Guest guest Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 Hi Lynn, I am pretty choosy about my needles, so thank you for asking this question. After all, this is my main tool, and I use a lot of them, so I have paid attention to discovering which needles I like. Too, for any students or new practitioners on this list, needle choice is a more important topic than it might appear on the surface. So here we go. I like needles that insert smoothly, are comfortable for my patients, are easy to open, easy to handle, and generate as little waste as possible. Yeah, I expect a lot, and price is really not a consideration, but the needles I use tend to be reasonable in price ($20.00-$25.00 per box of 1000), largely because I am buying boxes of 1000; the cost would be higher overall if I was buying, say, boxes of 100. Smaller boxes also mean much more waste in the long run, and individually-packaged needles, which I also avoid for reasons mentioned below. In terms of handle-ability, I prefer needles with coil spring handles but without the little knob on top (only a few manufacturers make them without the knob), at a length of 1.5 or 2 inches because I notice I tend to drop shorter needles pretty often and am more likely to stick myself with them - so anything that makes a needle clumsy for me to use, automatically makes it a needle I won't use. The reason I dislike needles with the knobs on top is because I sometimes use acugems or metal moxa holders which sit on top of the handle, and these get caught on those little knobby things. The knobs also make used needles take up more space in my sharps containers, and they fill the containers unevenly, tending to get caught on each other, so this is a minor consideration for me. I find the same is true of pipe-style handles, whereas the spring handled needles without the knobs more evenly fill my sharps containers and I can get more of them in there. Yes, I even think about which needles to use, according to how easy it is to dispose of them. I prefer needles that are packaged in packets of 10 needles to 1 guide tube - I will never again buy singly-packaged needles (except Seirins), because it is such a waste of time (and plastic waste) to open each package individually. I don't want to feel frustrated by trying to get needles out of the package! I also dislike needles that come with tabs or other plastic pieces to keep the needle in the tube until use. They fall on the floor and stick to clothing and run amok when I am not looking, or so it seems (because I find them everywhere except the trash can!). Fussy, fussy, fussy... with a little humor too... In the last 4-5 years I have enjoyed using AcuZone needles the most, in gauges 38, 36 and 30, but in the last year, they (K.S. Choi) hardly ever have any in stock, so I have been experimenting with other brands. Really, I had been a loyal user of these, until this past summer. I was proud to say AcuZones were " my needle " , but they were not available for several months in the sizes I use, so I looked for alternatives. I like the DBS Spring 10 as a close substitute, but have noticed their 36 gauge needle is significantly thicker than AcuZones of the same gauge , so much for " standards " . The packaging for both AcuZone and DBS Spring 10 is a hard plastic blister with paper backing, 10 needles and 1 guide tube per blister, but AcuZone uses a blue guide tube which is easy to find, and DBS uses a translucent white tube, which is easy to lose. I find these easy to open, and the plastic is not so stiff that it punctures my fingers like with Carbos. The blue tube and packaging are probably the reasons AcuZones are my favorite. I heard once that Dr. Tan uses these needles, from a fellow student who studied with him, and this is how I originally heard about AcuZones about 6 years ago. MAC also makes similar needles but they can be obtained in bulk only from the importer in New York. Their needles, however, are packaged in filmy plastic bags (10 needles and 1 guide tube) that generate a great deal of static, so it can be difficult to get the needles out of the packaging. Also, their guide tubes are colorless, and disappear too easily against a white sheet or table paper. I came across their needles at a PCOM Symposium several years ago, and had great difficulty tracking them down for bulk purchasing - I have to say the packaging disappointed me a great deal. It also looks cheap and unprofessional - I found I wanted to hide the boxes from my patients. I do sometimes use Seirins in the finer gauges, for especially sensitive patients. However, I have noticed more complaints with 36 gauge Seirins than with other needles of the same gauge - they seem, well, " sharp " , and I personally also experience more discomfort when I am treated with them than with non-Seirins. Plastic and expense are the main reasons I shied away from using more Seirins originally, but now that I see my patients are more comfortable with middle and heavy-gauge needles by other manufacturers, I see no reason to use Seirins in these gauges. I use a very small amount of these in my practice. I asked their reps at last autumn's Symposium if Seirin will be doing bulk packaging in the future, and I was told this is in the works. I will buy fine gauge Seirins in bulk when they become available, and then 1 or 2 boxes will probably last me a whole year. Lhasa OMS started making needles that are intended to be a less expensive substitute for Seirins - I forget what they are called - I tried them and can't remember why I didn't like them. I think their plastic handles were too fat