Tian Ma: dosage and long term usage

[Guest guest]

I have wondered for some time about the this issue: Tian Ma is, to quote Chen

and Chen, " relatively non-toxic, " yet the dosage recommended in detoction is

only 3-10 g. Can anyone relate anecdotal use of higher doses of Tian Ma, (of

course as part of a formula) for acute cases of liver wind as manifested by

tremors and spasms. What further astonishes me, is that the usual dose that I

have seen in formulas such as Tian ma gou teng Yin of 9 g can be used long term

for in chronic cases. Would not its effectiveness be compromised?

 

Yehuda

 

jasonwcom <jasonwcom wrote:

If the tian ma... works well, why not just double the dosage when

" tolorance " occurs?

Regards,

-JB

 

Chinese Medicine , jon schell

<jonk2012 wrote:

>

> Hello Lorraine,

>

> So far this is what we know about the patient if I am correct:

>

> " A current client has a strong Liver Yang rising pattern with

Liver wind stirring and a major sleep problem long term. He seems to

respond best to Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin however adaptation can occur and

the effect falls off I have tried substituting with Zhen Zhu Mu Wan

but this only had negligible effect on the sleep pattern. We have

tried many strategies over the years usually with a degree of success

before adaptation occurs.

>

> The Liver Yang rising symptoms dominate the picture red face,

sweating, anxiety, previous raised BP, insomnia etc. The last pulse

reading was SP, Heart, Liver and Kidney Xu with tongue slightly pale

with a greasy coating. "

>

> First I think figuring out the etiology of this problem is

important. If you are using Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin, I would assume that

there is an element of wind, heat and liver involvement. From the

pathology above, I do not see a wind element, except as a secondary

factor to the heat (raised BP). But you have a deficient pulse, and

apparently a deficient tongue. Then I take into account that this is

a long term pattern from " We have tried many strategies over the years… "

>

> My guess from the pattern that is presented above, is that this is

a internal heat problem, that is causing heat flaring upward, and at

the same time burning the qi, to make it appear to our objective signs

that this patient is deficient, when he is not.

>

> I would want to know how much spicy food the patient is consuming,

as well as what kind of constitution he has – thin, heavy, etc. I

would also want to know about any significant cold exposures, and what

kind of food that he craves. Alcohol consumption and greasy food

consumption are also factors here. Lastly and most importantly, what

is he doing with his Anger – is he a verbal person, is he passive

aggressive, does he " see red? "

>

> So I might suggest a change of tact, if the Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin

is not working, perhaps some of these formulas might:

>

> I ran a search on my Database, The Database

(Chinese Medicine) for Insomnia, and these are some results that I found

interesting and possible to your patients situation:

>

> These are not going to be traditional uses of these formulas, but

perhaps worth a look.

>

> Searched for Red Face

> Dao Chi San

> For: Irritability with a sensation of heat in the chest & heart,

insomnia, lots of dreams & nightmares, thirst with a desire to drink

cold beverages, a red face, possibly sores around mouth.

>

> Jiang Ya Pian (Mayway)

> For: High blood pressure with dizziness, uneasiness, stiff neck,

distention headache, red face.

>

> Searched for Anxiety & Insomnia

> An Shen Bu Xin Dan

> For: Insomnia due to neurasthenia, dream disturbed sleep,

nightmares, irritability, restlessness, anxiety, palpitations, panic

attacks, ptsd, hypertension, sleep walking, anemia, headache,

dizziness, poor memory, tinnitus.

>

> These were just a few of the results that seemed like they might

be pertinent to your patient out of the many results that were

returned in this search. If I had more information I could narrow it

down further.

>

> I hope this helps with your quest for the perfect formula for this

patient.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> L.Ac.

> The Database

> Chinese Medicine

>

>

>

> herbsandhelpers <herbsandhelpers wrote:

Thank you for all contributions so far received is there

anything else

> anyone can think of since my client is going on holiday next week.

