Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Has anyone heard of bodytalk? I know if originated from Australia and is a mix of acupuncture and chiropractor theory. Attilio www.attiliodalberto.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Attillio See www.bodytalk.com.au <http://www.bodytalk.com.au/> Ray _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Attilio DAlberto Sunday, 26 October 2008 8:35 PM Chinese Medicine Bodytalk Has anyone heard of bodytalk? I know if originated from Australia and is a mix of acupuncture and chiropractor theory. Attilio www.attiliodalberto.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Attilio, I'm certified in Levels 1 and 2. That was about 8 years ago, so I'm very rusty with the skill set, but I can tell you the gist. John Veltheim, DC and L.Ac. ( founder of the Brisbane Acupuncture College in Australia), mixes applied kinesiology with a tapping technique he learned from an ayurvedic-type practitioner. The basic premise is that our innate intelligence is connected with the macrocosmic mind and that our body/mind/spirit can tell us things that our brain has a hard time filtering out. There are no subluxation adjustments or direct physical manual manipulation, other than using the deltoid muscle for a reflex response. Somewhere in your practice, you can muscle test using the body's wei qi / aura/ reiki-like field, whatever you call it and not have to do the gross muscle tests. You ask the mind/body matrix questions based on priority of imbalance and re-communicate it in the priority that it wants you to. The communication is the treatment and it happens on very subtle levels. Sounds like science-fiction, but it works. Veltheim is kind of a genius and the system works as good as your sensitivity and humility allows. Also, the more knowledge you have about the body works, the more efficient your questions will be for the patient's body. You don't have to ask these questions out loud, but the body will tell you through it's stress/ no stress responses. I think that skilled acupuncturists are already doing this on an intuitive level, but may or may not be verbalizing it. We are connecting with the heart when we take the radial pulse. The BodyTalk System works through many layers of interconnecting physiological and psychological networks in the priority that the mind/body wants to and ulitimately the macrocosm wants to. Based on yes/no questions and answers from muscle testing, you go through a " Windows software " like program to release deeper and deeper mis-communications between systems. That being said, it takes dedication and $ to go through the training www.bodytalksystems.com It's not for everyone. If you think Reiki is foo-foo, there's a lot of that in this system. Veltheim and his wife are big-time Reiki and Zen practitioners. Most of the practitioners are either acupuncturists, chiropractors, massage therapists or non professionals. It's a little hard for most of the public to accept it, because even acupuncture is still seen as a little left-field. So, it may be a modality that needs another decade before it can be accepted by the mainstream... You can say that is yellow/turquoise meme material in the spiral dynamics model (very integrational in its makeup): chttp:// images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.indorphyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2007\ /08/spiral_dynamics_model.jpg & imgrefurl=http://www.indorphyn.com/page/2/ & h=1365 & \ w=1036 & sz=265 & hl=en & start=1 & sig2=I3vlJvSTkOHJg2q3t8WIQA & um=1 & usg=__QNCYCS_W5jVqo\ vZVQkRXVknvDi4= & tbnid=gGO7eX-NVv4TaM: & tbnh=150 & tbnw=114 & ei=pnIESdeGCI6OsQPQzYiSC\ w & prev=/images%3Fq%3Dspiral%2Bdynamics%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG Hope this helps, K. On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 2:35 AM, < attiliodalberto wrote: > Has anyone heard of bodytalk? > > I know if originated from Australia and is a mix of acupuncture and > chiropractor theory. > > Attilio > www.attiliodalberto.com > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 The website is www.bodytalksystems.com. This modality is totally amazing, as I go twice a month for treatment, as do 2 of my children. The book is a quick read and gives a brief overview of the process. This process is so incredible, that MDs, DC as well as acupuncturists are giving up their " traditional " practices and doing BodyTalk instead. The stories I hear from seasoned practitioners of BodyTalk are nothing short of miraculous in most cases. Not only is chiro and acupuncture involved, but also cranial sacral protocols and other healing modalities. John Veltheim is the originator and is also an acupuncturist and a chiropractor, among many other things! Check it out, as it is has truly blown me away with its effectiveness. Judith A snippet from the website: The body is a complex and amazing mechanism, with each of its systems, cells and atoms in constant communication. Unfortunately, the stresses of everyday life can compromise these lines of communications or overload the energy circuits. To address this, the BodyTalk System provides a simple and effective form of therapy that allows the body’s systems to be re-synchronized so they can operate as nature intended – and effectively respond to injury and illness. The practitioner then taps the client on the sternum to “announce” the corrected energy flows to the rest of the body. This is beneficial because the heart is responsible for communicating the state of the body’s health to the rest of the body. Stimulating the heart by tapping the sternum forces the heart to store the corrected energy patterns in the body’s cellular memory. This