Any further suggestions on Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin?

[Guest guest]

Thank you for all contributions so far received is there anything else

anyone can think of since my client is going on holiday next week.

 

Thanks again,

 

Lorraine.

[Guest guest]

Hi Lorraine,

 

I'm still not clear about the pathogenesis of your patient. You said the pulses

are deficient,

but showing what deficiencies? Qi, blood, yin, yang? The tongue is pale, but

Tian Ma Gou

Teng Yin is indicated for yin xu with liver yang rising, which usually presents

with red

tongue and not much coating. Could still use more detailed signs and symptoms,

such as

appetite, digestion, bowels, urination, etc.

 

Best,

 

Greg

 

Chinese Medicine , " herbsandhelpers "

<herbsandhelpers wrote:

>

> Thank you for all contributions so far received is there anything else

> anyone can think of since my client is going on holiday next week.

>

> Thanks again,

>

> Lorraine.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Greg,

Pulse: Spleen, Heart, Liver and Kidney Xu

Tongue: Slighly pale (body), Greasy coating, Red tip which comes and

goes depending on how well problem being treated. The tongue and

pulse constantly change quite rapidly.

 

Agitation of mind, cramping in calves, insomnia, high blood pressure,

tinnitus, sweating alot, nocturia, floaters etc.

 

I hope this enough to go on!

 

Lorraine.

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Greg A.

Livingston " <drlivingston wrote:

>

> Hi Lorraine,

>

> I'm still not clear about the pathogenesis of your patient. You

said the pulses are deficient,

> but showing what deficiencies? Qi, blood, yin, yang? The tongue is

pale, but Tian Ma Gou

> Teng Yin is indicated for yin xu with liver yang rising, which

usually presents with red

> tongue and not much coating. Could still use more detailed signs

and symptoms, such as

> appetite, digestion, bowels, urination, etc.

>

> Best,

>

> Greg

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine , " herbsandhelpers "

> <herbsandhelpers@> wrote:

> >

> > Thank you for all contributions so far received is there anything

else

> > anyone can think of since my client is going on holiday next week.

> >

> > Thanks again,

> >

> > Lorraine.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, I havent read much of the thread but you did say your patient had a

greasy tongue coat and this could suggest pinellia and gastrodia formula. Also,

I

often like to modify B and DB by adding gastrodia, uncaria, and whatever else

seems appropriate. Of ocurse, both are for XS conditions.............Regards,

Lonny Jarrett

 

 

**************************************

Check out AOL's list of

2007's hottest products.

 

(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Lorraine,

 

So far this is what we know about the patient if I am correct:

 

" A current client has a strong Liver Yang rising pattern with Liver wind

stirring and a major sleep problem long term. He seems to respond best to Tian

Ma Gou Teng Yin however adaptation can occur and the effect falls off I have

tried substituting with Zhen Zhu Mu Wan but this only had negligible effect on

the sleep pattern. We have tried many strategies over the years usually with a

degree of success before adaptation occurs.

 

The Liver Yang rising symptoms dominate the picture red face, sweating,

anxiety, previous raised BP, insomnia etc. The last pulse reading was SP, Heart,

Liver and Kidney Xu with tongue slightly pale with a greasy coating. "

 

First I think figuring out the etiology of this problem is important. If you

are using Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin, I would assume that there is an element of wind,

heat and liver involvement. From the pathology above, I do not see a wind

element, except as a secondary factor to the heat (raised BP). But you have a

deficient pulse, and apparently a deficient tongue. Then I take into account

that this is a long term pattern from “We have tried many strategies over the

years…”

 

My guess from the pattern that is presented above, is that this is a internal

heat problem, that is causing heat flaring upward, and at the same time burning

the qi, to make it appear to our objective signs that this patient is deficient,

when he is not.

 

I would want to know how much spicy food the patient is consuming, as well as

what kind of constitution he has – thin, heavy, etc. I would also want to know

about any significant cold exposures, and what kind of food that he craves.

Alcohol consumption and greasy food consumption are also factors here. Lastly

and most importantly, what is he doing with his Anger – is he a verbal person,

is he passive aggressive, does he “see red?”

 

So I might suggest a change of tact, if the Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin is not

working, perhaps some of these formulas might:

 

I ran a search on my Database, The Database (Chinese Medicine)

for Insomnia, and these are some results that I found interesting and possible

to your patients situation:

 

These are not going to be traditional uses of these formulas, but perhaps

worth a look.

 

Searched for Red Face

Dao Chi San

For: Irritability with a sensation of heat in the chest & heart, insomnia,

lots of dreams & nightmares, thirst with a desire to drink cold beverages, a red

face, possibly sores around mouth.

 

Jiang Ya Pian (Mayway)

For: High blood pressure with dizziness, uneasiness, stiff neck, distention

headache, red face.