and cumbersome in my hand. I find Carbos difficult to insert, and patients complain more with them. These are what I learned to use in the PCOM clinic (Seirins too), and I never liked them. Plus they all have those little knobby things on top of the handle. I love, love, love needles with copper handles, and if someone were to make quality needles with copper coil spring handles without the little knobs on top, this would be my dream needle. I am sad to say none of the sans-knob coil spring needles I have found, have copper handles. :-( This is an aesthetic thing - I like the way they look, and I believe beauty in the clinic is part of the art of what we do. I also have an unproven theory that the copper is therapeutic. Lately I am doing more freehand insertions and am liking this more than using guide tubes. However, I like using guide tubes for auricular treatments, because it makes the insertion sting less. I worked at a residential detox facility for a year and they provided me with these little stubby detox needles (I forget the manufacturer, might have been Helio) that kept falling out of ears and getting lost in the carpet and furniture, only to accidentally be found in someone's hand or foot later, no matter how much we looked for them - a real nightmare, malpractice issue, and risk for contamination. I hated them. When I convinced them to let me use a longer needle with guide tubes, we stopped losing needles. Patients also said the needles were more comfortable with tube insertion. So there you have it - the long and the short of it, which needles I use and why. I hope this was helpful. Any comments? " J. Lynn Detamore " <lynndetamore wrote: Drat. Thanks for uncovering this info, Andrea Beth. What kind of needles do you use, and what sorts have worked poorly in your experience? Lynn --- wrote: > Helio's acuglide and acumaster needles are coated > with a carbon polymer. I noticed that the needles > have a blue-black sheen and called to get > information about why this is so, and after being > transferred to numerous people at Helio, learned > about the polymer. I don't believe any research has > been done on the safety of this substance, as has > been done with silicone, but the folks at Helio told > me that since it is carbon-based (as are we), it is > " biocompatible " . I have tried Helio's needles, and > find they feel " sticky " upon insertion and removal, > as if the coating creates some resistance or drag > that is palpable. To me, this coating is > experimental, and I will not use these needles. > > ~ Doing Better Than I Deserve ~ Pain is Normal - Be Weird! Lynn Detamore, MS, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. Licensed and Board Certified Acupuncturist PO Box 14, Sheridan, OR 97378 503.474.8876 lynndetamore ______________________________\ ____ Never miss a thing. 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Guest guest Posted February 29, 2008 Report Share Posted February 29, 2008 Andrea- I do the exact same deal. How funny. I use Seirin #1 and #2, and DBC for all my 36g 1 and 1.5 and 2 " . I also use Cloud & Dragon for 32g 3 " , and for 32g 1 " (for e-acupuncture). I like DBC because of how fast they can be employed due to the packaging, and there are few complaints about quality; I use the little Seirins alot, though. It's funny how much I use #1's now, compared to when I started (when I was skeptical such a thin needle did anything). #1's allow for such fine manipulation and tricky insertion, and are painless to most even on hand and foot points. -Ben Hawes was skin resistance, now needles <Chinese Medicine/message/28507;_ylc=X\ 3oDMTJyb2JjanNkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ\ 0lkAzI4NTA3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMDQxMDI4MTE-> Posted by: " " <?Subject=%20Re%3Awas%20skin%20resistance%2C%20now%20ne\ edles> <http://profiles./> Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:43 pm (PST) Hi Lynn, I am pretty choosy about my needles, so thank you for asking this question. After all, this is my main tool, and I use a lot of them, so I have paid attention to discovering which needles I like. Too, for any students or new practitioners on this list, needle choice is a more important topic than it might appear on the surface. So here we go. I like needles that insert smoothly, are comfortable for my patients, are easy to open, easy to handle, and generate as little waste as possible. Yeah, I expect a lot, and price is really not a consideration, but the needles I use tend to be reasonable in price ($20.00-$25. 00 per box of 1000), largely because I am buying boxes of 1000; the cost would be higher overall if I was buying, say, boxes of 100. Smaller boxes also mean much more waste in the long run, and individually-packaged needles, which I also avoid for reasons mentioned below. In terms of handle-ability, I prefer needles with coil spring handles but without the little knob on top (only a few manufacturers make them without the knob), at a length of 1.5 or 2 inches because I notice I tend to drop shorter needles pretty often and am more likely to stick myself with them - so anything that makes a needle clumsy for me to use, automatically makes it a needle I won't use. The reason I dislike needles with the knobs on top is because I sometimes use acugems or metal moxa holders which sit on top of the handle, and these get caught on those little knobby things. The knobs also make used needles take up more space in my sharps containers, and they fill the containers unevenly, tending to get caught on each other, so this is a minor consideration