TIME

[Guest guest]

Alon -

 

I go through cycles of use. It doesn't seem that reliable on a day to day basis. Master Tong's senior student Dr Yang told me he uses open points calculated for the time of birth as a method of constitutional treatment. I have used open points for the time of death of a close loved one where shock has prevailed.

 

I don't know if this is such a secret. Most Chinese I know don't consider it worth the time - no pun intended. On the other hand, the ones that are into it, are really into it.

 

 

Will

 

 

Out of curiosity how many people use the i ching and open points in their practice?

[Guest guest]

Out of curiosity how many people use the i ching and open points in their practice?

Alon

[Guest guest]

Did he discuss the details of how he does this?

 

 

 

It was very straight forward. Take the person's birth time and calculate open points according to the various methods such as Zi Wu Liu Zhu, Ling Gui Ba Fa, Fei Teng Ba Fa. Then select points relevent to the CC.

>>> I have used open points for the time of death of a close loved one where shock has prevailed.>>>

 

What made you choose an open point method over another? And what did you see in the pulse before and after the treatment?

 

 

The pulse was more stable and evenly distributed throughout. The person went into 'entrainment' as soon as the points were placed. There was a remarkable change in temperament after the treatment.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

Dr Yang told me he uses open points calculated for the time of birth

as a method of constitutional treatment. >>>

 

 

Did he discuss the details of how he does this?

 

 

>>> I have used open points for the time of death of a close loved

one where shock has prevailed.>>>

 

What made you choose an open point method over another? And what did

you see in the pulse before and after the treatment?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> I go through cycles of use. It doesn't seem that reliable on a day

to day basis.

 

 

Will:

 

Like you, I've played with these systems and others from time to

time---like 9 Flying Stars, Stems and Branches, etc. It seems

difficult to apply to a single person because of the many variables

that can dominate any particular time period. But they do seem more

useful when talking about a patient population---a group with the

same particular problems.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Z'ev - What you state is the crux of how I approach this medicine and was essential to John Shen's approach. I am encouraged to hear of more people recognizing the pulse as a primary tool for such efforts.

 

Will

 

 

Will and Alon,

While I also use the open point systems in daily practice, these methods are just one aspect of what I am talking about. Awareness of time is not just looking at acupuncture point calendars. What I am trying to point out is the importance of what Arthur Kleinman, a medical anthropologist, calls the 'clinical gaze', in this case the clinical gaze of Chinese medicine. It is how we view and interact with the patient, creating space for a person to grow and access their self-healing mechanisms. It is also how we view the disease process as a continuum from the past, and envision healing in the future by designing a strategy of treatment, lifestyle and mental/emotional attitude. One of the main tools in this process is pulse diagnosis.

[Guest guest]

Will and Alon,

While I also use the open point systems in daily practice, these

methods are just one aspect of what I am talking about. Awareness of

time is not just looking at acupuncture point calendars. What I am

trying to point out is the importance of what Arthur Kleinman, a

medical anthropologist, calls the 'clinical gaze', in this case the

clinical gaze of Chinese medicine. It is how we view and interact with

the patient, creating space for a person to grow and access their

self-healing mechanisms. It is also how we view the disease process as

a continuum from the past, and envision healing in the future by

designing a strategy of treatment, lifestyle and mental/emotional

attitude. One of the main tools in this process is pulse diagnosis.

 

 

On Tuesday, December 24, 2002, at 02:45 PM, WMorris116 wrote:

 

> Alon -

>

> I go through cycles of use. It doesn't seem that reliable on a day to

> day basis. Master Tong's senior student Dr Yang told me he uses open

> points calculated for the time of birth as a method of constitutional

> treatment. I have used open points for the time of death of a close

> loved one where shock has prevailed.

>

> I don't know if this is such a secret. Most Chinese I know don't

> consider it worth the time - no pun intended. On the other hand, the

> ones that are into it, are really into it.

>

>

> Will

>

>

> Out of curiosity how many people use the i ching and open points in

> their practice?

