Guest guest Posted May 13, 2008 Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 New patient age 47 with 20 years of migraines experienced twitching during each of 3 treatments. First time, her foot twitched; second time, 6 or 7 times in legs; today, in her knees and arms, 3 times. Am I moving Wind and is this good, bad or indifferent? I am treating Liver Yang rising with Liv 3, GB43, GB 38, LI4 and local points on the head, usually on GB channel, and Taiyang. Secondly, the frequency of headaches has increased during the 10 days between the 3 treatments. Is this unusual? Or a 'healing crisis' perhaps? Any and all thoughts are appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2008 Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 I have had this with patients mostly while doing acupressure with them (more so than with acupuncture). What is interesting to me, is that it often seems to be the body coming back into a more natural alignment. I've noticed that patients seem to be visually more balanced after these twitches happen. Sometimes they can be quite strong. On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup wrote: > New patient age 47 with 20 years of migraines experienced twitching > during each of 3 treatments. First time, her foot twitched; second > time, 6 or 7 times in legs; today, in her knees and arms, 3 times. Am > I moving Wind and is this good, bad or indifferent? I am treating > Liver Yang rising with Liv 3, GB43, GB 38, LI4 and local points on the > head, usually on GB channel, and Taiyang. > Secondly, the frequency of headaches has increased during the 10 days > between the 3 treatments. Is this unusual? Or a 'healing crisis' > perhaps? Any and all thoughts are appreciated. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2008 Report Share Posted May 14, 2008 i recently had a patient twitching after particularly strong tx. we saw good results from those tx (migraines were not involved, but a complicated case with lots of varied symptoms). i also interpreted the reaction as Wind stirring, and the body doing what it needed to do to get balanced. kath On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup wrote: > New patient age 47 with 20 years of migraines experienced twitching > during each of 3 treatments. First time, her foot twitched; second > time, 6 or 7 times in legs; today, in her knees and arms, 3 times. Am > I moving Wind and is this good, bad or indifferent? I am treating > Liver Yang rising with Liv 3, GB43, GB 38, LI4 and local points on the > head, usually on GB channel, and Taiyang. > Secondly, the frequency of headaches has increased during the 10 days > between the 3 treatments. Is this unusual? Or a 'healing crisis' > perhaps? Any and all thoughts are appreciated. > > > -- Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2008 Report Share Posted May 15, 2008 This is a very timely post. I had a patient today who remarked that she had twitching during the treatment (while laying on the table with the needles in). This was her 3rd weekly treatment for detox from antidepressants and she is having a lot of anxiety--more anxiety than depression. So the treatment was primarily to clear heart fire and build yin. She also commented that " whooo...that was quite an experience " (this particular treatment). She didn't really elaborate but seemed to indicate that that she " went places " and that her body became very heavy, " in a good way " (her words) Either way, I think there was definitely some wind release. Thanks for the topic. Meredith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2008 Report Share Posted May 15, 2008 pull back the needles a little from hegu(li4), that is enough to often release the heart from the strength of the treatment. did you use LI points? natdoc48 <natdoc48 wrote: This is a very timely post. I had a patient today who remarked that she had twitching during the treatment (while laying on the table with the needles in). This was her 3rd weekly treatment for detox from antidepressants and she is having a lot of anxiety--more anxiety than depression. So the treatment was primarily to clear heart fire and build yin. She also commented that " whooo...that was quite an experience " (this particular treatment). She didn't really elaborate but seemed to indicate that that she " went places " and that her body became very heavy, " in a good way " (her words) Either way, I think there was definitely some wind release. Thanks for the topic. Meredith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2008 Report Share Posted May 15, 2008 Hi Kath, You are inquiring into an area that has long been an interest for me. I first encountered it in 1982 when I worked the NeoReichian institute in Santa Monica, CA. I don’t know if this relates to what your patient experienced, but I definitely classify what I am about to describe as different from the twitching qi needling technique. I pulled this from an article that I have been working on and searching for a place to publish. It is tweaked a bit for this forum. The moral and conceptual development of boundaries in the child may be the beginnings of what Wilhelm Reich (1980) called ‘character armoring.’ Reich, a student of Freud conceived of the character and trauma of life to bind into the tissues †" a view that was in stark contrast to the archetypal focus of the Jungian perspective. Character armoring involves attitudes used to block against emotional excitations. This generates corresponding muscle rigidity and interferes with emotional contact (Reich, 1980). The application of this concept by Reich led him to combining breathing techniques with various methods to stress the tissue sites where the armoring could be observed. This might be through holding postures for extended periods of time in order to get tissues to release, or it might be deep tissue work similar to Rolfing in order to get a discharge. The discharge often involved shaking or a state called ‘vibratory’. The important activity when discharge is occurring is breathing and for the practitioner to observe where the muscle structures are becoming tense, so that the patient may be directed to release those structures whole the vibratory state unfolds. Possibly connected to this business of vibratory, twitching and shaking are the functions of the defensive qi. The defensive qi warms the body, fills the soft tissues with qi, controls the opening and closing of the sweat pores, and nourishes the interstices and connective tissues between the skin, muscle and organs. Ancient Chinese herbalist Luo Tianyi in 1343 suggested that the defensive qi warms the muscles, nourishes the skin and skin hair, controls the opening and closing of the pores and consequently, the sweat (Luo, 1987). These tissue areas are the locations where the process of character armoring as described by Reich (1980) is somatized. The defensive qi flows throughout the superficial interstices, connective tissues and muscle structures during the daytime and the conscious waking periods. At night and during the dream time, the defensive qi flows inwardly throughout the deeper connective tissues and structures. Spreading out over the surface of the organs and throughout the deeper interstices it connects to the deeply subjective states and the essence. When it flows on the surface there are links to the objective world and the boundary between self and other. At the interior, it connects to the internal boundaries and conflicts. As the defensive moves to the interior during the night, dream time brings resolution to many conflicts of the borderlands where we draw the lines of our existence. I surmise that shaking opens up the divergent channels from the interior to the exterior. When shaking acupuncture is performed, it is as though spirit enters the practitioner and an ecstatic shaking similar to that in Bushman Shamanism. This well-performed shaking needling technique seems similar shaking that occurs in certain forms of Qi Gung when it becomes non-intentional and ecstatic. It is similar to the shaking of the Shakers, Quakers and Kundalini. For me it is an ecstatic opening and an indication of powerful treatment where the character armoring is loosened. The defenses against the world soften from this. So, I don’t know if this is the twitching you are referring to, but I thought I would see what people think about this concept. References Luo, T. (1987). Precious mirror of hygiene (C. Zhu, Trans.). In The chinese english medical dictionary: People’s Hygiene Press. Reich, W. (1980). Character analysis (V. Carfagno, Trans. 3 ed.). New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux. Warmly, Will William R. Morris, DAOM, MSEd, LAc http://theccrt.com/ http://www.aoma.edu/ http://www.pulsediagnosis.com/ When individuals come together with a shared intention, in a conducive environment, something mysterious can come into being, with capacities and intelligences that far transcend those of the individuals involved. Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett, MS, LAc " wrote: > > i recently had a patient twitching after particularly strong tx. we saw > good results from those tx (migraines were not involved, but a complicated > case with lots of varied symptoms). i also interpreted the reaction as Wind > stirring, and the body doing what it needed to do to get balanced. > > kath > > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup > wrote: > > > New patient age 47 with 20 years of migraines experienced twitching > > during each of 3 treatments. First time, her foot twitched; second > > time, 6 or 7 times in legs; today, in her knees and arms, 3 times. Am > > I moving Wind and is this good, bad or indifferent? I am treating > > Liver Yang rising with Liv 3, GB43, GB 38, LI4 and local points on the > > head, usually on GB channel, and Taiyang. > > Secondly, the frequency of headaches has increased during the 10 days > > between the 3 treatments. Is this unusual? Or a 'healing crisis' > > perhaps? Any and all thoughts are appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Oriental Medicine > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > kbartlett > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2008 Report Share Posted May 15, 2008 Thanks-great suggestion. I will keep that in mind the next time. Meredith Chinese Medicine , mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: > > pull back the needles a little from hegu(li4), that is enough to often release the heart from the strength of the treatment. did you use LI points? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2008 Report Share Posted May 15, 2008 Will: this is an interesting post, and does describe what happened with m patient. to give you a little more, she is obese, on antidepressants. also has ehol and tobacco addictions. patterns included liver qi and xue stag, sp qi xu with ph-d, bi pain (disc protrusion causing sciatica), ph h in the lu (sinusitis: now improved), kid yin xu (hot flashes with profuse sweating) .. . . as i was reading your mention of a divergent channel issue and defensive qi involvement, i remembered a jeffery yuen lecture on the tmms. i think he might consider the defensive qi and somatomization (sp?) a tmm issue. kath On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Will Morris <WMorris116 wrote: > Hi Kath, > > You are inquiring into an area that has long been an interest for me. > I first encountered it in 1982 when I worked the NeoReichian institute > in Santa Monica, CA. I don’t know if this relates to what your patient > experienced, but I definitely classify what I am about to describe as > different from the twitching qi needling technique. I pulled this from > an article that I have been working on and searching for a place to > publish. It is tweaked a bit for this forum. > > The moral and conceptual development of boundaries in the child may be > the beginnings of what Wilhelm Reich (1980) called ‘character > armoring.’ Reich, a student of Freud conceived of the character and > trauma of life to bind into the tissues †" a view that was in stark > contrast to the archetypal focus of the Jungian perspective. > Character armoring involves attitudes used to block against emotional > excitations. This generates corresponding muscle rigidity and > interferes with emotional contact (Reich, 1980). > > The application of this concept by Reich led him to combining > breathing techniques with various methods to stress the tissue sites > where the armoring could be observed. This might be through holding > postures for extended periods of time in order to get tissues to > release, or it might be deep tissue work similar to Rolfing in order > to get a discharge. The discharge often involved shaking or a state > called ‘vibratory’. The important activity when discharge is > occurring is breathing and for the practitioner to observe where the > muscle structures are becoming tense, so that the patient may be > directed to release those structures whole the vibratory state unfolds. > > Possibly connected to this business of vibratory, twitching and > shaking are the functions of the defensive qi. The defensive qi warms > the body, fills the soft tissues with qi, controls the opening and > closing of the sweat pores, and nourishes the interstices and > connective tissues between the skin, muscle and organs. Ancient > Chinese herbalist Luo Tianyi in 1343 suggested that the defensive qi > warms the muscles, nourishes the skin and skin hair, controls the > opening and closing of the pores and consequently, the sweat (Luo, > 1987). These tissue areas are the locations where the process of > character armoring as described by Reich (1980) is somatized. The > defensive qi flows throughout the superficial interstices, connective > tissues and muscle structures during the daytime and the conscious > waking periods. At night and during the dream time, the defensive qi > flows inwardly throughout the deeper connective tissues and > structures. Spreading out over the surface of the organs and > throughout the deeper interstices it connects to the deeply subjective > states and the essence. When it flows on the surface there are links > to the objective world and the boundary between self and other. At the > interior, it connects to the internal boundaries and conflicts. As the > defensive moves to the interior during the night, dream time brings > resolution to many conflicts of the borderlands where we draw the > lines of our existence. > > I surmise that shaking opens up the divergent channels from the > interior to the exterior. When shaking acupuncture is performed, it is > as though spirit enters the practitioner and an ecstatic shaking > similar to that in Bushman Shamanism. This well-performed shaking > needling technique seems similar shaking that occurs in certain forms > of Qi Gung when it becomes non-intentional and ecstatic. It is similar > to the shaking of the Shakers, Quakers and Kundalini. For me it is an > ecstatic opening and an indication of powerful treatment where the > character armoring is loosened. The defenses against the world soften > from this. > > So, I don’t know if this is the twitching you are referring to, but I > thought I would see what people think about this concept. > > References > > Luo, T. (1987). Precious mirror of hygiene (C. Zhu, Trans.). In The > chinese english medical dictionary: People’s Hygiene Press. > Reich, W. (1980). Character analysis (V. Carfagno, Trans. 3 ed.). New > York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux. > > Warmly, > > Will > > William R. Morris, DAOM, MSEd, LAc > http://theccrt.com/ > http://www.aoma.edu/ > http://www.pulsediagnosis.com/ > > When individuals come together with a shared intention, in a conducive > environment, something mysterious can come into being, with capacities > and intelligences that far transcend those of the individuals involved. > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " Kath Bartlett, > MS, LAc " wrote: > > > > i recently had a patient twitching after particularly strong tx. we saw > > good results from those tx (migraines were not involved, but a > complicated > > case with lots of varied symptoms). i also interpreted the reaction > as Wind > > stirring, and the body doing what it needed to do to get balanced. > > > > kath > > > > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup > > wrote: > > > > > New patient age 47 with 20 years of migraines experienced twitching > > > during each of 3 treatments. First time, her foot twitched; second > > > time, 6 or 7 times in legs; today, in her knees and arms, 3 times. Am > > > I moving Wind and is this good, bad or indifferent? I am treating > > > Liver Yang rising with Liv 3, GB43, GB 38, LI4 and local points on the > > > head, usually on GB channel, and Taiyang. > > > Secondly, the frequency of headaches has increased during the 10 days > > > between the 3 treatments. Is this unusual? Or a 'healing crisis' > > > perhaps? Any and all thoughts are appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com <http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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