for me. I find the same is true of pipe-style handles, whereas the spring handled needles without the knobs more evenly fill my sharps containers and I can get more of them in there. Yes, I even think about which needles to use, according to how easy it is to dispose of them. I prefer needles that are packaged in packets of 10 needles to 1 guide tube - I will never again buy singly-packaged needles (except Seirins), because it is such a waste of time (and plastic waste) to open each package individually. I don't want to feel frustrated by trying to get needles out of the package! I also dislike needles that come with tabs or other plastic pieces to keep the needle in the tube until use. They fall on the floor and stick to clothing and run amok when I am not looking, or so it seems (because I find them everywhere except the trash can!). Fussy, fussy, fussy... with a little humor too... In the last 4-5 years I have enjoyed using AcuZone needles the most, in gauges 38, 36 and 30, but in the last year, they (K.S. Choi) hardly ever have any in stock, so I have been experimenting with other brands. Really, I had been a loyal user of these, until this past summer. I was proud to say AcuZones were " my needle " , but they were not available for several months in the sizes I use, so I looked for alternatives. I like the DBS Spring 10 as a close substitute, but have noticed their 36 gauge needle is significantly thicker than AcuZones of the same gauge , so much for " standards " . The packaging for both AcuZone and DBS Spring 10 is a hard plastic blister with paper backing, 10 needles and 1 guide tube per blister, but AcuZone uses a blue guide tube which is easy to find, and DBS uses a translucent white tube, which is easy to lose. I find these easy to open, and the plastic is not so stiff that it punctures my fingers like with Carbos. The blue tube and packaging are probably the reasons AcuZones are my favorite. I heard once that Dr. Tan uses these needles, from a fellow student who studied with him, and this is how I originally heard about AcuZones about 6 years ago. MAC also makes similar needles but they can be obtained in bulk only from the importer in New York. Their needles, however, are packaged in filmy plastic bags (10 needles and 1 guide tube) that generate a great deal of static, so it can be difficult to get the needles out of the packaging. Also, their guide tubes are colorless, and disappear too easily against a white sheet or table paper. I came across their needles at a PCOM Symposium several years ago, and had great difficulty tracking them down for bulk purchasing - I have to say the packaging disappointed me a great deal. It also looks cheap and unprofessional - I found I wanted to hide the boxes from my patients. I do sometimes use Seirins in the finer gauges, for especially sensitive patients. However, I have noticed more complaints with 36 gauge Seirins than with other needles of the same gauge - they seem, well, " sharp " , and I personally also experience more discomfort when I am treated with them than with non-Seirins. Plastic and expense are the main reasons I shied away from using more Seirins originally, but now that I see my patients are more comfortable with middle and heavy-gauge needles by other manufacturers, I see no reason to use Seirins in these gauges. I use a very small amount of these in my practice. I asked their reps at last autumn's Symposium if Seirin will be doing bulk packaging in the future, and I was told this is in the works. I will buy fine gauge Seirins in bulk when they become available, and then 1 or 2 boxes will probably last me a whole year. Lhasa OMS started making needles that are intended to be a less expensive substitute for Seirins - I forget what they are called - I tried them and can't remember why I didn't like them. I think their plastic handles were too fat and cumbersome in my hand. I find Carbos difficult to insert, and patients complain more with them. These are what I learned to use in the PCOM clinic (Seirins too), and I never liked them. Plus they all have those little knobby things on top of the handle. I love, love, love needles with copper handles, and if someone were to make quality needles with copper coil spring handles without the little knobs on top, this would be my dream needle. I am sad to say none of the sans-knob coil spring needles I have found, have copper handles. :-( This is an aesthetic thing - I like the way they look, and I believe beauty in the clinic is part of the art of what we do. I also have an unproven theory that the copper is therapeutic. Lately I am doing more freehand insertions and am liking this more than using guide tubes. However, I like using guide tubes for auricular treatments, because it makes the insertion sting less. I worked at a residential detox facility for a year and they provided me with these little stubby detox needles (I forget the manufacturer, might have been Helio) that kept falling out of ears and getting lost in the carpet and furniture, only to accidentally be found in someone's hand or foot later, no matter how much we looked for them - a real nightmare, malpractice issue, and risk for contamination. I hated them. When I convinced them to let me use a longer needle with guide tubes, we stopped losing needles. Patients also said the needles were more comfortable with tube insertion. So there you have it - the long and the short of it, which needles I use and why. I hope this was helpful. Any comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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