 

Searched for Anxiety & Insomnia

An Shen Bu Xin Dan

For: Insomnia due to neurasthenia, dream disturbed sleep, nightmares,

irritability, restlessness, anxiety, palpitations, panic attacks, ptsd,

hypertension, sleep walking, anemia, headache, dizziness, poor memory, tinnitus.

 

These were just a few of the results that seemed like they might be pertinent

to your patient out of the many results that were returned in this search. If I

had more information I could narrow it down further.

 

I hope this helps with your quest for the perfect formula for this patient.

 

Sincerely,

 

L.Ac.

The Database

Chinese Medicine

 

 

 

herbsandhelpers <herbsandhelpers wrote:

Thank you for all contributions so far received is there anything else

anyone can think of since my client is going on holiday next week.

 

Thanks again,

 

Lorraine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

 

 

[Guest guest]

If the tian ma... works well, why not just double the dosage when

" tolorance " occurs?

Regards,

-JB

 

Chinese Medicine , jon schell

<jonk2012 wrote:

>

> Hello Lorraine,

>

> So far this is what we know about the patient if I am correct:

>

> " A current client has a strong Liver Yang rising pattern with

Liver wind stirring and a major sleep problem long term. He seems to

respond best to Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin however adaptation can occur and

the effect falls off I have tried substituting with Zhen Zhu Mu Wan

but this only had negligible effect on the sleep pattern. We have

tried many strategies over the years usually with a degree of success

before adaptation occurs.

>

> The Liver Yang rising symptoms dominate the picture red face,

sweating, anxiety, previous raised BP, insomnia etc. The last pulse

reading was SP, Heart, Liver and Kidney Xu with tongue slightly pale

with a greasy coating. "

>

> First I think figuring out the etiology of this problem is

important. If you are using Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin, I would assume that

there is an element of wind, heat and liver involvement. From the

pathology above, I do not see a wind element, except as a secondary

factor to the heat (raised BP). But you have a deficient pulse, and

apparently a deficient tongue. Then I take into account that this is

a long term pattern from " We have tried many strategies over the years… "

>

> My guess from the pattern that is presented above, is that this is

a internal heat problem, that is causing heat flaring upward, and at

the same time burning the qi, to make it appear to our objective signs

that this patient is deficient, when he is not.

>

> I would want to know how much spicy food the patient is consuming,

as well as what kind of constitution he has – thin, heavy, etc. I

would also want to know about any significant cold exposures, and what

kind of food that he craves. Alcohol consumption and greasy food

consumption are also factors here. Lastly and most importantly, what

is he doing with his Anger – is he a verbal person, is he passive

aggressive, does he " see red? "

>

> So I might suggest a change of tact, if the Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin

is not working, perhaps some of these formulas might:

>

> I ran a search on my Database, The Database

(Chinese Medicine) for Insomnia, and these are some results that I found

interesting and possible to your patients situation:

>

> These are not going to be traditional uses of these formulas, but

perhaps worth a look.

>

> Searched for Red Face

> Dao Chi San

> For: Irritability with a sensation of heat in the chest & heart,

insomnia, lots of dreams & nightmares, thirst with a desire to drink

cold beverages, a red face, possibly sores around mouth.

>

> Jiang Ya Pian (Mayway)

> For: High blood pressure with dizziness, uneasiness, stiff neck,

distention headache, red face.

>

> Searched for Anxiety & Insomnia

> An Shen Bu Xin Dan

> For: Insomnia due to neurasthenia, dream disturbed sleep,

nightmares, irritability, restlessness, anxiety, palpitations, panic

attacks, ptsd, hypertension, sleep walking, anemia, headache,

dizziness, poor memory, tinnitus.

>

> These were just a few of the results that seemed like they might

be pertinent to your patient out of the many results that were

returned in this search. If I had more information I could narrow it

down further.

>

> I hope this helps with your quest for the perfect formula for this

patient.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> L.Ac.

> The Database

> Chinese Medicine

>

>

>

> herbsandhelpers <herbsandhelpers wrote:

Thank you for all contributions so far received is there

anything else

> anyone can think of since my client is going on holiday next week.

>

> Thanks again,

>

> Lorraine.

 

> Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Lonny,

This is the approach I am now trying it seems right! Thank

you to all of you who have responded so far and broadened my thinking

on this issue I will keep you posted with any developments.

 

Best wishes,

 

Lorraine

 

Chinese Medicine ,

Spiritpathpress wrote:

>

> Hi, I havent read much of the thread but you did say your patient

had a

> greasy tongue coat and this could suggest pinellia and gastrodia

formula. Also, I

> often like to modify B and DB by adding gastrodia, uncaria, and

whatever else

> seems appropriate. Of ocurse, both are for XS

conditions.............Regards,

> Lonny Jarrett

>

>

> **************************************

> Check out AOL's list of

> 2007's hottest products.

>

> (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?

NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

>

>

>