means that the body will remember these changes after the treatment. The BodyTalk treatment protocol is straightforward and requires no diagnoses. The practitioner relies on the guidance of the body’s natural wisdom to not only locate the weakened lines of communication but also to find the proper order in which they are to be addressed. Just as the body heals a wound with a particular sequence of chemical reactions, the body wants to address all healing in a certain order. This concept is paramount in the balancing process to initiate the body’s ability to heal itself. The healing process usually follows rather quickly. : attiliodalberto: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 09:35:09 +0000TCM - Bodytalk Has anyone heard of bodytalk?I know if originated from Australia and is a mix of acupuncture andchiropractor theory.Attiliowww.attiliodalberto.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Bodytalk sounds like an interesting supplemental therapy for chiropractors and acupuncturists, but any acupuncturist who would give up their 'traditional' practice for something as relatively new and superficial as bodytalk must not really be versed in depth in their own training. It reminds me of the NAET fad that hit the profession a few years ago. On Oct 26, 2008, at 8:11 AM, Judith Pavluvcik wrote: > The website is www.bodytalksystems.com. > > This modality is totally amazing, as I go twice a month for > treatment, as do 2 of my children. The book is a quick read and > gives a brief overview of the process. > > This process is so incredible, that MDs, DC as well as > acupuncturists are giving up their " traditional " practices and doing > BodyTalk instead. The stories I hear from seasoned practitioners of > BodyTalk are nothing short of miraculous in most cases. > > Not only is chiro and acupuncture involved, but also cranial sacral > protocols and other healing modalities. > > John Veltheim is the originator and is also an acupuncturist and a > chiropractor, among many other things! > > Check it out, as it is has truly blown me away with its effectiveness. > > Judith > A snippet from the website: > > The body is a complex and amazing mechanism, with each of its > systems, cells and atoms in constant communication. Unfortunately, > the stresses of everyday life can compromise these lines of > communications or overload the energy circuits. To address this, the > BodyTalk System provides a simple and effective form of therapy that > allows the body’s systems to be re-synchronized so they can operate > as nature intended – and effectively respond to injury and illness. > > The practitioner then taps the client on the sternum to “announce” > the corrected energy flows to the rest of the body. This is > beneficial because the heart is responsible for communicating the > state of the body’s health to the rest of the body. Stimulating the > heart by tapping the sternum forces the heart to store the corrected > energy patterns in the body’s cellular memory. This means that the > body will remember these changes after the treatment. > The BodyTalk treatment protocol is straightforward and requires no > diagnoses. The practitioner relies on the guidance of the body’s > natural wisdom to not only locate the weakened lines of > communication but also to find the proper order in which they are to > be addressed. > > Just as the body heals a wound with a particular sequence of > chemical reactions, the body wants to address all healing in a > certain order. This concept is paramount in the balancing process to > initiate the body’s ability to heal itself. The healing process > usually follows rather quickly. > > > > : attiliodalberto > : Sun, 26 Oct 2008 09:35:09 +0000Bodytalk > > > > > Has anyone heard of bodytalk?I know if originated from Australia and > is a mix of acupuncture andchiropractor > theory.Attiliowww.attiliodalberto.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Seconding Z'ev's response. (But not attributing any of the tone below to him.) Something about the aura, so to speak, of utterances like: kind of a genius it takes dedication and $ totally amazing so incredible nothing short of miraculous in most cases blown me away a simple and effective form of therapy straightforward and requires no diagnoses raises red- or at least orange-flags. Especially the last item --- no diagnosis. More faith healing than a medical approach? Not that the experienced effectiveness is not often genuine. Reminds me of speaker at an early Pacific Symposium, with charming charisma, and a system that appeared attractive, up to a statement to the effect that it doesn't work with every client, just those who (the speaker) can resonate with, in some sense. Around that time, James Williams, teacher at PCOM, had impressed upon us what he considered an essential quality of a true medicine: That you can get it to work irrespective of your own momentary condition (up to par, in the dumps, or whatever), and irrespective of whether you're attracted to the case or not, whether the patient matches your expectations or not. Admittedly this viewpoint is a bit extreme, bordering on perhaps an impersonal, scientific sort of bias. (How to reconcile this with " resonance " , as Ted Kaptuck translates a key phrase in the neijing?) But it does represent a certain kind of value that I believe is useful to use somewhere in our self-monitoring awareness (as a profession). Perhaps a constructive approach would be in the direction of the test of time and tradition formation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Chris, " Kind of a genius " and " it takes dedication and $ " can also apply to dozens of Chinese medical practitioner over