>

> Thanks again,

>

> Lorraine.

 

> Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Though the reccomended dosage is 3 pills 3x dail I've on occasion tripled

this and perscribed 27 pills a day to good effect. With this formula, " the sky

is

the limit " -do what it takes to bring down the rising yang. I'll also mention

that this can be a VERY effective formula for impotence in " high powered " men

whose yang is all up in their heads intellectually and not in

their..........well you know.......Regards, lonny Jarrett

 

 

 

**************************************

Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products.

 

(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

When I see people using very large doses of things to effect change, I have to

wonder is more really better? Don't get me wrong I am not saying that any way

is wrong, we all have intimate relationships with the herbs that we use, and

what might be effective for Lonnie or Yehuda, might not be effective for me.

But I have often wondered is more really better? I know for myself that I will

often use the herbs in homeopathic doses, which get far more interesting effects

then any large dosage ever gets me.

 

Which brings me to the idea of what we are doing with herbs. In my opinion

herbs, like acupuncture effect the subtle energy bodies (meridians, emotions,

spirit, etc.) to counteract the dis-harmony that is being enacted in the body.

Which makes me wonder, doesn't adding more herbs (e.g. creating a stronger

effect), just create more dis-harmony in the long run, that both the patient and

I will have to deal with? Wouldn't it be more effective to find the

energetically correct formula, that balances the patients imbalance, thus

creating perfect balance, rather then loading up the other side of the scales

with " good herbs " just to out weigh the " bad symptoms? "

 

I have often found that in the treating of myself, that the first dose of the

first bag of herbs or set of pills is actually where the vibration of the

dis-harmony changes. This is where in my own body I feel like the work really

is happening. Each dose after this first dose, has a lessened effect, which

tells me that my body now needs another combination of herbs with a different

vibrational quality. It is harder to be this subtle when working with patients,

because many patients are not quite so familiar with their Qi, but it can be

done by having patients keep a journal of their emotions and thoughts while they

are taking their herbs. Perhaps, hebalism on this level requires a bit more

time, but it seems to be worth it, both for myself and my patients.

 

Food for thought.

 

L.Ac.

The Database

 

Spiritpathpress wrote:

Though the reccomended dosage is 3 pills 3x dail I've on occasion

tripled

this and perscribed 27 pills a day to good effect. With this formula, " the sky

is

the limit " -do what it takes to bring down the rising yang. I'll also mention

that this can be a VERY effective formula for impotence in " high powered " men

whose yang is all up in their heads intellectually and not in

their..........well you know.......Regards, lonny Jarrett

 

**************************************

Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products.

 

(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Yehuda,

The tablets I use are 500mg and always tell patients that

they can use up to 12 per day. Some patients have noted that when

they approach these doses groggy, diszziness, heaviness in the head

area may become apparent. I have always found them effective enough

at 4-6 daily and in long term no adverse effects seem to develop.

 

Lorraine.

 

Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> I have wondered for some time about the this issue: Tian Ma is, to

quote Chen and Chen, " relatively non-toxic, " yet the dosage

recommended in detoction is only 3-10 g. Can anyone relate

anecdotal use of higher doses of Tian Ma, (of course as part of a

formula) for acute cases of liver wind as manifested by tremors and

spasms. What further astonishes me, is that the usual dose that I

have seen in formulas such as Tian ma gou teng Yin of 9 g can be used

long term for in chronic cases. Would not its effectiveness be

compromised?

>

> Yehuda

>

> jasonwcom <jasonwcom wrote:

> If the tian ma... works well, why not just double the

dosage when

> " tolorance " occurs?

> Regards,

> -JB

>

> Chinese Medicine , jon schell

> <jonk2012@> wrote:

> >

> > Hello Lorraine,

> >

> > So far this is what we know about the patient if I am correct:

> >

> > " A current client has a strong Liver Yang rising pattern with

> Liver wind stirring and a major sleep problem long term. He seems to

> respond best to Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin however adaptation can occur

and

> the effect falls off I have tried substituting with Zhen Zhu Mu Wan

> but this only had negligible effect on the sleep pattern. We have

> tried many strategies over the years usually with a degree of

success

> before adaptation occurs.

