dosaging

December 4, 2007

Dear Jon,

You bring up an insightful point which deserves comment: Discussing dosages,

I would like to consider two interesting dynamics: 1. the U-curve phenomenon

in pharmacology and 2. How we view the use of herbs. The U-curve has also been

called the Goldilocks effect, meaning that pharmacologically, in order for a

medicine to work, the dose has to be " just right " (not enough is ineffective and

too much is toxic). I believe we can apply this principle to the dosages we use

in prescribing Herbal medicinals as well. As such I respectfully disagree that

for an herb to be effective, one needs little more than a microscopic dose.

Clearly, with many herbs (eg. Chai Hu) the function changes based upon the

dosage.

However, that being said, I believe that if we treat our patients in the most

" wholistic " manner, we need to consider balancing many factors (such as

biomechanics, bioenergetics, and emotions) , before establishing biochemical

requirements. I believe based upon experience, that using acupuncture, and

therapies such as tuina, Qi gong, or Craniosacral Therapy and SomatoEmotional

Release can dramatically affect dosages or even the necessity to use some herbs.

I think we agree that the Western nutritional perspective that one should always

" supplement " with herbs, vitamins, minerals, anti-oxidants, and other

nutraceuticals, is foolish. If one doesn't have a deficiency to begin with,

then to supplement that nutrient will certainly create excess and imbalance. I

also agree with you that if a little is good, more is not necessarily better.

But to generalize and consider increasing the dosage of an herb in a formula to

be inappropriate or energetically insensitive, I also

feel is short-sighted, limiting and dogmatic.

Respectfully,

Yehuda

jon schell <jonk2012 wrote:

When I see people using very large doses of things to effect change, I

have to wonder is more really better? Don't get me wrong I am not saying that

any way is wrong, we all have intimate relationships with the herbs that we use,

and what might be effective for Lonnie or Yehuda, might not be effective for me.

But I have often wondered is more really better? I know for myself that I will

often use the herbs in homeopathic doses, which get far more interesting effects

then any large dosage ever gets me.

Which brings me to the idea of what we are doing with herbs. In my opinion

herbs, like acupuncture effect the subtle energy bodies (meridians, emotions,

spirit, etc.) to counteract the dis-harmony that is being enacted in the body.

Which makes me wonder, doesn't adding more herbs (e.g. creating a stronger

effect), just create more dis-harmony in the long run, that both the patient and

I will have to deal with? Wouldn't it be more effective to find the

energetically correct formula, that balances the patients imbalance, thus

creating perfect balance, rather then loading up the other side of the scales

with " good herbs " just to out weigh the " bad symptoms? "

I have often found that in the treating of myself, that the first dose of the

first bag of herbs or set of pills is actually where the vibration of the

dis-harmony changes. This is where in my own body I feel like the work really is

happening. Each dose after this first dose, has a lessened effect, which tells

me that my body now needs another combination of herbs with a different

vibrational quality. It is harder to be this subtle when working with patients,

because many patients are not quite so familiar with their Qi, but it can be

done by having patients keep a journal of their emotions and thoughts while they

are taking their herbs. Perhaps, hebalism on this level requires a bit more

time, but it seems to be worth it, both for myself and my patients.

Food for thought.

L.Ac.

The Database

Spiritpathpress wrote:

Though the reccomended dosage is 3 pills 3x dail I've on occasion tripled

this and perscribed 27 pills a day to good effect. With this formula, " the sky

is

the limit " -do what it takes to bring down the rising yang. I'll also mention

that this can be a VERY effective formula for impotence in " high powered " men

whose yang is all up in their heads intellectually and not in

their..........well you know.......Regards, lonny Jarrett

**************************************

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December 4, 2007

Dear Yehuda,

First, I would like to again say that how I use herbs might not be the way you

would use herbs, or how any other practitioner would use herbs, and vice a

versa. There is Peruvian shamanic belief, that you have to dream about an herb

before you can use it, which essentailly means you have to be introduced or have

a relationship with a plant before it can be truly useful to you. I approach

herbalism from a similar standpoint which is that we all have unique

relationships with plants, animals, and minerals, which while sometimes similar

to each other peoples relationship, is never the same.

With this said, perhaps we might discuss dosage as to what level the illness

is in. I agree with you, that to always practice in one way is limited and

short sighted. Which is to say if I have someone in my clinic who is in pain,

and needs herbs to stop pain, I don't just give them a homeopathic dose -- they

get the full dose and probably a bit more.

What I would like to discuss is what about the patients whose illness has not

turned into a full blown physical, emotional or psychological disease. Wouldn't

you vary the dosage based on where the pathogen was lodged? There is the

thought of the Doctrine of similars: using flowers and the upper parts of plants

for disorders that are higher up on the body and using roots and other parts of

plants that are lower down for diseases that are lower down on the body. Could

not this doctrine, also then be applied to whether a patients dis-comfort arose

out of emotional issues rather then physical issues, or spirtual issues even.

It seems to me that the treatment gets more subtle the higher up the food chain

of vibration that you go, and with a subtler treatment also comes a more subtle

use of herbs. This would be the same idea that you don't use a sledge hammer to

fix something if a regular hammer would be just fine.

Why I bring this up is because we are used to seeing standard dosages in

formulas. Dosages like 9 - 12g or 6 - 9g are very common in Chinese herbalism,

and yes it would be assumed that if the client symptoms are not so bad, you

would use less herbs. Or if they were really bad, you woul duse more herbs. The

symptom pictures are not often described though for what is a lesser condition,

the desrcipton of a condition is usually a standard " this is what it looks

like. " The only time we are given a symptomatic pattern as it progresses (at

least in my understanding) is in 4 level and 6 stage diagnosis. My question for

you, and everyone else is: does anyone know of a symptomatic picture that is

like 4 level and 6 stage, but deals with the indside of the system? Meaning

that the etiology is not from an outside pathogen, but begins from deficiencies

and excesses in the body and progresses to deeper levels?

One might say this is Zang Fu diagnosis or 5 phase diagnosis, and perhaps it

is 5 phase diagnosis, but I wasn't generally taught that diseases move from the

LU to the LI and then to the ST and the SP, and then to the HT, etc. This is

the way that the channels run, but how does the internal disease run? If anyone

has good resources for this please send the titles on to me -- Chinese or

English is fine.

Sincerely,

L.Ac.

The Database

Chinese Medicine

wrote:

Dear Jon,

You bring up an insightful point which deserves comment: Discussing dosages, I

would like to consider two interesting dynamics: 1. the U-curve phenomenon in

pharmacology and 2. How we view the use of herbs. The U-curve has also been