the centuries, including Jeffrey Yuen and the fact that it takes years of focused study and tuition $ or service to be able to apply Chinese medical principles attests to its greatness. I would be more wary of something like the American Reiki movement which could somehow be mastered within a weekend and $500, because of the transmission between so called " masters " and " students " . I do agree that " requires no diagnoses " is a false description of the Bodytalk system. You have to use your intellect as well as intuition to form a diagnosis. Diagnosis holds the meaning of a " knowing " " through knowledge " http://www.wordempire.blogspot.com/ The difference is that in the Bodytalk system, the gnosis comes from listening to the body (applied kinesiology), which is said to have an innate intelligence through communication with the macrocosm. This is more akin to the " gnosis " of the " gnostics " which was received directly from the God-head (macrocosm) to the person (microcosm), instead of having to pay 10% to confess your sins. I agree that anyone who would give up their medical practice to only apply Bodytalk is wasting their knowledge, because Bodytalk helps to integrate whatever you already know through a " software " like organization of many techniques into a cohesive modality. If you don't have much knowledge about the anatomy for instance, you can't ask the pertinent questions in Bodytalk to get to deeper healing. If you don't know anything about acupuncture or classical theory, then you are limited by what you don't know, not by what you do know. If you come in with a lot of knowledge and a keen sense of investigation and sensitivity, then you can go much farther than someone who has not put in the difficult years into acquiring that knowledge. I think that more importantly to debate/ expand on are two ideas that are integral aspects of Bodytalk that are not as emphasized in TCM: In Bodytalk, the first thing you have to do is get the person's permission on 4 levels (1. subtle soul level (hun/po), 2. emotional body, 3. mental body and 4. physical body. If you don't have permission, you have to get permission from all of these levels. Furthermore, the modality that a practitioner chooses may not be the one that the patient's soul/emotional/mental/physical body wants at that time. For instance, not every body wants to be poked with needles all of the time. Not every body wants herbs or specifically certain herbs in certain dosages. Using applied kinesiology can help to get more specificity in your practice. (Of course, if you don't believe in its efficacy, you won't practice it anyway). There are lines in the Chinese classics which say that you have to connect to the patient's shen first... Ling shu Chap 8.. 1st lines of the Jia yi jing. Secondly, there is a priority in the modalities and the acupoints or manual therapy locations that the patient wants to be treated with. For instance, it may be more efficacious to needle ST 36 before LV 3, because the body doesn't have enough Qi or Blood to move around or it may be better to needle LV 3 before ST 36 because the stagnant Qi/Blood needs to be moved out before new fresh Qi and Blood can be generated.... (This is a very generic example). What Bodytalk contends is that the patient's body (innate intelligence) knows what to do better than the practitioner's intellect can assume. There is a humility and respect inherent in this understanding. Of anything that I learned in the 1st 2 modules, I think that *Permission*and *Priority* are 2 elements that can be integrated more into our own practices, no matter what modalities we practice. K. On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 5:01 AM, < wrote: > Seconding Z'ev's response. (But not attributing any of the tone below to > > him.) > > Something about the aura, so to speak, of utterances like: > kind of a genius > it takes dedication and $ > totally amazing > so incredible > > nothing short of miraculous in most cases > blown me away > a simple and effective form of therapy > straightforward and requires no diagnoses > > raises red- or at least orange-flags. Especially the last item --- no > diagnosis. More faith healing than a medical approach? > > Not that the experienced effectiveness is not often genuine. > > Reminds me of speaker at an early Pacific Symposium, with charming > charisma, and a system that appeared attractive, up to a statement to > the effect that it doesn't work with every client, just those who (the > speaker) can resonate with, in some sense. > > Around that time, James Williams, teacher at PCOM, had impressed upon us > what he considered an essential quality of a true medicine: That you can > get it to work irrespective of your own momentary condition (up to par, > in the dumps, or whatever), and irrespective of whether you're attracted > to the case or not, whether the patient matches your expectations or > not. Admittedly this viewpoint is a bit extreme, bordering on perhaps an > impersonal, scientific sort of bias. (How to reconcile this with > " resonance " , as Ted Kaptuck translates a key phrase in the neijing?) But > it does represent a certain kind of value that I believe is useful to > use somewhere in our self-monitoring awareness (as a profession). > > Perhaps a constructive approach would be in the direction of the test of > time and tradition formation. > > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Don't knock it until you try it. I have seen some AMAZING and quick resolution of problems with this modality. I wouldn't give up acupuncture or any other protocol I spent my time learning because not everyone needs the same methods. But it is well worth your time to