>

>

>

> \

[Guest guest]

Master Tong's senior student Dr Yang

>>>Interesting when i took classes from him in the 80's he never mentioned it

alon

[Guest guest]

Stems and Branches

>>I use this to balance a point combination in pain. Seems to be possibly helpful at times. Hard to really know

alon

[Guest guest]

It is also how we view the disease process as a continuum from the past, and envision healing in the future by designing a strategy of treatment, lifestyle and mental/emotional attitude. One of the main tools in this process is pulse diagnosis. >>>The continuum of disease is extremely important to me and I get this information by other means than the pulse. To me treating somatic complaints is often like opening a combination lock. It is not just the right moves but the order in which they are done. The continuum (history) as well as somatic imprints is the only way to understand this process. As i enter this realm from an osteopathic perspective, even when doing TCM, I am interested in hearing more detail on how you use this. Can you give more concrete examples

Thanks Alon

[Guest guest]

Dr. Huang Jian-Xin in Seattle put together a computer program to

calculate open points. I read a chronoacupuncture book a while back

(the one published in china) and thought it sounded interested. One of

my supervisors at school did his thesis in chronoacupuncture when he was

in school back in China. He told me that sometimes (no pun again..) it

works like magic. After reading about it, I gave up on it since I

couldn't tell what time it is. For instance, what's noon? Is it the

zenith of the sun's movement? What's 3:35 then? What about daylight

savings time? Are you going to treat your patient at 4:36 am? When

you're dealing with a system that claims that points change something

like every 12 minutes, then these things should matter, and I wasn't

going to bother trying to figure it out.

 

Geoff

 

> __________

>

> Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:51:29 -0600

> " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus

> Re: TIME

>

> Out of curiosity how many people use the i ching and open

> points in their practice? Alon

[Guest guest]

Geoffrey Hudson wrote:

 

> I gave up on it since I

> couldn't tell what time it is. For instance, what's noon? Is it the

> zenith of the sun's movement? What's 3:35 then? What about daylight

> savings time? Are you going to treat your patient at 4:36 am? When

> you're dealing with a system that claims that points change something

> like every 12 minutes, then these things should matter, and I wasn't

> going to bother trying to figure it out.

 

This is exactly my problem with chronotherapeutics. The meridian clock

too is problematic for me (Qi is most evident in the Lung channel from

3-5 am, Large Intestine from 5-7 am, etc...)

 

One of my teachers thought like this and it makes much more sense to me,

that the morning from dawn to around 10 or 11 is the Shao Yang time. The

sun is the Yang and it is just rising. It is little, or " Shao " . From 11

to 2 or so it is at its highest position, or the Tai Yang time. From 3

to dusk it wanes, even though that can be the hottest time of the day.

Ultimate Yang becomes Yin. That is Yang Ming.

 

It isn't as easy to see at night, because after all, it is dark. But the

evening would be the Shao Yin time. Midnight + or - 2 hours is Tai Yin

and the wee hours of the morning are Jue Yin. Ultimate Yin becomes Yang

and dusk soon follows.

 

Therapeutically, you'll see lots of correspondances between times of day

and pathologies. My favorate is the insomnia where one awakens in the

Jue Yin time of the day and can't return to sleep, often times due to

planning their activities of the day. This is a Liver pathology. Usually

Blood deficiency in my experience, but Maclean and Lyttleton say it can

be Qi stagnation too.

 

I've found that among those with Spleen deficiencies resulting in

gastro-intestinal complaints, that the problem is often aggravated by

eating, however if they eat a meal during the mid to late afternoon, it

is either not a problem or else less of a problem. I tell my patients

who desire a salad or other cold property foods to eat them in the heat

of the afternoon when there is the most Yang Ming energy " in the air "

which can help them digest better.

 

Obviously not everything can be explained as such, but when you have a

pathology that is worse or better at a certain time of the day, I've

found it useful to consider the nature of that time of the day. I don't

look at the clock that carefully, but rather the feeling of the time of

the day. Yang Ming time doesn't start exactly at 3pm, but rather

transitions into that heat of the afternoon slowly after the Tai Yang

period. Same thing with the rest of the six periods of the day.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

Dear Ken,

 

First let me say thank you very much the chimed list info...

