Guest guest Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 there seems to be 2 types used for tou gu cao (w-d-bi): Speranskia Tuberculata & Impatiens balsamina L can anyone provide info on differentiation in terms of actions and indications? -- Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 Kath, I had a similiar question. I ordered some from Nuherbs in Oakland CA last year. They provided me with Speranskia. I asked them for more specifics on the particular species, but I never got a satisfactory answer. As a result, I only use it for externally for trauma in the same dosages as Impatiens Balsamina. David Toone, L.Ac. 441 Selborne Way Palmetto, GA 30268 On Aug 1, 2008, at 12:20 PM, wrote: > there seems to be 2 types used for tou gu cao (w-d-bi): > > Speranskia Tuberculata & Impatiens balsamina L > > can anyone provide info on differentiation in terms of actions and > indications? > > -- > > Oriental Medicine > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php? > page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & product=5554 & pg= > > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > kbartlett > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 Kath, David:  Chinese search engines distinguish these two types:  tou gu cao is given as Turberculate Speranskia Herb é€éª¨è‰ or Garden Balsam Stem  while Balsam(Impatiens balsamina) is more often called  Feng Xian Hua  凤仙花 although some websites call them by both names. Perhaps the confusion lies therein.  Jack  Impatiens balsamina Impatiens balsamina L. 凤仙花 Description from Flora of China Balsamina hortensis Desportes (1816), not A. St.-Hilaire (1808). Plants annual, 60-100 cm tall. Stem erect, robust, base ca. 8 mm in diam., succulent, simple or branched, glabrous or laxly pubescent when young, with many fibrous roots, lower nodes swollen. Leaves alternate, sometimes lowest ones opposite; petiole 1-3 cm, adaxially shallowly sulcate, both sides with few pairs of stipitate glands; leaf blade lanceolate, narrowly elliptic, or oblanceolate, 4-12 × 1.5-3 cm, with a pair of sessile black glands toward base, both surfaces glabrous or sparsely pubescent, lateral veins 4-7 pairs, base cuneate, margin deeply serrate, apex acuminate. Inflorescences 1-flowered, or 2 or 3 flowers fascicled in leaf axils, without peduncles. Pedicels 2-2.5 cm, densely pubescent, bracteate at base; bracts linear. Flowers white, pink, or purple, simple or double petalous. Lateral sepals 2, ovate or ovate-lanceolate, 2-3 mm. Lower sepal deeply navicular, 13-19 × 4-8 mm, pubescent, abruptly narrowed into an incurved spur; spur 1-2.5 cm, slender. Upper petal orbicular, apex retuse, mucronulate, abaxial midvein narrowly carinate; lateral united petals shortly clawed, 2.3-2.5 cm, 2-lobed; basal lobes obovate-oblong, small; distal lobes suborbicular, apically retuse; auricule narrow. Stamens 5; filaments linear; anthers ovoid, apex obtuse. Ovary fusiform, densely pubescent. Capsule broadly fusiform, 1-2 cm, densely tomentose, narrowed at both ends. Seeds many, black-brown, globose, 1.5-3 mm in diam., tuberculate. Fl. Jul-Oct. 2n = 14*. The flowers and leaves are often used for coloring fingernails. The stem and seeds are used medicinally for promoting blood circulation and for relieving pain and sore throats. A common ornamental plant, widely cultivated in gardens and houses throughout China [native to SE Asia; cultivated worldwide]. --- On Mon, 8/4/08, David Toone <davidetoone wrote: David Toone <davidetoone Re: tou gu cao: 2 types? Chinese Medicine Monday, August 4, 2008, 7:17 PM Kath, I had a similiar question. I ordered some from Nuherbs in Oakland CA last year. They provided me with Speranskia. I asked them for more specifics on the particular species, but I never got a satisfactory answer. As a result, I only use it for externally for trauma in the same dosages as Impatiens Balsamina. David Toone, L.Ac. 441 Selborne Way Palmetto, GA 30268 On Aug 1, 2008, at 12:20 PM, wrote: > there seems to be 2 types used for tou gu cao (w-d-bi): > > Speranskia Tuberculata & Impatiens balsamina L > > can anyone provide info on differentiation in terms of actions and > indications? > > -- > > Oriental Medicine > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php? > page=categories & category= 14 & vendor= & product= 5554 & pg= > > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 yes, there are two species being used. according to tom leung of kamwo the 2 species have similar properties. seems weird to me. kath On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 10:56 PM, Jack Sweeney <mojavecowboywrote: > > > Kath, David: > > Chinese search engines distinguish these two types: > > tou gu cao is given as Turberculate Speranskia Herb ͸¹Ç²Ý or Garden Balsam > Stem > > while Balsam(Impatiens balsamina) is more often called > > Feng Xian Hua > > > ·ïÏÉ»¨ > although some websites call them by both names. Perhaps the confusion lies > therein. > > Jack > > Impatiens balsamina > Impatiens balsamina L. > ·ïÏÉ»¨ > > Description from Flora of China > Balsamina hortensis Desportes (1816), not A. St.