learn this protocol. Kimberly Marin AP, RD Acupuncture Physician and Registered Dietitian Davie, FL www.kimberlymarin. com Chinese Medicine , < wrote: > > Seconding Z'ev's response. (But not attributing any of the tone below to > him.) > > Something about the aura, so to speak, of utterances like: > kind of a genius > it takes dedication and $ > totally amazing > so incredible > nothing short of miraculous in most cases > blown me away > a simple and effective form of therapy > straightforward and requires no diagnoses > > raises red- or at least orange-flags. Especially the last item --- no > diagnosis. More faith healing than a medical approach? > > Not that the experienced effectiveness is not often genuine. > > Reminds me of speaker at an early Pacific Symposium, with charming > charisma, and a system that appeared attractive, up to a statement to > the effect that it doesn't work with every client, just those who (the > speaker) can resonate with, in some sense. > > Around that time, James Williams, teacher at PCOM, had impressed upon us > what he considered an essential quality of a true medicine: That you can > get it to work irrespective of your own momentary condition (up to par, > in the dumps, or whatever), and irrespective of whether you're attracted > to the case or not, whether the patient matches your expectations or > not. Admittedly this viewpoint is a bit extreme, bordering on perhaps an > impersonal, scientific sort of bias. (How to reconcile this with > " resonance " , as Ted Kaptuck translates a key phrase in the neijing?) But > it does represent a certain kind of value that I believe is useful to > use somewhere in our self-monitoring awareness (as a profession). > > Perhaps a constructive approach would be in the direction of the test of > time and tradition formation. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 John, You're right. I've been through a several of such " bright faith " phases of study / quasi apprenticeships. Until you've really worked at it for years ( " verified faith " ), you can't really truly judge the value. One of these (learning " medical " aura-reading & treatment with Robert Jaffe, MD) left me with a prejudice as to Reiki stuff. Jaffe considered it a method of " alien war-lords from a distant planet " . In the end, his system itself seemed to me a bit alien. AK also triggers reactions. Starting with running into Dr. Ommura (as in the O-ring), at the first Pacific Symposium (1989). He was suffering from heavy jet lag, so was particular ornery, and repeatedly put-down the Chinese (for wrong point locations). (I was gung-ho TCM then.) A year or two later, we had training sessions, from a couple of fellow students in AK (O-ring technique), and I felt it was faked the whole way. There is information there in such methods, but all instances (many) I've witnessed (studied and been subject to in diagnostic-treatment sessions) it seemed, at best, a healing practice more than a medical one. Your " priority " point is well-taken. And is a critical skill. Discernment along these lines, imo, is vital to successful practice, and can only ultimately be learned for oneself (even on the basis of whatever depth of traditional / oral study and apprenticeship). The " permission " issue is more fuzzy. The 1-2-3-4 level ordering and names could be debated. The relationship between " getting the person's permission " and the " resonance " that the classics (and Jeffery Yuen among many others) teach (and Ted Kaptchuk attempted to interpret –- taped lecture ca. 1990) is not self-obvious. I've encountered patients who, for instance, won't take a prescribed herbal bottle or package (raw) until they've held it in their hand and felt its " vibrations " . Have to respect that in practice, in the sense of allowing them their own decision. Thanks for the feedback, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 I'm pretty sure a goodly number of youse out there know about Dr. Mat Van Beschoten (sp?)here in So Cal. Anyway, he's regarded as a bit of an herbal genius. It seems he also derives a diagnosis from applied kinesiology. He has an interesting O-ring application using different fingers. It turns out the the biophotonic emissions from the fingers differ and he uses this knowledge to diagnose and uses applied kinesiology again to determine the appropriate herbs. In speaking with one practitioner, he began getting much better results once applying these methods. Patients tend to respond positively, especially those with excess conditions. Bodytalk strikes me as being similar. Since it applies tapping and I've experienced better, faster, and deeper results with EFT than with needles and herbs, I've little doubt about this technique's merits. Of course, needles and herbs work wonders as does my inhaler. The thing that has fascinated me most about Bodytalk is the universe of queries posed to the body. Since Chinese medicine is v. keen on discerning levels at which disorders occur, I find this technique a darn fascinating elaboration upon the concept while providing a " brain-free " mode of detection. Yang-chu Higgins, L.Ac, EFT-ADV Chinese Medicine , " " <johnkokko wrote: > > Chris, > > " Kind of a genius " and " it takes dedication and $ " can also apply to dozens > of Chinese medical practitioner over the centuries, including Jeffrey Yuen > and the fact that it takes years of focused study and tuition $ or service > to be able to apply Chinese medical principles attests to its greatness. I > would be more wary of something like the American Reiki movement which could > somehow be mastered within a weekend and $500, because of the transmission > between so called " masters " and " students " . > I do agree that " requires no diagnoses " is a false description of the > Bodytalk system. You have to use your intellect as well as intuition to > form a diagnosis. Diagnosis holds the meaning of a " knowing " " through > knowledge " http://www.wordempire.blogspot.com/ > The difference is that in the Bodytalk system, the gnosis comes from > listening to the body (applied kinesiology), which is said to have an innate > intelligence through communication with the macrocosm. This is more akin to > the " gnosis " of the " gnostics " which was received directly from the God-head > (macrocosm) to the person (microcosm), instead of having to pay 10% to > confess your sins. > > I agree that anyone who would give up their medical practice to only apply > Bodytalk is wasting their knowledge, because Bodytalk helps to integrate > whatever you already know through a " software " like organization of many > techniques into a cohesive modality. If you don't have much knowledge > about the anatomy for instance, you can't ask the pertinent questions in > Bodytalk to get to deeper healing. If you don't know anything about > acupuncture or classical theory, then you are limited by what you don't > know, not by what you do know. If you come in with a lot of knowledge and a > keen sense of investigation and sensitivity, then you can go much farther > than someone who has not put in the difficult years into acquiring that > knowledge. > > I think that more importantly to debate/ expand on are two ideas that are > integral aspects of Bodytalk that are not as emphasized in TCM: > In Bodytalk, the first thing you have to do is get the person's permission > on 4 levels (1. subtle soul level (hun/po), 2. emotional body, 3. mental > body and 4. physical body. If you don't have permission, you have to get > permission from all of these levels. Furthermore, the modality that a > practitioner chooses may not be the one that the patient's > soul/emotional/mental/physical body wants at that time. For instance, not > every body wants to be poked with needles all of the time. Not every body > wants herbs or specifically certain herbs in certain dosages. Using applied > kinesiology can help to get more specificity in your practice. (Of course, > if you don't believe in its efficacy, you won't practice it anyway). There > are lines in the Chinese classics which say that you have to connect to the > patient's shen first... Ling shu Chap 8.. 1st lines of the Jia yi jing. > > Secondly, there is a priority in the modalities and the acupoints or manual > therapy locations that the patient wants to be treated with. > For instance, it may be more efficacious to needle ST 36 before LV 3, > because the body doesn't have enough Qi or Blood to move around or it may be > better to needle LV 3 before ST 36 because the stagnant Qi/Blood needs to be > moved out before new fresh Qi and Blood can be generated.... (This is a > very generic example). What Bodytalk contends is that the patient's body > (innate intelligence) knows what to do better than the practitioner's > intellect can assume. There is a humility and respect inherent in this > understanding. > > Of anything that I learned in the 1st 2 modules, I think that *Permission*and > *Priority* are 2 elements that can be integrated more into our own > practices, no matter what modalities we practice. > > K. > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 5:01 AM, < wrote: > > > Seconding Z'ev's response. (But not attributing any of the tone below to > > > > him.) > > > > Something about the aura, so to speak, of utterances like: > > kind of a genius > > it takes dedication and $ > > totally amazing > > so incredible > > > > nothing short of miraculous in most cases > > blown me away > > a simple and effective form of therapy > > straightforward and requires no diagnoses > > > > raises red- or at least orange-flags. Especially the last item --- no > > diagnosis. More faith healing than a medical approach? > > > > Not that the experienced effectiveness is not often genuine. > > > > Reminds me of speaker at an early Pacific Symposium, with charming > > charisma, and a system that appeared attractive, up to a statement to > > the effect that it doesn't work with every client, just those who (the > > speaker) can resonate with, in some sense. > > > > Around that time, James Williams, teacher at PCOM, had impressed upon us > > what he considered an essential quality of a true medicine: That you can > > get it to work irrespective of your own momentary condition (up to par, > > in the dumps, or whatever), and irrespective of whether you're attracted > > to the case or not, whether the patient matches your expectations or > > not. Admittedly this viewpoint is a bit extreme, bordering on perhaps an > > impersonal, scientific sort of bias. (How to reconcile this with > > " resonance " , as Ted Kaptuck translates a key phrase in the neijing?) But > > it does represent a certain kind of value that I believe is useful to > > use somewhere in our self-monitoring awareness (as a profession). > > > > Perhaps a constructive approach would be in the direction of the test of > > time and tradition formation. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > aka Mu bong Lim > Father of Bhakti > > The Four Reliances: > Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. > As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the > meaning that underlies them. > Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but > rely upon the definitive meaning. > And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary > consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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