> >

> > The Liver Yang rising symptoms dominate the picture red face,

> sweating, anxiety, previous raised BP, insomnia etc. The last pulse

> reading was SP, Heart, Liver and Kidney Xu with tongue slightly pale

> with a greasy coating. "

> >

> > First I think figuring out the etiology of this problem is

> important. If you are using Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin, I would assume

that

> there is an element of wind, heat and liver involvement. From the

> pathology above, I do not see a wind element, except as a secondary

> factor to the heat (raised BP). But you have a deficient pulse, and

> apparently a deficient tongue. Then I take into account that this is

> a long term pattern from " We have tried many strategies over the

years… "

> >

> > My guess from the pattern that is presented above, is that this is

> a internal heat problem, that is causing heat flaring upward, and at

> the same time burning the qi, to make it appear to our objective

signs

> that this patient is deficient, when he is not.

> >

> > I would want to know how much spicy food the patient is consuming,

> as well as what kind of constitution he has – thin, heavy, etc. I

> would also want to know about any significant cold exposures, and

what

> kind of food that he craves. Alcohol consumption and greasy food

> consumption are also factors here. Lastly and most importantly, what

> is he doing with his Anger – is he a verbal person, is he passive

> aggressive, does he " see red? "

> >

> > So I might suggest a change of tact, if the Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin

> is not working, perhaps some of these formulas might:

> >

> > I ran a search on my Database, The Database

> (Chinese Medicine) for Insomnia, and these are some results that I

found

> interesting and possible to your patients situation:

> >

> > These are not going to be traditional uses of these formulas, but

> perhaps worth a look.

> >

> > Searched for Red Face

> > Dao Chi San

> > For: Irritability with a sensation of heat in the chest & heart,

> insomnia, lots of dreams & nightmares, thirst with a desire to drink

> cold beverages, a red face, possibly sores around mouth.

> >

> > Jiang Ya Pian (Mayway)

> > For: High blood pressure with dizziness, uneasiness, stiff neck,

> distention headache, red face.

> >

> > Searched for Anxiety & Insomnia

> > An Shen Bu Xin Dan

> > For: Insomnia due to neurasthenia, dream disturbed sleep,

> nightmares, irritability, restlessness, anxiety, palpitations, panic

> attacks, ptsd, hypertension, sleep walking, anemia, headache,

> dizziness, poor memory, tinnitus.

> >

> > These were just a few of the results that seemed like they might

> be pertinent to your patient out of the many results that were

> returned in this search. If I had more information I could narrow it

> down further.

> >

> > I hope this helps with your quest for the perfect formula for this

> patient.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> > L.Ac.

> > The Database

> > Chinese Medicine

> >

> >

> >

> > herbsandhelpers <herbsandhelpers@> wrote:

> Thank you for all contributions so far received is there

> anything else

> > anyone can think of since my client is going on holiday next week.

> >

> > Thanks again,

> >

> > Lorraine.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Lorraine,

 

I think we are comparing apples and oranges, as I am specifically referring to

Tian Ma in decoction form.

 

herbsandhelpers <herbsandhelpers wrote:

Dear Yehuda,

The tablets I use are 500mg and always tell patients that

they can use up to 12 per day. Some patients have noted that when

they approach these doses groggy, diszziness, heaviness in the head

area may become apparent. I have always found them effective enough

at 4-6 daily and in long term no adverse effects seem to develop.

 

Lorraine.

 

Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> I have wondered for some time about the this issue: Tian Ma is, to

quote Chen and Chen, " relatively non-toxic, " yet the dosage

recommended in detoction is only 3-10 g. Can anyone relate

anecdotal use of higher doses of Tian Ma, (of course as part of a

formula) for acute cases of liver wind as manifested by tremors and

spasms. What further astonishes me, is that the usual dose that I

have seen in formulas such as Tian ma gou teng Yin of 9 g can be used

long term for in chronic cases. Would not its effectiveness be

compromised?