 

 

the sense of time and Chinese medicine is an interesting one and unfortunately know next to nothing about it.

 

But presumably time was seen as much more multidimensional and less unidirectional then say today's general acceptance of time.

 

Judith farquhar - knowing practice talks about temporal and spatial factors/aspects (need to read that book again, highly recommended)

 

"crhno acumoxa" is presumably a part and the Yi Jing and stems and branches, five phases and traditional Chinese astrology. It would be interesting to see which metaphorical language was and is used to transcend time "onto/into" the realm of Chinese medicine.

 

As for Maya medicine one needs to detect once relation to the calendars (two or more) to determine certain treatments and length thereof,plants needs to be picked at a certain time and at certain intervals.

 

Maybe, Classical Chinese medicine had a greater preoccupation with harmonising "pleasing" time per say and the phenomenal entities and there inter-conectiveness, patient as sufferer and healer as administrator (of timing).

 

This presumably is in part what the theory-construct of:

 

Heaven

Human

Earth

 

is in part about.

 

Unfortunately I am speculating because thus far feel that most books mentions, that there exist such a "thing" as heaven human earth but leaves it at that.

 

Less I am reading to much into the above one can presume that one point of departure was the sense of re-cyclical phenomena that nature seam to express at smaller and larger "cycles", with intrinsic change as a "constant".

 

I can not remember of hand but you mention that the huang di nei jing have over 200 usage's of Qi.

 

Was time and timing(s) inter-related inter-changed with qi?

 

Can any one elaborate on qi and time relation, is there such a thing as yin time and yang time apart from yang within yin, yang within yang, yin within yang, yin within yin?

 

I would think that preoccupation concern with time could easily lead one into the religious dimensions for better or worst. For example illness and dis-ease as a certain qi would no doubt be inter-connected and inter-dependent "intertwine" with time and hence affected by timing(s); constitutional bodily "type" would also be inter-connected... and an individual too. The systems that would keep an eye on such aspects would probably manifest "obsesional" tendencies, but prognosis and heaven human earth inter-actions would possibly give some hints to this very fascinating aspect of Chinese medicine.

 

Come to think of it in Fluid physiology Bensky mentions in the introduction that the jin ye - body fluid can be seen as the glue which "mediates" the bodily functions. Maybe time can be seen as the invisible glue which mediates and interconnects heaven human earth, as such qi and time are the same (source)?

 

 

Marco (not sure if it is optimum time to ask but when is someone visiting guatemala:-)

 

 

 

 

-

dragon90405 <yulong

Thursday, January 02, 2003 8:58 PM

Time

> I think its like everything else. Some will put the time and some will notTime may well be the crux of the matter. How are we going to spendwhat little time we have?And what will we have gained forall the time spent?The notion of time and timing inChinese medicine came up recently,and I must have lost track of thatthread or it just unraveled.For those who aren't familiar with it,there's a provactive bit in one of theessays in the Needham book that containshis 1981 Univ. of Hong Kong lectures.I don't recall the title, but it'ssomething along the lines of sciencein traditional China. Great stuff.In one of the later talks he toucheson the concept of time in traditionalChinese life and thought. For anyonewho wants to understand the traditionalChinese character of traditional Chinesemedicine, it's worthwhile reading.What he says, to the best of my recollectionis that the subject of time in traditionalChinese awareness, is not congruent withthe sense of time in the (then) contemporaryworld. Naturally, the timesense in today'sworld is different from Needham's time,although he died just a few years ago.Beyond that he points out that not enoughresearch has been done into this disparitybetween Chinese and Western notions andexperience of time. As Alon pointed outsome will spend the time to learn andsome won't. And when you come right downto it, this is an expression of individualvalues that are very much informed by thesense of time that is abroad in an individual'sculture.Another written source that just mightbe pertinent to the exploration of theimportance of time and timing in thepractice of Chinese herbal medicine isa curious little book called Synchronicityby Allen Combs and Mark Holland, Marloweand Company, 1996.How do you know when to do what?KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Ken and group,

Here is a little piece of something I've been working on I'd like to

share with the group in response to what Ken is talking about here. I

think Ken is on to something very important that makes a huge

contribution to clinical success in Chinese medicine.

