

 

uncommon even outside of TCM. I believe the term is " Healing Crisis "

 

in modern medicine. The term refers to patients developing symptoms

 

of illness yet they are actually signs of healing. I believe that

 

such concept is relatively new (Or perhaps just new to me? ha) and is

 

actually quite similar to some of the TCM concepts. Perhaps later on

 

I can elaborate more on this as it's quite interesting.

 

 

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{

text-decoration:underline;}

#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{

margin:0;}

o{font-size:0;}

..MsoNormal{

margin:0 0 0 0;}

#ygrp-text tt{

font-size:120%;}

blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}

..replbq{margin:4;}

-->

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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