>

> Yehuda

>

> jasonwcom <jasonwcom wrote:

> If the tian ma... works well, why not just double the

dosage when

> " tolorance " occurs?

> Regards,

> -JB

>

> Chinese Medicine , jon schell

> <jonk2012@> wrote:

> >

> > Hello Lorraine,

> >

> > So far this is what we know about the patient if I am correct:

> >

> > " A current client has a strong Liver Yang rising pattern with

> Liver wind stirring and a major sleep problem long term. He seems to

> respond best to Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin however adaptation can occur

and

> the effect falls off I have tried substituting with Zhen Zhu Mu Wan

> but this only had negligible effect on the sleep pattern. We have

> tried many strategies over the years usually with a degree of

success

> before adaptation occurs.

> >

> > The Liver Yang rising symptoms dominate the picture red face,

> sweating, anxiety, previous raised BP, insomnia etc. The last pulse

> reading was SP, Heart, Liver and Kidney Xu with tongue slightly pale

> with a greasy coating. "

> >

> > First I think figuring out the etiology of this problem is

> important. If you are using Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin, I would assume

that

> there is an element of wind, heat and liver involvement. From the

> pathology above, I do not see a wind element, except as a secondary

> factor to the heat (raised BP). But you have a deficient pulse, and

> apparently a deficient tongue. Then I take into account that this is

> a long term pattern from " We have tried many strategies over the

years… "

> >

> > My guess from the pattern that is presented above, is that this is

> a internal heat problem, that is causing heat flaring upward, and at

> the same time burning the qi, to make it appear to our objective

signs

> that this patient is deficient, when he is not.

> >

> > I would want to know how much spicy food the patient is consuming,

> as well as what kind of constitution he has – thin, heavy, etc. I

> would also want to know about any significant cold exposures, and

what

> kind of food that he craves. Alcohol consumption and greasy food

> consumption are also factors here. Lastly and most importantly, what

> is he doing with his Anger – is he a verbal person, is he passive

> aggressive, does he " see red? "

> >

> > So I might suggest a change of tact, if the Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin

> is not working, perhaps some of these formulas might:

> >

> > I ran a search on my Database, The Database

> (Chinese Medicine) for Insomnia, and these are some results that I

found

> interesting and possible to your patients situation:

> >

> > These are not going to be traditional uses of these formulas, but

> perhaps worth a look.

> >

> > Searched for Red Face

> > Dao Chi San

> > For: Irritability with a sensation of heat in the chest & heart,

> insomnia, lots of dreams & nightmares, thirst with a desire to drink

> cold beverages, a red face, possibly sores around mouth.

> >

> > Jiang Ya Pian (Mayway)

> > For: High blood pressure with dizziness, uneasiness, stiff neck,

> distention headache, red face.

> >

> > Searched for Anxiety & Insomnia

> > An Shen Bu Xin Dan

> > For: Insomnia due to neurasthenia, dream disturbed sleep,

> nightmares, irritability, restlessness, anxiety, palpitations, panic

> attacks, ptsd, hypertension, sleep walking, anemia, headache,

> dizziness, poor memory, tinnitus.

> >

> > These were just a few of the results that seemed like they might

> be pertinent to your patient out of the many results that were

> returned in this search. If I had more information I could narrow it

> down further.

> >

> > I hope this helps with your quest for the perfect formula for this

> patient.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> > L.Ac.

> > The Database

> > Chinese Medicine

> >

> >

> >

> > herbsandhelpers <herbsandhelpers@> wrote:

> Thank you for all contributions so far received is there

> anything else

> > anyone can think of since my client is going on holiday next week.

> >

> > Thanks again,

> >

> > Lorraine.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

> >

> >