 

Modern society has created a situation of such technology-generated

chaos, that one of our most important goals as practitioners of Chinese

medicine is to put our patients back in touch with natural rhythms and

cycles. The majority of our patients never listen to their bodies.

They have gotten used to using sleeping pills to deal with jet lag or

inability to sleep, coffee to wake up and think and study, laxatives

for constipation, pain pills, aspirin, antacids, constant drugging to

deal with the aches and pains of living life out of balance. The use

of these medications in turn shuts down the body, throwing it even more

out of balance.

 

The body-mind intelligence, mapped by the acupuncture channel system,

responds to all stimuli and attempts to synchronize all body systems

with the natural systems of cosmic, seasonal, environmental, natural,

social and biological rhythms. Chinese medical treatment attempts to

synchronize the individual’s body-mind intelligence with these cycles

by adjusting timing.

 

Many of my patients have told me what they like the most about Chinese

medical treatment is that it changes their relationship to time. Most

complain of finding it difficult of keeping up with the modern

mechanized world, which gets faster and more chaotic all the time. Add

to that the increasing sedentary nature of modern living and we have

set the stage for a host of chronic disorders that are difficult to

detect in the earliest stages. However, with pulse diagnosis, we can

detect these imbalances early enough to intervene in the chaos and

restore a more orderly lifestyle that respects natural rhythms.

 

 

On Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 06:58 PM, dragon90405

<yulong wrote:

 

>

>> I think its like everything else. Some will put the time and some

> will not

>

>

> Time may well be the crux of the

> matter. How are we going to spend

> what little time we have?

>

> And what will we have gained for

> all the time spent?

>

> The notion of time and timing in

> Chinese medicine came up recently,

> and I must have lost track of that

> thread or it just unraveled.

>

>

> What he says, to the best of my recollection

> is that the subject of time in traditional

> Chinese awareness, is not congruent with

> the sense of time in the (then) contemporary

> world. Naturally, the timesense in today's

> world is different from Needham's time,

> although he died just a few years ago.

>

> Beyond that he points out that not enough

> research has been done into this disparity

> between Chinese and Western notions and

> experience of time. As Alon pointed out

> some will spend the time to learn and

> some won't. And when you come right down

> to it, this is an expression of individual

> values that are very much informed by the

> sense of time that is abroad in an individual's

> culture.

> How do you know when to do what?

>

> Ken

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Zev,

 

Interesting, have you published some of this experiences?

 

This is at least to me in part what makes Chinese medicine an living entity "self" evolving and "self" adapting.

 

I may be mistaking gravely but to me it seams that time is alive or at least the animating force in life processes.

 

I personally would love to hear from your experience more with regard to pulse and treatment.

 

"What" is it you detect?

 

 

To use your term body-mind intelligence, mapped by the acupuncture channel system, forgive me for being slow but can you elaborate, comment more?

 

If this is the case, would then the natural drugs have channel affinity?

Enter a "particular" channel, hence entering certain level/aspect(s) of body-mind intelligence.

 

I personally have not grasped channel affinity and materia medica in a useful way, but would really appreciate if any one knows how to develop such skill.

 

How resistant do you find people to change, because to "attune" a patient with a disharmony and or dis-ease or illness would presumably involve life style changes apart from acumoxa and or medication.

 

I am asking this with sincerity in mind because I find that maybe my practitioner skills as a "guide" weak.

 

Sometime ago I asked about Chinese medicine and malnourishment and as a timing aspect could one teach some form of moxa at a certain interval related to intake of food to reduce the ills of malnutrition?

 

And, speed up regulation of earth phase and other aspects that probably are affected negatively, spleen absorption and transportation and transforming abilities?

 

There are some hospitals out side of Guatemala city that attend to malnutrition children/babies, and general diet in the communities are poor and restricted. I am thinking as a form of preventative health care management?