-Hilaire (1808). > Plants annual, 60-100 cm tall. Stem erect, robust, base ca. 8 mm in diam., > succulent, simple or branched, glabrous or laxly pubescent when young, with > many fibrous roots, lower nodes swollen. Leaves alternate, sometimes lowest > ones opposite; petiole 1-3 cm, adaxially shallowly sulcate, both sides with > few pairs of stipitate glands; leaf blade lanceolate, narrowly elliptic, or > oblanceolate, 4-12 ¡Á 1.5-3 cm, with a pair of sessile black glands toward > base, both surfaces glabrous or sparsely pubescent, lateral veins 4-7 pairs, > base cuneate, margin deeply serrate, apex acuminate. Inflorescences > 1-flowered, or 2 or 3 flowers fascicled in leaf axils, without peduncles. > Pedicels 2-2.5 cm, densely pubescent, bracteate at base; bracts linear. > Flowers white, pink, or purple, simple or double petalous. Lateral sepals 2, > ovate or ovate-lanceolate, 2-3 mm. Lower sepal deeply navicular, 13-19 ¡Á 4-8 > mm, pubescent, abruptly narrowed into an incurved spur; spur 1-2.5 > cm, slender. Upper petal orbicular, apex retuse, mucronulate, abaxial > midvein narrowly carinate; lateral united petals shortly clawed, 2.3-2.5 cm, > 2-lobed; basal lobes obovate-oblong, small; distal lobes suborbicular, > apically retuse; auricule narrow. Stamens 5; filaments linear; anthers > ovoid, apex obtuse. Ovary fusiform, densely pubescent. Capsule broadly > fusiform, 1-2 cm, densely tomentose, narrowed at both ends. Seeds many, > black-brown, globose, 1.5-3 mm in diam., tuberculate. Fl. Jul-Oct. 2n = 14*. > > The flowers and leaves are often used for coloring fingernails. The stem > and seeds are used medicinally for promoting blood circulation and for > relieving pain and sore throats. > A common ornamental plant, widely cultivated in gardens and houses > throughout China [native to SE Asia; cultivated worldwide]. > > --- On Mon, 8/4/08, David Toone <davidetoone<davidetoone%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > David Toone <davidetoone <davidetoone%40gmail.com>> > Re: tou gu cao: 2 types? > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Monday, August 4, 2008, 7:17 PM > > Kath, > > I had a similiar question. I ordered some from Nuherbs in Oakland CA > last year. They provided me with Speranskia. I asked them for more > specifics on the particular species, but I never got a satisfactory > answer. As a result, I only use it for externally for trauma in the > same dosages as Impatiens Balsamina. > > David Toone, L.Ac. > 441 Selborne Way > Palmetto, GA 30268 > > On Aug 1, 2008, at 12:20 PM, wrote: > > > there seems to be 2 types used for tou gu cao (w-d-bi): > > > > Speranskia Tuberculata & Impatiens balsamina L > > > > can anyone provide info on differentiation in terms of actions and > > indications? > > > > -- > > > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > Available at Asheville Center for , or web order at: > > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php? > > page=categories & category= 14 & vendor= & product= 5554 & pg= > > > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Hi Kath and others on this thread, My experience in dealing with provincial agronomists in China is that they are focused on traditional functions of the herb for which many species may have a similar effect. For example, I'm thinking of Shi Hu for which I've since more than 10 species listed in a single materia medica. Your experience or your clinic's experience with an herb will dictate what organoleptic as well as species you prefer to use in a formula. Your patient may not be able to afford one of the species of genus Dendrobium, but they may easily be able to afford one of the species of genus Ephemerantha. If you have the experience to see that the lower cost herb will provide the desired benefit, then you can go forward with the formula. Clinical experience counts for a lot as well as understanding what typically turns up in a hospital pharmacy to represent that Chinese nomenclature. Western systematics of genus and species does not always trump (or perhaps rarely trumps or rarely expresses the nature of) the Chinese herbal nomenclature. An example that I'm thinking of here would be Wu Wei Zi which can rarely be " cultivated " with five flavors. So some Schisandra chinensis berries may be acceptable as a medicinal herb, while others may not function at all as Wu Wei Zi. I in no way represent Health Concerns, but I greatly honor and admire the formulas of Dr. Fung Fung ... who I think inspires Andy Gaeddert's work. Dr. Fung has a southern Chinese style of medicine using herbs from the herbal traditions in the southern provinces as well as from the northern provinces ... but the style is mainly a southern one. Many practitioners of merit have acknowledged Dr. Fung as an insightful and even an ingenious formulator, even when their training is from the north. I've taken him as a personal physician in the 1990s and early 2000s before his passing. I did so based on the advise of many practitioners of merit who advised me that I should experience this master first hand. Some of my practitioner friends and teachers here actually save Dr. Fung's formulas in their files after their personal visits to his office (or apartment). One can get into an academic debate about species nomenclature in one of Dr. Fung's formulas, but I suspect that the typical American TCM education is more oriented toward the northern Chinese traditions and the literature currently in use in places like Shanghai or Beijing. Despite being a college biology professor, Western systematics does not articulate well with CM nomenclature and functional substrates, IMHO. The provincial agronomists who interface with growers and hospital pharmacies have to deal with this and are equipped to do so. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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