Good alternative for Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin?

[Guest guest]

Dear Colleagues,

A current client has a strong Liver Yang rising

pattern with Liver wind stirring and a major sleep problem long term.

He seems to respond best to Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin however adaptation

can occur and the effect falls off I have tried substituting with Zhen

Zhu Mu Wan but this only had negiligible effect on the sleep pattern.

We have tried many strategies over the years usually with a degree of

success before adaptation occurs. TMGTY has given the best and longest

sleep for the longest time. He has Bob Flaws book on sleep and has

even asked me to try some custom formulas from that with limited

success.

 

If anyone can suggest a suitable replacement or strategy I would be

most grateful.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

[Guest guest]

Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin is a fairly common Rx. You can get the Rx from

Mayway Corp and other herbal suppliers.

 

Why need a substitute?

 

On Nov 22, 2007 6:17 AM, herbsandhelpers <herbsandhelpers wrote:

>

>

>

>

> Dear Colleagues,

> A current client has a strong Liver Yang rising

> pattern with Liver wind stirring and a major sleep problem long term.

> He seems to respond best to Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin however adaptation

> can occur and the effect falls off I have tried substituting with Zhen

> Zhu Mu Wan but this only had negiligible effect on the sleep pattern.

> We have tried many strategies over the years usually with a degree of

> success before adaptation occurs. TMGTY has given the best and longest

> sleep for the longest time. He has Bob Flaws book on sleep and has

> even asked me to try some custom formulas from that with limited

> success.

>

> If anyone can suggest a suitable replacement or strategy I would be

> most grateful.

>

> Thanks in advance,

>

> Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

>

>

 

 

 

--

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com

[Guest guest]

Have you considered Da Ding Feng Zhu?

 

Greg

 

Chinese Medicine , " herbsandhelpers "

<herbsandhelpers wrote:

>

> Dear Colleagues,

> A current client has a strong Liver Yang rising

> pattern with Liver wind stirring and a major sleep problem long term.

> He seems to respond best to Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin however adaptation

> can occur and the effect falls off I have tried substituting with Zhen

> Zhu Mu Wan but this only had negiligible effect on the sleep pattern.

> We have tried many strategies over the years usually with a degree of

> success before adaptation occurs. TMGTY has given the best and longest

> sleep for the longest time. He has Bob Flaws book on sleep and has

> even asked me to try some custom formulas from that with limited

> success.

>

> If anyone can suggest a suitable replacement or strategy I would be

> most grateful.

>

> Thanks in advance,

>

> Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Robert Chu "

<chusauli wrote:

>

> Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin is a fairly common Rx. You can get the Rx from

> Mayway Corp and other herbal suppliers.

>

> Why need a substitute?

>

 

Dear Robert,

Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin works very well for a short time

before adaptation occurs! This is why I need a substitute in the mean

time since often a change of herbs can induce the effect back. We can

probably go back to it at a later time! I am a supplier of KPC herbs

so I have no issues with obtaining herb supplies.

 

Thanks,

 

Lorraine.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Greg A.

Livingston " <drlivingston wrote:

>

> Have you considered Da Ding Feng Zhu?

>

> Greg

 

No but looking at this formula it doesn't seem to have a strong action

on suppressing Liver Yang which is by far the most active aspect of

his condition. Maybe I need more than one formula to do the job?

 

Lorraine.

[Guest guest]

Oh, I see. Thank you!

 

Try tonifying the Kidney to sedate Liver Wind, and their will be less

" adaptation " . Then try to tonify the St/Sp and it will treat LIver

insulting wood (i.e. control the liver). Then you can still use Tian

Ma Gou Teng Yin when you need. Also, Long Dan Xie Gan Tang can help

in a pinch to sedate Liver Wind.

 

On Nov 23, 2007 2:58 AM, herbsandhelpers <herbsandhelpers wrote:

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Robert Chu "

>

> <chusauli wrote:

> >

> > Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin is a fairly common Rx. You can get the Rx from

> > Mayway Corp and other herbal suppliers.

> >

> > Why need a substitute?