 

Maybe massage and acumoxa could reduce some long term effects of malnutrition?

 

Also, maybe children in the hospitals could recover sooner?

 

If any one has any opinions please respond it is a serious problem in Guatemala (not just in Guatemala of course).

 

I am going to visit one of these hospitals in Chiqamula and if the timing is right I will actually have something useful to contribute.

 

There is a general need for acumoxa Chinese medicine and child health care does any one know any Internet sight that deals with this? any books...?

 

Marco

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

Thursday, January 02, 2003 10:42 PM

Re: Time

Ken and group, Here is a little piece of something I've been working on I'd like to share with the group in response to what Ken is talking about here. I think Ken is on to something very important that makes a huge contribution to clinical success in Chinese medicine.Modern society has created a situation of such technology-generated chaos, that one of our most important goals as practitioners of Chinese medicine is to put our patients back in touch with natural rhythms and cycles. The majority of our patients never listen to their bodies. They have gotten used to using sleeping pills to deal with jet lag or inability to sleep, coffee to wake up and think and study, laxatives for constipation, pain pills, aspirin, antacids, constant drugging to deal with the aches and pains of living life out of balance. The use of these medications in turn shuts down the body, throwing it even more out of balance. The body-mind intelligence, mapped by the acupuncture channel system, responds to all stimuli and attempts to synchronize all body systems with the natural systems of cosmic, seasonal, environmental, natural, social and biological rhythms. Chinese medical treatment attempts to synchronize the individual’s body-mind intelligence with these cycles by adjusting timing.Many of my patients have told me what they like the most about Chinese medical treatment is that it changes their relationship to time. Most complain of finding it difficult of keeping up with the modern mechanized world, which gets faster and more chaotic all the time. Add to that the increasing sedentary nature of modern living and we have set the stage for a host of chronic disorders that are difficult to detect in the earliest stages. However, with pulse diagnosis, we can detect these imbalances early enough to intervene in the chaos and restore a more orderly lifestyle that respects natural rhythms. On Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 06:58 PM, dragon90405 <yulong wrote:

 

I think its like everything else. Some will put the time and some will notTime may well be the crux of the matter. How are we going to spendwhat little time we have?And what will we have gained forall the time spent?The notion of time and timing inChinese medicine came up recently,and I must have lost track of thatthread or it just unraveled.What he says, to the best of my recollectionis that the subject of time in traditionalChinese awareness, is not congruent withthe sense of time in the (then) contemporaryworld. Naturally, the timesense in today'sworld is different from Needham's time,although he died just a few years ago.Beyond that he points out that not enoughresearch has been done into this disparitybetween Chinese and Western notions andexperience of time. As Alon pointed outsome will spend the time to learn andsome won't. And when you come right downto it, this is an expression of individualvalues that are very much informed by thesense of time that is abroad in an individual'sculture.How do you know when to do what?Ken

[Guest guest]

I am working on this right now. . . look for some future articles or in

book form.

 

 

On Friday, January 3, 2003, at 12:17 PM, Marco wrote:

 

> Dear Zev,

>  

> Interesting, have you published some of this experiences?

>  

[Guest guest]

Thanks,

 

Maybe you can drop a hint when the time is ripe:-)

 

Marco

 

 

-

 

Friday, January 03, 2003 3:00 PM

Re: Time

I am working on this right now. . . look for some future articles or in book form.On Friday, January 3, 2003, at 12:17 PM, Marco wrote:

Dear Zev, Interesting, have you published some of this experiences?

[Guest guest]

TIMEOne of today’s biggest challenges is to take time to smell the roses.

We live in a 24/7 on-demand society, wired and connected at all times.

The office expects us to be there full-time.

The family expects us to be there full time.

We fill even the smallest perceived void with activities or pseudo-activities (like watching TV or gaming).

The demands that others place on us and that we place on ourselves are more than a sane person should ever have to support.Take time to smell the roses.

Lie down if you must.

Close your eyes if you must.

Lock the door if you must.

Hide your cell phone under your pillow if you must.

But take the time – make the time.