> >

>

> Dear Robert,

> Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin works very well for a short time

> before adaptation occurs! This is why I need a substitute in the mean

> time since often a change of herbs can induce the effect back. We can

> probably go back to it at a later time! I am a supplier of KPC herbs

> so I have no issues with obtaining herb supplies.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Lorraine.

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Lorraine,

 

If you give us more info maybe we can help. What is the pathogenesis? Is it yin

deficiency

causing the liver yang to rise, or excess heat, or what? Tongue and pulse would

be helpful,

of course.

 

Best,

 

Greg

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " herbsandhelpers "

<herbsandhelpers wrote:

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Greg A.

> Livingston " <drlivingston@> wrote:

> >

> > Have you considered Da Ding Feng Zhu?

> >

> > Greg

>

> No but looking at this formula it doesn't seem to have a strong action

> on suppressing Liver Yang which is by far the most active aspect of

> his condition. Maybe I need more than one formula to do the job?

>

> Lorraine.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Robert,

I am not trained in acupuncture only in herbs can you

outline a more herbal based strategy please.

 

Lorraine.

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Robert Chu "

<chusauli wrote:

>

> Oh, I see. Thank you!

>

> Try tonifying the Kidney to sedate Liver Wind, and their will be

less

> " adaptation " . Then try to tonify the St/Sp and it will treat LIver

> insulting wood (i.e. control the liver). Then you can still use

Tian

> Ma Gou Teng Yin when you need. Also, Long Dan Xie Gan Tang can help

> in a pinch to sedate Liver Wind.

>

> On Nov 23, 2007 2:58 AM, herbsandhelpers <herbsandhelpers

wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Robert Chu "

> >

> > <chusauli@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin is a fairly common Rx. You can get the Rx

from

> > > Mayway Corp and other herbal suppliers.

> > >

> > > Why need a substitute?

> > >

> >

> > Dear Robert,

> > Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin works very well for a short time

> > before adaptation occurs! This is why I need a substitute in the

mean

> > time since often a change of herbs can induce the effect back. We

can

> > probably go back to it at a later time! I am a supplier of KPC

herbs

> > so I have no issues with obtaining herb supplies.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Lorraine.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

> chusauli

>

> See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Greg,

The Liver Yang rising symptoms dominate the picture red

face, sweating, anxiety, previous raised BP, insomnia etc. The last

pulse reading was SP, Heart, Liver and Kidney Xu with tongue sligthly

pale with a greasy coating.

 

Using the TMGTY signifcantly reduces the emotional aspects and 4-5

hours of sleep are possible.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Lorraine.

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Greg A.

Livingston " <drlivingston wrote:

>

> Hi Lorraine,

>

> If you give us more info maybe we can help. What is the

pathogenesis? Is it yin deficiency

> causing the liver yang to rise, or excess heat, or what? Tongue and

pulse would be helpful,

> of course.

>

> Best,

>

> Greg

>

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine , " herbsandhelpers "

> <herbsandhelpers@> wrote:

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Greg A.

> > Livingston " <drlivingston@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Have you considered Da Ding Feng Zhu?

> > >

> > > Greg

> >

> > No but looking at this formula it doesn't seem to have a strong

action

> > on suppressing Liver Yang which is by far the most active aspect

of

> > his condition. Maybe I need more than one formula to do the job?

> >

> > Lorraine.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Lorraine,

 

That is pure herbal based strategy....not acupuncture at all. You're

only going for the Liver Wind, but Liver Wind can be sedated with

building more Kidney Yin and strengthening the St/Sp. Think five

elements and you've got it.

 

Acupuncture is using the channels...none of these diagnosis fit

acupuncture in the true sense.

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Nov 26, 2007 2:33 AM, herbsandhelpers <herbsandhelpers wrote:

>

>

>

>

> Dear Robert,

> I am not trained in acupuncture only in herbs can you

> outline a more herbal based strategy please.

>

> Lorraine.

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Robert Chu "

> <chusauli wrote:

> >

> > Oh, I see. Thank you!

> >

> > Try tonifying the Kidney to sedate Liver Wind, and their will be

> less

> > " adaptation " . Then try to tonify the St/Sp and it will treat LIver

> > insulting wood (i.e. control the liver). Then you can still use

> Tian

> > Ma Gou Teng Yin when you need. Also, Long Dan Xie Gan Tang can help

> > in a pinch to sedate Liver Wind.

> >

> > On Nov 23, 2007 2:58 AM, herbsandhelpers <herbsandhelpers

>

> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine , " Robert Chu "

> > >

> > > <chusauli@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin is a fairly common Rx. You can get the Rx

> from

> > > > Mayway Corp and other herbal suppliers.

> > > >

> > > > Why need a substitute?

> > > >

> > >

> > > Dear Robert,

> > > Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin works very well for a short time

> > > before adaptation occurs! This is why I need a substitute in the

> mean

> > > time since often a change of herbs can induce the effect back. We

> can

> > > probably go back to it at a later time! I am a supplier of KPC

> herbs

> > > so I have no issues with obtaining herb supplies.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > Lorraine.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

> > chusauli

>

> >

> > See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com

> >

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com

[Guest guest]

How about pearl powder...

 

Chinese Medicine , " herbsandhelpers "

<herbsandhelpers wrote:

>

> Dear Greg,

> The Liver Yang rising symptoms dominate the picture red

> face, sweating, anxiety, previous raised BP, insomnia etc. The last

> pulse reading was SP, Heart, Liver and Kidney Xu with tongue sligthly

> pale with a greasy coating.

>

> Using the TMGTY signifcantly reduces the emotional aspects and 4-5

> hours of sleep are possible.

>

> Hope this helps,

>

> Lorraine.

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Greg A.

> Livingston " <drlivingston@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Lorraine,

> >

> > If you give us more info maybe we can help. What is the

> pathogenesis? Is it yin deficiency

> > causing the liver yang to rise, or excess heat, or what? Tongue and

> pulse would be helpful,

> > of course.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> > Greg

> >

> >

> > --- In

> Chinese Medicine , " herbsandhelpers "

> > <herbsandhelpers@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine , " Greg A.

> > > Livingston " <drlivingston@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Have you considered Da Ding Feng Zhu?

> > > >

> > > > Greg

> > >

> > > No but looking at this formula it doesn't seem to have a strong

> action

> > > on suppressing Liver Yang which is by far the most active aspect

> of

> > > his condition. Maybe I need more than one formula to do the job?

> > >

> > > Lorraine.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " jasonwcom "

<jasonwcom wrote:

>

Already tried! With minimal effect!

 

Lorraine.

 

 

> How about pearl powder...

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine , " herbsandhelpers "

> <herbsandhelpers@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Greg,

> > The Liver Yang rising symptoms dominate the picture red

> > face, sweating, anxiety, previous raised BP, insomnia etc. The

last

> > pulse reading was SP, Heart, Liver and Kidney Xu with tongue

sligthly

> > pale with a greasy coating.

> >

> > Using the TMGTY signifcantly reduces the emotional aspects and 4-

5

> > hours of sleep are possible.

> >

> > Hope this helps,

> >

> > Lorraine.

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Greg A.

> > Livingston " <drlivingston@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Lorraine,

> > >

> > > If you give us more info maybe we can help. What is the

> > pathogenesis? Is it yin deficiency

> > > causing the liver yang to rise, or excess heat, or what? Tongue

and

> > pulse would be helpful,

> > > of course.

> > >

> > > Best,

> > >

> > > Greg

> > >

> > >

> > > --- In

> > Chinese Medicine , " herbsandhelpers "

> > > <herbsandhelpers@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Chinese Medicine , " Greg A.

> > > > Livingston " <drlivingston@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Have you considered Da Ding Feng Zhu?

> > > > >

> > > > > Greg

> > > >

> > > > No but looking at this formula it doesn't seem to have a

strong

> > action

> > > > on suppressing Liver Yang which is by far the most active

aspect

> > of

> > > > his condition. Maybe I need more than one formula to do the

job?

> > > >

> > > > Lorraine.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>